Poll: Do you think Armstrong doped?

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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    sure - i would not challenge this statement.

    i am pretty sure Lance responded pretty well - because if he didn't - why in the hell would he risk so much, for such an insignificant gain.

    not just him, but everyone else.

    so i think it is fair to say that all of them benefited from EPO, significantly - otherwise they would not have used it...

    yes?
    I agree, I think Lance was probably a good responder. Heck, I would say he was a great responder. The concern with everyone using something like EPO is that you are really just selecting the best responder and not necessarily the best cyclist, if you know what I mean.

    I would also agree the most benefited in some way, either directly or though a placebo effect but the level of benefit varied. I also think some athletes take stuff just because others are doing it. The wife is a tri-athelete and she often talk about other female tri-atheletes taking low dose cialis as a PED. From her comments, it seems to be almost a race day vitamin. In reality, it may not do much to increase performance but lots of people take it just to keep up with the joneses.

  2. #302
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    What cracks me up is the 36 people ( 9.21%) in the poll in this thread that think lance has never doped, add to that the 28 (7.16%) that say no but im starting to have doubts lol, honestly im amazed at how these people feed and look after themselves in general life with out assistance, this poll is the funniest thing ive read all year, no wonder Nigerians can make a living pulling scams over the phone, some people are as dumb as a piece of 4 week old dog sh*t, to put it mildly.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Yeah, there are some who believe strongly in Innocence until guilt is proven ina court of law, due process and all that stuff. What a bunch of lunatics!
    And some that believe that if you run away from a mountain of evidence with your fingers in your ears, your as guilty as sin and a pathological liar.
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  4. #304
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    Didn't read this whole thread, saw a lot of repetition just on page 1!

    So everybody else doped, too; did everybody else act like the f'n Godfather about it? They ALL denied...until the evidence landed in front of them -- Ullrich, Tyler, Floyd, et. al. Levi stepped up without getting busted.

    Lance CLAIMED that their team contracts included a 'no-doping clause'; so YEAH, if he ADMITS, he's liable to USPS/Discovery for whatever the rest of them leave him with. He surely doesn't want to go back to that apartment in Richardson!

    Still an @$$hole, though........

    And, yeah -- he doped.
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Yeah, there are some who believe strongly in Innocence until guilt is proven ina court of law, due process and all that stuff. What a bunch of lunatics!
    So I take it Hitler was innocent?
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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    So I take it Hitler was innocent?
    Mentioning hitler is an automatic loss in an internet debate. Don't you know that by now ?

    But since you asked a question, it'd help if you clarified that with what exactly you're claiming sarcastically that he's innocent of ? Certainly not of being accused of being a moron who thought because he was a private in the 1st world war, that he knew more about tactics and strategy than all the generals and field marshalls and admirals of the german military who tried to give him advice.
    I don't post to generate business for myself or make like I'm better than sliced bread

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Yeah, there are some who believe strongly in Innocence until guilt is proven ina court of law, due process and all that stuff. What a bunch of lunatics!
    From what I understand, USADA couldn't obligate someone to be at its own process. In Court you don't have the chance Lance had... You must be present to take your blame. Lance is guilty just like Pat Mcquaid is. It’s sad that he could escape like this, I would really like to see him debate and intimate the jury.
    Last edited by lapinGTI; 12-27-2012 at 10:33 AM.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Yeah, there are some who believe strongly in Innocence until guilt is proven ina court of law, due process and all that stuff. What a bunch of lunatics!
    Name:  ImageUploadedByTapatalk1356627038.356216.jpg
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    A court of law has nothing to do with doping by US athletes because doping is not a crime in the USA per se. Perjury conspiracy and obstruction of justice are - Bonds, Clemons, Jones - but like all crimes not slam dunks to prove. Doping IS a crime in France and Italy, not USA not Canada, not Spain.

    Use the google to research what WADA and USADA are all about. Dopers found in violation under their systems have to right to an arbitration hearing. Lance sued USADA in a COURT OF LAW over its jurisdiction over him AND LOST. He then folded his tent and chose not to arbitrate. Afraid of perjury maybe? His teammates who came clean and testified against him were and decided to fess up.

    Others busted with Armstrong have chosen to arbitrate: Team Director Johan Bruyneel for example. Case not heard yet. But others also folded such as dope Dr. Michele Ferrari.

    Therefore Lance as doper with zero TdF victories. Time for some people to deal with reality
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight View Post
    Mentioning hitler is an automatic loss in an internet debate. Don't you know that by now ?

    But since you asked a question, it'd help if you clarified that with what exactly you're claiming sarcastically that he's innocent of ? Certainly not of being accused of being a moron who thought because he was a private in the 1st world war, that he knew more about tactics and strategy than all the generals and field marshalls and admirals of the german military who tried to give him advice.
    he is just trying to challenge the logic that anyone that was not proven guilty in the court of justice - is actually innocent.

    hitler never made it to the court, hence was never proven guilty in the court. same as lance.

  10. #310
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    I think its very possible but either way the man should have his titles, he did work for them. Nobody actually knows besides Lance himself.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfb12 View Post
    I think its very possible but either way the man should have his titles, he did work for them. Nobody actually knows besides Lance himself.
    "nobody actually knows besides lance himself"? not even the people who saw him dope, who doped with him, who helped him dope, and who covered up his doping?

    i'll wager that if you were the first clean rider to finish behind the dopers you'd not feel he should retain titles gained by cheating.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    "nobody actually knows besides lance himself"? not even the people who saw him dope, who doped with him, who helped him dope, and who covered up his doping?

    i'll wager that if you were the first clean rider to finish behind the dopers you'd not feel he should retain titles gained by cheating.
    Maybe i'd see it differently if i was a pro rider or in that situation. He was the reason i bought a road bike, I guess a big motivation before all of this was in question.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfb12 View Post
    Maybe i'd see it differently if i was a pro rider or in that situation. He was the reason i bought a road bike, I guess a big motivation before all of this was in question.
    not just you!!!

    millions of people became cycling fans because of Lance's story of success and triumph over evil disease...

    why did he need to cheat?

    even when he cheated - why didn't he stand up, own it and ask for forgiveness. first from those that he intimidated to quitting their careers to those that paid him a lot of money to settle the lawsuits, to millions of fans...

    i'd be the first to forgive him.

    but he did not man up. which makes everything he did - multiple times worse and that is why he had to go down in flames.

    his free fall did not end yet. it just started.

    but the sport will survive. including because of all this gong show...


  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    There was a us doj prosecution that wa dropped. Prosecutions are usually dropped if the prosecutor believes he cannot get a conviction. That doesn't mean innocence factually, as you've pointed out, but it does mean something about the evidence. That's justbthe way it is. Again, not saying Lance is clean
    their decision not to move forward means nothing about the quality or quantity of the evidence against LA.

    if you'd have used the google or just read other threads on here before entering this discussion you'd know that the DOJ did not give a reason for dropping the investigation. you'd know that in dropping the case briotti rejected the advice of his assistants to pursue criminal charges against LA. you'd know that briotti's decision shocked most everyone associated with the investigation both in and out of the DOJ because of the overwhelming mountain of evidence they had amassed against LA. you'd know that the DOJ is still considering moving forward with their case and LA isn't out of the woods yet.

    you'd know that people like andreu and others came forward and admitted both his doping and others (including LA) long before being faced with the pressure of the investigation. so your argument that testimony against LA was made by liars looking to make a deal is, for the most part, baseless. it is further without merit because it is quite common for those involved in an organized criminal activity/organization to turn state's evidence and testify in exchange for a lesser sentence of their own. ever heard of mafia trials?

    had you done your homework you'd know that LA is a proven perjurer who has lied under oath countless times including testifying to never testing dirty, never undergoing drug transfusions to "clean" his blood, and the huge payoff to make at least one dirty u.a. disappear.

    you'd know that LA blatantly lied when he claimed to have severd his relationship with ferrari (a well known doping doctor) in 2004 yet email and financial records proved otherwise. you'd know that LA worked with ferrari (a well known doping dr) for well over a decade and that LA paid ferrari over a million dollars between 1996 and 2006.

    and that's just the tip of the iceberg - but you'd know all this and much, much more if you'd done your research before attempting to debate this issue publicly.

    with all due respect, your arguments are made out of pure ignorance of the facts with many being invalid simply on their face value.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfb12 View Post
    Maybe i'd see it differently if i was a pro rider or in that situation. He was the reason i bought a road bike, I guess a big motivation before all of this was in question.
    you and thousands upon thousands of others. but that doesn't earn him a pass, does it?

    with all due respect it sounds like you're saying that your ethics are situational. sounds like you're saying you believe it's ok to cheat, intimidate, blackmail, retaliate, and commit perjury if it doesn't directly affect you.

    please clarify.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    you and thousands upon thousands of others. but that doesn't earn him a pass, does it?

    with all due respect it sounds like you're saying that your ethics are situational. sounds like you're saying you believe it's ok to cheat, intimidate, blackmail, retaliate, and commit perjury if it doesn't directly affect you.

    please clarify.
    Your twisting the words i'm trying to say. I have no intention in fighting over this though, you obviously know what your talking about and therefor anything I say we will disagree as we have different opinions.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    their decision not to move forward means nothing about the quality or quantity of the evidence against LA.

    if you'd have used the google or just read other threads on here before entering this discussion you'd know that the DOJ did not give a reason for dropping the investigation. you'd know that in dropping the case briotti rejected the advice of his assistants to pursue criminal charges against LA. you'd know that briotti's decision shocked most everyone associated with the investigation both in and out of the DOJ because of the overwhelming mountain of evidence they had amassed against LA. you'd know that the DOJ is still considering moving forward with their case and LA isn't out of the woods yet.

    you'd know that people like andreu and others came forward and admitted both his doping and others (including LA) long before being faced with the pressure of the investigation. so your argument that testimony against LA was made by liars looking to make a deal is, for the most part, baseless. it is further without merit because it is quite common for those involved in an organized criminal activity/organization to turn state's evidence and testify in exchange for a lesser sentence of their own. ever heard of mafia trials?

    had you done your homework you'd know that LA is a proven perjurer who has lied under oath countless times including testifying to never testing dirty, never undergoing drug transfusions to "clean" his blood, and the huge payoff to make at least one dirty u.a. disappear.

    you'd know that LA blatantly lied when he claimed to have severd his relationship with ferrari (a well known doping doctor) in 2004 yet email and financial records proved otherwise. you'd know that LA worked with ferrari (a well known doping dr) for well over a decade and that LA paid ferrari over a million dollars between 1996 and 2006.

    and that's just the tip of the iceberg - but you'd know all this and much, much more if you'd done your research before attempting to debate this issue publicly.

    with all due respect, your arguments are made out of pure ignorance of the facts with many being invalid simply on their face value.
    Are you typing with your thumbs or are you trying to redefine normal grammar practices?

    I didn’t read much of your post because I find it hard to read. Scanning some of it gives me a clue it might be worthwhile if you used punctuation though.

    Just saying.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfb12 View Post
    Your twisting the words i'm trying to say. I have no intention in fighting over this though, you obviously know what your talking about and therefor anything I say we will disagree as we have different opinions.
    chillax, bro! you're among friends no matter what you think about LA.

    far from twisting your words, i merely asked you to clarify them.

    you initially stated LA should keep his titles whether or not he cheated because he worked for them. when i asked if you'd feel the same if you were a clean rider he'd beaten by cheating you indicated you'd probably feel differently in that case. is that not holding two different opinions on the same topic based on the situation of whether or not it personally affected you? (i.e. situational ethics)

    by stating, "with all due respect it sounds like you're saying..." and "please clarify" i was neither trying to agree, disagree, or fight. i was simply asking you to reconcile two distinctly different positions you'd stated on the same topic and posted publicly on the interwebs. that's hardly an act of aggression.

    welcome to MTBR, and lighten up bro. by joining a public discussion you invite responses to the opinion/position/etc that you post. so don't take it personally if someone asks you to clarify something you've said.
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  19. #319
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    their decision not to move forward means nothing about the quality or quantity of the evidence against LA.

    if you'd have used the google or just read other threads on here before entering this discussion you'd know that the DOJ did not give a reason for dropping the investigation. you'd know that in dropping the case briotti rejected the advice of his assistants to pursue criminal charges against LA. you'd know that briotti's decision shocked most everyone associated with the investigation both in and out of the DOJ because of the overwhelming mountain of evidence they had amassed against LA. you'd know that the DOJ is still considering moving forward with their case and LA isn't out of the woods yet.

    you'd know that people like andreu and others came forward and admitted both his doping and others (including LA) long before being faced with the pressure of the investigation. so your argument that testimony against LA was made by liars looking to make a deal is, for the most part, baseless. it is further without merit because it is quite common for those involved in an organized criminal activity/organization to turn state's evidence and testify in exchange for a lesser sentence of their own. ever heard of mafia trials?

    had you done your homework you'd know that LA is a proven perjurer who has lied under oath countless times including testifying to never testing dirty, never undergoing drug transfusions to "clean" his blood, and the huge payoff to make at least one dirty u.a. disappear.

    you'd know that LA blatantly lied when he claimed to have severd his relationship with ferrari (a well known doping doctor) in 2004 yet email and financial records proved otherwise. you'd know that LA worked with ferrari (a well known doping dr) for well over a decade and that LA paid ferrari over a million dollars between 1996 and 2006.

    and that's just the tip of the iceberg - but you'd know all this and much, much more if you'd done your research before attempting to debate this issue publicly.

    with all due respect, your arguments are made out of pure ignorance of the facts with many being invalid simply on their face value.
    You shouldn't have started the second last line with an 'and', and you should have used the shift key a little more.

    Just sayin'.......

    (good post btw)

    it's a really good thing you didn't use scripto continuo or we would have been screwed!

    Drew
    occasional cyclist

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    You shouldn't have started the second last line with an 'and'.
    why? beginning a sentence with a conjunction violates no rule of grammar.

    "There is a persistent belief that it is improper to begin a sentence with And, but this prohibition has been cheerfully ignored by standard authors from Anglo-Saxon times onwards. An initial And is a useful aid to writers as the narrative continues." ~ from The New Fowler's Modern English Usage; edited by R.W. Burchfield. Clarendon Press: Oxford, England. 1996.

    and yet more enlightenment for you: linky, linky, and linky.

    but wait, here's more: linky, linky, and linky.

    pro tip: one should first know the rules of grammar before calling someone out for violating them.

    just sayin...
    Quote Originally Posted by dru
    you should have used the shift key a little more. Just sayin'...
    again violates no established rule(s) of etiquette.

    as with the above example perhaps you're equally unaware that eschewing caps in informal electronic communications dates back to the days of the telegraph in the 1800's? it's subsequently been a common and accepted practice in BBSs of old, modern forums, emails, and SMS for decades -- and a myth that it is rude, lazy, improper, or in violation of formal or informal netiquette.

    just sayin...

    Quote Originally Posted by dru
    it's a really good thing you didn't use scripto continuo or we would have been screwed!

    Drew
    i believe you meant "scripto coninua". linky

    did that go the way you thought it was gonna go? nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by dru
    good post btw
    thanks bro.

    in all seriousness i generally enjoy yours as well. your mountain biking "tips" were awesome, especially the "lots of front brake" on off camber corners for awesome traction! man, that was a great thread. reminded me of ben stein's "how to ruin your life".

    oh, and i also loved what you had to say a while back in a thread something to the effect of "my friends don't get it" where you had an awesome ride despite it being freezing cold and having multiple mechanical anomalies.

    in my book any ride is a good ride.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    There was a us doj prosecution that wa dropped. Prosecutions are usually dropped if the prosecutor believes he cannot get a conviction. That doesn't mean innocence factually, as you've pointed out, but it does mean something about the evidence. That's justbthe way it is. Again, not saying Lance is clean
    Prosecutions often drop out if for what ever reason they lose a key witness, the Doj didnt have its act together for what ever reason, but the USADA had their act together big time, if lance decided to fight the charges he was innocent of in you books he would have been exposed for what he really is, a liar, systematic cheat and a bully.
    He would have been liable and been paying for it forever.
    Case closed
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Losing a key witness is an evidentiary problem. I love it when people who are tryung to be argumentative agree with me
    key witnesses pull out for many reasons, including a fear of a range of things..

    Your whole argument here stems from the fact you think he is innocent and been treated unfairly..

    If thats not the case your whole argument agrees with me in the fact that he is a cheating, gutless bully, that couldnt face the music at his time of judgement.....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  23. #323
    dru
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    Mono, well played, but my translating abilities of latin (scripto coninua) are sadly well past their non-existent prime.

    and I'd have to start with Wheelock's for sure.

    And (and) I'd have to have some point at translating stuff like ... con inua articulista, composta de es- trangcirOB que nào querem aprender o ..... which are typical of the hits Google gives.

    and (And) my last attempt was somewhere around several hours per page.

    And (and) any prof worth his/her salt up here would raise a brow at your use of 'and' even if it's OK (as it seems to be).....

    and btw I was taking the piss in your defence, as you might of guessed.

    And (and) you don't need my help anyways......

    Cheers!

    Drew
    occasional cyclist

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    You seriously lack reading comprehension if you have actually read what I have posted in good faith.
    Well what exactly are you in this thread arguing about then and painting a picture that poor old lance is hard done by and there is no evidence, and he has been hung out to dry, ive read what youve said and i think its incredibly Naive, i think youre lacking serious reality and life comprehension after reading your posts Dave.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Mono, well played, but my translating abilities of latin (scripto coninua) are sadly well past their non-existent prime.

    and I'd have to start with Wheelock's for sure.

    And (and) I'd have to have some point at translating stuff like ... con inua articulista, composta de es- trangcirOB que nào querem aprender o ..... which are typical of the hits Google gives.

    and (And) my last attempt was somewhere around several hours per page.

    And (and) any prof worth his/her salt up here would raise a brow at your use of 'and' even if it's OK (as it seems to be).....

    and btw I was taking the piss in your defence, as you might of guessed.

    Drew
    awesome... love this banter back and forth...

    surely beats certain big head small weenie lawyer talk...

  26. #326
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    Yeah, Oggie, it's the thread that won't die, isn't it. Snow biking tomorrow? You must have got the same dump as we did here in Waterloo.

    Drew
    occasional cyclist

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Yeah, Oggie, it's the thread that won't die, isn't it. Snow biking tomorrow? You must have got the same dump as we did here in Waterloo.

    Drew
    we hit the Hilton Falls/Agreement Forest on Boxing Day - oh boy, was it ever awesome... can't wait for another snowfall or two, so that the snow packs down - which makes riding in the rock even more fun... there were a few groups riding at the same time... nothing better than stopping for a minute or two and exchanging pleasantries and occasional banter with fellow riders, before saddling up for more...

    hit me with PM if you are interested in jumping in on a ride or two... i have a great bunch of fun guys and gals riding with all winter.... good banter is priceless...

    stay healthy my friend...

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    good of the sport, among other things.
    Cycling was here before Armstrong, it will do just fine without him. Maybe even better if the removal of Armstrong from recent cycling lore helps to give some credibility to the sport instead of going the way of professional wrestling. Armstrong certainly wasn't the first to use PEDs nor is he the source of all PED use, but don't kid yourself that Armstrong wasn't a major cog in the wheel of PEDs in the pro road scene, in many more ways than just another end user.

    Many other pros have been sanctioned and stripped of major wins, including two recent TdF wins that were reversed. Should Armstrong be exempt from the somehow? I can't think of any reason why.

    His get out of jail free card with the UCI is worthless now. Stick a fork in him, he's done. Good riddance and all that stuff too.

  29. #329
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    ^^^This^^^

    ..and where each athlete relies on their own personal strength, Lance had enough money to secure, maintain, and lead in the pharmaceutical field. This plus his infamous machinations gave him diabolical influence. This has nothing to do with an even playing field, with or without drugs.

    .

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by dru View Post
    Mono, well played, but my translating abilities of latin (scripto coninua) are sadly well past their non-existent prime.

    and I'd have to start with Wheelock's for sure.

    And (and) I'd have to have some point at translating stuff like ... con inua articulista, composta de es- trangcirOB que nào querem aprender o ..... which are typical of the hits Google gives.

    and (And) my last attempt was somewhere around several hours per page.

    And (and) any prof worth his/her salt up here would raise a brow at your use of 'and' even if it's OK (as it seems to be).....

    and btw I was taking the piss in your defence, as you might of guessed.

    And (and) you don't need my help anyways......

    Cheers!

    Drew
    kudos bro -- nicely done!

    and now for something completely different....

    what's your snow riding rig? fat bike?
    Last edited by monogod; 12-28-2012 at 12:54 AM.
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  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Losing a key witness is an evidentiary problem. I love it when people who are tryung to be argumentative agree with me
    losing a witness (or even 5) would not have impacted this case or been an evidentiary problem. still close to 30 left!

    again -- the DOJ did not disclose the purpose for not pursuing the case. your assumption that it was from a lack of evidence is just that... an assumption and nothing more for which you have absolutely ZERO basis to reach such a conclusion. yet again, had you done your homework before entering this debate you'd know that briotti ceased the investigation AGAINST the advice of his assistants and despite compiling a mountain of evidence against LA. it was a move that shocked most everyone connected with the investigation. heck, you even got that information spoon-fed that to ya in this thread.... so perhaps it is YOUR reading comprehension that's questionable?

    speaking of which, if you even remotely think that tone's was agreeing with you then you definitely have some rather profound reading comprehension issues and deficits.

    that being said, you really shouldn't be throwing snarky comments and insults around. it's not that i disapprove or that it's inappropriate in general cuz i love it and don't mind a good debate peppered with little personal jabs here and there. but with you getting all butt hurt and neg repping because you thought you were being personally insulted (when you actually were not) you're not really in a position to be snarky. and trust me, if the benign comments osokolo and i made bent your delicate little feelers you're a little too thin skinned to start getting sideways around here, cuz you'll be eaten alive.

    consider this your only warning. after this the gloves come off.
    Last edited by monogod; 12-28-2012 at 01:08 AM.
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  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    You seriously lack reading comprehension if you have actually read what I have posted in good faith.
    Good faith? And here I thought you were a naive and/or clueless troll trying to incite arguments about nothing. The case is closed, the hero had feet of clay, the hero is a zero.

    Why not just deal with it and move on?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Yes, I must confess, I am a naive and clueless troll.
    congratulations, you've finally made a coherent statement we can all agree on!
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  34. #334
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    This is a very polemical issue... Dopping is a polemical issue.
    Lance is a huge rider and I believe that most of you agree with me.
    Probably, he had ride doped and the others? They were all clean? If you make a little research about the riders that finished in second place, when lance's win. Most of them are tested positive...

    cheers

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodd View Post
    This is a very polemical issue... Dopping is a polemical issue.
    Lance is a huge rider and I believe that most of you agree with me.
    Probably, he had ride doped and the others? They were all clean? If you make a little research about the riders that finished in second place, when lance's win. Most of them are tested positive...

    cheers
    You could start a topic on onter riders, but here it's Lance, and what ever the other have done. In doesn't make Lance inocent, Our maybe he is... But for sure he dopep!

  36. #336
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    Speaking of Lance

    Armstrong nominated as Texan of the Year
    By: Cycling NewsPublished: December 28, 11:27, Updated: December 28, 12:41
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    Lance Armstrong (US Postal) at the start of the 1999 Amstel Gold
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    Dallas newspaper calls him “a fighter, a survivor and a cunning, steely-eyed liar”

    Lance Armstrong has been nominated for Texan of the Year – but not as a sterling example of the Lone Star State's population. The Dallas Morning News has nominated him for its award as a top newsmaker who has had a great impact.

    “Armstrong’s crash to Earth in 2012, with all its painful reverberations, leaves a Texas-size crater that qualifies him as a finalist for this year’s distinction. His fall wasn’t pleasant to behold,” the newspaper said in an editorial. “If nothing else, it’s a lesson about the perils of hero worship.”

    The title is one which does not necessarily reflect well on the recipient. “The Dallas Morning News Texan of the Year is a distinction we bestow for impact, be it for better or for worse. It reflects the prominence of what Texans do, not what we’d prefer them to do.”

    Armstrong, a lifelong resident of Texas, first came to notice in the state as a teenage triathlete. He enthralled millions of Texans and fans around the world as he came back from cancer to win seven consecutive Tours de France, and raised millions of dollars from this Livestrong Foundation.

    But the legend came to an end in 2012. “This year came the epic fall, a legacy imploded in weeks. The head of the U.S. anti-doping agency revealed him as a serial cheat, the enforcer of 'the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.' Sponsors abandoned Armstrong. Nike said he misled the company for a decade.

    “Now the Armstrong brand will forever be that of a fighter, a survivor and a cunning, steely-eyed liar.”
    Armstrong Nominated As Texan Of The Year | Cyclingnews.com

  37. #337
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    i remember a radio talk show i listen to while driving to work about the whole Roger Clemens situation and other " top " athletes. one guy said something like, " Everyone is doping which puts them all on the same playing field. If only 2 or 3 guys are actually accomplishing anything in conjunction with skill how is that cheating? It takes more then drugs to get the win " ...
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    I'm getting dizzy.

    here:

    Armstrong is done.

    the roadies have hashed this all out already.

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodd View Post
    Probably, he had ride doped and the others? They were all clean? If you make a little research about the riders that finished in second place, when lance's win. Most of them are tested positive...
    Many of those other TdF 2nd/3rd place finishers have been sanctioned with major results stripped. Other TdF winners also sanctioned and TdF wins stripped. Armstrong now sanctioned with TdF wins stripped. Seems fair enough to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by shwinn8 View Post
    i remember a radio talk show i listen to while driving to work about the whole Roger Clemens situation and other " top " athletes. one guy said something like, " Everyone is doping which puts them all on the same playing field. If only 2 or 3 guys are actually accomplishing anything in conjunction with skill how is that cheating? It takes more then drugs to get the win " ...
    No level playing field in this case. Armstrong was given wiggle room to dope up more heavily and more frequently than other riders. Described in detail in many earlier posts in this thread.

  40. #340
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    @Circlip, got'cha. i haven't followed because i really don't care.. well, care just enough to make a post
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  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by shwinn8 View Post
    i remember a radio talk show i listen to while driving to work about the whole Roger Clemens situation and other " top " athletes. one guy said something like, " Everyone is doping which puts them all on the same playing field. If only 2 or 3 guys are actually accomplishing anything in conjunction with skill how is that cheating? It takes more then drugs to get the win " ...
    There is also that statement that the sport was becoming somewhat clean and Lance came in doping in full force and the other teams had to start doing it again.

    But I think it all does not matter, he/they cheated so they are all bad no matter how level the playing field was, which at least in my opinion was not level anyway.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Yes, there is a prescribed point of view that certain posters in this thread have. If you don't agree not only with their major conclusion but every other point they believe in, you will get called a bunch of names like we're all back in third grade. It's the worst of internet debating, in one thread.
    Here's why you are a troll.
    You just want to argue for the sake of arguing, you stopped making ground on your first post.
    If you actually did read through the thread, you find that they aren't pov's but facts. If you did in fact read the thread, the only conclusion I can come up is is that you are extremely iggnorant to the facts, YES FACTS...As I said stated previously in a post, LA's fans have nothing left to grasp onto, except their shlong and "everyone else was doping". Keep on milking. When it gets to a certain point name calling sometimes get thrown around, thats only because you are one arrogant, single minded individual.
    You've played you're last card.

  43. #343
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    I never said that Lance wasn't a cheater... He should be punished for what he did but in the correct time, not now, 10 years later.
    Every cheater should be punished in every type of sports, but not only in cycling.

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDweeb View Post
    I'm getting dizzy.

    here:

    Armstrong is done.

    the roadies have hashed this all out already.
    they got it all wrong.

    newsflash from a reliable source: Lance is clean until proven otherwise. period.

    end of the story.

    lock the thread please.

    god bless lawyers... i think.

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Again, simpleminded as all hell. I agree with you Lance was doping, never said otherwise. My only "crime" in this thread was being too subtle for you. So no one is disagreeing with facts. If you can't handle someone saying "I agree he was doping, but I disagree with the process and I don't think the whole thing is good for the sport" then you are one big ass olympic quality simpleton. In fact, I would need "doping" to become that simplistic and dull.

    This board s usually a pleasure, I guess you and a couple of others here are too overwhelmed with emotion to actually have a discussion about the subject.
    LOL, you must be going for the award of biggest Hypocrite on this site, your upset at others getting too overwhelmed with emotion, but at the same time your calling them big assed olympic quality simpletons, not only that but along the way you have decided to change your story to suit yourself, first your arguing that there is no evidence, all the witnesses are being bought off and its a big conspirecy to now saying you think he is guilty...

    Mate, whats it going to be, you cant fool anybody here, go back and read your posts for the last few pages.
    This is like the muppet show....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    Here's why you are a troll.
    You just want to argue for the sake of arguing, you stopped making ground on your first post.
    If you actually did read through the thread, you find that they aren't pov's but facts. If you did in fact read the thread, the only conclusion I can come up is is that you are extremely iggnorant to the facts, YES FACTS...As I said stated previously in a post, LA's fans have nothing left to grasp onto, except their shlong and "everyone else was doping". Keep on milking. When it gets to a certain point name calling sometimes get thrown around, thats only because you are one arrogant, single minded individual.
    You've played you're last card.
    SV11, Absolutely spot on, you have summed it up perfectly...
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

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    First, Lance had to be taking testosterone because he had a testicle remove, which means he was producing a very small amount of his own testosterone. However the problem lays within the question of what’s a normal test level? Go into any high school class to see why that’s such a difficult question… some males like they are 24 and others like they are 14..why? Because everyone produces such a wide range of hormone levels… The avg male produces 400 to 1200 mcg of test. So one racer could be at 440 and Lance could be at 1199 (prescribed test) and both normal.
    But at any rate the basic point is the league had been on a “witch hunt” with Lance since he won his first Tour De France… and it was never proven. I think once someone is no longer competing, than it’s no longer an issue… game over! If he was caught like many others within months of when they competed, then he is busted and all awards removed for cheating. But part of the responsibility of the league is prove it while they are competing.... improve their methods of testing if they feel still others are cheating… but to the rest who may have … the league need to just “SHUTUP”. Hey who knows… Babe Ruth and Jim Brown may have been the biggest dopers… oh well. They got away with it… no one can prove that they never used drugs…

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    You're confused.

    Arguing that "there is no evidence." Nope. Didn't happen. If you go back and read, and try to do it slowly enough that it might penetrate your faulty cognition, you will find that I said that when prosecutions are dropped, that usually means there is a problem with the evidence and that the prosecutor thinks he can't get a conviction. That is a far cry from saying there is "no evidence." I've even mentioned the evidence I found persuasive. So, I wasn't saying there was "no evidence" at amy point and you know that unless you're just being a dick.

    "all the witnesses being bought" - Nope, never said that either. In fact, I never said any witness was "bought", or implied it either.

    "it's a big conspiracy" - I never said that either, or implied it.

    Other than that, your post is just name calling. I hope that you make it to fourth grade. Give your mom my best!
    Mate your a bloke that belittles others and name calls then at the same time accuse others of doing it, you love to make out your a victim and a saint, your above few posts are prime examples.
    Your a dreamer, go back and read your posts, you are totally dellusional Dave, your not fooling anybody mate, the only one your fooling is yourself..
    Not to mention your an Agrade hypocrite, your as much a victim as you think poor lance is, mate get a grip and wake up, your not fooling anybody, your posts are there for all to see....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    SV11, Absolutely spot on, you have summed it up perfectly...
    monogod put him in his place, never to come back with anything that makes sense even remotely... don't feed the troll anymore please.

    let him debate in front of the mirror... that is what i call the level playing field... pretty low level, but level nonetheless...


  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Ok, well, quote me then, using the cut-and-paste feature you know and love so well.

    Quote me where I said that Lance was innocent.

    Quote me where I said there was "no evidence"

    Quote me where I said he didn't dope.

    Quote me where I said witnesses were bought off.

    Quote me where I said it was "a big conspiracy"

    Go!

    You can't do it, because it doesn't exist. You're just in a tizzy because you can't out debate me on the issue, you lack the ability to see finer points, and all you've got at the end of the day is the ability to misconstrue what I've said and call people names. And what's more, you can't even hold your own with your two or three surrogates helping you. Give it a rest, and go back to nursing your feelings of inadequacy in front of the tele, or whatever it is they call it in Australia. Geez!
    Go back and read your posts Dave, from the start, i ask anybody to do the same, im not playing your games, i couldnt be bothered, its there for all to see..
    Cheers ,and keep playing the victim, it suits you.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  51. #351
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    Dave, if your a Lawyer, you must have bribed somebody to get your qualifications.....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  52. #352
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    ...

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  53. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    First, Lance had to be taking testosterone because he had a testicle remove, which means he was producing a very small amount of his own testosterone. However the problem lays within the question of what’s a normal test level? Go into any high school class to see why that’s such a difficult question… some males like they are 24 and others like they are 14..why? Because everyone produces such a wide range of hormone levels… The avg male produces 400 to 1200 mcg of test. So one racer could be at 440 and Lance could be at 1199 (prescribed test) and both normal.
    Not sure where you are going with this. Armstrong's use of PEDs and banned methods according to the charges, mountain of testimony, and supporting evidence, is largely related to EPO and blood transfusions. "T" isn't a central issue.

  54. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    If you go back and read, and try to do it slowly enough that it might penetrate your faulty cognition, you will find that I said that when prosecutions are dropped, that usually means there is a problem with the evidence and that the prosecutor thinks he can't get a conviction.
    Since you are very focused on the DOJ case, I think it's critical to remind once again that this investigation was for fraud and criminal conspiracy i.e. financial crimes. The investigation wasn't directly aimed at anti-doping violations, since these are not criminal offences - as has been pointed out already by others and acknowledged by you earlier in this thread if I'm not mistaken. The DOJ case wasn't for doping charges, therefore no doping charges were dropped by the DOJ.

    On the other hand, the USADA case was for anti-doping violations. We all know the outcome there.

  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    typically devoid of substance, yet proclaiming victory.

    Your buddy posts nonsense accusations about my prior posts

    I ask him to prove it.

    He can't. Neither can you. You both fail. Miserably..
    You are impossible, you did this with with a few others in this thread, lol.
    You're BF is guilty, we want blood!

  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    But at any rate the basic point is the league had been on a “witch hunt” with Lance since he won his first Tour De France… and it was never proven.
    wrong. it was well proven.

    LA failed numerous tests, did a huge payoff to make one of his failed tests disappear, and was under suspicion and investigation for doping and conspiracy while actively racing.

    investigating a racer with history of doping, failed drug tests, intimidation, bribery, extortion, cheating, and lying can hardly be considered a "witch hunt".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo
    I think once someone is no longer competing, than it’s no longer an issue… game over! If he was caught like many others within months of when they competed, then he is busted and all awards removed for cheating. But part of the responsibility of the league is prove it while they are competing....
    think and believe whatever you want, you certainly have that right.

    however, in the REAL WORLD that exists beyond the confines of your beliefs when a racer applies for and is granted a license they willingly and voluntarily agree to be subjugated to the governing authorities.

    there is no statute of limitations in cycling to catch cheaters and strip them of titles/results if they are later found to have cheated. lance (and everyone else with a racing license) agreed to these conditions by applying for a license. lance (and everyone else with a racing license) agreed to these conditions by being a professional racer.

    point being that all the license holding professional racers didn't have a problem with it -- so then why do you?
    Last edited by monogod; 12-30-2012 at 03:37 AM.
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  57. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    typically devoid of substance, yet proclaiming victory.

    Your buddy posts nonsense accusations about my prior posts

    i ask him to prove it.

    He can't. Neither can you. You both fail. Miserably.

    I give it a d-, mostly because you've put in so much effort. You can do better.
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    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  58. #358
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    Do you believe Lance Armstrong is clean..

    I believe Lance is clean for the first 5 minutes he exits the shower every day. Anything beyond that is a well kept secret only he and his 100 or so inside circle of friends know for sure. Hey wait a minute weren't 80% of those subpoenaed to testify against him. And it soon became apparent to all how clean he really was.
    Opinions vary…Road House highlights 04 - YouTube
    Last edited by DIRTJUNKIE; 12-30-2012 at 12:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    So I shoot off all full of bravado, hit this wee booter - grabbing some air, then I land - leading into a greasy rut.

  59. #359
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    WOW guys!

    16 pages of speculation about something you really know ZERO about because you weren’t there?

    This is what we call a ‘First World Problem’ over on ar15.com…

  60. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Good a time as any to exit the thread. You were called out Tones, and you came up with nothing. Zeo, zilch, nada. Though you did say Lance is my "bff" and did some more name calling.
    you're a day late and dollar short leaving this thread, champ. for you to claim ANY type victory at this point makes just about as much sense as claiming the mayans were correct that 12-21-12 was the end of the world.

    but hey, by this time we're used to you pretty much talking out the southern most extremity of your g.i. tract...
    Last edited by monogod; 12-30-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    WOW guys!

    16 pages of speculation about something you really know ZERO about because you weren’t there?

    This is what we call a ‘First World Problem’ over on ar15.com…
    I agree Dead Dog no one can say for sure and positively if he is or isn't guilty unless you were there. All we have to go on is evidence or lack of evidence that he doped. It's just like any crime unless you are there you have to go by evidence and credible or non credible witnesses. Go through the evidence and make an educated decision.

    I was on the Lance bandwagon for years and years thinking he was innocent of all accusations. That all changed in my mind once I saw the Lance Documentary on CNN. I think once you view this if you are on the bandwagon you may make a leap off.
    CNN Documentary 'The World According to Lance Armstrong' Exposes Web of Deceit | Bleacher Report
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    So I shoot off all full of bravado, hit this wee booter - grabbing some air, then I land - leading into a greasy rut.

  62. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    WOW guys!

    16 pages of speculation about something you really know ZERO about because you weren’t there?

    This is what we call a ‘First World Problem’ over on ar15.com…
    people for whom nothing exists without their first hand direct knowledge live in very tiny, myopic microcosms of their own delusional creation.

    this what we call a "cognition and reality problem" over here on MTBR...
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  63. #363
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    "Doping" is such a fine line.
    Altitude chambers, food, etc.

    All I can say is my hat is fully off to anybody that even finishes the TDF!!!

    To do it 7-8-9 times Good for YOU!

  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    "Doping" is such a fine line.
    Altitude chambers, food, etc.

    All I can say is my hat is fully off to anybody that even finishes the TDF!!!

    To do it 7-8-9 times Good for YOU!
    "Doping" is not such a fine line.

    not even close.

    Doping is the difference between winning the TDF and being a peloton filler.

  65. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    All I can say is my hat is fully off to anybody that even finishes the TDF!!!
    how many did LA finish before he started doping?
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    osokolo - Really?

    When they test for doping there are no limits to the tests?
    Do you know the specifics of the tests?
    Do run them?

    As an engineer that creates and runs tests, xxx level in your blood is the trigger point. 0.0001% over the limit = busted, 0.0001% under and you are good. It may be limited to the ability of the machine to read it, but it is not zero.

    Show me the data!

  67. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    how many did LA finish before he started doping?
    That's like asking how many men it took to build the great pyramids. No one knows and it will for always be a mystery. Ask Lance!
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    So I shoot off all full of bravado, hit this wee booter - grabbing some air, then I land - leading into a greasy rut.

  68. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    osokolo - Really?

    When they test for doping there are no limits to the tests?
    Do you know the specifics of the tests?
    Do run them?

    As an engineer that creates and runs tests, xxx level in your blood is the trigger point. 0.0001% over the limit busted, 0.0001% under and you are good. It may be limited to the ability of the machine to read it, but it is not zero.

    Show me the data!
    as a former athlete, who tried stuff that is waaaaay less powerful than EPO - i can tell you that it was a HUGE difference maker.

    just to clarify above statement - i tried banned substance just for the sake of trying - after i retired from high level competition. never used PED during my athletic career.

    the difference is stunning.

    i can tell you that PED can make the difference from the middle of the road athlete to the winner...

    you can talk your engineering language as much as you want. i am telling you a real life story.

  69. #369
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    The only way to tell if Lance is as good as he has portrayed himself to be to win 9 TDF titles. Is to let him race it again and give him full allowance to use any and all drugs he wants. But you must also drug up all competitors to make it fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    So I shoot off all full of bravado, hit this wee booter - grabbing some air, then I land - leading into a greasy rut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE, View Post
    That's like asking how many men it took to build the great pyramids. No one knows and it will for always be a mystery. Ask Lance!
    um.... no. that's like asking how many tours LA finished before he started doping. (hint: none)

    however, unlike the construction of the pyramids plethoric sworn eye-witness testimony and evidence (i.e. failed drug tests) of his doping exists so it's hardly speculation.

    "ask lance"? um... no again. as a confirmed and documented perjurer, liar, blackmailer, and extortionist LA's credibility is wholly non-existent.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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    Quote Originally Posted by osokolo View Post
    as a former athlete, who tried stuff that is waaaaay less powerful than EPO - i can tell you that it was a HUGE difference maker.

    just to clarify above statement - i tried banned substance just for the sake of trying - after i retired from high level competition. never used PED during my athletic career.

    the difference is stunning.

    i can tell you that PED can make the difference from the middle of the road athlete to the winner...

    you can talk your engineering language as much as you want. i am telling you a real life story.
    And I started taking viagra after I swore off sex...

  72. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    WOW guys!

    16 pages of speculation about something you really know ZERO about because you weren’t there?
    I wasn't there for 99% of the stories I read online, in magazines or even in newspapers. Doesn't mean I can't find factual info amongst the BS and achieve an informed opinion
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  73. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    And I started taking viagra after I swore off sex...
    your inability to achieve an erection is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  74. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    um.... no. that's like asking how many tours LA finished before he started doping. (hint: none)

    however, unlike the construction of the pyramids plethoric sworn eye-witness testimony and evidence (i.e. failed drug tests) of his doping exists so it's hardly speculation.

    "ask lance"? um... no again. as a confirmed and documented perjurer, liar, blackmailer, and extortionist LA's credibility is wholly non-existent.
    Everything you said in response to what I said falls under the same belief. Just slightly worded different with a lot more hostility in your response than mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    So I shoot off all full of bravado, hit this wee booter - grabbing some air, then I land - leading into a greasy rut.

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    Some of you need to watch "the world according to lance".
    He dopped up in his first TDF till the last. He had a drug cloud hanging over his head, from then till now. I remember that to this day watching it on the news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SV11 View Post
    Some of you need to watch "the world according to lance".
    He dopped up in his first TDF till the last. He had a drug cloud hanging over his head, from then till now. I remember that to this day watching it on the news.
    OR

    I was on the Lance bandwagon for years and years thinking he was innocent of all accusations. That all changed in my mind once I saw the Lance Documentary on CNN. I think once you view this if you are on the bandwagon you may make a leap off.
    CNN Documentary 'The World According to Lance Armstrong' Exposes Web of Deceit | Bleacher Report
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    So I shoot off all full of bravado, hit this wee booter - grabbing some air, then I land - leading into a greasy rut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE, View Post
    OR

    I was on the Lance bandwagon for years and years thinking he was innocent of all accusations. That all changed in my mind once I saw the Lance Documentary on CNN. I think once you view this if you are on the bandwagon you may make a leap off.
    CNN Documentary 'The World According to Lance Armstrong' Exposes Web of Deceit | Bleacher Report
    DJ, Yes thats the same Aussie doco that SV11 is talking about, yes its very damning, it shows up LA for what he is, theres no doubt about that.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

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    News flash.... PEDs have been and will continue to be used in every professional sport... All this BS about Lance is a cheater is delusional talk because those who think that... some where deep inside believe in the "purity of sports". To alll those in that camp.... In the words of Jack..."you can't handle the truth"! Son, we live in a world of walls... We put our atheletes on a pedestal and would like to think they are "god like".... You have that luxury... The luxury of being so native that all your idols are clean... So when one of these super stars get caught ... U are like OMG!!! Such liars, such cheaters amoung this world of unbelievable super humans God has put among us for our entertainment.... We use words like honor, code and loyalty.... I have neither the time or the inclination to explain way the difference of just being a college star and a millionaire superstar is just the point of a needle difference.... Now I am not saying these superstars are not ridiculously talented and if you or I used the same PEDs then we could do what they are achieving.... NO WAY!! These are superstars that train hard their whole life and look for any advantage they can get away with.... And they know for a fact others are doing it... So they find a way or accept being irrelevant. Take off your rose colared glasses and just enjoy watching the game.... It's just as much of a game behind the scenes not getting caught.... Lance is a 7 time Tour De France champion and deserves everything he has earned.... so does Tiger Woods even if one day they prove he took something .....face the facts and enjoy the game.... don't think you know what's happening behind closed doors... And don't be so quick to "throw that stone" and just believe in the system....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    So when one of these super stars get caught ... U are like OMG!!! Such liars, such cheaters amoung this world of unbelievable super humans God has put among us for our entertainment....
    off the top of your head, without googling, name 5 other dirty riders.

    you most likely can't unless you really follow the sport. know why? most cheaters admitted it when confronted with the evidence so there was never much fanfare over them in the media. they just "manned up", took their lumps, and moved on. in fact, many came forward solely at the prompting of their own conscience. now THAT is called honor and integrity.

    know why LA is called a liar? simple... because he is one. because he continues to deny being dirty despite the mountain of evidence against him INCLUDING multiple failed drug tests and payoff to cover dirty drug tests. know why he's in the news? because he's a liar that made a huge public spectacle about being all butt hurt over the allegations he cheated (including ruining the lives/careers/finances of those making them) only to be found that the allegations were true all along. and even in the face of it all, he maintains his innocence. now THAT is textbook narcissism of a sociopath.

    part of formulating a coherent, relevant argument in a debate is actually knowing WTF you're talking about -- a luxury you clearly don't have. so instead you elect to paint the walls with your explosive verbal diarrhea then stand back proudly imagining yourself so profound and enlightened when in reality all that's come out of your mouth is excrement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo
    These are superstars that train hard their whole life and look for any advantage they can get away with.... And they know for a fact others are doing it... So they find a way or accept being irrelevant.
    therein lies the definition of honor and integrity. a man of substance who's character is defined by honor and integrity would rather never "make it" and be relegated to historical irrelevance than to win by cheating.

    there are rules one agrees to abide by when applying for and being granted a license. racers who disregard those rules have no honor or integrity, and that is NOT part of the game. people who do not believe the rules apply to them are called "sociopaths" and it is considered a serious character defect and mental disorder.

    those who defend these sociopathic cheaters possess the self-same lack of honor, character, and integrity as those whom they defend. you are disgracing yourself with your argument and showing that at a core level your soul is putrid and your heart rancid.

    you're nothing more than a sociopath just like the ones you defend. "birds of a feather" and so forth...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo
    Lance is a 7 time Tour De France champion and deserves everything he has earned....
    last time i checked the record books LA did not win a single TDF due to being disqualified for cheating. of course to his fellow sociopaths he will always remain their champion and they will cry "UNFAIR!" that he was held accountable for his actions.

    unwittingly you've finally uttered some truth, however. in saying LA "deserves everything he has earned" you are correct.

    he has earned the titles of "cheater", "liar", "extortionist", "blackmailer", "fraud", "perjurer" and "the biggest disgrace in the history of cycling" -- and as you stated he deserves everything he has earned.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    News flash.... PEDs have been and will continue to be used in every professional sport... All this BS about Lance is a cheater is delusional talk because those who think that... some where deep inside believe in the "purity of sports". To alll those in that camp.... In the words of Jack..."you can't handle the truth"! Son, we live in a world of walls... We put our atheletes on a pedestal and would like to think they are "god like".... You have that luxury... The luxury of being so native that all your idols are clean... So when one of these super stars get caught ... U are like OMG!!! Such liars, such cheaters amoung this world of unbelievable super humans God has put among us for our entertainment.... We use words like honor, code and loyalty.... I have neither the time or the inclination to explain way the difference of just being a college star and a millionaire superstar is just the point of a needle difference.... Now I am not saying these superstars are not ridiculously talented and if you or I used the same PEDs then we could do what they are achieving.... NO WAY!! These are superstars that train hard their whole life and look for any advantage they can get away with.... And they know for a fact others are doing it... So they find a way or accept being irrelevant. Take off your rose colared glasses and just enjoy watching the game.... It's just as much of a game behind the scenes not getting caught.... Lance is a 7 time Tour De France champion and deserves everything he has earned.... so does Tiger Woods even if one day they prove he took something .....face the facts and enjoy the game.... don't think you know what's happening behind closed doors... And don't be so quick to "throw that stone" and just believe in the system....

    that is great insight. thank you.

    can you please take some time and explain how anything in your post has any relevance to the fact that an athlete got caught using banned substances and penalized for it, according to the rules of the game that you are referring to?

    are you suggesting that the worlds sport body abandons drug tests and allows athletes to drug themselves to the sky and/or death? that is an interesting concept, entertained by a few.

    however, the issue at hand is that there are rules of the game right now, and those that break them will get penalized according to these rules. sure - i dig it completely - if you don't get caught - you are a winna'

    but if you get caught - you are a looser.

    did i get it right?

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    He figured out how to win and pass all the tests and get the trophy in most sports especially motorsports we have found out how dominant teams were cheating and did not get caught because they outsmarted the competition . It has been the rest of the competition realizing how they did it with better technology and ideas well after the winning took place. The goal is to win anyway possible and dont get caught. I like believe the team won fair and square. I also believe It is a shame they did or may have cheated especially when drugs are involved. zero tolerance means zero tolerance

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    The issue is looking everyone straight in the eye and lying about it. with an attitude.

    The other stuff is noise. It's the LIE.

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    off the top of your head, without googling, name 5 other dirty riders.

    you most likely can't unless you really follow the sport. know why? most cheaters admitted it when confronted with the evidence so there was never much fanfare over them in the media. they just "manned up", took their lumps, and moved on. in fact, many came forward solely at the prompting of their own conscience. now THAT is called honor and integrity.


    Are you kidding me, MonoGod? I must say, after reading your reply, you need to be tested for drugs... here is a "quota from wikipedia on Tour de France

    "For as long as the Tour has existed, since 1903, its participants have been doping themselves. No dope, no hope. The Tour, in fact, is only possible because - not despite the fact - there is doping. For 60 years this was allowed. For the past 30 years it has been officially prohibited. Yet the fact remains; great cyclists have been doping themselves, then as now.[3]

    thank you for your reply and offering for everyone to read, the exact viewpoint I was referrring to ,,,

  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    Lance is a 7 time Tour De France champion and deserves everything he has earned....
    Actually he isn't, why else would he take that down from his Tweeter page?
    He used to have that on his tweet page, not anymore.

  85. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    DJ, Yes thats the same Aussie doco that SV11 is talking about, yes its very damning, it shows up LA for what he is, theres no doubt about that.
    Oh that explains it, same documentary. Yeah I would like to see what this thread would turn to if everybody who responded saw this. It sure does open your eyes to what has been going on all these years.
    Quote Originally Posted by targnik View Post
    So I shoot off all full of bravado, hit this wee booter - grabbing some air, then I land - leading into a greasy rut.

  86. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    News flash.... PEDs have been and will continue to be used in every professional sport... All this BS about Lance is a cheater is delusional talk because those who think that... some where deep inside believe in the "purity of sports". To alll those in that camp.... In the words of Jack..."you can't handle the truth"! Son, we live in a world of walls... We put our atheletes on a pedestal and would like to think they are "god like".... You have that luxury... The luxury of being so native that all your idols are clean... So when one of these super stars get caught ... U are like OMG!!! Such liars, such cheaters amoung this world of unbelievable super humans God has put among us for our entertainment.... We use words like honor, code and loyalty.... I have neither the time or the inclination to explain way the difference of just being a college star and a millionaire superstar is just the point of a needle difference.... Now I am not saying these superstars are not ridiculously talented and if you or I used the same PEDs then we could do what they are achieving.... NO WAY!! These are superstars that train hard their whole life and look for any advantage they can get away with.... And they know for a fact others are doing it... So they find a way or accept being irrelevant. Take off your rose colared glasses and just enjoy watching the game.... It's just as much of a game behind the scenes not getting caught.... Lance is a 7 time Tour De France champion and deserves everything he has earned.... so does Tiger Woods even if one day they prove he took something .....face the facts and enjoy the game.... don't think you know what's happening behind closed doors... And don't be so quick to "throw that stone" and just believe in the system....
    LOL, Brad, ive got some news for you that might come as a real shock,
    LA is no longer the 7 times champion of the tour, his titles have been stripped because he cheated and lied to get them
    You can live in your world of dellusion for as long as you like, but it wont bring bring his titles back.
    I suppose you still call Marion jones and Ben Johnson olympic champions, along with all the other olympic cheats lol.
    And you tell others to take of their rose coloured glasses, pure gold.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

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    Those are not the facts according to Lance, Oso. The facts are its been a "witch hunt" on Lance and after nearly ten years they have it all figured out... not so fast Sherlock... my point is simply the sport and others are riddled with PEDs... lets not be so quick to throw stones and in Lance's case the board was "hellbend" on conviction.. and Lance finally is feedup with trying to convince a board of judges who really have have greater problems with their sport .... this one is personal and if you can't see that...and if it makes you feel better each day to throw stones at the greatest American this sport has ever known.. more power to you.

  88. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    Those are not the facts according to Lance, Oso. The facts are its been a "witch hunt" on Lance and after nearly ten years they have it all figured out... not so fast Sherlock... my point is simply the sport and others are riddled with PEDs... lets not be so quick to throw stones and in Lance's case the board was "hellbend" on conviction.. and Lance finally is feedup with trying to convince a board of judges who really have have greater problems with their sport .... this one is personal and if you can't see that...and if it makes you feel better each day to throw stones at the greatest American this sport has ever known.. more power to you.
    Brad , at least look at this thread poll results before you start pointing fingers and ridiculing people. It takes many years and lots of hard work to crack such a sophisticated cheating network that Lance has built. Can't take that one from him - I have to admit that. It was almost perfect. However, the justice may be slow, but in this case - it was merciless.

    If you prefer to call it witch hunt - sure. By all means. But the witch has been caught.

    Your statement that Lance was tired of defending himself is very uninformed and false. He was not tired to sue everyone's a$$ for millions of dollars if they dared to suggest that he doped.

    Now that it is not a secret any more - he may have to cough up some money back to those he sued.

    Why would not he sue USADA and get a few million extra bucks? Which he could have spent on his favourite charity?

    If you don't know the answer - let me know. I will do my best to present you some factual answers - which you could have found everywhere - if you really wanted.

    Instead, you stick your head in the sand and have wet dreams about the most successful American athlete... Pretty sad if you ask me - but you are entitled to your opinion and most certainly - your own heroes.

    Power to you my friend.

  89. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    off the top of your head, without googling, name 5 other dirty riders.

    You most likely can't unless you really follow the sport. Know why? Most cheaters admitted it when confronted with the evidence so there was never much fanfare over them in the media. They just "manned up", took their lumps, and moved on. In fact, many came forward solely at the prompting of their own conscience. Now that is called honor and integrity.

    Know why la is called a liar? Simple... Because he is one. Because he continues to deny being dirty despite the mountain of evidence against him including multiple failed drug tests and payoff to cover dirty drug tests. Know why he's in the news? Because he's a liar that made a huge public spectacle about being all butt hurt over the allegations he cheated (including ruining the lives/careers/finances of those making them) only to be found that the allegations were true all along. And even in the face of it all, he maintains his innocence. Now that is textbook narcissism of a sociopath.

    Part of formulating a coherent, relevant argument in a debate is actually knowing wtf you're talking about -- a luxury you clearly don't have. So instead you elect to paint the walls with your explosive verbal diarrhea then stand back proudly imagining yourself so profound and enlightened when in reality all that's come out of your mouth is excrement.


    Therein lies the definition of honor and integrity. A man of substance who's character is defined by honor and integrity would rather never "make it" and be relegated to historical irrelevance than to win by cheating.

    There are rules one agrees to abide by when applying for and being granted a license. Racers who disregard those rules have no honor or integrity, and that is not part of the game. People who do not believe the rules apply to them are called "sociopaths" and it is considered a serious character defect and mental disorder.

    Those who defend these sociopathic cheaters possess the self-same lack of honor, character, and integrity as those whom they defend. You are disgracing yourself with your argument and showing that at a core level your soul is putrid and your heart rancid.

    You're nothing more than a sociopath just like the ones you defend. "birds of a feather" and so forth...


    Last time i checked the record books la did not win a single tdf due to being disqualified for cheating. Of course to his fellow sociopaths he will always remain their champion and they will cry "unfair!" that he was held accountable for his actions.

    Unwittingly you've finally uttered some truth, however. In saying la "deserves everything he has earned" you are correct.

    He has earned the titles of "cheater", "liar", "extortionist", "blackmailer", "fraud", "perjurer" and "the biggest disgrace in the history of cycling" -- and as you stated he deserves everything he has earned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    Those are not the facts according to Lance, Oso. The facts are its been a "witch hunt" on Lance and after nearly ten years they have it all figured out... not so fast Sherlock... my point is simply the sport and others are riddled with PEDs... lets not be so quick to throw stones and in Lance's case the board was "hellbend" on conviction.. and Lance finally is feedup with trying to convince a board of judges who really have have greater problems with their sport .... this one is personal and if you can't see that...and if it makes you feel better each day to throw stones at the greatest American this sport has ever known.. more power to you.
    Easily the most dellusional post ive ever read on MTBR.....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    The human centipede trifecta / three headed hydra of selfrighteous overblown shutins of monogod-osokolo- tones is cuing the fanboy accusations...it won't be long now...
    Well spoken from the guy that got his lawyer qualifications out of the bottom of a box of weeties...
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  92. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    Those are not the facts according to Lance, Oso. The facts are its been a "witch hunt" on Lance and after nearly ten years they have it all figured out... not so fast Sherlock... my point is simply the sport and others are riddled with PEDs... lets not be so quick to throw stones and in Lance's case the board was "hellbend" on conviction.. and Lance finally is feedup with trying to convince a board of judges who really have have greater problems with their sport .... this one is personal and if you can't see that...and if it makes you feel better each day to throw stones at the greatest American this sport has ever known.. more power to you.
    Wake up, smell the coffee and throw away yesterday's papers. Armstrong was the greatest cheater and disgrace the sport has ever known. The greatest American cyclist was Greg Lemond. You can look it up.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

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    Let's make this easy and get to the end.

    Lance is a loser.... If you dont argee, It's ok that you are wrong.


    There, now I'm unsubscribing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo View Post
    off the top of your head, without googling, name 5 other dirty riders.
    mercier, hamilton, hincape, pantani, landis, brochard, and leblanc.

    i can name off many more if you'd like. as an avid cyclist (road and mtn) i following road racing. that's why i stated to you, "most likely you can't unless you really follow the sport". however i could because i do. yet because you don't follow the sport you couldn't and you only proved my position while yet again fancying yourself to be so clever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo
    Are you kidding me, MonoGod? I must say, after reading your reply, you need to be tested for drugs...
    of course it's not going to make sense to someone devoid of personal integrity. didn't expect it to and was not the least bit surprised it didn't.

    however that begs the following question: am i the one defending lying, cheating, extortion, bribery, perjury, and having a complete disregard for the rules in order to get what one wants?

    no. you are.

    by definition that makes you just as much of a sociopath as the individual you're defending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo
    here is a "quota from wikipedia on Tour de France

    "For as long as the Tour has existed, since 1903, its participants have been doping themselves. No dope, no hope. The Tour, in fact, is only possible because - not despite the fact - there is doping. For 60 years this was allowed. For the past 30 years it has been officially prohibited. Yet the fact remains; great cyclists have been doping themselves, then as now.[3]
    when it was allowed all was fair game. once it was disallowed it became an activity contravened by the rules (i.e. "cheating").

    we're not discussing the years there were no prohibitions to PED's in the tour. we're talking about violation of rules one agrees to be bound by when applying for and being granted a license and the privilege to compete in professional cycling. specifically we're talking about the most corrupt cyclist in the history of the sport and his actions.

    you defend them and say he should be rewarded for them. myself and others disagree.

    no matter how you try to spin it, you're advocating cheating. by your own argument you've exposed yourself to be a sociopath of questionable character, morals, and devoid of integrity.

    if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and so forth...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpreo
    thank you for your reply and offering for everyone to read, the exact viewpoint I was referrring to ,,,
    my viewpoint is actually one that most of society agrees with. specifically that it's wrong to cheat to win. that lying, cheating, extortion, retaliation, perjury, and illegal behavior are not an acceptable means to an end and should be punished rather than rewarded.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    It does not matter what one believes, what matters is actual Evidence, Belief is in something you are not certain of. So from the lack of Evidence I KNOW Lance is Innocent.
    + 100% on the above. Until he is fund guilty by a jury of his peers, it is unfair for any of us to have on opinion one way or the other regarding his guilt or innocense. We weren't there and we don't know what really happenened.

  96. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Au contraire! it wasn't Wheeties at all! It was Grape Nuts, that way I could send in the box top and get an MBA (more ******** again) or a phd (piled higher and deeper).
    LOL, well played, i'll pay that one dave,
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  97. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr
    It does not matter what one believes, what matters is actual Evidence, Belief is in something you are not certain of. So from the lack of Evidence I KNOW Lance is Innocent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn
    + 100% on the above. Until he is fund guilty by a jury of his peers, it is unfair for any of us to have on opinion one way or the other regarding his guilt or innocense. We weren't there and we don't know what really happenened.
    we weren't there, but scores of others were. some who doped with him. some who helped him dope. some who helped him cover it up. most all of whom who have submitted sworn testimony and were willing to testify in an open hearing. in legal terms that is referred to as "evidence".

    lance failed several drug tests which revealed he was using PED's and/or banned substances. in legal terms this is also referred to as "evidence".

    there are financial records showing payouts to ferrari, whom he swore under oath to have no contact with, of over a million dollars. in legal terms this is also referred to as "evidence".

    there are financial records showing a total of $250,000 paid to the UCI immediately after he failed a drug test. a failed drug test for which he suffered no repercussion. in legal terms this is referred to not only as "evidence" but also a "bribe".

    there are countless emails showing lance conspired with ferrari and others to cheat, dope, lie, cover it up, intimidate and retaliate against people who were not "playing for the team". in legal terms this is also referred to as.... wait for it.... wait for it.... "evidence".

    further, if one enters a plea bargain and accepts the punishment offered rather than face a trial they have been adjudicated guilty just as if there had been a trial.

    lance had the opportunity to face every shred of evidence against him as well as the scores of witnesses ready to testify against him. he declined. instead he dropped his defense and willing accepted the punishment rather than face his accusers and the evidence in an open, formal hearing. that, along with the fact he had literally no witnesses testifying to his innocence, speaks volumes.

    so tell us, if he willingly accepted the sanctions against him why do you refuse to?

    his own actions refute both of you.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

  98. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    + 100% on the above. Until he is fund guilty by a jury of his peers, it is unfair for any of us to have on opinion one way or the other regarding his guilt or innocense. We weren't there and we don't know what really happenened.
    Shawn, he had the chance to face the mountain of evidence against him, but he chose not to because he knew he would be found guilty, then he would be liable, and the findings would show him out to be the biggest cheat, bully and liar in the history of sport.
    Shawn watch the documentary 'the world according to lance', come back and tell me if you still have the same opinion, also, read the findings of the USADA.
    Theres no grey area, he is as guilty as one could possably be.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  99. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogod View Post
    we weren't there, but scores of others were. some who doped with him. some who helped him dope. some who helped him cover it up. most all of whom who have submitted sworn testimony and were willing to testify in an open hearing. in legal terms that is referred to as "evidence".

    lance failed several drug tests which revealed he was using PED's and/or banned substances. in legal terms this is also referred to as "evidence".

    there are financial records showing payouts to ferrari, whom he swore under oath to have no contact with, of over a million dollars. in legal terms this is also referred to as "evidence".

    there are financial records showing a total of $250,000 paid to the UCI immediately after he failed a drug test. a failed drug test for which he suffered no repercussion. in legal terms this is referred to not only as "evidence" but also a "bribe".

    there are countless emails showing lance conspired with ferrari and others to cheat, dope, lie, cover it up, intimidate and retaliate against people who were not "playing for the team". in legal terms this is also referred to as.... wait for it.... wait for it.... "evidence".

    further, if one enters a plea bargain and accepts the punishment offered rather than face a trial they have been adjudicated guilty just as if there had been a trial.

    lance had the opportunity to face every shred of evidence against him as well as the scores of witnesses ready to testify against him. he declined. instead he dropped his defense and willing accepted the punishment rather than face his accusers and the evidence in an open, formal hearing. that, along with the fact he had literally no witnesses testifying to his innocence, speaks volumes.

    so tell us, if he willingly accepted the sanctions against him why do you refuse to?

    his own actions refute both of you.
    Well said mono, only a complete imbo would argue with this....
    Honestly, no wonder there are people that still believe that the earth is flat, youve only gotta read this thread to understand that.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  100. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Well said mono, only a complete imbo would argue with this....
    and one probably will in short order.
    "Knowledge is good." ~ Emil Faber

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