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  1. #1
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    Fallen Heroes: should an adult just quit believing?

    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    Will trade for some chicken.

  2. #2
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    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.

  3. #3
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    I know what you're saying. It turns out Hulkamania and the 24" pythons were built with steroids. Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse turned out to be a dank x-rated theater where he choked his chicken. And George Michael wasn't singing about chicks when he said, "I will be your father figure".

  4. #4
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    know what you're saying. It turns out Hulkamania and the 24" pythons were built with steroids. Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse turned out to be a dank x-rated theater where he choked his chicken. And George Michael wasn't singing about chicks when he said, "I will be your father figure".
    I just laughed my ass off, you just got repped.
    When the **** did we get ice cream?

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    You can alway's count on a few things, the Easter Bunny, Santa and Lance. Never quit believing.

  6. #6
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    One of the rudest things I said growing up was "so". I said this in response to the news that one of my teammates was getting a full ride to play football with the top team in the country. He went on to play pro ball. He was that good. The person I said "so" was the boy's grandfather at the grocery store. He was a cashier.

    While I have thought about this from time to time later in life, i realize i was wrong. But, I could justify "so" as being a measure of humanness. If we prop people to heavenly levels, we will be disappointed. "So" Lance doped. The world should not end. We should not be jaded either. I think we should say, "so" he is human.
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  7. #7
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    Exactly. So. He is still a damn good cyclist and in my mind he is the winner of those 7 tours. I DON'T CARE IF HIS TEAM PLAYED BY THE RULEBOOK. Many didn't although probably not to that level.

  8. #8
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    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VcjzHMhBtf0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    What???
    QUOTE from MTBR.COM: You have given Brewtality too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Strongarm View Post
    You can alway's count on a few things, the Easter Bunny, Santa and Lance. Never quit believing.
    I like your apostrophe.
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  11. #11
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    I still believe -
    that Bill Clinton 'did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewensky'
    and
    OJ didn't do that sh!t!!

    I'm starting to believe that Lance doped.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker View Post
    What???
    Porkstacker,
    is that you in Schumaker's helmet?
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  13. #13
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    I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky.

  14. #14
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    I forget who said it but here it
    is. Show me a hero and I'll show
    you a bum.

  15. #15
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    Heros are dead.

    The rest of us are just trying to make it another day....

    Lance and friends doped, shocker. There's money involved, need we say more?. What I'm really waiting for is for it to fall back to the real source of the issue, Trek, the USPS and all the other money people who directed the teams to do whatever was required to bring home the victories for their fancy, corporate trophy cases.

    To this day, Trek makes bank on Lances wins. When do the chickens come home to roost? It's like rounding up all the foot soldiers in a mafia raid, and leaving the Don alone, since he didn't "have anything to do with it".
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  16. #16
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    I'm too jaded with life to have heroes anymore. I'll just suffer through until sweet ass oblivion. There's people I respect and look up to, but heroes? **** that, I'll leave them to the comic books of yore.
    Last edited by monzie; 10-11-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  17. #17
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    Heros...well heck yea...

    I see heros in every one of those boys in uniform...some don't get to come home.
    Ride Hard or Ride Home Alone.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Heros are dead.
    Not really.

    Instead Of Surgery, Man Pedals Off The Pounds : NPR

    People who remind me to STFU-and-pedal-because-you-officially-have-no-excuses inspire me to the fullest extent.


  19. #19
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    We are surrounded by heroes everyday, they are among us, everywhere you look, everywhere you go. Quit looking up on the pedestal and you will find real heroes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    That's what I was thinking.....

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Not really.

    Instead Of Surgery, Man Pedals Off The Pounds : NPR

    People who remind me to STFU-and-pedal-because-you-officially-have-no-excuses inspire me to the fullest extent.

    I love that story. There is more than one hero in it.


    BTW--I love that while I'm reading this thread, there is an ad for some energy supplement endorsed by Lance on the side bar. How clever MTBR

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Not really.
    Folks that inspire, do awesome stuff, what have you, are great, and their acts should never be diminished or looked down upon.

    "Be a healthy hero" is a local ad campaign for better eating habits. I rest my case, Madison Ave owns "hero". Everyone is a hero for something nowadays.

    I guess I look at people differently, but doing something because it's the right thing to do, no matter how tough, doesn't make you a hero.

    Dying doing it does.
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  23. #23
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    I love that literal pedal your a.. off story. He would fit here nicely. Maybe somebody could send him an invitation.
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  24. #24
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    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.


    I was with you until you said teachers, in my area they are mostly the scum of the earth. Have put a business out of business with their mafia tactics. Definitley not in the "Hero" category.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    I'm too jaded with life to have heroes anymore. I'll just suffer through until sweet ass oblivion. There's people I respect and look up to, but heroes? **** that, I'll leave them to the comic books of yore.
    aw c'mon monzie, what about folks like anna politskovkaya:

    Anna Politkovskaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    although i do agree w/ you, reading the news does increase the jaded factor substantially....
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Folks that inspire, do awesome stuff, what have you, are great, and their acts should never be diminished or looked down upon.

    "Be a healthy hero" is a local ad campaign for better eating habits. I rest my case, Madison Ave owns "hero". Everyone is a hero for something nowadays.

    I guess I look at people differently, but doing something because it's the right thing to do, no matter how tough, doesn't make you a hero.

    Dying doing it does.
    Nah, I got you... and agree. People throw around the word a lot - some people become heroes by default just because of what they chose to do for a living.

  27. #27
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    I stopped believing in professional sports and looking up to any professional athlete when I was 15 years old. Here's an excerpt from another discussion I had in another thread. Sorry for the cross-post - it seems relevant:

    "It occurred to me at age 15 that a competitive series with an arbitrary class and points system is a manipulative construct designed to enrich a group of people at the expense of unwitting competitors and fans.

    If you are truly interested in finding out who the best is, then all competitors should ride identical bicycles in one class like Desgrange insisted on for the 1930 Tour de France. But the commercial interests wouldn't have it."

    The only reason professional sports exist is to sell stuff and allow rich people to play a game using real people. It is all a manipulation construct.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    As a baseball fan, I completely understand. Baseball was my escape growing up in a not so great neighbor hood and during Oilbust where everyone lost their jobs. The neighbor hood kids and I would play stick ball in the fields aftr lunch and watch the games in the afternoon. As time changed so did baseball, players went on strike and the Series canceled etc. I was really broken hearted about it. Then to make things worse, they accused all my childhood heroes one by one for steroid abuse. I felt like the kid asking Shoeless Joe Jackson, "Say it Ain't So!" Then I read Juiced by Consaco and some o the court evidence and realized, they all juiced. I swore off Baseball for years. I don't know what brought me back but I started watching it again several years back.

    If I learned anything from the steroids whether it's Biking or baseball, and that these people are human and make mistakes.

  29. #29
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    as a fellow cancer survivor, it did inspire me that he was able to return to professional sports after treatment for a very aggressive form of the disease.

    with that said, the report left little doubt in my mind that he's been doping for a very long time.

    but that's not what bothers me about the situation. just about all of his competitors from that time period have either been caught or admitted to doping (or both) so I was not deluded into thinking he was actually clean. what bothers me about it is the way he aggressively covered it up and vilified others to prevent the information from coming out. that, I think, is worse than the actual doping.

  30. #30
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    I only look up to people like Sal Khan.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    what bothers me about it is the way he aggressively covered it up and vilified others to prevent the information from coming out. that, I think, is worse than the actual doping.
    Yup. I'm a "most everyone in the sport was/is doping" opinion guy from early on. I actually didn't/don't fault Armstrong for the doping. In fact, for a time, I justified it by the work he was doing for cancer. But as the years wore on, and Armstrong kept trying to destroy people, I began to come to the realization he was a dick.

  32. #32
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    i think the word hero is meaningless to me. I've never had a hero. No one I'm so in awe with as to be forever changed. I've also been called a sociopath...

    I'm not bothered at all by doping. They all do it. How can you blame them.
    And anyway I want to see either a bunch of guys that eat meat and vegetables and pasta and no protein powder, creatine and all the rest of the snakeoil from GNC. Nothing.
    Or I want to see the absolute most science and willpower can pull out of the human body.
    Thats what those guys do. the most badass riders taken to the limit by drugs. Awesome.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard View Post
    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.


    I was with you until you said teachers, in my area they are mostly the scum of the earth. Have put a business out of business with their mafia tactics. Definitley not in the "Hero" category.
    Naw, real heros are Marines, soldiers, firefighters, cops, and people who actually put their lives on the line. Or they can be people who endure great sufffering for their beliefs. But school teachers? Nothing heroic about them. They're paid, they do their work.

    We've sort of debased the word "hero" lately.

    Atheletes? Heck, they get payed to play children's games. Seriously.

  34. #34
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    Lance Armstrong knew the rules and decided to break them. He is a coward and his entire career is a sham.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I guess I look at people differently, but doing something because it's the right thing to do, no matter how tough, doesn't make you a hero.
    It makes you a man with integrity and honor, qualities that aren't focused on enough these days. Instead it's productivity and ambition.
    Dying doing it does.
    I would say that makes you a martyr.
    "Be a healthy hero" is a local ad campaign for better eating habits. I rest my case, Madison Ave owns "hero". Everyone is a hero for something nowadays.
    Now THIS is a hero!


  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    If you really knew EVERYTHING about the so called "heros" in history, I doubt we could ever call anyone a hero. We base this usually on one thing or one facet, and ignore the rest or are unable to know the rest. In today's technological age, we are able to know more than ever, so we find out more of the bad. I don't think there are many, if any, true heros. Most if the time it's us trying to rationalize a bad situation or someone using their genetic superiority.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  37. #37
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    Everyone needs inspirational people to look up too....unfortunately they are fewer and fewer around these days. I feel sorry for the youth that aren't able to process this as well as us adults.
    Adios,
    "Chaco"

    Lots of kids tell me they want to be firefighters when they grow up, I tell them they can't do both!

  38. #38
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    You can't take an average bike rider, give him performance enhancing drugs, and have him win the Tour de France. All of those guys were really, really good at what they did. But when you think about it, they were mostly good at suffering in pursuit of winning a pointless bike race. That's cool, I guess. But calling them heroes is a stretch.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29 View Post
    You can't take an average bike rider, give him performance enhancing drugs, and have him win the Tour de France. All of those guys were really, really good at what they did. But when you think about it, they were mostly good at suffering in pursuit of winning a pointless bike race. That's cool, I guess. But calling them heroes is a stretch.
    But calling them cheating, worthless D-bags is in order. Anyone who cheats is a horrible person who should burn in the vast pits of Hell.
    Last edited by wmac; 10-11-2012 at 10:29 PM.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  40. #40
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    The thoughts expressed herein about what constitutes a hero in modern society are excellent. First of all, to give a bit more orientation to my use of the term "hero", I bought into the scenario of cancer- survivor- turned- Tour- winner as worthy of the designation. Cancer survivors have taken a journey through a living hell and are deserving of being called a hero. As to teachers, I was thinking of teachers I know who gave up economic gain and chose to teach. That is a noble choice in today's world, but perhaps you are right of not truly "heroic". I absolutely agree with those comments that men and women who served in the military are worthy of that status. And, let me add the local cop on the beat to that list.

    To continue, I believe there is a dual definition of the term hero, one used in a childlike, fantasy application by children, and that use of the term by an adult, if he/she so chooses, after all the fantasies have fallen away. Despite some pretty funny comments made to my first post, my use the term is not based on worship or idolization. Rather, it's based upon the fact that as a result of living life, I come to realize that I have my limitations which make me an Ordinary Joe in many ways. And that's cool, as that is part of the maturation process to accepting your limitations and enjoying the life you are capable of creating to the best of your abilities.

    But, when someone makes supreme sacrifices I know I could not make, or prevails over incredible odds with a positive spirit about life entact, then, in my world, there has to be a way to characterize that person, and hero status is the way I chose to do so. Soldiers who are recognized for heroic feats often say they were just trying to survive in one piece, not win a medal. And that is the ultimate to me - perform a heroic feat and then put themselves down.

    So, to return to Lance and George, I was deceived. As someone said, they are cheats, so despite their natural elite abilities to suffer and excel on a bike, I'm hitting the Delete Button on those guys.
    Will trade for some chicken.

  41. #41
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    Yeah, cancer sucks. But just because you survived it doesn't mean you are automatically a hero. What you do with yourself afterward has a huge part of that.

    Lance's charity helped a lot of people. He provided inspiration to a lot of cancer patients over the years. By many accounts, that would qualify him for the title of hero. But there is this nagging issue of the way he achieved that. It won't change the fact that he was fun to watch but I think calling him a hero in light of that is a bit of a stretch

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    I have always thought that treating someone as a "hero" simply because they are recognized as "the best" at something demeans the value of the term "hero".

    The folks supporting the bike dude on the CX bike are bigger heroes than someone who wins the TDF but does nothing for their community.

    If Lance is/was a hero (not weighing in on that), it should be judged more on his work with Livestrong, NOT what he did on a bike.
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    Hero? guess that's in the eye of the beholder, but as far as Lance....think if the USADA and everyone else who's responsible for getting the race ready can't get their sh!t together enough to ensure that all the racers are clean at the start of race day, they shouldn't be allowed to call the racers on it after it's done and won, or postpone the race until they can ensure it's legit. In hindsight we can see that there's no clear decision after the fact, and only the sport suffers because sore losers are allowed to run a muck.
    My .02
    Round and round we go

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    Why not? You scared of the ghey?

    I have friends I idolize, and I have friends that idolize me, its flattering, and makes me smile, idolize someone today and pass the stoke

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    Hmm, lots to say but I will try to keep it short and sweet. There are hero's all around us. I can start with parents. Whome bust their tails every day at work and support their kids in all that they do. Staying home with them when they are sick and attending all the school functions and whatever else to be there for those children.
    Police and firemen. Putting themselves in harms way to help people in danger. Comming when they are called knowing that things could turn out bad.
    Military. They go where they are sent. Again knowing that things could get ugly. If they are sent most likely it already is.
    So far all these people do all this willingly.
    Sports hero's that is a whole different ball of wax. It still comes down to playing a game. They are paid tons of money to do some extrodinary physical act that not just anyone can do.We look up to these people because they can do things we "normal" people can only dream about. Should we call them hero's? No I don't believe so. Held to a highter standard sure because of the things they can do. We expect them to do it clean. We are told they do it clean so when one gets caught or in this case people claim they saw him do it it crushes our view of them.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    Yeah, men suck, why would you idolize them?

  47. #47
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    Hero is an over used term and should NEVER be mixed up with sports.
    A in my books is somebody that works their whole life for the good of others expecting nothing in return except for a rich n full heart.
    A hero is somebody that gives others life, or risks their own life or standing for another human being or animal or the earth.
    A hero is a person that against all odds stands up and fights for what he believes in even when he will be shunned for it and even knows that he will be standing alone to take up the fight.
    A hero is somebody that in the face of massive adversity fights an honest fight,not for himself but for others.
    Or a hero is somebody that overcomes great personal tradgedy, addiction, health or adversity and moves on to make a difference in life.
    To a child a sportsman might be a hero, but as you grow older n face real life adversity and sacrifice you quickly find out that sportsman dont cut it as heros.
    Nobody thats a sportsman is doin it for others, they do it for themselves, yes they have many great qualities to admire n respect and motivate, but they aint heros....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  48. #48
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    Lots of good comments both pro and con. I think rather than argue whether or not Lance was a hero, we should argue whether he was/is a champion.

    Champion : Noun: A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.

    Most of us will never understand to any real degree what Lance and people like him endure or what they give up to reach their level of success.

    To perform at that level two things are required.
    1) You must eat, sleep, and $hit your pursuit. You dream it, work it, live it. Success at that level requires the sacrifice of everything and everyone else in your life.

    2) You seek out and take advantage of every edge. Most of us will never throw our leg over a bike anything like the bikes Lance rides, or wear the gear he wears. He is always meticulously prepared. We can't afford the nutrition he takes advantage of. We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has. We will never have the pressure of managing employees, sponsors, huge budgets, the media. Most of all, we can't withstand the pain of endless hours in the saddle, pushing our bodies into zones of effort only a few athletes have ever visited.

    Experts will affirm that any advantage provided to Lance by doping was minuscule. Many believe the results of those races would be the same whether Lance doped or not. It would have been more devastating to his race results to make his bike a pound heavier, his tires a little more slow rolling, or change his diet to something like the things we eat before a race. Losers can always find some way to explain why they finish second. Haters should realize diminishing the efforts of others doesn't make you a winner.

    I know some will argue that Lance was expected to seek every "legal" edge, but cheating crosses the line. You definitely have a point. Lance did cheat, but it seems unfair to me that his samples were treated differently than everyone else's. If a set of standards is required to judge the conduct of athletes, it seems to me the same equal standard should apply to governing boards. Only Lance had samples taken and stored with the intent of developing future techniques to catch him cheating. How many of you could withstand that kind of scrutiny in your profession?

    Stripping Lance of his titles doesn't change the fact that on those race days, Lance "defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition". Lance may not be a hero, but in my mind he remains a champion.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Lots of good comments both pro and con. I think rather than argue whether or not Lance was a hero, we should argue whether he was/is a champion.

    Champion : Noun: A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.

    Most of us will never understand to any real degree what Lance and people like him endure or what they give up to reach their level of success.

    To perform at that level two things are required.
    1) You must eat, sleep, and $hit your pursuit. You dream it, work it, live it. Success at that level requires the sacrifice of everything and everyone else in your life.

    2) You seek out and take advantage of every edge. Most of us will never throw our leg over a bike anything like the bikes Lance rides, or wear the gear he wears. He is always meticulously prepared. We can't afford the nutrition he takes advantage of. We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has. We will never have the pressure of managing employees, sponsors, huge budgets, the media. Most of all, we can't withstand the pain of endless hours in the saddle, pushing our bodies into zones of effort only a few athletes have ever visited.

    Experts will affirm that any advantage provided to Lance by doping was minuscule. Many believe the results of those races would be the same whether Lance doped or not. It would have been more devastating to his race results to make his bike a pound heavier, his tires a little more slow rolling, or change his diet to something like the things we eat before a race. Losers can always find some way to explain why they finish second. Haters should realize diminishing the efforts of others doesn't make you a winner.

    I know some will argue that Lance was expected to seek every "legal" edge, but cheating crosses the line. You definitely have a point. Lance did cheat, but it seems unfair to me that his samples were treated differently than everyone else's. If a set of standards is required to judge the conduct of athletes, it seems to me the same equal standard should apply to governing boards. Only Lance had samples taken and stored with the intent of developing future techniques to catch him cheating. How many of you could withstand that kind of scrutiny in your profession?

    Stripping Lance of his titles doesn't change the fact that on those race days, Lance "defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition". Lance may not be a hero, but in my mind he remains a champion.
    Nice post and i agree with a few things youve said but you will find NO experts to argue that Lance gained little or no advantage from doping.
    Lance would have been a nobody if it wasnt for dope, he was a back end rider in the pack before he started doping, Phil Ligget who is a gun judge of a good cyclist said lance never stood out one iota in his early years.
    To claim that ''any advantage that Lance gained from doping was MINISCULE'' is boarderlining on the ridiculous and naive, dope bought him from a very average rider to a great rider...
    Lance is not a champion, hes a cheat and a liar and bully.
    To claim his advantages from doping was miniscule is totally ridiculous and maybe the most bizzare and crazy thing ive read on here in the whole LA affair...

    And to say the results would have been the same regardless even if he never doped is totally ridiculous, can you please put up the links that support your argument, i just cant get my head around your post.
    cheers
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  50. #50
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    Lopaka -
    Excellent words - fully agree!

    Tone's -
    In his early days, Lance was a Tri-Athlete with a lot of swimming upper body weight. During his bout with cancer, he lost all that extra weight and came back training specifically as a bike rider.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    What is ‘doping’ anyway?

    All these guys are going to try and get right up to the ‘line’ with all methods that give them maximum advantage. Diet, sleeping in an altitude chamber, drugs, etc. If you go a little over the line and get caught, suddenly you are evil? I bet every one of these guys have crossed over the line more than once…

    I’m always amazed how close the TDF ends up. Wasn’t the finish with LeMond only 7 secs after 2000 miles?

    Anyway - anyone who just finishes the TDF gets a hats off from me!

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