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  1. #1
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    Fallen Heroes: should an adult just quit believing?

    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    Will trade for some chicken.

  2. #2
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    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.

  3. #3
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    I know what you're saying. It turns out Hulkamania and the 24" pythons were built with steroids. Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse turned out to be a dank x-rated theater where he choked his chicken. And George Michael wasn't singing about chicks when he said, "I will be your father figure".

  4. #4
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    know what you're saying. It turns out Hulkamania and the 24" pythons were built with steroids. Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse turned out to be a dank x-rated theater where he choked his chicken. And George Michael wasn't singing about chicks when he said, "I will be your father figure".
    I just laughed my ass off, you just got repped.
    When the **** did we get ice cream?

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    You can alway's count on a few things, the Easter Bunny, Santa and Lance. Never quit believing.

  6. #6
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    One of the rudest things I said growing up was "so". I said this in response to the news that one of my teammates was getting a full ride to play football with the top team in the country. He went on to play pro ball. He was that good. The person I said "so" was the boy's grandfather at the grocery store. He was a cashier.

    While I have thought about this from time to time later in life, i realize i was wrong. But, I could justify "so" as being a measure of humanness. If we prop people to heavenly levels, we will be disappointed. "So" Lance doped. The world should not end. We should not be jaded either. I think we should say, "so" he is human.
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  7. #7
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    Exactly. So. He is still a damn good cyclist and in my mind he is the winner of those 7 tours. I DON'T CARE IF HIS TEAM PLAYED BY THE RULEBOOK. Many didn't although probably not to that level.

  8. #8
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    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/VcjzHMhBtf0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    What???
    QUOTE from MTBR.COM: You have given Brewtality too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance Strongarm View Post
    You can alway's count on a few things, the Easter Bunny, Santa and Lance. Never quit believing.
    I like your apostrophe.
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  11. #11
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    I still believe -
    that Bill Clinton 'did not have sex with that woman, Monica Lewensky'
    and
    OJ didn't do that sh!t!!

    I'm starting to believe that Lance doped.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker View Post
    What???
    Porkstacker,
    is that you in Schumaker's helmet?
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  13. #13
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    I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky.

  14. #14
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    I forget who said it but here it
    is. Show me a hero and I'll show
    you a bum.

  15. #15
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    Heros are dead.

    The rest of us are just trying to make it another day....

    Lance and friends doped, shocker. There's money involved, need we say more?. What I'm really waiting for is for it to fall back to the real source of the issue, Trek, the USPS and all the other money people who directed the teams to do whatever was required to bring home the victories for their fancy, corporate trophy cases.

    To this day, Trek makes bank on Lances wins. When do the chickens come home to roost? It's like rounding up all the foot soldiers in a mafia raid, and leaving the Don alone, since he didn't "have anything to do with it".
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  16. #16
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    I'm too jaded with life to have heroes anymore. I'll just suffer through until sweet ass oblivion. There's people I respect and look up to, but heroes? **** that, I'll leave them to the comic books of yore.
    Last edited by monzie; 10-11-2012 at 06:47 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Heros...well heck yea...

    I see heros in every one of those boys in uniform...some don't get to come home.
    Ride Hard or Ride Home Alone.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Heros are dead.
    Not really.

    Instead Of Surgery, Man Pedals Off The Pounds : NPR

    People who remind me to STFU-and-pedal-because-you-officially-have-no-excuses inspire me to the fullest extent.


  19. #19
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    We are surrounded by heroes everyday, they are among us, everywhere you look, everywhere you go. Quit looking up on the pedestal and you will find real heroes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    That's what I was thinking.....

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Not really.

    Instead Of Surgery, Man Pedals Off The Pounds : NPR

    People who remind me to STFU-and-pedal-because-you-officially-have-no-excuses inspire me to the fullest extent.

    I love that story. There is more than one hero in it.


    BTW--I love that while I'm reading this thread, there is an ad for some energy supplement endorsed by Lance on the side bar. How clever MTBR

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Not really.
    Folks that inspire, do awesome stuff, what have you, are great, and their acts should never be diminished or looked down upon.

    "Be a healthy hero" is a local ad campaign for better eating habits. I rest my case, Madison Ave owns "hero". Everyone is a hero for something nowadays.

    I guess I look at people differently, but doing something because it's the right thing to do, no matter how tough, doesn't make you a hero.

    Dying doing it does.
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  23. #23
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    I love that literal pedal your a.. off story. He would fit here nicely. Maybe somebody could send him an invitation.
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  24. #24
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    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.


    I was with you until you said teachers, in my area they are mostly the scum of the earth. Have put a business out of business with their mafia tactics. Definitley not in the "Hero" category.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    I'm too jaded with life to have heroes anymore. I'll just suffer through until sweet ass oblivion. There's people I respect and look up to, but heroes? **** that, I'll leave them to the comic books of yore.
    aw c'mon monzie, what about folks like anna politskovkaya:

    Anna Politkovskaya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    although i do agree w/ you, reading the news does increase the jaded factor substantially....
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Folks that inspire, do awesome stuff, what have you, are great, and their acts should never be diminished or looked down upon.

    "Be a healthy hero" is a local ad campaign for better eating habits. I rest my case, Madison Ave owns "hero". Everyone is a hero for something nowadays.

    I guess I look at people differently, but doing something because it's the right thing to do, no matter how tough, doesn't make you a hero.

    Dying doing it does.
    Nah, I got you... and agree. People throw around the word a lot - some people become heroes by default just because of what they chose to do for a living.

  27. #27
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    I stopped believing in professional sports and looking up to any professional athlete when I was 15 years old. Here's an excerpt from another discussion I had in another thread. Sorry for the cross-post - it seems relevant:

    "It occurred to me at age 15 that a competitive series with an arbitrary class and points system is a manipulative construct designed to enrich a group of people at the expense of unwitting competitors and fans.

    If you are truly interested in finding out who the best is, then all competitors should ride identical bicycles in one class like Desgrange insisted on for the 1930 Tour de France. But the commercial interests wouldn't have it."

    The only reason professional sports exist is to sell stuff and allow rich people to play a game using real people. It is all a manipulation construct.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    As a baseball fan, I completely understand. Baseball was my escape growing up in a not so great neighbor hood and during Oilbust where everyone lost their jobs. The neighbor hood kids and I would play stick ball in the fields aftr lunch and watch the games in the afternoon. As time changed so did baseball, players went on strike and the Series canceled etc. I was really broken hearted about it. Then to make things worse, they accused all my childhood heroes one by one for steroid abuse. I felt like the kid asking Shoeless Joe Jackson, "Say it Ain't So!" Then I read Juiced by Consaco and some o the court evidence and realized, they all juiced. I swore off Baseball for years. I don't know what brought me back but I started watching it again several years back.

    If I learned anything from the steroids whether it's Biking or baseball, and that these people are human and make mistakes.

  29. #29
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    as a fellow cancer survivor, it did inspire me that he was able to return to professional sports after treatment for a very aggressive form of the disease.

    with that said, the report left little doubt in my mind that he's been doping for a very long time.

    but that's not what bothers me about the situation. just about all of his competitors from that time period have either been caught or admitted to doping (or both) so I was not deluded into thinking he was actually clean. what bothers me about it is the way he aggressively covered it up and vilified others to prevent the information from coming out. that, I think, is worse than the actual doping.

  30. #30
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    I only look up to people like Sal Khan.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    what bothers me about it is the way he aggressively covered it up and vilified others to prevent the information from coming out. that, I think, is worse than the actual doping.
    Yup. I'm a "most everyone in the sport was/is doping" opinion guy from early on. I actually didn't/don't fault Armstrong for the doping. In fact, for a time, I justified it by the work he was doing for cancer. But as the years wore on, and Armstrong kept trying to destroy people, I began to come to the realization he was a dick.

  32. #32
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    i think the word hero is meaningless to me. I've never had a hero. No one I'm so in awe with as to be forever changed. I've also been called a sociopath...

    I'm not bothered at all by doping. They all do it. How can you blame them.
    And anyway I want to see either a bunch of guys that eat meat and vegetables and pasta and no protein powder, creatine and all the rest of the snakeoil from GNC. Nothing.
    Or I want to see the absolute most science and willpower can pull out of the human body.
    Thats what those guys do. the most badass riders taken to the limit by drugs. Awesome.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinning Lizard View Post
    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.


    I was with you until you said teachers, in my area they are mostly the scum of the earth. Have put a business out of business with their mafia tactics. Definitley not in the "Hero" category.
    Naw, real heros are Marines, soldiers, firefighters, cops, and people who actually put their lives on the line. Or they can be people who endure great sufffering for their beliefs. But school teachers? Nothing heroic about them. They're paid, they do their work.

    We've sort of debased the word "hero" lately.

    Atheletes? Heck, they get payed to play children's games. Seriously.

  34. #34
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    Lance Armstrong knew the rules and decided to break them. He is a coward and his entire career is a sham.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I guess I look at people differently, but doing something because it's the right thing to do, no matter how tough, doesn't make you a hero.
    It makes you a man with integrity and honor, qualities that aren't focused on enough these days. Instead it's productivity and ambition.
    Dying doing it does.
    I would say that makes you a martyr.
    "Be a healthy hero" is a local ad campaign for better eating habits. I rest my case, Madison Ave owns "hero". Everyone is a hero for something nowadays.
    Now THIS is a hero!


  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    If you really knew EVERYTHING about the so called "heros" in history, I doubt we could ever call anyone a hero. We base this usually on one thing or one facet, and ignore the rest or are unable to know the rest. In today's technological age, we are able to know more than ever, so we find out more of the bad. I don't think there are many, if any, true heros. Most if the time it's us trying to rationalize a bad situation or someone using their genetic superiority.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  37. #37
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    Everyone needs inspirational people to look up too....unfortunately they are fewer and fewer around these days. I feel sorry for the youth that aren't able to process this as well as us adults.
    Adios,
    "Chaco"

    Lots of kids tell me they want to be firefighters when they grow up, I tell them they can't do both!

  38. #38
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    You can't take an average bike rider, give him performance enhancing drugs, and have him win the Tour de France. All of those guys were really, really good at what they did. But when you think about it, they were mostly good at suffering in pursuit of winning a pointless bike race. That's cool, I guess. But calling them heroes is a stretch.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29 View Post
    You can't take an average bike rider, give him performance enhancing drugs, and have him win the Tour de France. All of those guys were really, really good at what they did. But when you think about it, they were mostly good at suffering in pursuit of winning a pointless bike race. That's cool, I guess. But calling them heroes is a stretch.
    But calling them cheating, worthless D-bags is in order. Anyone who cheats is a horrible person who should burn in the vast pits of Hell.
    Last edited by wmac; 10-11-2012 at 09:29 PM.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  40. #40
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    The thoughts expressed herein about what constitutes a hero in modern society are excellent. First of all, to give a bit more orientation to my use of the term "hero", I bought into the scenario of cancer- survivor- turned- Tour- winner as worthy of the designation. Cancer survivors have taken a journey through a living hell and are deserving of being called a hero. As to teachers, I was thinking of teachers I know who gave up economic gain and chose to teach. That is a noble choice in today's world, but perhaps you are right of not truly "heroic". I absolutely agree with those comments that men and women who served in the military are worthy of that status. And, let me add the local cop on the beat to that list.

    To continue, I believe there is a dual definition of the term hero, one used in a childlike, fantasy application by children, and that use of the term by an adult, if he/she so chooses, after all the fantasies have fallen away. Despite some pretty funny comments made to my first post, my use the term is not based on worship or idolization. Rather, it's based upon the fact that as a result of living life, I come to realize that I have my limitations which make me an Ordinary Joe in many ways. And that's cool, as that is part of the maturation process to accepting your limitations and enjoying the life you are capable of creating to the best of your abilities.

    But, when someone makes supreme sacrifices I know I could not make, or prevails over incredible odds with a positive spirit about life entact, then, in my world, there has to be a way to characterize that person, and hero status is the way I chose to do so. Soldiers who are recognized for heroic feats often say they were just trying to survive in one piece, not win a medal. And that is the ultimate to me - perform a heroic feat and then put themselves down.

    So, to return to Lance and George, I was deceived. As someone said, they are cheats, so despite their natural elite abilities to suffer and excel on a bike, I'm hitting the Delete Button on those guys.
    Will trade for some chicken.

  41. #41
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    Yeah, cancer sucks. But just because you survived it doesn't mean you are automatically a hero. What you do with yourself afterward has a huge part of that.

    Lance's charity helped a lot of people. He provided inspiration to a lot of cancer patients over the years. By many accounts, that would qualify him for the title of hero. But there is this nagging issue of the way he achieved that. It won't change the fact that he was fun to watch but I think calling him a hero in light of that is a bit of a stretch

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I am a grown man, and Lance Armstrong and George Hincapie were heroes for me as Lance won his first Tour and...up to now. Especially, George, the ever-sacrificing lieutenant. And, when I think today of the hours I spent watching the Tour since the late 90's, and reading about it - and, yes, CARING, about how the race went - well, after today, one can't help but feel more than a bit foolish.

    Its hot here in the summer, and the one damn thing about July that was good was the Tour, and now I don't even know if I'll watch it again. Ever.

    I was a hold-out, and thought the way the USADA handled the case was suspect, and posted that somewhere in this forum. I still think is handled the matter poorly, but confessions from Hincapie, Leipheimer, Zabrinski, Vande Velde pretty much do it for me. USADA, you win, but you've lost someone who cared about road racing in the process. Of course, this is why those guys didn't join the Olympic Team for the US, and in a small corner of my mind, I remember wondering if that might be a part of the reason.

    Of course, calling these guys "heroes" must be placed in the context of life's true heroes, such as school teachers, but I think its okay to have sports heroes, too. But, with this news, I'll have to fight the easy reaction of total cynicism that as an adult, I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.

    P.S. And, that Hincapie jersey I bought a few months ago, well, maybe I'll shoe-horn in an "r" after the "c".
    I have always thought that treating someone as a "hero" simply because they are recognized as "the best" at something demeans the value of the term "hero".

    The folks supporting the bike dude on the CX bike are bigger heroes than someone who wins the TDF but does nothing for their community.

    If Lance is/was a hero (not weighing in on that), it should be judged more on his work with Livestrong, NOT what he did on a bike.
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    Hero? guess that's in the eye of the beholder, but as far as Lance....think if the USADA and everyone else who's responsible for getting the race ready can't get their sh!t together enough to ensure that all the racers are clean at the start of race day, they shouldn't be allowed to call the racers on it after it's done and won, or postpone the race until they can ensure it's legit. In hindsight we can see that there's no clear decision after the fact, and only the sport suffers because sore losers are allowed to run a muck.
    My .02
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    Why not? You scared of the ghey?

    I have friends I idolize, and I have friends that idolize me, its flattering, and makes me smile, idolize someone today and pass the stoke

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    Hmm, lots to say but I will try to keep it short and sweet. There are hero's all around us. I can start with parents. Whome bust their tails every day at work and support their kids in all that they do. Staying home with them when they are sick and attending all the school functions and whatever else to be there for those children.
    Police and firemen. Putting themselves in harms way to help people in danger. Comming when they are called knowing that things could turn out bad.
    Military. They go where they are sent. Again knowing that things could get ugly. If they are sent most likely it already is.
    So far all these people do all this willingly.
    Sports hero's that is a whole different ball of wax. It still comes down to playing a game. They are paid tons of money to do some extrodinary physical act that not just anyone can do.We look up to these people because they can do things we "normal" people can only dream about. Should we call them hero's? No I don't believe so. Held to a highter standard sure because of the things they can do. We expect them to do it clean. We are told they do it clean so when one gets caught or in this case people claim they saw him do it it crushes our view of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    A grown man should not idolize another grown man.
    Yeah, men suck, why would you idolize them?

  47. #47
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    Hero is an over used term and should NEVER be mixed up with sports.
    A in my books is somebody that works their whole life for the good of others expecting nothing in return except for a rich n full heart.
    A hero is somebody that gives others life, or risks their own life or standing for another human being or animal or the earth.
    A hero is a person that against all odds stands up and fights for what he believes in even when he will be shunned for it and even knows that he will be standing alone to take up the fight.
    A hero is somebody that in the face of massive adversity fights an honest fight,not for himself but for others.
    Or a hero is somebody that overcomes great personal tradgedy, addiction, health or adversity and moves on to make a difference in life.
    To a child a sportsman might be a hero, but as you grow older n face real life adversity and sacrifice you quickly find out that sportsman dont cut it as heros.
    Nobody thats a sportsman is doin it for others, they do it for themselves, yes they have many great qualities to admire n respect and motivate, but they aint heros....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  48. #48
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    Lots of good comments both pro and con. I think rather than argue whether or not Lance was a hero, we should argue whether he was/is a champion.

    Champion : Noun: A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.

    Most of us will never understand to any real degree what Lance and people like him endure or what they give up to reach their level of success.

    To perform at that level two things are required.
    1) You must eat, sleep, and $hit your pursuit. You dream it, work it, live it. Success at that level requires the sacrifice of everything and everyone else in your life.

    2) You seek out and take advantage of every edge. Most of us will never throw our leg over a bike anything like the bikes Lance rides, or wear the gear he wears. He is always meticulously prepared. We can't afford the nutrition he takes advantage of. We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has. We will never have the pressure of managing employees, sponsors, huge budgets, the media. Most of all, we can't withstand the pain of endless hours in the saddle, pushing our bodies into zones of effort only a few athletes have ever visited.

    Experts will affirm that any advantage provided to Lance by doping was minuscule. Many believe the results of those races would be the same whether Lance doped or not. It would have been more devastating to his race results to make his bike a pound heavier, his tires a little more slow rolling, or change his diet to something like the things we eat before a race. Losers can always find some way to explain why they finish second. Haters should realize diminishing the efforts of others doesn't make you a winner.

    I know some will argue that Lance was expected to seek every "legal" edge, but cheating crosses the line. You definitely have a point. Lance did cheat, but it seems unfair to me that his samples were treated differently than everyone else's. If a set of standards is required to judge the conduct of athletes, it seems to me the same equal standard should apply to governing boards. Only Lance had samples taken and stored with the intent of developing future techniques to catch him cheating. How many of you could withstand that kind of scrutiny in your profession?

    Stripping Lance of his titles doesn't change the fact that on those race days, Lance "defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition". Lance may not be a hero, but in my mind he remains a champion.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Lots of good comments both pro and con. I think rather than argue whether or not Lance was a hero, we should argue whether he was/is a champion.

    Champion : Noun: A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.

    Most of us will never understand to any real degree what Lance and people like him endure or what they give up to reach their level of success.

    To perform at that level two things are required.
    1) You must eat, sleep, and $hit your pursuit. You dream it, work it, live it. Success at that level requires the sacrifice of everything and everyone else in your life.

    2) You seek out and take advantage of every edge. Most of us will never throw our leg over a bike anything like the bikes Lance rides, or wear the gear he wears. He is always meticulously prepared. We can't afford the nutrition he takes advantage of. We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has. We will never have the pressure of managing employees, sponsors, huge budgets, the media. Most of all, we can't withstand the pain of endless hours in the saddle, pushing our bodies into zones of effort only a few athletes have ever visited.

    Experts will affirm that any advantage provided to Lance by doping was minuscule. Many believe the results of those races would be the same whether Lance doped or not. It would have been more devastating to his race results to make his bike a pound heavier, his tires a little more slow rolling, or change his diet to something like the things we eat before a race. Losers can always find some way to explain why they finish second. Haters should realize diminishing the efforts of others doesn't make you a winner.

    I know some will argue that Lance was expected to seek every "legal" edge, but cheating crosses the line. You definitely have a point. Lance did cheat, but it seems unfair to me that his samples were treated differently than everyone else's. If a set of standards is required to judge the conduct of athletes, it seems to me the same equal standard should apply to governing boards. Only Lance had samples taken and stored with the intent of developing future techniques to catch him cheating. How many of you could withstand that kind of scrutiny in your profession?

    Stripping Lance of his titles doesn't change the fact that on those race days, Lance "defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition". Lance may not be a hero, but in my mind he remains a champion.
    Nice post and i agree with a few things youve said but you will find NO experts to argue that Lance gained little or no advantage from doping.
    Lance would have been a nobody if it wasnt for dope, he was a back end rider in the pack before he started doping, Phil Ligget who is a gun judge of a good cyclist said lance never stood out one iota in his early years.
    To claim that ''any advantage that Lance gained from doping was MINISCULE'' is boarderlining on the ridiculous and naive, dope bought him from a very average rider to a great rider...
    Lance is not a champion, hes a cheat and a liar and bully.
    To claim his advantages from doping was miniscule is totally ridiculous and maybe the most bizzare and crazy thing ive read on here in the whole LA affair...

    And to say the results would have been the same regardless even if he never doped is totally ridiculous, can you please put up the links that support your argument, i just cant get my head around your post.
    cheers
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  50. #50
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    Lopaka -
    Excellent words - fully agree!

    Tone's -
    In his early days, Lance was a Tri-Athlete with a lot of swimming upper body weight. During his bout with cancer, he lost all that extra weight and came back training specifically as a bike rider.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    What is ‘doping’ anyway?

    All these guys are going to try and get right up to the ‘line’ with all methods that give them maximum advantage. Diet, sleeping in an altitude chamber, drugs, etc. If you go a little over the line and get caught, suddenly you are evil? I bet every one of these guys have crossed over the line more than once…

    I’m always amazed how close the TDF ends up. Wasn’t the finish with LeMond only 7 secs after 2000 miles?

    Anyway - anyone who just finishes the TDF gets a hats off from me!

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    In his early days, Lance was a Tri-Athlete with a lot of swimming upper body weight. During his bout with cancer, he lost all that extra weight and came back training specifically as a bike rider.
    The weight loss concept is yet another aspect of the Armstrong myth that doesn't hold water when actually placed under scrutiny (like the false "most tested athlete" claims, etc.)

    See the data chart below from Ed Coyle, who collected some long term numbers on Armstrong at different points during his career, with Armstrong's cooperation. The moral of the story is that anything you've read about Armstrong during the building of his personal "mythos" may not be an accurate reflection of the truth.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  52. #52
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    I just read the first post and scrolled down.

    Athletes do drugs. Professional sports is about winning. Normal, average old guys with money are taking testosterone and human growth hormones. Maybe we'll all be on juice in 10 years. Everyone in the peloton was/is on drugs and Lance was still the best 7 years in a row! Just to show up healthy and in shape is a big deal but he won 7 times! I still respect him as an athlete, one of the greatest ever.

    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.

    and that huge, fat guy's story isn't inspiring at all to me. WTF was he thinking/doing all those years to get that fat? He got so fat he thought about having surgery but instead he rides a bike and comes in last every race. I'm supposed to be inspired because he pissed away years of his life but has now decided to smarten up? That's great that he saw the light but I don't respect him because he's trying to have a normal human weight.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    I just read the first post and scrolled down.

    Athletes do drugs. Professional sports is about winning. Normal, average old guys with money are taking testosterone and human growth hormones. Maybe we'll all be on juice in 10 years. Everyone in the peloton was/is on drugs and Lance was still the best 7 years in a row! Just to show up healthy and in shape is a big deal but he won 7 times! I still respect him as an athlete, one of the greatest ever.
    Yes, but every one else in the peloton did not go out of their way to destroy the lives of any person who would talk the truth. Armstrong is an a-hole who would crush anyone who tarnished his reputation. Maybe that character trait is what made him the best, not the drugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.
    Um. You're likely a fool. How's that for a wild generalization. Good teachers work their tails off. Same as any profession, you have to work hard to be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and that huge, fat guy's story isn't inspiring at all to me. WTF was he thinking/doing all those years to get that fat? He got so fat he thought about having surgery but instead he rides a bike and comes in last every race. I'm supposed to be inspired because he pissed away years of his life but has now decided to smarten up? That's great that he saw the light but I don't respect him because he's trying to have a normal human weight.
    Oh, now I see you're likely a troll. I didn't know you were posting here, Lance.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    I just read the first post and scrolled down.

    Athletes do drugs. Professional sports is about winning. Normal, average old guys with money are taking testosterone and human growth hormones. Maybe we'll all be on juice in 10 years. Everyone in the peloton was/is on drugs and Lance was still the best 7 years in a row! Just to show up healthy and in shape is a big deal but he won 7 times! I still respect him as an athlete, one of the greatest ever.

    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.

    and that huge, fat guy's story isn't inspiring at all to me. WTF was he thinking/doing all those years to get that fat? He got so fat he thought about having surgery but instead he rides a bike and comes in last every race. I'm supposed to be inspired because he pissed away years of his life but has now decided to smarten up? That's great that he saw the light but I don't respect him because he's trying to have a normal human weight.
    Ridiculous post.....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  55. #55
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    Here's something I thought about in the last few days:

    A lot of adults take supplements (I don't...well, not until about a day ago when I got my vitamin D store for the alaskan winter, haha). Would they all DIE if they didn't take supplements? So do these "enhance" performance? What about caffeine? I know it's been debated elsewhere in these threads, so probably not worth worrying about, but we have such a culture around certain things ourselves and do not even realize it. I don't drink coffee, yet I see and feel the pressure all the time to do so. In the army it was many times harder, with smoking being "pushed" to a high extent, and being on the outside-looking in, it's a totally different perspective than being "in" and seeing things as normal. Excessive partying and binge drinking? Same thing.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Guys like LA and GH were heroes to more than a few, until all this came out. Heroes come and go.

    I'll define "hero" here as just someone you admire for doing something you can only imagine doing, or doing something that fires you up to match it. For me, that was Clair Duckham, an ordinary guy who rode his bike DAILY past age 100, and passed about 4-1/2 years ago in a nursing home. I don't expect to reach 100 years, but I am targeting 90, when I will pedal for 90 minutes!

    I could never match what LA & GH did, nor do I care to; I don't like who I become when I let the competitive juices flow. Nevertheless, what they did was heroic (at first).

    Admire whoever you want, but at the end of the day, LIKE who looks at you in the mirror, and keep THAT nut cracking!
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.
    I can't believe you said that on a public forum. Only someone who is uneducated would make a statement like that, you're a loser!
    Last edited by SV11; 11-05-2012 at 11:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I can't believe you said that on a public forum. Only someone who is uneducated would make a statement like that, you're a loser!
    i totally agree!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    Exactly. So. He is still a damn good cyclist and in my mind he is the winner of those 7 tours. I DON'T CARE IF HIS TEAM PLAYED BY THE RULEBOOK. Many didn't although probably not to that level.
    That's kind of my point... Did they test extensively the first 20 places for all years. My guess is that damn near everyone in serious contention of winning was on the juice . As earlier posted its not about the doping it's about fair competition . Id put my money on all the top finishers at some level were doping. If that is true , it sounds fair to me. The solution is simple, have two classes ...... dopers and non dopers. Im personally sick and tired of the baby sitting. Let all sports dope.... I could care less what damage an athlete does to their body to win its their body . Just have two classes to make it fair.

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    New technology improves performance without the athlete having to do anything but purchase and use it, nobody would expect riders to use bike designs from 100 years ago. Steroids are just the next step. I can't just juice up and be lance, he's still an incredible athlete.


    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.
    Lol, just saw this. You sir are a complete and total idiot. I was not an education major but I had some experience teaching for a couple months and it is NOT easy. Actually, its pretty damn hard. Im not sure Id call a teacher a hero, but your assessment of their job only shows how ignorant you are.
    Last edited by SDKmann; 11-10-2012 at 09:25 AM.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.
    There are sporting heroes, but apparently not in pro cycling.

    If you're looking for sporting heroes, go ask Niki Lauda if he ever found his ears, or ask Eric Fontanari what it was like to be towed for an entire marathon by Alex Zanardi.

    But as far as cycling goes, take part in the mtbs, ignore the roadies.

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    Never considered anyone in sports a hero except Ted Williams and Moe Berg.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Lots of good comments both pro and con. I think rather than argue whether or not Lance was a hero, we should argue whether he was/is a champion.

    Champion : Noun: A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.
    lance armstrong : noun: a person who has lied, cheated, stolen, blackmailed, extorted, retaliated, bullied, and bribed his way to the podium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Most of us will never understand to any real degree what Lance and people like him endure or what they give up to reach their level of success.
    we know full well what he gave up to reach his level of success:

    1.) his honor
    2.) his integrity
    3.) his dignity
    4.) lots of money for bribes to cover up dirty blood tests
    5.) lots of payoff money to keep people quiet (not related to #4)
    6.) lots and lots of money to dishonest and unscrupulous doctors to supply him with PEDs
    7.) 7 TDF titles when he got busted
    8.) all of his major sponsors when he got busted
    9.) the ability to ever participate in cycling again
    10.) the ability to ever participate in any UCI sanctioned event again
    11.) his positions at livestrong and other business interests he has
    12.) worldwide respect (with the exception of a few isolated LA zealots here and there)
    13.) large amounts of money to retaliate legally, financially, and personally to ruin the lives of those he saw as his enemies
    14.) team camaraderie by bullying teammates into participating with him either in doping or keeping quiet about his doping
    15.) large amounts of money to fix races

    in exchange for giving these things up for his 15 minutes of fame he received worldwide shame, dishonor, ridicule, contempt, and disgust along with a lifetime of public disgrace and history recording him as the worst person ever in the history of cycling.

    what a legacy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Most of us will never throw our leg over a bike anything like the bikes Lance rides, or wear the gear he wears.
    that's certainly not true. lots of folks use the exact same stuff he did. i've had three road bikes on par with what he rode, one of them is sitting in my bedroom right now. his gear isn't anything out of the ordinary or unobtainable to the general public other than the sublimated team graphics on his lycra. and even that became available in reproduction items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has. We will never have the pressure of managing employees, sponsors, huge budgets, the media. Most of all, we can't withstand the pain of endless hours in the saddle, pushing our bodies into zones of effort only a few athletes have ever visited.
    this is probably the only coherent, viable statement in your entire post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Experts will affirm that any advantage provided to Lance by doping was minuscule.
    name one.

    LA was a middle/end pack rider who dropped out of tours, races, and had a lackluster performance record until he started doping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Many believe the results of those races would be the same whether Lance doped or not.
    many little kids believe in the easter bunny, tooth fairy, and santa... but that doesn't make it so.

    again, review his record before he started doping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    It would have been more devastating to his race results to make his bike a pound heavier, his tires a little more slow rolling, or change his diet to something like the things we eat before a race. Losers can always find some way to explain why they finish second. Haters should realize diminishing the efforts of others doesn't make you a winner.
    it would have been even more devastating if he would have ridden clean. again... review his pre-doping performance.

    so your position is that the people who have a problem with LA being a doping, lying, cheating, bullying, blackmailing, bribing, and conniving hypocritical extortionist are just "haters" who are trying to diminish his efforts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Only Lance had samples taken and stored with the intent of developing future techniques to catch him cheating.
    where did you get that information? same sources that tout LA as the most tested athlete, no doubt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    How many of you could withstand that kind of scrutiny in your profession?
    those of us who don't cheat... that's who.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Stripping Lance of his titles doesn't change the fact that on those race days, Lance "defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition". Lance may not be a hero, but in my mind he remains a champion.
    yup, cuz the people who had the integrity to race clean didn't stand a chance against the dopers, and the other dopers didn't stand a chance against the master doper. being a better cheater than everyone else hardly makes one a champion at anything other than cheating.

    however, if in your eyes a champion is one who cheats, lies, bullies, steals, bribes, and dishonestly bests his competitors then you certainly will never a better one than LA.
    Last edited by monogod; 11-12-2012 at 01:44 AM.
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    I started this thread to sort out the concept of a sports hero, and the comments have been provocative. However, on this day, Veteran's Day, if you haven't done so already, thank a real hero - a vet.
    Will trade for some chicken.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has.
    Armstrong without doping wouldn't be able to duplicate his own "enhanced" training regimen either.

    That's where most of the benefit of doping kicks in, allowing the athlete to use higher training loads, and consequently achieve higher levels of physiological adaptation, than they would otherwise be able to in a natural state.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    lance armstrong : noun: a person who has lied, cheated, stolen, blackmailed, extorted, retaliated, bullied, and bribed his way to the podium.

    yup, cuz the people who had the integrity to race clean didn't stand a chance against the dopers, and the other dopers didn't stand a chance against the master doper. being a better cheater than everyone else hardly makes one a champion at anything other than cheating.

    however, if in your eyes a champion is one who cheats, lies, bullies, steals, bribes, and dishonestly bests his competitors then you certainly will never a better one than LA.
    Can you clue me into what could possibly be the source of so much hatred?
    I've lived long enough to know that at the top of every heap is a prick who will do what ever it takes to win. I don't care if its business, politics, criminal activity, or show business. What is so evil about this prick? Why do the people who hate LA,, do so with such passion. Don't you guys realize that virtually every TDF competitor dopes? Did you guys miss a spot on the TDF team because LA cheated?
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Can you clue me into what could possibly be the source of so much hatred?
    I've lived long enough to know that at the top of every heap is a prick who will do what ever it takes to win. I don't care if its business, politics, criminal activity, or show business. What is so evil about this prick? Why do the people who hate LA,, do so with such passion. Don't you guys realize that virtually every TDF competitor dopes? Did you guys miss a spot on the TDF team because LA cheated?
    since when does truth=hatred?
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Can you clue me into what could possibly be the source of so much hatred?
    I've lived long enough to know that at the top of every heap is a prick who will do what ever it takes to win. I don't care if its business, politics, criminal activity, or show business. What is so evil about this prick? Why do the people who hate LA,, do so with such passion. Don't you guys realize that virtually every TDF competitor dopes? Did you guys miss a spot on the TDF team because LA cheated?
    Exactly!


    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    since when does truth=hatred?
    Its odd that you don't hate lance as everything you've posted indicates the opposite...

  69. #69
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    you're assuming facts not in evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    since when does truth=hatred?
    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    Its odd that you don't hate lance as everything you've posted indicates the opposite...
    it's odd that you would say that as everything i posted indicates the truth and is so logically based and devoid of personal feeling that spock could've written it.

    again, truth≠hatred.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Spock wouldn't have inflated a list of 4 things to a list of 12 things by using synonyms, Lance's honor, integrity and dignity all listed as separate items? "Bribing" people and "paying people off" listed as separate items?

    There is nothing logical about your list, you hatred shines through in your awkward attempt to make a long list out of a short list.

    At any rate, carry on, you seem to be enjoying yourself :-)

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    Spock wouldn't have inflated a list of 4 things to a list of 12 things by using synonyms, Lance's honor, integrity and dignity all listed as separate items? "Bribing" people and "paying people off" listed as separate items?

    There is nothing logical about your list, you hatred shines through in your awkward attempt to make a long list out of a short list.

    At any rate, carry on, you seem to be enjoying yourself :-)
    you'd have good points here were they actually valid.

    perhaps you're unaware that honor, integrity, and dignity actually have distinctly different meanings?

    honor - noun: high public esteem
    integrity - noun: soundness of moral character
    dignity - noun: bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect

    as can be clearly seen they hold distinctly different meanings both in common usage and within the context of the post.

    bribes paid off to cycling officials to make dirty blood tests go away and paying people off to keep quiet about actions they witnessed or participated in with him are two separate aspects of bribing thus meriting being listing separately.

    LA's sacrifices that didn't make the original list (but i'll go back and add them now):

    13.) large amounts of money to retaliate legally, financially, and personally to ruin the lives of those he saw as his enemies
    14.) team camaraderie by bullying teammates into participating with him either in doping or keeping quiet about his doping
    15.) large amounts of money to fix races

    the fact that you adamantly and intentionally misconstrue the enumeration of well known information with hatred and see nothing logical about the truth is indicative of premier LA fanboi status.


    LLAP
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    I stated they were synonyms, Disrespect is an antonym of honor, thus respect is a synonym, and honor is listed as the definition of integrity in the synonym dictionary, I stand by my post, I don't care if they all have slightly different meanings because I never claimed they had the same meaning. Integrity Synonyms, Integrity Antonyms | Thesaurus.com

    Lastly, the only rational reason for someone like you to so vehemently post about this is because you hate lance.

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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky1x View Post
    Thats not pride, thats arrogance, denial, and like he is so good at putting a fake front up...
    The guy is a boarder line sociopath and compulsive liar....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  75. #75
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    seriously? you're trying to tell me how i used words in my own post when i've made it clear how i used them and provided definitions demonstrating their distinctly different meanings???

    don't think i hate you because i'm breaking off some truth here bro, cuz you seem to equate truth with hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    I stated they were synonyms
    previously i tried to be gentle, but i'll be more blunt this time. you're wrong. they are not synonyms. those are primary definitions of common usage straight from dictionary.com, not something i just made up.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    Disrespect is an antonym of honor, thus respect is a synonym, and honor is listed as the definition of integrity in the synonym dictionary, I stand by my post,
    i did not use them as synonyms. i made that clear. so it doesn't matter how YOU use them since i was the one using the words in my post, explained how i used them, and even went so far as to spoon feed you the differing definitions and common usages of the words as they were used in the post thereby PROVING they were not synonyms.

    the bottom line is that they mean different things. get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    I don't care if they all have slightly different meanings because I never claimed they had the same meaning.
    first of all they have "distinctly" different meanings rather than "slightly" different meanings, as is clearly obvious.

    and yeah actually you did claim they had the same meaning when you accused me of using three words that meant the same thing in order to pad the list from 4 to 12. remember?

    not to mention you keep stating they're synonyms. (hint: synonym means "the same meaning")

    synonym: noun: a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language. source

    so first you say they're synonyms and mean the same thing, then in your next post you repeat that they are synonyms which mean the same thing then a sentence or two later reverse yourself and state you never claimed they had the same meaning?

    you're either arguing against yourself or have no clue what "synonym" means!

    however amusing that is for us and confusing it must be for you let's just put it to rest right now -- per the definitions provided (i.e. how they were used in my post) they do not have the same or nearly the same meaning as each other, thus they are NOT synonyms.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    Lastly, the only rational reason for someone like you to so vehemently post about this is because you hate lance.
    vehemently: adjective: characterized by rancor or anger; violent.

    nope... none of that in my posts about LA either in content, motive, or tone. i'm simply kickin' it joe friday style and the only response you have to FACTS is to attack the messenger.

    no matter how LA's peanut gallery tries to obfuscate the matter the truth is that NONE of us would having ANYTHING to talk about had LA not given us plenty of material to discuss.

    to that end, no matter how much mud someone like you tries to sling at those discussing LA'a actions in a desperate and futile attempt to distract from his reprehensible behavior one simple paradigm will remain: TRUTH IS NOT SYNONYMOUS WITH HATE.

    it simply is what it is bro, whether you like it or not.

    if you think reporting facts held in evidence equates to hate then you must think the entire global media hates lance... that most everyone (save the rare blindly devoted fanboi) on this forum and virtually every other interweb forum hates lance... that anyone who discusses these well known facts hates lance.

    one doesn't have to hate LA to recognize and/or state publicly that he is a piece of excrement whose behavior on countless fronts is abhorrent and he disgraced himself and the sport with his lying, cheating, doping, blackmailing, bribing, race fixing, perjury, and retaliation.

    to roughly quote f. gump, "excrement is as excrement does". LA defined himself by his actions. pure and simple.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I started this thread to sort out the concept of a sports hero, and the comments have been provocative. However, on this day, Veteran's Day, if you haven't done so already, thank a real hero - a vet.
    well said.

    you started a great thread and broached a topic very relevant in today's culture in general as well as pop-culture. imho the concept of "sports hero" is an oxymoron. why our culture idolizes people for doing inane things is wholly beyond me. it's almost as if we seek out the most dysfunctional, atrocious, reprehensible people to place on a pedestal, idolize, mimic, and overcompensate financially.

    two words can best sum this bizarre paradigm... "kim kardashian". rather than being shamed and humiliated by footage made public of her getting urinated on she's now a "star" and a "celebrity". but she's only famous for being famous.

    lest we digress...

    imho, and apparently yours too, heros are those who give of themselves to help others without expectation of return. altruism is heroic. philanthropy is heroic. especially when done without self-promotion. people who give and/or sacrifice of themselves whether financially, their goods, services, or ultimately their lives for the benefit of others are who i consider heros.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  77. #77
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    defining a "hero" is like defining the best color. you choose yours, I choose mine. Defining it, assigning attributes, or negotiating/explaining/arguing is a ridiculous waste of time.

    it's red. period. any intelligent and good looking person worthy of being loved knows...red.

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    Who cares? Shut up and keep pedaling!!

    I don't see why your sports hero should affect your love for the sport. Time to re-evaluate your priorities.



    -S

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Not really.

    Instead Of Surgery, Man Pedals Off The Pounds : NPR

    People who remind me to STFU-and-pedal-because-you-officially-have-no-excuses inspire me to the fullest extent.



    I read that and got a little misty eyed as I finished reading the story. That's awesome!!
    Not what you think.

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