Poll: E-bikes on your local mountain bike trails?

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  1. #1
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    E-bikes on your local trails. Yay or nay?

    Since it is impossible to have an intelligent, impartial discussion in the e-bike forum, maybe we can have one in the general forum. How do you feel about e-bikes on your local mountain bike trails?

    A). No problem. They won't cause any issues.

    B). I think they will be ok on some trails for disabled users.

    C). Depends on the class and restrictions.

    D) I think they should be allowed on motorized trails only.

    This isn't a complete poll, but I think it captures the majority of opinions.

    By the way, here's a link to a similar poll in the e-bike forum. Apparently, us anti-ebike people were "owned" here.

    For or Against Pedal Assist E-MTBs in the USA
    Last edited by mountainbiker24; 2 Weeks Ago at 01:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    D, every day, all day. Our trails are on logging company land, and their rules are clear. No motorized vehicles, and our mtb organization has banned them so far. There are plenty of moto and trials moto trails in the area.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  3. #3
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    D...
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  4. #4
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    Super D.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  5. #5
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    Double D
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  6. #6
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    Let em go build their own trails.
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    Should be allowed on some trails. Motorcycles are not allowed on ANY trails within 100 miles of here due to noise. There is no reason to be that restrictive on ebikes.
    Last edited by andytiedye; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:53 PM.

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    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  9. #9
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    I will also vote D.

  10. #10
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    Deez, all day.

  11. #11
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    My local trails get a lot of traffic and they are directional. If ebikes become common, passing is going to be a mess.

    SoÖ D it is.
    There are two types of people in this world:
    1) Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

  12. #12
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    I'm going with what my ex gf always wanted. The D.

  13. #13
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    D, biatch.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Should be allowed on some trails. Motorcycles are not allowed on ANY trails within 100 miles of here due to noise. There is no reason to be that restrictive on ebikes.
    yes there is, and if your unable to reach the appropriate conclusion as to why, well......
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    Double D
    and some...me likey

    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Let em go build their own trails.
    or join the dirt bike crowd.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  16. #16
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    While I don't personally have a problem with e-bikes on any trails, it's probably best to just treat them the same as motorcycles for the sake of clarity on trail access. And there's already enough conflict, do we really need to bring in another user group?

    Another reason to treat them as motorcycles is that there aren't nearly enough moto trails in my area, and if the e-bike thing takes off like they claim it might lead to increased OHV trail development.



    .

  17. #17
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    Nay
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  18. #18
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    I'm astounded that this thread hasn't devolved into heated arguments yet.



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  19. #19
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    Who cares what anyone posts here or wants. It's not going to change anything.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I'm astounded that this thread hasn't devolved into heated arguments yet.

    DDDDDDDD!!!
    so true, there's still time, so grab the beer n popcorn and get comfy.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Who cares what anyone posts here or wants. It's not going to change anything.
    perhaps, perhaps not.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Who cares what anyone posts here or wants. It's not going to change anything.

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    Right. Because public opinion has never had an impact on anything.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Right. Because public opinion has never had an impact on anything.
    Believe it or not, a national mtb forum is not the "public opinion" that any land manager cares about.

    Go ahead and argue about it here. No side is going to change the other sides opinion.

    If you want to make a difference, get involved at the local advocacy level and vote for politicians who might actually vote for the ebike policy of your liking.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Believe it or not, a national mtb forum is not the "public opinion" that any land manager cares about.

    Go ahead and argue about it here. No side is going to change the other sides opinion.

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    Thanks for the allowance. Is this not a discussion forum? Using your logic, I reckon itís best to just not discuss anything at all.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Believe it or not, a national mtb forum is not the "public opinion" that any land manager cares about.


    If you want to make a difference, get involved at the local advocacy level and vote for politicians who might actually vote for the ebike policy of your liking.

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    Again, thanks. Do you think that this isnít already happening?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Thanks for the allowance. Is this not a discussion forum? Using your logic, I reckon itís best to just not discuss anything at all.
    You must be new here. This subject has been beat to death on the ebike forum. Beat. To. Death. The OP was getting owned for stupid posts over there so he brought it to general.

    Discussions are great. I'm all for it. This isn't going to be one.

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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    You must be new here. This subject has been beat to death on the ebike forum. Beat. To. Death. The OP was getting owned for stupid posts over there so he brought it to general.

    Discussions are great. I'm all for it. This isn't going to be one.

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    Lol. I guess being "owned" to you must mean being disagreed with by a small group of people with a differing opinion. I brougt this poll here, because a circle jerk of e-bikers do not represent mountain bikers, and I want to know what those that understand trail maintenance and access issues think.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Lol. I guess being "owned" to you must mean being disagreed with by a small group of people with a differing opinion. I brougt this poll here, because a circle jerk of e-bikers do not represent mountain bikers, and I want to know what those that understand trail maintenance and access issues think.
    Yes. Owned. You presented a false fact and were corrected. You took your ball and went home. You weren't getting the answers you wanted so you changed the audience.

    Ebike BS goes in the ebike forum.

    Having a poll in General is not going to affect any land use advocates.

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    You must be new here. This subject has been beat to death on the ebike forum. Beat. To. Death. The OP was getting owned for stupid posts over there so he brought it to general.

    Discussions are great. I'm all for it. This isn't going to be one.

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    Lol. Yeah, Iím new. Should all topics be cleared by you first?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmb65 View Post
    Lol. Yeah, Iím new. Should all topics be cleared by you first?
    Never said it had to be. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

    I just said this is pointless and won't decide anything. It's only going to rehash what's already been fought over for years.

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Yes. Owned. You presented a false fact and were corrected. You took your ball and went home. You weren't getting the answers you wanted so you changed the audience.

    Ebike BS goes in the ebike forum.

    Having a poll in General is not going to affect any land use advocates.

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    What fact was that?

    Also, I didn't take my "ball" anywhere. I'm still fighting the good fight over in that motorcycle forum.

    Finally, presenting land managers with public opinion polls such as this can absolutely have an effect on trail access and user perception. Keep trying, though. They need guys like you on the e-bike advocacy side.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Never said it had to be. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

    I just said this is pointless and won't decide anything. It's only going to rehash what's already been fought over for years.

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    When you can't win with intelligence, try insults, right? Nobody's trying to decide anything, here. It's just a poll, right?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    What fact was that?

    Also, I didn't take my "ball" anywhere. I'm still fighting the good fight over in that motorcycle forum.

    Finally, presenting land managers with public opinion polls such as this can absolutely have an effect on trail access and user perception. Keep trying, though. They need guys like you on the e-bike advocacy side.
    Cute. Read up. You have no idea who's side I'm on or what role I play.

    Go ahead and present us with the results of your scientific poll.

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  34. #34
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    Pretty sure being a dick on an internet forum isn't going to sway anybody either.


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Never said it had to be. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

    I just said this is pointless and won't decide anything. It's only going to rehash what's already been fought over for years.

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    Dude, whatís your deal? Do your attempts to belittle me make you feel big and important? Smart and clever? Or are you just a dick?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Should be allowed on some trails. Motorcycles are not allowed on ANY trails within 100 miles of here due to noise. There is no reason to be that restrictive on ebikes.
    yes there is, and if your unable to reach the appropriate conclusion as to why, well......
    I get that you hate them. That isn't a good reason.
    Some of our local trails DO allow ebikes (but not motos). Seems to be working out OK.
    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jcd46 View Post
    Double D
    and some...me likey
    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Let em go build their own trails.
    or join the dirt bike crowd.
    "D" requires that motos be allowed anywhere ebikes are allowed, so it would preclude the ''build their own trails" option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    You must be new here. This subject has been beat to death on the ebike forum. Beat. To. Death. The OP was getting owned for stupid posts over there so he brought it to general.

    Discussions are great. I'm all for it. This isn't going to be one.

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    There's an ebike forum?

    Sounds lame and angry.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post

    "D" requires that motos be allowed anywhere ebikes are allowed, so it would preclude the ''build their own trails" option.

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    Uhmmm, no. It confines motorized bicycles to motorized trails. Thanks for playing.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    "D" requires that motos be allowed anywhere ebikes are allowed, so it would preclude the ''build their own trails" option.
    Uhmmm, no. It confines motorized bicycles to motorized trails. Thanks for playing.
    How is that different? If ebikers build their own trails, they would have to be "motorized" (allow motorcycles) or they would not be allowed to ride them under "D".

    "Who built the trail" matters less than you imagine. One of the most popular mtb spots around here is a trail system that was originally built by and for dirt bikes. They are now banned there.

  40. #40
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    My personal opinion is i hate them they should be banned and it'd be great if they could be un-invented, but I also understand that there is possibly a place for them, ie people who are unable to ride normally, old, disabled, sick and if that allows those people to get out and about then great... problem is it seems that these arnt the people buying them, its more I can just go farther and faster, which to me defeats the point of them... or maybe it is the point.
    All the gear and no idea.

  41. #41
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    I was initially against them. Then I rode one, and I have a friend that owns one and have watched him on the trails. At least with the Specialized implementation (I am not an e-bike expert; however, the one I rode is Spec and my buddy owns a spec so I'll just talk about what I know regarding it) it's a pedal assist. It's not like you're riding a motorcycle that powers itself. That system matches the power output of the riders inputs (up to certain thresholds).

    So watching my friend on his bike - it's not like he's out there "braappp brapping" and tearing up the trail. He's simply riding at about the same pace as the faster guys in our group. Sure they're doing it unassisted, but they're all moving at the same pace.

    Having seen a friend on the trails with them, and ridden their flat bar road bike (which was a blast btw), I really don't have a problem with e-bikes.
    :wq

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humpy View Post
    There's an ebike forum?

    Sounds lame and angry.
    Yes, for the 'pro' crowd.

    D
    Stick around if you're housebroken...

  43. #43
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    In a not very far future , loads and lots and a whole lot more type of vehicle are gonna be battery powered , so let's keep the "human powered vs Motor powered" way to separate different type of vehicles.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Pretty sure being a dick on an internet forum isn't going to sway anybody either.


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    Oh, I don't know about that. Being a dick has pretty well swayed people into believing that, yes, I really am a dick.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by scaryfast View Post
    I'm going with what my ex gf always wanted. The D.
    What's she doing now?

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  46. #46
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    C.

    Long time MTB rider, builder and maintainer of trails.
    I know a ton of trails where I can't for the life of me see what the BFD about low powered PAS ebikes is, as long as they are always kept a separate and distinct user group from mountain bikes.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    Yes. Owned. You presented a false fact and were corrected. You took your ball and went home. You weren't getting the answers you wanted so you changed the audience.

    Ebike BS goes in the ebike forum.

    Having a poll in General is not going to affect any land use advocates.

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    I was actually interested to see this poll not in the e-bike forum in the hopes of getting results from a broader spectrum of forum users...fwiw. I rarely venture in to e-bile forum.


    edit: hahaha, e-bile was a legitimate typo but does a good job of conveying my feelings on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    I was initially against them. Then I rode one, and I have a friend that owns one and have watched him on the trails. At least with the Specialized implementation (I am not an e-bike expert; however, the one I rode is Spec and my buddy owns a spec so I'll just talk about what I know regarding it) it's a pedal assist. It's not like you're riding a motorcycle that powers itself. That system matches the power output of the riders inputs (up to certain thresholds).

    So watching my friend on his bike - it's not like he's out there "braappp brapping" and tearing up the trail. He's simply riding at about the same pace as the faster guys in our group. Sure they're doing it unassisted, but they're all moving at the same pace.

    Having seen a friend on the trails with them, and ridden their flat bar road bike (which was a blast btw), I really don't have a problem with e-bikes.
    This is my stance. I started hating them, then rode a few and talked to people who had ridden a bunch... It seems that all the haters just haven't ridden them and have no clue what they're talking about.

    To be even more blunt; I'm a trail builder/maintainer/advocate and I see absolutely zero issues with e-bikes on my trails. They're not going to create more damage, more user conflicts, or even more crowds. The limiting factor will always be the rider; you can't go fast on my local trails just because you have a motor... Trying to go faster than your skills allow will always end badly.

    That's why I laugh at all the hate from the endurbro crowd on Pinkbike; an inconsiderate rider on a regular pedal bike is far more concerning to me than even a moderately considerate rider on an e-bike. Berm blasting bros on pedal bikes calling e-bikes detrimental to trails is laughable.

    (All that said, if my land manager wants to ban them that's not a problem for me... I'm not gonna waste my energy fighting for or against them.)

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    To be even more blunt; I'm a trail builder/maintainer/advocate and I see absolutely zero issues with e-bikes on my trails. They're not going to create more damage, more user conflicts, or even more crowds. The limiting factor will always be the rider; you can't go fast on my local trails just because you have a motor... Trying to go faster than your skills allow will always end badly.

    I don't think there's any way that you or anyone else can predict the future of ebikes or their potential impact(s) with any real accuracy. Also there are many trail segments here where you could fly if you had more power. Not everywhere is the same and for that reason it makes sense (to me anyway) to separate them legally but also allow flexibility to accommodate local circumstances.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I don't think there's any way that you or anyone else can predict the future of ebikes or their potential impact(s) with any real accuracy. Also there are many trail segments here where you could fly if you had more power. Not everywhere is the same and for that reason it makes sense (to me anyway) to separate them legally but also allow flexibility to accommodate local circumstances.
    If you understand what they can and can't do it helps, many don't seem to have that basic understanding before complaining. If you're referring specifically to trail damage, I do believe I can speak to that; they won't damage trails any more than a regular bike and basically not at all if ridden responsibly (just like regular bikes).

    Totally agreed about local issues. This thread said 'your local trails' so I responded accordingly. Similarly to my parenthetical disclaimer in my last post, I don't really care if anyone bans them... I just personally don't see any need around my area.

    What I don't see enough people saying is 'a-holes will be a-holes, they don't need a motor to accomplish that.' Most of the arguments I see against e-bikes work more effectively as arguments against a-holes on our trails than e-bikes.

  51. #51
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    Anyone else who can tell the future?

    I haven't laughed enough at this site lately.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Also there are many trail segments here where you could fly if you had more power.
    On the Specialized Turbo MTBs the pedal assist cuts out at a speed of 20mph. So once you hit 20 mph you're pedaling a 45 lb rig with no assist. The difference is immediately noticeable and significant.
    :wq

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    On the Specialized Turbo MTBs the pedal assist cuts out at a speed of 20mph. So once you hit 20 mph you're pedaling a 45 lb rig with no assist. The difference is immediately noticeable and significant.
    And in the meantime, you've hit 20mph.

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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    And in the meantime, you've hit 20mph.

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    Exactly! ...and the effort is minimal. I was impressed. Impressed enough to believe they don't belong on multi use trails.
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    D. Banned locally. Don't care if you have a throttle, pedal assist, or any other mechanism of power delivery.
    Does you bike have a motor?
    If yes, go away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    C.

    Long time MTB rider, builder and maintainer of trails.
    I know a ton of trails where I can't for the life of me see what the BFD about low powered PAS ebikes is, as long as they are always kept a separate and distinct user group from mountain bikes.
    Seems a slippery slope once that door gets opened though. 250, 750, 2,500 watts? IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    On the Specialized Turbo MTBs the pedal assist cuts out at a speed of 20mph. So once you hit 20 mph you're pedaling a 45 lb rig with no assist. The difference is immediately noticeable and significant.
    Unless you get a mod or over ride code or such, already out there, gets you 25-30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Seems a slippery slope once that door gets opened though. 250, 750, 2,500 watts? IMHO.
    Could be. I'm not one of those guys with a crystal ball.
    Most of my local trails could handle even the higher powered versions IMHO.
    Hell, at least half the trails in the nearest State Forest were originally moto trails, and could likely handle 10-20 times what even a high-power e-bike puts out, all day long.

    And to reiterate what others have mentioned, I'm talking specifically about MY LOCAL trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    And in the meantime, you've hit 20mph.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    What's your point? I hit 20 mph on some singletrack last weekend and I'm out of shape riding a non-powered bike.
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    What's your point? I hit 20 mph on some singletrack last weekend and I'm out of shape riding a non-powered bike.
    Are you trying to be obtuse?

    Yes, a normal bike can hit 20. It's rare and you're going downhill or pedaling your heart out.

    An ebike can do 20 on flat ground and even sight inclines.



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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    What's your point? I hit 20 mph on some singletrack last weekend and I'm out of shape riding a non-powered bike.
    Anybody hitting 20mph on the singletrack around here is going to the hospital pretty much immediately, motor or no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Anybody hitting 20mph on the singletrack around here is going to the hospital pretty much immediately, motor or no.
    That sounds like one of those situations that regulates itself right?
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    That sounds like one of those situations that regulates itself right?
    Yeah, pretty much.
    Trees, rocks, and twisties are great speed filters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    On the Specialized Turbo MTBs the pedal assist cuts out at a speed of 20mph. So once you hit 20 mph you're pedaling a 45 lb rig with no assist. The difference is immediately noticeable and significant.
    Ha ha. Dude. I'm not really against E-bikes (I just don't see why we're discussing them on a bicycle forum) but almost nobody I know comes even close to hitting 20 MPH on a trail except if they are heading downhill. Not saying it can't be done but if you can hit 20 MPH on a flat section of trail you probably don't need an Ebike.

    I'm no slouch but I can barely hit 20 MPH on the road.

    So if you're motoring along on your Specialized Turbo and you find yourself pedaling a 45 pound rig...just stop pedaling for a second or two, drop down to 20MPH (like a boss) and carry on.

    My Surely Pugsley was probably close to 45 pounds. I had no trouble pedaling it.

    I want to reiterate: I'm not actually against Ebikes. Mountain biking is such a lonely sport in Lousiana that I would be thrilled to see anybody out in the woods. And our trails can survive an eBike or two. But why we discuss them like they are bicycles...starting with that rag, "Mountain Bike Action," this site, and now the IMBA... escapes me.
    Last edited by Ailuropoda; 1 Week Ago at 03:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Ha But why we discuss them like they are bicycles...starting with that rag, "Mountain Bike Action," this site, and now the IMBA... escapes me.
    FWIW, the disctinction between ebikes and mountain bikes is pretty strictly maintained in the e-bike subforum here. They are not the same thing. Conflating the two would be terrible for mtb access. As long as they stand or fall on their own merits and are considered a separate user group though, I don't really care about them one way or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    I don't think there's any way that you or anyone else can predict the future of ebikes or their potential impact(s) with any real accuracy.
    While that's true of the whole 'slippery slope' argument, I thought we were discussing e-bikes as they currently exist. I can accurately predict how they will affect my local trails because I've ridden them and work at a shop selling them so I think I have a good grasp of their capabilities and how they appeal to riders (hint; most only see the price tag.)

    I tend to dislike 'slippery slope' arguments as they defend against possibilities that may never come to be by barring opportunities that currently exist. Why not just deal with those issues when they actually happen?

    If anyone can show evidence of issues then it's time to discuss how to rectify them, but right now those crying that I'm 'predicting the future' are doing the exact same as me, just from the other side of the fence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    While that's true of the whole 'slippery slope' argument, I thought we were discussing e-bikes as they currently exist. I can accurately predict how they will affect my local trails because I've ridden them and work at a shop selling them so I think I have a good grasp of their capabilities and how they appeal to riders (hint; most only see the price tag.)

    I tend to dislike 'slippery slope' arguments as they defend against possibilities that may never come to be by barring opportunities that currently exist. Why not just deal with those issues when they actually happen?

    If anyone can show evidence of issues then it's time to discuss how to rectify them, but right now those crying that I'm 'predicting the future' are doing the exact same as me, just from the other side of the fence.
    Yup.

    I remember the same BS arguments being used to try to justify denying us MTB trails locally. Tens of thousands of crazed mountain bikers speeding everywhere, wildlife and children will be getting run over left and right, massive erosion will lead to enormous lawsuits, vandalism and litter will be rampant, and of course, mountain bikers just aren't good people to begin with.

    Some of you guys are just HOH's on wheels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    If anyone can show evidence of issues then it's time to discuss how to rectify them, but right now those crying that I'm 'predicting the future' are doing the exact same as me, just from the other side of the fence.

    Well I'm certainly not attempting to predict the future, I'm saying (as always) that they should be legislated separately from bicycles precisely because the future of ebikes is unpredictable, and giving them automatic free reign wherever bicycles can go isn't fair to existing user groups. IMHO.

    As for the slippery slope, long ago many nature enthusiasts were adamantly opposed to allowing bicycles on non-motorized trails because they were concerned that it was "a slippery slope" that could lead to further relaxing of restrictions on trails. Now that some states are adopting laws that classify electric bikes the same as bicycles it's pretty hard to make a case that they were wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Some of you guys are just HOH's on wheels.
    The rise of American authoritarianism...

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ism-in-america

    I just put 'em on ignore. The more they repeat their hate/intolerance, the more it sounds better to them.

    The history of these types goes way back. Was reading about Red Flag traffic laws a short while ago, which is related to the trail access issue.

    "The most infamous of the Red Flag Laws was enacted in Pennsylvania circa 1896, when legislators unanimously passed a bill through both houses of the state legislature, which would require all motorists piloting their "horseless carriages", upon chance encounters with cattle or livestock to (1) immediately stop the vehicle, (2) "immediately and as rapidly as possible ... disassemble the automobile", and (3) "conceal the various components out of sight, behind nearby bushes" until equestrian or livestock is sufficiently pacified."
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Well I'm certainly not attempting to predict the future, I'm saying (as always) that they should be legislated separately from bicycles precisely because the future of ebikes is unpredictable, and giving them automatic free reign wherever bicycles can go isn't fair to existing user groups. IMHO.

    As for the slippery slope, long ago many nature enthusiasts were adamantly opposed to allowing bicycles on non-motorized trails because they were concerned that it was "a slippery slope" that could lead to further relaxing of restrictions on trails. Now that some states are adopting laws that classify electric bikes the same as bicycles it's pretty hard to make a case that they were wrong.
    I'm still waiting for someone to provide some actual reasons e-bikes shouldn't be allowed on the trails. The only reason I can genuinely come up with is a completely selfish one, which is that I don't want to make it easier for people to get out and ride. We have limited trails to ride on as is, that are already congested (at least in my area), and making it easier for people to ride will increase the amount of people on my already congested trails. I don't think saying "I want less users on the trails." is going to convince any land managers though, especially here in California where they pull in $10/vehicle for parking alone.
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Well I'm certainly not attempting to predict the future, I'm saying (as always) that they should be legislated separately from bicycles precisely because the future of ebikes is unpredictable, and giving them automatic free reign wherever bicycles can go isn't fair to existing user groups. IMHO.

    As for the slippery slope, long ago many nature enthusiasts were adamantly opposed to allowing bicycles on non-motorized trails because they were concerned that it was "a slippery slope" that could lead to further relaxing of restrictions on trails. Now that some states are adopting laws that classify electric bikes the same as bicycles it's pretty hard to make a case that they were wrong.
    This is an example of well reasoned argument.
    I agree 100%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    I'm still waiting for someone to provide some actual reasons e-bikes shouldn't be allowed on the trails.

    Since you quoted my post you should know that I never said they shouldn't be allowed on trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Since you quoted my post you should know that I never said they shouldn't be allowed on trails.
    I see what you're saying. You still didn't provide any reasoning though. And what slippery slope are you referring to? An e-bike is still a bike. It's not a car or a motorcycle. What restrictions have been relaxed by allowing them?
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Well I'm certainly not attempting to predict the future, I'm saying (as always) that they should be legislated separately from bicycles precisely because the future of ebikes is unpredictable, and giving them automatic free reign wherever bicycles can go isn't fair to existing user groups. IMHO.

    As for the slippery slope, long ago many nature enthusiasts were adamantly opposed to allowing bicycles on non-motorized trails because they were concerned that it was "a slippery slope" that could lead to further relaxing of restrictions on trails. Now that some states are adopting laws that classify electric bikes the same as bicycles it's pretty hard to make a case that they were wrong.
    I guess I haven't followed closely enough, but I wasn't aware they are being classified as bicycles rather than simply allowed in places where bicycles are allowed... That makes no sense to me. I have no issue allowing them on my local trails, but I want the rule to say 'e-bikes are allowed' and not 'e-bikes are the same as human-powered bicycles.' That way, as I said, should issues arise they can be addressed.

    Again, with regards to the slippery slope, it's just a non-issue... We can still discuss it now. Hell, they revoke access that bikes used to possess in some cases. The idea that we should bar all new concepts (thinking about 'slippery slope' arguments broadly here) because they might have bad consequences is silly. We can always circle back and review it later, as we are doing with e-bikes now. Some will get it right, some will get it wrong; that's just life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    The only reason I can genuinely come up with is a completely selfish one, which is that I don't want to make it easier for people to get out and ride.
    I do occasionally have this fear... But then I realize it just won't happen until the cost of e-bikes comes way, way down. Even then, the cost will likely still be the same relative to pedal only bikes which will scare a lot of people away. (Let's say capable mountain e-bikes drop to $1,000 as an average, it just doesn't seem possible for that to happen unless capable mountain bikes are under $500 so the public will still see the e-bike as a huge increase in cost to try a new sport.)

    Anyone who has worked at a shop knows that when Joe Schmo walks in a bike shop he looks at the lowest end hybrid and says 'holy crap, a $500 bike!?!?!?' The idea that the general public is suddenly gonna all drop $2,000+ on an e-bike and go crowd up your local trails is silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    I see what you're saying. You still didn't provide any reasoning though. And what slippery slope are you referring to? An e-bike is still a bike. It's not a car or a motorcycle. What restrictions have been relaxed by allowing them?

    I disagree here. It's got a motor. How is that a bicycle? Is a moped a bicycle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    I see what you're saying. You still didn't provide any reasoning though. And what slippery slope are you referring to? An e-bike is still a bike. It's not a car or a motorcycle. What restrictions have been relaxed by allowing them?

    Provide reasoning for what? I'm not anti-ebike.

    I thought I was clear about the ss analogy, once upon a time a deal was struck that bikes would be allowed on the basis that they are non-motorized vehicles. Now motorized vehicles are being allowed on some trails because they are officially classified as being bicycles, and non-motorized.
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    Now I'm becoming anti e-bike just on a semantics basis; how can something that possesses a part called the 'motor' be 'non-motorized?'

    We can discuss trail damage, user conflicts and all that fun stuff all you like; I will not debate whether or not an e-bike is motorized. It is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Now I'm becoming anti e-bike just on a semantics basis; how can something that possesses a part called the 'motor' be 'non-motorized?'

    That's where I've been for awhile now, pedal assist is somehow different than motorized? I hate lawyer-speak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    I disagree here. It's got a motor. How is that a bicycle? Is a moped a bicycle?
    In many states the two are legally defined and they are not the same. So, no, a moped is no a bicycle. It's also not an e-bike. However, an e-bike is still a bicycle.
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    In many states the two are legally defined and they are not the same. So, no, a moped is no a bicycle. It's also not an e-bike. However, an e-bike is still a bicycle.
    Sure, a motorized bicycle... Which is where the term motorcycle came from. So it's a motorcycle?

    Since their creation, bicycles have not had a motor and that has been integral to their definition. To say otherwise is a thinly-veiled attempt to deceive, which is clearly what you're doing. I'm sure that works well among e-bike enthusiasts, but it literally just cost your cause my support... It will have the same effect on most so I'd try another tact if it were me.

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    Actually reading and understanding the statutes being referred to helps cut through the semantic BS that gets thrown around. Also, understanding where and to what those statutes apply is important.

    E-bike proponents who lack this clarity love to grasp on to non-pertinent codes and say "they're legally the exact same thing as a bicycle, so I can go anywhere a bicycle is allowed to go". Simply not true.

    An e-bike is an e-bike, a bicycle is a bicycle. Not the same thing; the motor is obviously the distinguishing factor. That is a common sense approach. Of course, being the internet, there will be dorks that drag the whole discussion into a pointless, endless semantic rathole. Those are the guys that kill off the possibility of any actual productive and meaningful discussions IMHO. Maybe make a separate thread called 'Worthless E-bike Semantic Argument'. Probably end up with 30 pages of the same few people arguing in circles about intangibles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Actually reading and understanding the statutes being referred to helps cut through the semantic BS that gets thrown around. Also, understanding where and to what those statutes apply is important.

    E-bike proponents who lack this clarity love to grasp on to non-pertinent codes and say "they're legally the exact same thing as a bicycle, so I can go anywhere a bicycle is allowed to go". Simply not true.

    An e-bike is an e-bike, a bicycle is a bicycle. Not the same thing; the motor is obviously the distinguishing factor. That is a common sense approach. Of course, being the internet, there will be dorks that drag the whole discussion into a pointless, endless semantic rathole. Those are the guys that kill off the possibility of any actual productive and meaningful discussions IMHO. Maybe make a separate thread called 'Worthless E-bike Semantic Argument'. Probably end up with 30 pages of the same few people arguing in circles about intangibles.
    I'm not really pro/against e-bikes, but I still haven't seen anyone point out the actual reasons one shouldn't be on the trail other than "it has a motor". Simply saying "It has a motor" is also ignoring some distinguishing points. It's not that black and white. It's a pedal assist. Legally it has limits as to how powerful the motor can be, in order to still be considered a "bicycle". It also has limits as to how fast the motor can be allowed to assist. It also requires that the ebike have functioning pedals (again because it's a pedal assist).

    So what is the actual reason (or reasons) that an ebike shouldn't be allowed on the trail?
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Actually reading and understanding the statutes being referred to helps cut through the semantic BS that gets thrown around. Also, understanding where and to what those statutes apply is important.

    E-bike proponents who lack this clarity love to grasp on to non-pertinent codes and say "they're legally the exact same thing as a bicycle, so I can go anywhere a bicycle is allowed to go". Simply not true.

    An e-bike is an e-bike, a bicycle is a bicycle. Not the same thing; the motor is obviously the distinguishing factor. That is a common sense approach. Of course, being the internet, there will be dorks that drag the whole discussion into a pointless, endless semantic rathole. Those are the guys that kill off the possibility of any actual productive and meaningful discussions IMHO. Maybe make a separate thread called 'Worthless E-bike Semantic Argument'. Probably end up with 30 pages of the same few people arguing in circles about intangibles.
    If that becomes the argument for e-bikes then I will become a staunch opponent to them.

    If however, a reasonable approach is used that admits they are different but focuses on what real risks those differences pose and how to mitigate them then I will support them when appropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    I'm not really pro/against e-bikes, but I still haven't seen anyone point out the actual reasons one shouldn't be on the trail other than "it has a motor". Simply saying "It has a motor" is also ignoring some distinguishing points. It's not that black and white. It's a pedal assist. Legally it has limits as to how powerful the motor can be, in order to still be considered a "bicycle". It also has limits as to how fast the motor can be allowed to assist. It also requires that the ebike have functioning pedals (again because it's a pedal assist).

    So what is the actual reason (or reasons) that an ebike shouldn't be allowed on the trail?
    Neither of us has said they shouldn't be... But one would be that if bicycles with motors start getting called bicycles then it absolutely has eroded the intent of allowing bicycles on trails. As a liaison for my local trail system, I will not allow that ambiguation to occur; I'll simply ban them to avoid it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Now I'm becoming anti e-bike just on a semantics basis; how can something that possesses a part called the 'motor' be 'non-motorized?'

    We can discuss trail damage, user conflicts and all that fun stuff all you like; I will not debate whether or not an e-bike is motorized. It is.
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    Motors?! In the forest?!

    *has flashbacks where motors terrorized and traumatized me in my past*

    *scary chain saws, angle grinders, cars, and unpredictable humans all lunging at me in make-believe scene*

    *regain consciousness and feel old scars twitch with pain*

    Joking aside, kind of reminds me of the issue of dogs on trails, beach, and other recreation areas. The worst arguments are always the personal opinions and extremely limited anecdotal evidence. "My dogs, and all the other dogs I've seen, were all good boys and would never attack others. I always keep them under control and I scoop up their poop. I don't know about others."

    E-bikes on your local trails.  Yay or nay?-zrgqop8.png

    The whole slippery slope argument is simply predicting that there will be people who are excessively foolish, don't know how to play nice, nor follow the rules. If this behavior threatens the well-being of the others, it should be prevented. It's like saying you can increase the speed limit from 55 to 65, since people already go that fast and it was tolerated for the most part, but there's the slippery slope that people will go 10-15 mph over that too, and it's more likely that there will be people going over 100 (perhaps citing that cars become tuned to go faster according to the new rules).

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    Fearing the slippery slope is a trait of authoritarianism: distrust and a desire for order. Authoritarianism is an extreme fringe of political belief. They believe in things such as it not being fair to those who were here before if newcomers were granted the same liberties as them. They don't believe that people have integrity, nor will be nice to others, etc. They would prefer if it were demanded out of everyone. If most laws were made based on the slippery slope argument, there would be basically very little freedom and people would be ruled by fear of prosecution, grandfathering a certain class to have special rights/liberties/immunities. They'd have no right to challenge rules of set by those before them, even if the rules were obviously favoring a certain group of people for little rational reason.

    E-bikes on your local trails.  Yay or nay?-political_compass.png

    People with authoritarian traits apparently feel threatened by foreign competition and want a strong leader to set these laws to protect their interests. There's all sorts of arguments for a whole range of things, from dogs to cars. Once the laws are passed that recognize the "threat" to these people's interest, these types can have peace, tuning out the arguments and enjoy their status quo. No more conspiracy theories about the oil industry to sell more gas and the others benefiting from more sales/taxes supporting them, no more talking about speed limits also increasing in cities and residential areas as some sort of ripple or trickle-down effect, no more talk about safety concerns. Do American hikers and mtn bikers even know about MX riders, what their rides are like now, or where they ride? Probably still trail destroying jerks riding on even more powerful bikes, on some MX-specific track, fire roads, or in some other country, right? Don't care as long as they're braaping somewhere far away enough that you can't hear them? xD

    Dogs get banned for objective reasoning. Among some reasons are that their poop spreads disease, and their scent lingers and disturbs wildlife. They're not banned federally, or at the BLM or USFS level. The rules are quite mixed, usually allowing them unless otherwise marked. This judgment seems very accomodating, considering the lengthy list of reasons that ban them.

    What's with the pre-emptive call for legislation for ebikes? It's like the definition of prejudice. This xenophobia, this intolerance, this way of thinking... is this not toxic behavior? Kind of scary when these types are in a high public office position... erase all the reasons that might be self-damning to mtb from the arguments for banning ebikes, and all that's left of the argument seems to hinge off the interpretation of the "no motorized vehicles" signage and the interpretation of what an ebike is.
    Last edited by Varaxis; 1 Week Ago at 04:35 PM. Reason: big re-write to clarify points
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  86. #86
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    [QUOTE=nachomc;13534582]I'm not really pro/against e-bikes, but I still haven't seen anyone point out the actual reasons one shouldn't be on the trail other than "it has a motor". Simply saying "It has a motor" is also ignoring some distinguishing points. It's not that black and white. [QUOTE]

    I agree that simply saying 'it has a motor' isn't much of an argument for banning them completely from all multi-use trails.

    But, it IS enough to clearly distinguish it from a bicycle.
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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    If that becomes the argument for e-bikes then I will become a staunch opponent to them.

    If however, a reasonable approach is used that admits they are different but focuses on what real risks those differences pose and how to mitigate them then I will support them when appropriate.
    Exactly where I am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
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    Motors?! In the forest?!

    *has flashbacks where motors terrorized and traumatized me and in my prior life*

    *scary chain saws, angle grinders, cars, and unpredictable humans all lunging at me in make-believe scene*

    *regain consciousness and feel old scars twitch with pain*

    Joking aside, kind of reminds me of the issue of dogs on trails, beach, and other recreation areas. The worse arguments are always the personal opinions and extremely limited anecdotal evidence. "My dogs and all the dog's I've seen were good boys and would never attack others. I always keep them under control and I scoop up their poop. I don't know about others."

    The whole slippery slope argument is simply saying that people don't know how to play nice nor follow the rules. You can increase the speed limit from 55 to 65, since people already go that fast, but there's the slippery slope that people will go 10-15 mph over that too, and more likely there will be people going over 100 (perhaps citing that cars become tuned to go faster according to the new rules). It's a trait of distrust, and wanting of order and leadership.

    Again, back to authoritarianism. Not fair for those who were here before. Don't believe that people will have integrity, be nice to others, etc...

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    I don't disagree... But this post is so philosophical I can't even tell what you're trying to say about the current topic.

  89. #89
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    Here in Utah there are a huge number of trails for motorized vehicles. When I'm too old to mountain bike, I'm going to get a nice ebike and go ride them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    Here in Utah there are a huge number of trails for motorized vehicles. When I'm too old to mountain bike, I'm going to get a nice ebike and go ride them.
    Why not ride 'em now? Do you have some sort of prejudice or bias that drives this belief? Are you even serious about planning this? What makes you too old to mountain bike, yet not too old to handle even more power? Is it something that's better enjoyed when you're old, or remotely enjoyable on a vehicle the MX trails weren't optimized for?

    I'll tell you from experience that the MX singletrack definitely didn't take pedal clearance into account. Often there's a lot of brush (bushwhacking), and drainage issues with big mud puddles. Go after a rain or on a weekend, and I'll have guys on bikes weighing at least 5x more passing at much higher speeds than the bicycle-like speeds I'm going, who can't hear a thing I say. I just hear them and get out of the way and watch as they brute through something that I'll have trouble getting through, especially when restarting from a complete stop.

    Descending on MX trails, both singletrack and fireroads, is way more physically demanding. I thought it was just a bunch of fireroads, and cruised around with a thumb injury, and my weak grip was totally unable to hold on. The holes and ruts are huge. If I am to avoid them, I have to take some rather rough lines. I legit felt like I should be in a full-face, roost guard, stormtrooper leg armor, and boots.
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    Simply saying "It has a motor" is also ignoring some distinguishing points. It's not that black and white. It's a pedal assist.
    Actually, it is exactly that black and white.
    This thread went from amusing anecdotes to a sad lack of comprehension fast.

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    ...
    Last edited by TheDwayyo; 1 Week Ago at 05:17 PM.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    I'm not really pro/against e-bikes, but I still haven't seen anyone point out the actual reasons one shouldn't be on the trail other than "it has a motor".
    I wouldn't let a Motocross on my MTB trails , would you ?

    And why am I so Close minded ?

    It's called "Motor"

    There you go , you have a reason.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    When I'm too old to mountain bike, I'm going to get a nice ebike and go ride them.
    Better get on it now before it's too late. As a mountain biker of 25+ years, I got into riding motorcycles a few years ago with the thought that it was easier, and I should figure it out now to enjoy later when mountain biking was too hard. To my surprise, riding dirt bikes is really freaking hard. I burn the same number of calories per hour, and it requires way more skill and muscle strength. I would imagine e-bikes are going to be similar. The only thing that changes is speed and distance covered.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Why not ride 'em now?
    I don't want to, now.
    But yes, I'm serious. When I'm too weak to mountain bike the way I want to, I'll get an ebike and go out on easy trails.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Better get on it now before it's too late. As a mountain biker of 25+ years, I got into riding motorcycles a few years ago with the thought that it was easier, and I should figure it out now to enjoy later when mountain biking was too hard. To my surprise, riding dirt bikes is really freaking hard. I burn the same number of calories per hour, and it requires way more skill and muscle strength. I would imagine e-bikes are going to be similar. The only thing that changes is speed and distance covered.


    .
    This is absurd.
    If it takes 200 watts to get up a trail and I have to supply all of it, getting on a 100 watt ebike makes the same trail, at the same pace half as hard. I'm not sure why that would be hard to comprehend.

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    I voted D, thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSU Alum View Post
    This is absurd.
    If it takes 200 watts to get up a trail and I have to supply all of it, getting on a 100 watt ebike makes the same trail, at the same pace half as hard. I'm not sure why that would be hard to comprehend.
    Did you miss the part where he differentiated between speed and distance covered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    I wouldn't let a Motocross on my MTB trails , would you ?

    And why am I so Close minded ?

    It's called "Motor"

    There you go , you have a reason.
    Semantics isn't a good reason.

    Not being able to distinguish between a motocross bike and a PAS e-bike also calls your judgement into question IMHO. Not to mention that there are many places where mountain bikes and motos share trails, including some of the best known 'MTB' trails in the world. Not saying it would work on every trail, but thinking it can never work IS closed minded, as well as ignorant of reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Semantics isn't a good reason.

    Not being able to distinguish between a motocross bike and a PAS e-bike also calls your judgement into question IMHO. Not to mention that there are many places where mountain bikes and motos share trails, including some of the best known 'MTB' trails in the world. Not saying it would work on every trail, but thinking it can never work IS closed minded, as well as ignorant of reality.
    Even the heaviest e-bike is not going to crush rocks like a motorcycle will on a trail. It's pretty obvious when a motorcycle has been on one. Half of the rocks are strewn all over the place, chipped, cracked, and ready to slice your tires up. So as far as actual trail damage is concerned, there is no comparison. I could care less if an e-bike is on the trail (I think they are pretty cool) but I cringe when I see a motorcycle on one. Oddly I've never seen a real dirt bike on a trail in years, just street motorcycles that I assume are 250-500 cc, and then I see dirt bikes locally going up and down the street lol. Access issues and trail closings are another story (I'm lucky, where I go no one cares what type of bicycle someone is on, but there are 10 inch-high bars to prevent motorcycles from getting on the trail).
    Murphy's Law: the worse the access, the better the trail.

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