Poll: E-bikes on your local mountain bike trails?

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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by richj8990 View Post
    Even the heaviest e-bike is not going to crush rocks like a motorcycle will on a trail. It's pretty obvious when a motorcycle has been on one. Half of the rocks are strewn all over the place, chipped, cracked, and ready to slice your tires up. So as far as actual trail damage is concerned, there is no comparison.
    Interesting. I ride my motorcycle on a trail that I also ride my mountain bike on all the time. In the summer I head out and hit it at dawn as a quick out and back, and you can't even see the tracks from my tires. No "crushed rocks" or any such nonsense like that.

    I hear it all the time from both camps.....motos ruin the trails.....mtbs skid their tires and make ruts. Fact is, water is responsible for most of the "damage". I've been riding that trail for 20+ years, and it looks more or less the same today as it did twenty years ago, despite evil motor bikes and mountain bikes. What's really funny is that motos were banned for a couple of years because of a lawsuit involving a fish, and the trail degraded in that time like I've never seen, but now it's fine again. Pay no attention to the illegal trails being cut into the mountain sides all over the place by the mountain bikers.

    At the end of the day, the blame game has more to do with general dislike for the other user group than anything else. It's a shame we can't all just get along, or *gasp* work together.



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  2. #102
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    I voted "D". Then I started reading until I got to the part where it devolved into the same old tired arguments. I'd like to change my vote to "E", as in put this back where it belongs...that cesspool called the e-bike forum.

  3. #103
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    For the most part, human powered has it's limits on speed. Without any regulation on power, I don't think ebikes should be on most trails. I do think it would be ok for an exception for injured or disability. Much like a crossbow can only be used if injured or disability to hunt In a lot of states.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Interesting. I ride my motorcycle on a trail that I also ride my mountain bike on all the time. In the summer I head out and hit it at dawn as a quick out and back, and you can't even see the tracks from my tires. No "crushed rocks" or any such nonsense like that.
    .
    I let my son ride some of our MTB singletrack on his CRF100. He rides responsibly and you'd never know he was there.
    His KX, no friggin' way.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    Fearing the slippery slope is a trait of authoritarianism
    Bullshit. What if the slope you fear is increasing regimentation and regulation.

    If you want to advocate for e-bikes stick to e-bikes. If you think we need political-social-cultural enlightenment, that's another thread.

    As for ebikes, we don't know how they will affect the trails or us other users of them. For starters, the 750 watts that is being discussed is on an entirely different level from how current users ride.

    This industry / hobby is already afflicted with severe one-up-manship and escalation. I don't think we need more.

  6. #106
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    @Varaxis- unless you are in favor of unfettered access of every trail for all users you're a hypocrite.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I let my son ride some of our MTB singletrack on his CRF100. He rides responsibly and you'd never know he was there.
    His KX, no friggin' way.
    yeah, and that CRF100 makes about 7,000 watts. My dirt bike makes about 15,000, and leaves no trace. Kind of makes all this worry about bikes with 750 watts seem silly.


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  8. #108
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    I ride moto trails all the time and no crushed rock slices my tires. Also I have a lot of fun riding them, weird.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    I'm not really pro/against e-bikes, but I still haven't seen anyone point out the actual reasons one shouldn't be on the trail other than "it has a motor". Simply saying "It has a motor" is also ignoring some distinguishing points. It's not that black and white. It's a pedal assist. Legally it has limits as to how powerful the motor can be, in order to still be considered a "bicycle". It also has limits as to how fast the motor can be allowed to assist. It also requires that the ebike have functioning pedals (again because it's a pedal assist).

    So what is the actual reason (or reasons) that an ebike shouldn't be allowed on the trail?
    OK, I'll start. MA rider here. For the most part here in this state (save 6? or so places) motorized vehicles not allowed on multi use off road trails in state parks and forests. I'm guessing that's 2/3rds of the riding area in the state. Other areas are town and conservation areas, I would say most have a no motorized vehicle clause too. Lots of trail conflicts, lots of users, thats how the laws currently stand here. The motos and really the ATV's had some use, trashed the trails and got kick out. There is something to be said for human powered out on your own too.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    OK, I'll start. MA rider here. For the most part here in this state (save 6? or so places) motorized vehicles not allowed on multi use off road trails in state parks and forests. I'm guessing that's 2/3rds of the riding area in the state. Other areas are town and conservation areas, I would say most have a no motorized vehicle clause too.
    So the main reason they shouldn't be allowed on trails is because they aren't allowed on trails?

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  11. #111
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    ^^^^ Pesky laws and such. I know we have " differing" views on the subject. As to state forests and parks? Some of it may be in how the state land use was drawn up and how the rules have changed over time. And how the majority of trail users have voiced their opinions. ( hikers and dog walkers) As to conservation lands, both town and state, some have a " no motorized vehicle use" clause. And hard to change. You know the MA battle to get bike access, motorized will be a BIG hurdle to cross. Think the laws might change in regards to state lands? Time will tell, lots of issue and I'm sure lots of opposition. Same thing for some of the Fed lands, no motorized vehicles. Considering the history in MA, with the current state of affairs and rules, not seeing anything changing soon. So status quo?

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    ^^^^ Pesky laws and such. I know we have " differing" views on the subject. As to state forests and parks? Some of it may be in how the state land use was drawn up and how the rules have changed over time. And how the majority of trail users have voiced their opinions. ( hikers and dog walkers) As to conservation lands, both town and state, some have a " no motorized vehicle use" clause. And hard to change. You know the MA battle to get bike access, motorized will be a BIG hurdle to cross. Think the laws might change in regards to state lands? Time will tell, lots of issue and I'm sure lots of opposition. Same thing for some of the Fed lands, no motorized vehicles. Considering the history in MA, with the current state of affairs and rules, not seeing anything changing soon. So status quo?
    You've ridden Leominster SF right? (~4500 acre forest near me with maybe 30ish miles of singletrack along with a ton of dirt road riding, for those not from the area).

    Did you know that almost all the singletrack there was originally cut by motos (same with Groton TF)? And when the motos got banned, mainly due to some local HOHs with the ear of a particular ranger, mountain bikes were also banned along with them from all singletrack in the forest, and stayed that way for many years? Wasn't all that long ago that we even got permission to start riding it again. Many of the trails I've built in my town were on lands where we had to fight rabid wannabe eco-warriors to get anti-bike rules revised.

    "Status quo" and "because they said so" are weak ass reasons.
    MTBers in particular have historically been on the wrong side of that sort of BS.
    Not a mindset we should be supporting or subscribing to IHMO.

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  13. #113
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    I've ridden regularly with some individuals on ebikes on my local trails for a couple of years now and there's been absolutely no problems at all, I've no idea where the hysteria on this forum comes from. The high cost and technical difficulty in riding the trails means in all the cases, the ebike riders have been those who have an injury or medical condition and can't ride a normal bike so it's not clueless riders on the bikes.

    I think it's great they can still join in and enjoy the riding.

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  14. #114
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    ^^^^ OK, point taken, but it's what we have to work with currently, good or bad. I did an MBAS ride there a couple of years back, humbling to say the least. I get that status quo does not sit well with everyone, then how does one bring about change, if in fact one wants e bikes on the trails? So state lands, current rules and regs in the books, that's where it stands. I get the HOH and eco warrior drivel, what do they think of motorized vehicles, let alone" wheeled locusts" ? Conservation land is a whole 'nother ball of wax, don't see that changing. At all. Trustees of the Reservation is pretty pro bike on some of their properties, but I don't see motorized vehicles in their future, imho. Essex county green belt as well. So back to the poll from the OP: Choice D, motorized trail only. Do you see a groundswell of support or voices for e bikes where you are? Not seeing it closer to Boston at least.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    ^^^^ OK, point taken, but it's what we have to work with currently, good or bad. I did an MBAS ride there a couple of years back, humbling to say the least. I get that status quo does not sit well with everyone, then how does one bring about change, if in fact one wants e bikes on the trails? So state lands, current rules and regs in the books, that's where it stands. I get the HOH and eco warrior drivel, what do they think of motorized vehicles, let alone" wheeled locusts" ? Conservation land is a whole 'nother ball of wax, don't see that changing. At all. Trustees of the Reservation is pretty pro bike on some of their properties, but I don't see motorized vehicles in their future, imho. Essex county green belt as well. So back to the poll from the OP: Choice D, motorized trail only. Do you see a groundswell of support or voices for e bikes where you are? Not seeing it closer to Boston at least.
    None of that is really my/our concern.
    I'm not saying it's our duty to pick up the banner for e-bikes in any way, shape or form. Nor am I interested in doing so.
    But lacking any sort of substantive reason to be against them, I don't see why we should be by default. If they are found acceptable for certain trails/systems based on the same criteria every other user group is held to, who gives a damn? Besides the wannabe exercise police / purists of course, who think there should be a direct correlation between calories burned and how much access one gets to public land. Which is obviously nothing short of ridiculous.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    @Varaxis- unless you are in favor of unfettered access of every trail for all users you're a hypocrite.
    My first post was satirical. I was making fun of how people were arguing.

    - People were arguing semantics. "It has a motor". There's a sign that says no motorized vehicles. A bike is a vehicle. A human body can be used to motorize it. It's dumbing down the interpretation further. Hikers and equestrians can use this argument. This interpretation BS is what has universally banned bikes from wilderness.

    - People were citing slippery slope as a valid argument. This is also something those who are anti-mtb say. Those who have power among those making laws actually are fueled by this BS. If people feared slippery slope "what ifs", I question if America would even have constitutional rights. Is it no hypocritical to heavily rely on a slippery slope argument in one case, yet criticize the slippery slope argument when it comes to amending a wilderness bill to allow bikes?

    I laid out my stance with the dog access example. There's clear justified reasons for dogs not to be on sensitive trails that are protected, yet they're accomodated very well, rather than unjustly banned in sweeping law. How does that make me hypocritical, if I am not in favor of unfettered access of every trail for all users?

    The problem in the end is money, politics, and plain stupidity. Problems take money (time and effort) to fix. Politics is so inefficient that you question how useful it is. What if people acted individually? What if Joe Schmoe decided to help with enforcing in a non-confrontational way, putting his money into a more efficient method that solved the problem, instead of relying on politics to promote "the majority's" selfish interests? What if all the money in lobbying went into trail building instead? If I point out stupidity, such as this authoritarian perspective, or how people are influenced by fear, perhaps from cherry picked statistics and other lies (half-truths at best), do you think anyone will actually bother to fix such stupidity?

    What if I made up some scare that people who have specific kinds of sickness might be contagious to animals and plants? Ban all people, or ban the sick people? Zomg, how are you going to enforce this rule to ban the dangerously contagious sick people? They look like normal people until they show an odd symptom or leave evidence of sick dead animals and plantlife in their wake! Just one can possibly devastate the wildlife, and spread a plague to all the field mice or whatever, such as if they bring something to eat and leave their fruit peels/pits, assuming the decompose in the sun? If people are weak enough to catch a cold, wouldn't they be weak enough to catch the dangerous disease? What if the people don't know they're carrying the disease? What if this knowledge spreads and people purposely do something malicious as an act of terrorism? This is getting into slippery slope territory with all these what ifs... how can we be accomodating and just/reasonable in a case like this? That's my stance, to be accomodating and reasonable, and not being overly judgmental. The stance of others here is akin to ruling to ban all sick people and point out to something that identifies them, like you're using some sort of medicine or seeing the doctor, you're sick and therefore not allowed here! I don't want to be banned too because of you! When I get sick in the future, I will go do something that sick people should be doing, like settling into a nursing home with the terminally ill or some intensive care unit in the hospital. I don't care if your sickness is minor, you shouldn't be on the trail, since you have a sickness, period. If you hardened the F up and ditched the need for medicine like us, you won't end up with one of those more dangerous diseases. Is this not a similar pattern?

    How's this for a simple solution. Detailed signs. Rather than simply having a picture depicting a certain group, with a cross going through it, how about one that explains the reasons why a certain group is restricted:

    E-bikes on your local trails.  Yay or nay?-detailedsign.jpg

    Also somewhat related to this thread (and to make fun of online mobbing/witch hunting): Thousands Sign Counter Petition to Albemarle Woman's Call for Bi - NBC29 WVIR Charlottesville, VA News, Sports and Weather
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  17. #117
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    So the argument as it stands is, "It's got a motor but it doesn't matter because it's still a bicycle", countered by "It might be a bicycle but it still has a motor", countered by "You're all just pointlessly arguing semantics."

    Resembles every other media outlet right now...

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    So the argument as it stands is, "It's got a motor but it doesn't matter because it's still a bicycle", countered by "It might be a bicycle but it still has a motor", countered by "You're all just pointlessly arguing semantics."

    Resembles every other media outlet right now...
    Endless argument is traffic, which is ad revenue. Add in impact and drama, click-bait titles, stir up the controversy a bit with a little one-sided perspective here and there...

    I do wonder if trails could be enjoyed by all if people simply followed a common set of rules: throw up the rules of the trail and trail etiquette up as a reminder, like leave no trace, stay on the trail, explore within your ability, etc. If people broke these rules and took personal responsibility for their actions... if people were involved enough to make it seem like a community, and enforced their local rules...

    I think the whole virtual racing (on Strava) fiasco has made things a lot worse for mtb, since people ditched their common decency and people are still sensitive to its effects.
    We're all on the same ship, and it's sinking.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    So the argument as it stands is, "It's got a motor but it doesn't matter because it's still a bicycle", countered by "It might be a bicycle but it still has a motor", countered by "You're all just pointlessly arguing semantics."

    Resembles every other media outlet right now...
    You forgot "I'm personally above actually being part of this conversation, but can't help chiming in with my critiques of it anyway".
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  20. #120
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    I regularly ride with someone on a Motobecane Hal e. It hasn't caused a problem.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    I regularly ride with someone on a Motobecane Hal e. It hasn't caused a problem.
    After me criticizing narrow-minded anecdote and cherry picking statisticians... funny. xD
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaxis View Post
    After me criticizing narrow-minded anecdote and cherry picking statisticians... funny. xD
    Well, I'm mind numb, so it works.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Semantics isn't a good reason.
    I'm presently writing on an internet forum.
    It's all about semantics.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Not being able to distinguish between a motocross bike and a PAS e-bike also calls your judgement into question IMHO.
    The semantic is pretty simple: Is it 100% human powered or not.
    Very simple to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Not to mention that there are many places where mountain bikes and motos share trails, including some of the best known 'MTB' trails in the world.
    Not where I live.
    No motorcycles are allowed in MTB trails.
    And I think this is a good idea to avoid accidents , human powered vehicles will always be slower than motor powered ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    Not saying it would work on every trail, but thinking it can never work IS closed minded, as well as ignorant of reality.
    I guess we live in different realities.
    In my reality , stuff with motors attached to it are called motorized vehicle.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    human powered vehicles will always be slower than motor powered ones.
    bzzzzzt, wrong.

    On singletrack, most mountain bikers are WAY faster downhill than most motorcyclists, and average speeds on rolling single-track are pretty damn close between the two.


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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    bzzzzzt, wrong.

    On singletrack, most mountain bikers are WAY faster downhill than most motorcyclists, and average speeds on rolling single-track are pretty damn close between the two.


    .
    I've had some pretty cool rides with guys on trials motos while on an MTB. Speeds on techy terrain were comparable. Looked fun as hell too.
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    I guess we live in different realities.
    In my reality , stuff with motors attached to it are called motorized vehicle.
    Never said differently.

    So what's your point? Word games outweigh common sense?
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  27. #127
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    My point is motorized vehicles should not be allowed on MTB trails
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof View Post
    My point is motorized vehicles should not be allowed on MTB trails
    Where are these mythic "MTB trails" you speak of? Where I live we have multi-use non-motorized trails that allow for hikers, bikers, and equestrians. Some trails are hiker only, but none are mtb only.

    Motorized, and non-motorized are clearly and simply differentiated, which is why I voted D. If you're going to allow electric mopeds, why not electric motorcycles? Is it the pedals? Power rating? How do you check power output on the trail? It's just a giant can of worms that we don't need to open imho.

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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You forgot "I'm personally above actually being part of this conversation, but can't help chiming in with my critiques of it anyway".
    I'm chiming in with critiques of poor brainwashing technique.
    Conversation would mess this place up, and hasn't been allowed in years.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    I'm chiming in with critiques of poor brainwashing technique.
    Conversation would mess this place up, and hasn't been allowed in years.
    Can't argue with logic.
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Is it the pedals? Power rating?
    That's precisely what it is.
    :wq

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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    That's precisely what it is.
    No, it's the motor.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Where are these mythic "MTB trails" you speak of?
    Where I live we have multi-use non-motorized trails that allow for hikers, bikers, and equestrians. Some trails are hiker only, but none are mtb only.
    We have these too , but I ride in places where trails are MTB only.
    Lots of places are like that.
    (I don't live in the US)
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    Population density I think is an issue. I ride local trails in upstate NY and I rarely ever see anybody else. I think skidding would be worse than an electric motor spinning its wheels..

    I have made several weedwacker powered bikes for the trails and never saw anybody else..

    But given a dense population and the increased chances of some clown causing trouble in some ways..ie no personal responsibility..ya know the type..I can see where a case by case is need for setting some rules would be necessary. I personally like one way trails as that has caused me some scary moments on more used trails. Might help with the speed differential..

    My fear is it is easier to ride while high on an e-bike. Just like when atvs overtook motorcycles in off road popularity around here...had a place for the 6 pack...

    A lot of ya are anal about your fitness and discipline in life and I can see why riders of ebikes might seem as problems to be rid of.

    By the way...I have in my youth tripped and rode my dirt bike...so I am up to speed on these issues..
    Last edited by 1niceride; 1 Week Ago at 09:00 PM.
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  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    My fear is it is easier to ride while high on an e-bike. Just like when atvs overtook motorcycles in off road popularity around here...had a place for the 6 pack...
    I have room for a six pack in my MTB pack n a pinch, though I usually only pack 2 or 3. Also pretty convinced you can't be too high to ride a mountain bike.

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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Where are these mythic "MTB trails" you speak of? Where I live we have multi-use non-motorized trails that allow for hikers, bikers, and equestrians. Some trails are hiker only, but none are mtb only.
    Here some of the multiuse trails allow ebikes. None allow gas-powered motorcycles due to noise.

    Quote Originally Posted by _CJ View Post
    Motorized, and non-motorized are clearly and simply differentiated, which is why I voted D.
    Clear and simple isn't necessarily better. Many equestrians want to ban anything with wheels.

    Nobody in this thread is claiming that ebikes are the same as pedal bikes, but it is absurd to claim they are the same as gas powered motorcycles. They are a distinct entity that should be regulated as such.

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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post

    Nobody in this thread is claiming that ebikes are the same as pedal bikes, but it is absurd to claim they are the same as gas powered motorcycles. They are a distinct entity that should be regulated as such.
    Electric powered vehicles is a new thing , but wait until the technology (Batteries) gets there ......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbM5YgAys80

    they are already very big , heavy , Uber fast (while climbing I must add)
    In a couple of years , you'll have the same performance as 20th century Motorcycles

    I don't want to see one of these climbing my trail at 50Kmh while I'm descending.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I have room for a six pack in my MTB pack n a pinch, though I usually only pack 2 or 3. Also pretty convinced you can't be too high to ride a mountain bike.

    I have carried a couple beers on a ride before but I can't imagine carrying a six pack, let alone consuming one. Actually one year my buddy and I loaded two beers each in our packs, and then set out on the trails. The plan was to ride a couple hours, then take a break on a local road climb to watch the Amgen Tour riders go through, then climb head back to the car, which was mostly climbing. We drank the two beers while we watched the race.

    The ride back up the hill, in the heat, after two beers and an extended break was brutal. That day easily finds a spot in the top 10 of bad life choices I have made.
    :wq

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by nachomc View Post
    That day easily finds a spot in the top 10 of bad life choices I have made.
    You would hate our weekly social nite-rides.
    There have been nights we've actually put away more beers than miles.

    Good times.
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  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I have room for a six pack in my MTB pack n a pinch, though I usually only pack 2 or 3. Also pretty convinced you can't be too high to ride a mountain bike.

    I would disagree with that last part. One would need to be able to balance without falling over. And falling over and get stuck in the bushes. And falling over with the bike on top of you, and not being able to get back up. Not that that has ever happened to me.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    I would disagree with that last part. One would need to be able to balance without falling over. And falling over and get stuck in the bushes. And falling over with the bike on top of you, and not being able to get back up. Not that that has ever happened to me.
    Let's try not to confuse 'high' with 'drunk' here, shall we Mr H?

    Cuz you can DEFINITELY be too drunk to ride.
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  42. #142
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    Ot.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You would hate our weekly social nite-rides.
    There have been nights we've actually put away more beers than miles.

    Good times.
    I thought that only happened at the pump track.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zowie View Post
    I thought that only happened at the pump track.
    Definitely happens there too!
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  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    You would hate our weekly social nite-rides.
    There have been nights we've actually put away more beers than miles.

    Good times.
    It could have been the heat or the rest. I have had a beer or two on some other rides without issue. Dunno, but that day was no fun.
    :wq

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapheadmofo View Post
    I have room for a six pack in my MTB pack n a pinch, though I usually only pack 2 or 3. Also pretty convinced you can't be too high to ride a mountain bike.

    Lol. Have you ever dropped your seat when you were just trying to shift a gear, and/or vice versa? Me neither.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  47. #147
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    Technically, I would go with B, but the reality is that nobody manufacturing and marketing mtb ebikes gives a crap about the disabled, and I donít think a class 1 ebike is really going to do much for most legitimately disabled people, anyway.

    So Iíll go with D and cut slack for people with handicap hang tags as they come up.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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