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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    In his early days, Lance was a Tri-Athlete with a lot of swimming upper body weight. During his bout with cancer, he lost all that extra weight and came back training specifically as a bike rider.
    The weight loss concept is yet another aspect of the Armstrong myth that doesn't hold water when actually placed under scrutiny (like the false "most tested athlete" claims, etc.)

    See the data chart below from Ed Coyle, who collected some long term numbers on Armstrong at different points during his career, with Armstrong's cooperation. The moral of the story is that anything you've read about Armstrong during the building of his personal "mythos" may not be an accurate reflection of the truth.
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  2. #52
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    I just read the first post and scrolled down.

    Athletes do drugs. Professional sports is about winning. Normal, average old guys with money are taking testosterone and human growth hormones. Maybe we'll all be on juice in 10 years. Everyone in the peloton was/is on drugs and Lance was still the best 7 years in a row! Just to show up healthy and in shape is a big deal but he won 7 times! I still respect him as an athlete, one of the greatest ever.

    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.

    and that huge, fat guy's story isn't inspiring at all to me. WTF was he thinking/doing all those years to get that fat? He got so fat he thought about having surgery but instead he rides a bike and comes in last every race. I'm supposed to be inspired because he pissed away years of his life but has now decided to smarten up? That's great that he saw the light but I don't respect him because he's trying to have a normal human weight.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    I just read the first post and scrolled down.

    Athletes do drugs. Professional sports is about winning. Normal, average old guys with money are taking testosterone and human growth hormones. Maybe we'll all be on juice in 10 years. Everyone in the peloton was/is on drugs and Lance was still the best 7 years in a row! Just to show up healthy and in shape is a big deal but he won 7 times! I still respect him as an athlete, one of the greatest ever.
    Yes, but every one else in the peloton did not go out of their way to destroy the lives of any person who would talk the truth. Armstrong is an a-hole who would crush anyone who tarnished his reputation. Maybe that character trait is what made him the best, not the drugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.
    Um. You're likely a fool. How's that for a wild generalization. Good teachers work their tails off. Same as any profession, you have to work hard to be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and that huge, fat guy's story isn't inspiring at all to me. WTF was he thinking/doing all those years to get that fat? He got so fat he thought about having surgery but instead he rides a bike and comes in last every race. I'm supposed to be inspired because he pissed away years of his life but has now decided to smarten up? That's great that he saw the light but I don't respect him because he's trying to have a normal human weight.
    Oh, now I see you're likely a troll. I didn't know you were posting here, Lance.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    I just read the first post and scrolled down.

    Athletes do drugs. Professional sports is about winning. Normal, average old guys with money are taking testosterone and human growth hormones. Maybe we'll all be on juice in 10 years. Everyone in the peloton was/is on drugs and Lance was still the best 7 years in a row! Just to show up healthy and in shape is a big deal but he won 7 times! I still respect him as an athlete, one of the greatest ever.

    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.

    and that huge, fat guy's story isn't inspiring at all to me. WTF was he thinking/doing all those years to get that fat? He got so fat he thought about having surgery but instead he rides a bike and comes in last every race. I'm supposed to be inspired because he pissed away years of his life but has now decided to smarten up? That's great that he saw the light but I don't respect him because he's trying to have a normal human weight.
    Ridiculous post.....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  5. #55
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    Here's something I thought about in the last few days:

    A lot of adults take supplements (I don't...well, not until about a day ago when I got my vitamin D store for the alaskan winter, haha). Would they all DIE if they didn't take supplements? So do these "enhance" performance? What about caffeine? I know it's been debated elsewhere in these threads, so probably not worth worrying about, but we have such a culture around certain things ourselves and do not even realize it. I don't drink coffee, yet I see and feel the pressure all the time to do so. In the army it was many times harder, with smoking being "pushed" to a high extent, and being on the outside-looking in, it's a totally different perspective than being "in" and seeing things as normal. Excessive partying and binge drinking? Same thing.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  6. #56
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    Guys like LA and GH were heroes to more than a few, until all this came out. Heroes come and go.

    I'll define "hero" here as just someone you admire for doing something you can only imagine doing, or doing something that fires you up to match it. For me, that was Clair Duckham, an ordinary guy who rode his bike DAILY past age 100, and passed about 4-1/2 years ago in a nursing home. I don't expect to reach 100 years, but I am targeting 90, when I will pedal for 90 minutes!

    I could never match what LA & GH did, nor do I care to; I don't like who I become when I let the competitive juices flow. Nevertheless, what they did was heroic (at first).

    Admire whoever you want, but at the end of the day, LIKE who looks at you in the mirror, and keep THAT nut cracking!
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.
    I can't believe you said that on a public forum. Only someone who is uneducated would make a statement like that, you're a loser!
    Last edited by SV11; 11-05-2012 at 10:13 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    I can't believe you said that on a public forum. Only someone who is uneducated would make a statement like that, you're a loser!
    i totally agree!

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    Exactly. So. He is still a damn good cyclist and in my mind he is the winner of those 7 tours. I DON'T CARE IF HIS TEAM PLAYED BY THE RULEBOOK. Many didn't although probably not to that level.
    That's kind of my point... Did they test extensively the first 20 places for all years. My guess is that damn near everyone in serious contention of winning was on the juice . As earlier posted its not about the doping it's about fair competition . Id put my money on all the top finishers at some level were doping. If that is true , it sounds fair to me. The solution is simple, have two classes ...... dopers and non dopers. Im personally sick and tired of the baby sitting. Let all sports dope.... I could care less what damage an athlete does to their body to win its their body . Just have two classes to make it fair.

  10. #60
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    New technology improves performance without the athlete having to do anything but purchase and use it, nobody would expect riders to use bike designs from 100 years ago. Steroids are just the next step. I can't just juice up and be lance, he's still an incredible athlete.


    Quote Originally Posted by limba View Post
    and most school teachers suck. They take that job because it's easy and they get lots of holidays. School teachers aren't heroes, you're watching too many movies.
    Lol, just saw this. You sir are a complete and total idiot. I was not an education major but I had some experience teaching for a couple months and it is NOT easy. Actually, its pretty damn hard. Im not sure Id call a teacher a hero, but your assessment of their job only shows how ignorant you are.
    Last edited by SDKmann; 11-10-2012 at 08:25 AM.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by edley View Post
    I should know better and there are no sports heroes - that's just for kids.
    There are sporting heroes, but apparently not in pro cycling.

    If you're looking for sporting heroes, go ask Niki Lauda if he ever found his ears, or ask Eric Fontanari what it was like to be towed for an entire marathon by Alex Zanardi.

    But as far as cycling goes, take part in the mtbs, ignore the roadies.

  12. #62
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    Never considered anyone in sports a hero except Ted Williams and Moe Berg.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Lots of good comments both pro and con. I think rather than argue whether or not Lance was a hero, we should argue whether he was/is a champion.

    Champion : Noun: A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.
    lance armstrong : noun: a person who has lied, cheated, stolen, blackmailed, extorted, retaliated, bullied, and bribed his way to the podium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Most of us will never understand to any real degree what Lance and people like him endure or what they give up to reach their level of success.
    we know full well what he gave up to reach his level of success:

    1.) his honor
    2.) his integrity
    3.) his dignity
    4.) lots of money for bribes to cover up dirty blood tests
    5.) lots of payoff money to keep people quiet (not related to #4)
    6.) lots and lots of money to dishonest and unscrupulous doctors to supply him with PEDs
    7.) 7 TDF titles when he got busted
    8.) all of his major sponsors when he got busted
    9.) the ability to ever participate in cycling again
    10.) the ability to ever participate in any UCI sanctioned event again
    11.) his positions at livestrong and other business interests he has
    12.) worldwide respect (with the exception of a few isolated LA zealots here and there)
    13.) large amounts of money to retaliate legally, financially, and personally to ruin the lives of those he saw as his enemies
    14.) team camaraderie by bullying teammates into participating with him either in doping or keeping quiet about his doping
    15.) large amounts of money to fix races

    in exchange for giving these things up for his 15 minutes of fame he received worldwide shame, dishonor, ridicule, contempt, and disgust along with a lifetime of public disgrace and history recording him as the worst person ever in the history of cycling.

    what a legacy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Most of us will never throw our leg over a bike anything like the bikes Lance rides, or wear the gear he wears.
    that's certainly not true. lots of folks use the exact same stuff he did. i've had three road bikes on par with what he rode, one of them is sitting in my bedroom right now. his gear isn't anything out of the ordinary or unobtainable to the general public other than the sublimated team graphics on his lycra. and even that became available in reproduction items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has. We will never have the pressure of managing employees, sponsors, huge budgets, the media. Most of all, we can't withstand the pain of endless hours in the saddle, pushing our bodies into zones of effort only a few athletes have ever visited.
    this is probably the only coherent, viable statement in your entire post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Experts will affirm that any advantage provided to Lance by doping was minuscule.
    name one.

    LA was a middle/end pack rider who dropped out of tours, races, and had a lackluster performance record until he started doping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Many believe the results of those races would be the same whether Lance doped or not.
    many little kids believe in the easter bunny, tooth fairy, and santa... but that doesn't make it so.

    again, review his record before he started doping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    It would have been more devastating to his race results to make his bike a pound heavier, his tires a little more slow rolling, or change his diet to something like the things we eat before a race. Losers can always find some way to explain why they finish second. Haters should realize diminishing the efforts of others doesn't make you a winner.
    it would have been even more devastating if he would have ridden clean. again... review his pre-doping performance.

    so your position is that the people who have a problem with LA being a doping, lying, cheating, bullying, blackmailing, bribing, and conniving hypocritical extortionist are just "haters" who are trying to diminish his efforts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Only Lance had samples taken and stored with the intent of developing future techniques to catch him cheating.
    where did you get that information? same sources that tout LA as the most tested athlete, no doubt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    How many of you could withstand that kind of scrutiny in your profession?
    those of us who don't cheat... that's who.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka
    Stripping Lance of his titles doesn't change the fact that on those race days, Lance "defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition". Lance may not be a hero, but in my mind he remains a champion.
    yup, cuz the people who had the integrity to race clean didn't stand a chance against the dopers, and the other dopers didn't stand a chance against the master doper. being a better cheater than everyone else hardly makes one a champion at anything other than cheating.

    however, if in your eyes a champion is one who cheats, lies, bullies, steals, bribes, and dishonestly bests his competitors then you certainly will never a better one than LA.
    Last edited by monogod; 11-12-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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  14. #64
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    I started this thread to sort out the concept of a sports hero, and the comments have been provocative. However, on this day, Veteran's Day, if you haven't done so already, thank a real hero - a vet.
    Will trade for some chicken.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    We can't duplicate the training gear or regimen he has.
    Armstrong without doping wouldn't be able to duplicate his own "enhanced" training regimen either.

    That's where most of the benefit of doping kicks in, allowing the athlete to use higher training loads, and consequently achieve higher levels of physiological adaptation, than they would otherwise be able to in a natural state.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    lance armstrong : noun: a person who has lied, cheated, stolen, blackmailed, extorted, retaliated, bullied, and bribed his way to the podium.

    yup, cuz the people who had the integrity to race clean didn't stand a chance against the dopers, and the other dopers didn't stand a chance against the master doper. being a better cheater than everyone else hardly makes one a champion at anything other than cheating.

    however, if in your eyes a champion is one who cheats, lies, bullies, steals, bribes, and dishonestly bests his competitors then you certainly will never a better one than LA.
    Can you clue me into what could possibly be the source of so much hatred?
    I've lived long enough to know that at the top of every heap is a prick who will do what ever it takes to win. I don't care if its business, politics, criminal activity, or show business. What is so evil about this prick? Why do the people who hate LA,, do so with such passion. Don't you guys realize that virtually every TDF competitor dopes? Did you guys miss a spot on the TDF team because LA cheated?
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Can you clue me into what could possibly be the source of so much hatred?
    I've lived long enough to know that at the top of every heap is a prick who will do what ever it takes to win. I don't care if its business, politics, criminal activity, or show business. What is so evil about this prick? Why do the people who hate LA,, do so with such passion. Don't you guys realize that virtually every TDF competitor dopes? Did you guys miss a spot on the TDF team because LA cheated?
    since when does truth=hatred?
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Can you clue me into what could possibly be the source of so much hatred?
    I've lived long enough to know that at the top of every heap is a prick who will do what ever it takes to win. I don't care if its business, politics, criminal activity, or show business. What is so evil about this prick? Why do the people who hate LA,, do so with such passion. Don't you guys realize that virtually every TDF competitor dopes? Did you guys miss a spot on the TDF team because LA cheated?
    Exactly!


    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    since when does truth=hatred?
    Its odd that you don't hate lance as everything you've posted indicates the opposite...

  19. #69
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    you're assuming facts not in evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by monogod
    since when does truth=hatred?
    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    Its odd that you don't hate lance as everything you've posted indicates the opposite...
    it's odd that you would say that as everything i posted indicates the truth and is so logically based and devoid of personal feeling that spock could've written it.

    again, truth≠hatred.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  20. #70
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    Spock wouldn't have inflated a list of 4 things to a list of 12 things by using synonyms, Lance's honor, integrity and dignity all listed as separate items? "Bribing" people and "paying people off" listed as separate items?

    There is nothing logical about your list, you hatred shines through in your awkward attempt to make a long list out of a short list.

    At any rate, carry on, you seem to be enjoying yourself :-)

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    Spock wouldn't have inflated a list of 4 things to a list of 12 things by using synonyms, Lance's honor, integrity and dignity all listed as separate items? "Bribing" people and "paying people off" listed as separate items?

    There is nothing logical about your list, you hatred shines through in your awkward attempt to make a long list out of a short list.

    At any rate, carry on, you seem to be enjoying yourself :-)
    you'd have good points here were they actually valid.

    perhaps you're unaware that honor, integrity, and dignity actually have distinctly different meanings?

    honor - noun: high public esteem
    integrity - noun: soundness of moral character
    dignity - noun: bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect

    as can be clearly seen they hold distinctly different meanings both in common usage and within the context of the post.

    bribes paid off to cycling officials to make dirty blood tests go away and paying people off to keep quiet about actions they witnessed or participated in with him are two separate aspects of bribing thus meriting being listing separately.

    LA's sacrifices that didn't make the original list (but i'll go back and add them now):

    13.) large amounts of money to retaliate legally, financially, and personally to ruin the lives of those he saw as his enemies
    14.) team camaraderie by bullying teammates into participating with him either in doping or keeping quiet about his doping
    15.) large amounts of money to fix races

    the fact that you adamantly and intentionally misconstrue the enumeration of well known information with hatred and see nothing logical about the truth is indicative of premier LA fanboi status.


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    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  22. #72
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    I stated they were synonyms, Disrespect is an antonym of honor, thus respect is a synonym, and honor is listed as the definition of integrity in the synonym dictionary, I stand by my post, I don't care if they all have slightly different meanings because I never claimed they had the same meaning. Integrity Synonyms, Integrity Antonyms | Thesaurus.com

    Lastly, the only rational reason for someone like you to so vehemently post about this is because you hate lance.

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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by chunky1x View Post
    Thats not pride, thats arrogance, denial, and like he is so good at putting a fake front up...
    The guy is a boarder line sociopath and compulsive liar....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  25. #75
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    seriously? you're trying to tell me how i used words in my own post when i've made it clear how i used them and provided definitions demonstrating their distinctly different meanings???

    don't think i hate you because i'm breaking off some truth here bro, cuz you seem to equate truth with hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
    I stated they were synonyms
    previously i tried to be gentle, but i'll be more blunt this time. you're wrong. they are not synonyms. those are primary definitions of common usage straight from dictionary.com, not something i just made up.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    Disrespect is an antonym of honor, thus respect is a synonym, and honor is listed as the definition of integrity in the synonym dictionary, I stand by my post,
    i did not use them as synonyms. i made that clear. so it doesn't matter how YOU use them since i was the one using the words in my post, explained how i used them, and even went so far as to spoon feed you the differing definitions and common usages of the words as they were used in the post thereby PROVING they were not synonyms.

    the bottom line is that they mean different things. get over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    I don't care if they all have slightly different meanings because I never claimed they had the same meaning.
    first of all they have "distinctly" different meanings rather than "slightly" different meanings, as is clearly obvious.

    and yeah actually you did claim they had the same meaning when you accused me of using three words that meant the same thing in order to pad the list from 4 to 12. remember?

    not to mention you keep stating they're synonyms. (hint: synonym means "the same meaning")

    synonym: noun: a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another in the language. source

    so first you say they're synonyms and mean the same thing, then in your next post you repeat that they are synonyms which mean the same thing then a sentence or two later reverse yourself and state you never claimed they had the same meaning?

    you're either arguing against yourself or have no clue what "synonym" means!

    however amusing that is for us and confusing it must be for you let's just put it to rest right now -- per the definitions provided (i.e. how they were used in my post) they do not have the same or nearly the same meaning as each other, thus they are NOT synonyms.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackbombay
    Lastly, the only rational reason for someone like you to so vehemently post about this is because you hate lance.
    vehemently: adjective: characterized by rancor or anger; violent.

    nope... none of that in my posts about LA either in content, motive, or tone. i'm simply kickin' it joe friday style and the only response you have to FACTS is to attack the messenger.

    no matter how LA's peanut gallery tries to obfuscate the matter the truth is that NONE of us would having ANYTHING to talk about had LA not given us plenty of material to discuss.

    to that end, no matter how much mud someone like you tries to sling at those discussing LA'a actions in a desperate and futile attempt to distract from his reprehensible behavior one simple paradigm will remain: TRUTH IS NOT SYNONYMOUS WITH HATE.

    it simply is what it is bro, whether you like it or not.

    if you think reporting facts held in evidence equates to hate then you must think the entire global media hates lance... that most everyone (save the rare blindly devoted fanboi) on this forum and virtually every other interweb forum hates lance... that anyone who discusses these well known facts hates lance.

    one doesn't have to hate LA to recognize and/or state publicly that he is a piece of excrement whose behavior on countless fronts is abhorrent and he disgraced himself and the sport with his lying, cheating, doping, blackmailing, bribing, race fixing, perjury, and retaliation.

    to roughly quote f. gump, "excrement is as excrement does". LA defined himself by his actions. pure and simple.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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