• 10-12-2012
    jeffscott
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Yes, the UCI came into compliance with WADA code in 2004 otherwise all cycling events were going to be nixed from the Olympics. Cycling - via the UCI - was the last and final holdout among all Olympic sports to agree to the WADA code. What I cannot recall with any certainty is whether there was an alternate, but still enforceable, anti-doping agreement tied to licenses and the license application process prior to 2004. I'm pretty certain there was, but not 100% positive. I didn't really pay close attention, because I had no qualms about signing off on my agreement to any anti-doping compliance measures and rules.



    The WADA code and rules are retroactive. The rider signs off on their agreement to the WADA code during the licensing process. If the rider has a "shady" past and doesn't want to be subject to retroactive processes, they have the option to not apply for their license. Armstrong chose to apply. Case closed.

    nope not case closed maybe for you.....but retroactive rules are not fair by any standard....

    BTW what clause makes it retroactive.
  • 10-12-2012
    pursuiter
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    I don't think he ever promised not to take PEDs ...

    His contract with Coke and USPS promised that he followed all doping rules and his agent changed the Coke contract to read that Lance was clean and would pay back all $$ if Lance failed a dope test (sneaky agent, naive Coke executives).

    Quote:

    The civil arbitration in Nov 2005 was called to adjudicate between Armstrong (and his company Tailwind Sports) against SCA Promotions Inc and Ted Lyonhamman Insurance Services. The latter were reluctant to pay out the $5  million bonus due to Armstrong after he won his sixth *consecutive Tour de France, as rumours spread as to his possible use of performance-enhancing drugs.

    The insurance company and SCA wanted assurances that he was not doping before paying out, Armstrong wanted his money so, at Armstrong’s insistence, they went to court.

    The action was laid at the Dallas County District Court, but Armstrong gave three and a half hours’ evidence in a video recording conducted at the law offices of Herman, Howry and Breen in Austin, Texas. It was made clear to Armstrong that “penalties of perjury attach to this deposition just like they would to a court of law proceeding”.

    USADA lists the seven instances of alleged perjury as:
    1. That Dr Michele Ferrari, the Italian who USADA accused of being US Postal’s doping mastermind, never prescribed, administered or suggested any kind of a drug or doping programme for Lance Armstrong.

    2. That there was nothing in Armstrong’s dealings with Dr Ferrari that would suggest that Dr Ferrari was encouraging other athletes to use performance enhancing drugs.

    3. That Armstrong had not had any professional relationship with Dr Ferrari since October 1, 2004.

    4. That Armstrong never violated the rules of the UCI or the Tour de France in connection with the Tour de France in 2001, 2002, 2003 or 2004.

    5. That Armstrong had never taken any performance-enhancing drug in connection with his cycling career.

    6. That Armstrong never knew of Tyler Hamilton using illegal substances when on the same team.

    7. That Hamilton did not dope while he was on Armstrong’s team.

    The US Attorney’s office in Los Angeles remained tight-lipped last night on whether the damning USADA report will lead to a reopening of the criminal investigation against Armstrong. When asked by The Daily Telegraph whether the USADA report constituted new evidence, a spokesman for the US Attorney’s office in LA said: “We are not commenting in relation to the USADA report.”
  • 10-12-2012
    Circlip
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    btw what clause makes it retroactive.

    24.5 which then references Article 10 in turn.
  • 10-12-2012
    BacDoc
    You want evidence? Under all those Trek and Livestrong decals this is the bike Lance used for his tour wins The Rasta Works Ganja Pro 4:20:



    What was he on? He was on the Ganja 6 hrs a day! Tough long rides are a lot less painful when you're on the Ganja!
  • 10-12-2012
    mbco1975
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SlowerJoe View Post
    Lance should have used the chewbacca defense.

    Sj

    :lol::lol: I love that episode.....

    ...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury
  • 10-12-2012
    AZ
    This Postal rider did the right thing:

    BBC Sport - Lance Armstrong case creates an unlikely hero
  • 10-12-2012
    heyyall
    Az, as always, good stuff.
  • 10-12-2012
    dickeydoo
    ^^^^ Notice there is an ad for EPO-Boost in Az's link.:(
  • 10-12-2012
    heyyall
    Well, the local nutrition store today was running a radio ad for over the counter human growth hormone supplement that was guaranteed to add muscle mass in less than a month.
  • 10-12-2012
    Circlip
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by heyyall View Post
    Well, the local nutrition store today was running a radio ad for over the counter human growth hormone supplement that was guaranteed to add muscle mass in less than a month.

    Also, don't forget to completely disregard any instructions or warnings on the label. Whatever you can fit in your stomach is the proper dose.
  • 10-12-2012
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Also, don't forget to completely disregard any instructions or warnings on the label. Whatever you can fit in your stomach is the proper dose.

    Dammit, I just had my stomach size reduced to combat my weight control issues - now I gotta go get it increased so I can be strong n fast. :madman::madman::madman:
  • 10-13-2012
    adam728
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    This Postal rider did the right thing:

    BBC Sport - Lance Armstrong case creates an unlikely hero

    Great that Mercier resisted the pressure, and even made the hard choice to walk away. BUT, what part of this gives him the "hero" label? Didn't try and bring it to light, get it stopped, etc (from the way the story reads anyway).
  • 10-13-2012
    Blurr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    24.5 which then references Article 10 in turn.

    Of course it does, the entire thing states they can do absolutely anything they want, which is amazing you or anyone else would support an organization that writes its own rules while coming down on Lance for the organizations subjective accusations on his supposedly ( never proven) not following the rules.


    Really the USADA has done more to encourage Doping than otherwise, with their draconian witch hunts, their blackmailing of atheletes to get the accusations they are looking for they are sending a message to the Youth that it is Impossible to have great success without Cheating, how wonderful, I wonder if they will now find a way to go back and Strip Jack Lalane of all the great superhuman feats he did :rolleyes:


    Edit: And what is the point in having testing if the USADA can merely decide you were cheating anyhow?
  • 10-13-2012
    Tone's
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Of course it does, the entire thing states they can do absolutely anything they want, which is amazing you or anyone else would support an organization that writes its own rules while coming down on Lance for the organizations subjective accusations on his supposedly ( never proven) not following the rules.


    Really the USADA has done more to encourage Doping than otherwise, with their draconian witch hunts, their blackmailing of atheletes to get the accusations they are looking for they are sending a message to the Youth that it is Impossible to have great success without Cheating, how wonderful, I wonder if they will now find a way to go back and Strip Jack Lalane of all the great superhuman feats he did :rolleyes:


    Edit: And what is the point in having testing if the USADA can merely decide you were cheating anyhow?

    Blur, you must be takin the piss, i read some ridiculous things on here but this is right up there with the best of em......
  • 10-13-2012
    tl1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PdlPwr View Post
    Yes, this.

    Make it three because the entire pro peloton was on the juice in one way or the other during Armstrong's tenure. Doing a better, more professional job of juicing was just one more integral component of winning and being a winner on the highest level of competition on the world stage. His wins and titles should stand because he was the best athlete and the best at the doping game too.
  • 10-14-2012
    cda 455
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    Blur, you must be takin the piss, i read some ridiculous things on here but this is right up there with the best of em......

    Totally agree.


    Talk about a poast that makes absolutely no sense. Especially when the info is out there to read.
  • 10-14-2012
    Sandrenseren
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ryguy135 View Post
    Just curious what public opinion is.

    Okay, then where are the option to answer that I don't give a rats ass, I still admire him for what he did on a bike, no matter what some suits in a courtroom decides years later?
  • 10-14-2012
    41ants
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Okay, then where are the option to answer that I don't give a rats ass, I still admire him for what he did on a bike, no matter what some suits in a courtroom decides years later?

    Yup, I don't care if he doped or not..much like i don't care if people are doping in the NFL, NCAA, MLB, or if the guy next to me in the gym is all dieseled up.

    Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2
  • 10-14-2012
    Blurr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Okay, then where are the option to answer that I don't give a rats ass, I still admire him for what he did on a bike, no matter what some suits in a courtroom decides years later?

    This save there is no courtroom :(
  • 10-14-2012
    SV11
    I feel sorry for all the kids that looked up to him. He knew he was a role model but continued to dope up year after year.
    So he (Lance) knew all along he could not of won the TDF year after year without being on performance enhancing drugs....why else would he have been on it.
  • 10-14-2012
    dwt
    What jock sniffing head-in-the sand dimwits like Blur ignore are the non dopers in the Armstrong era. Those are the guys who deserve admiration for courage:

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...epo-era_258522

    http://m.guardiannews.com/sport/2012...t&type=article

    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...-says-Hamilton

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/othe...t-3257272.html




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-14-2012
    SlopeRiderSC
    Clear now that LA is in deep trouble. But what can we say about all those that were 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... behind him during his long reign on the Tour ?

    LA might be deleted from the results and then what ? Who's going to be declared winner of the Tour and what will happen ?
    Ullrich, Vinokurov, Klöden, Basso, etc...
    That's a joke...
  • 10-14-2012
    dirtdan
    Of course he did. He's a top athlete that was winning a lot. It's what they do...
  • 10-14-2012
    Circlip
    This question has been asked and answered probably 50 times already in all the various Armstrong threads, but in for a penny in for a pound, so I'll answer it yet once again.

    Here`s a link to the latest comments from Christian Prudhomme, race director for the Tour de France suggesting that the best resolution is to leave a blank spot in the results i.e. no winner (as has been discussed and proposed several times in this thread already);

    Tour De France Director Against Reassigning Armstrong’s Victories | Cyclingnews.com


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SlopeRiderSC View Post
    Clear now that LA is in deep trouble. But what can we say about all those that were 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... behind him during his long reign on the Tour ?

    LA might be deleted from the results and then what ? Who's going to be declared winner of the Tour and what will happen ?
    Ullrich, Vinokurov, Klöden, Basso, etc...
    That's a joke...

  • 10-14-2012
    coal mountain
    i have seen through LA for awhile, and i do not support his racing actions. but on the tittles i think they should stand as a reminder of what happened. all too often history is written by the victors. LA not sure if the Postal money was tax dollars or not. also how much does livestrong benefit cancer patients?
    my hate of cheaters is strong but my ability to forgive is greater, LA justapologizee and we can move on. help clean up sports.
  • 10-14-2012
    Blurr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    This question has been asked and answered probably 50 times already in all the various Armstrong threads, but in for a penny in for a pound, so I'll answer it yet once again.

    Here`s a link to the latest comments from Christian Prudhomme, race director for the Tour de France suggesting that the best resolution is to leave a blank spot in the results i.e. no winner (as has been discussed and proposed several times in this thread already);

    Tour De France Director Against Reassigning Armstrong’s Victories | Cyclingnews.com

    How idiotic can you get, regardless of if he was guilty or not, if the titles exist currently or not, Lance will always be known as the person who won the tour de france seven times.
  • 10-14-2012
    Tone's
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    How idiotic can you get, regardless of if he was guilty or not, if the titles exist currently or not, Lance will always be known as the person who won the tour de france seven times.

    No, he will be remembered as the guy who cheated his was to 7 tour wins, you left out the 'cheated' part.
    Blurr while i respect your sticking to your guns and persistence in these lance threads are you a dead set raving lunatic or what?:D
  • 10-14-2012
    Blurr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    No, he will be remembered as the guy who cheated his was to 7 tour wins, you left out the 'cheated' part.
    Blurr while i respect your sticking to your guns and persistence in these lance threads are you a dead set raving lunatic or what?:D

    Days off and the weather sucks, so may as well argue :cool:
  • 10-14-2012
    Circlip
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    How idiotic can you get, regardless of if he was guilty or not, if the titles exist currently or not, Lance will always be known as the person who won the tour de france seven times.

    I can only speak for myself, but that's not the way I'll remember him. Others will have opinions that go both ways, in some % split.
  • 10-14-2012
    heyyall
    I think I will remember Lance as a person that changed cycling. For better or worse, the sport was changed by him, and importantly will improve as a result of him.
  • 10-14-2012
    Zen Cyclery
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by horsey24 View Post
    there is no law against paying money for a doctor.

    what evidence links that money with drugs?

    It is actually very illegal for Ferrara to accept money in this type of scenario. He essentially acted as an open pharmacy for Lance and I see huge correlations between this and the Michael Jackson fiasco.
    Ferrara is a POS and I hope he ends up in jail.
  • 10-14-2012
    eclipse24
    In the past, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But now, with all his teammates coming clean (no pun intended), I believe he juiced like the rest.
  • 10-14-2012
    Blurr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by heyyall View Post
    I think I will remember Lance as a person that changed cycling. For better or worse, the sport was changed by him, and importantly will improve as a result of him.

    +1 He put cycling on the map for America that is for sure.

    He and Landis gave hope to people who previously thought such things were a sentence to living life in misery, that is way cool.
  • 10-14-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Days off and the weather sucks, so may as well argue :cool:

    Arguing with you is like arguing with someone who insists OJ didn't kill his wife. Credulous uncritical people aren't worth the effort.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-14-2012
    Geralt
    At some time over the years I came to the realization that Armstrong was a doper. I came to the realization that all top road cyclists of his era were doping. I hadn't followed the Armstrong saga closely, so what I hadn't known until recently was just how dirty he was about smearing and intimidating people who told the truth about him and how central he was to coercing other cyclists to follow his doping scheme.
  • 10-14-2012
    Rod
    Here is my disclaimer: This is only my opinion.

    I do think Lance cheated. Even though I believe he cheated what he still did was amazing. Lets stick to the facts. This man had cancer, overcame it , and still became a pro cyclist. That would have been enough for me to admire anyone. If he would've won 1 race I would have been shocked, but this guy won the TDF 7 times. If you look at that era there was a doping epidemic. How could a guy beat a field of dopers if he didn't dope? Did he just train that much better? I would like to believe that, but I don't. If he did or didn't dope what he did on the bike was extraordinary.

    I admire the local guy who rides with me that had cancer.
  • 10-14-2012
    Geralt
    If he'd admit it and apologize to the people he's treated so badly along the way, I think he'd still be widely admired. I think he's under too much financial jeopardy and possibly even legal jeopardy for him to do that though.
  • 10-14-2012
    lapinGTI
    The best contribution of lance to USA, is that he show you where the effel tower is actually from, Not Las Vegas.
  • 10-15-2012
    SV11
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
    At some time over the years I came to the realization that Armstrong was a doper. I came to the realization that all top road cyclists of his era were doping. I hadn't followed the Armstrong saga closely, so what I hadn't known until recently was just how dirty he was about smearing and intimidating people who told the truth about him and how central he was to coercing other cyclists to follow his doping scheme.

    So true, doping is one thing, but his antics will be remembered.
    What he didn't realise is this whole doping saga was going to surface sooner or later.
    The reason it was going to surface is becasue a lot of people knew about his doping, most of those people weren't exactly friends. I wonder how many blackmail attempts he has lived through.
    He isnt an intelligent guy, plus did he really think he could get away with winning 7 titles and no one getting suspicous? He got greedy. (He isnt superman ffs)
    He can never be the rider that Cadel Evans is.
    LA did put cycling on the map, but for all the wrong reasons.
  • 10-15-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Make it three because the entire pro peloton was on the juice in one way or the other during Armstrong's tenure. Doing a better, more professional job of juicing was just one more integral component of winning and being a winner on the highest level of competition on the world stage. His wins and titles should stand because he was the best athlete and the best at the doping game too.

    WTF?

    Yes Armstrong was the strongest and smartest doped rider on a playing field of MOSTLY doped riders. Barry Bonds hit more home runs and roger Clemens struck out more batters than any other doped baseball players. Marion Jones was the fastest runner among doped Olympians.

    Damn, that makes me feel good.

    BUT, the ENTIRE pro peloton was NOT doped in the Armstrong era. There were at least a few honest/courageous riders who refused to risk their health to win, to be competitive, or even just stay employed in the sport. It was these people who got f***ed up the ass by rampant doping.

    Armstrong was/is a lying self centered psychopathic bully who deserves zero respect for anything he accomplished, surviving cancer, being the best doper, winning 7 tdf while doped to the gills, or whatever. He has to come clean like all his teammates before he can salvage anything he has left.
  • 10-15-2012
    tl1
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    WTF?

    Yes Armstrong was the strongest and smartest doped rider on a playing field of MOSTLY doped riders. Barry Bonds hit more home runs and roger Clemens struck out more batters than any other doped baseball players. Marion Jones was the fastest runner among doped Olympians.

    Damn, that makes me feel good.

    BUT, the ENTIRE pro peloton was NOT doped in the Armstrong era. There were at least a few honest/courageous riders who refused to risk their health to win, to be competitive, or even just stay employed in the sport. It was these people who got f***ed up the ass by rampant doping.

    Armstrong was/is a lying self centered psychopathic bully who deserves zero respect for anything he accomplished, surviving cancer, being the best doper, winning 7 tdf while doped to the gills, or whatever. He has to come clean like all his teammates before he can salvage anything he has left.


    Well first of all, I don't think that the doping with performance enhancing drugs of that period necessarily caused people to "risk their own health". All the teams had their own doctors coordinating and monitoring the doping. The net effect of the doping was to improve recovery from training and allow extreme volumes of very hard training to produce a stronger body. I know that may be hard to deal with for some people with a simplistic and Puritanical "pure body" mindset but it's true.

    By the vast majority of ex-pro accounts of that era, the doping was a reality among all top riders, sorry. If you want to continue on with your demonizing witch hunt about people being "lying self centered psychopaths" and so on because you're suddenly disillusioned then go for it. To me, the guy (and a lot of other guys) got caught and he's (they're) paying the price and that's enough. I don't feel the need to burn anyone at the stake to purge them of their "evil".
  • 10-15-2012
    SV11
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    By the vast majority of ex-pro accounts of that era, the doping was a reality among all top riders, sorry.

    That might of been the case, but how many of them top doped riders went to the extent that LA did, by intimidating, lying, smearing other people who dropped the beans on him, when he got caught out? Why couldn't he own up to it?
    This isn't just about doping, the guy is a lunatic!
  • 10-15-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Well first of all, I don't think that the doping with performance enhancing drugs of that period necessarily caused people to "risk their own health". All the teams had their own doctors coordinating and monitoring the doping. The net effect of the doping was to improve recovery from training and allow extreme volumes of very hard training to produce a stronger body. I know that may be hard to deal with for some people with a simplistic and Puritanical "pure body" mindset but it's true.

    By the vast majority of ex-pro accounts of that era, the doping was a reality among all top riders, sorry. If you want to continue on with your demonizing witch hunt about people being "lying self centered psychopaths" and so on because you're suddenly disillusioned then go for it. To me, the guy (and a lot of other guys) got caught and he's (they're) paying the price and that's enough. I don't feel the need to burn anyone at the stake to purge them of their "evil".

    Who's "suddenly disillusioned"? This has been going on for more than a decade. Rider after rider has been busted and/or come clean, including every rider your a-hole hero beat or teamed with. If you don't think he's a total a-hole you are the one who is terminally naive and uninformed. As opposed to class acts and admitted dopers George Hincapie and David Millar

    Cadel Evans whom you might have heard of, as former WC mtb champ and TdF winner, was/is a top pro and reputed to be clean

    http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/cycl...-1226495552945

    You want a hero, try a good guy, eh?





    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-15-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Well first of all, I don't think that the doping with performance enhancing drugs of that period necessarily caused people to "risk their own health".

    Use the google why don't you, and see what you can find to refute that fallacy.

    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009...sleep.html?m=1

    http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/epo.shtml




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-15-2012
    Tone's
    The thing that has me astounded is that in the poll above there are 24 yes 24 people that think Lance never doped, they must also me members of the 'flat earth cult'
    But they do say that one in every ten people are insane so the poll above is right on the money....
  • 10-15-2012
    dwt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    The thing that has me astounded is that in the poll above there are 24 yes 24 people that think Lance never doped, they must also me members of the 'flat earth cult'
    But they do say that one in every ten people are insane so the poll above is right on the money....

    You might also call them " low information voters", which is why Presidential elections are so scary.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-15-2012
    Map204
    Good poll....
  • 10-15-2012
    tl1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Use the google why don't you, and see what you can find to refute that fallacy.

    The Science of Sport: Cyclist dies in sleep

    Pete Pfitzinger - Lab Reports - EPO: illegal, effective, and deadly




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    The first link is to a story about a pro cyclist dying in his sleep but there's no reason there as to why it happened then it meanders off into some anecdotes about EPO use, vaguely trying to link the two w/o any evidence. The second link is to a story on the dangers of EPO. Are you saying that performance enhancing drugs can hurt you? Yes they can but any athlete using so much EPO that it endangered their life either had a no doctor supervising its use or an incompetent doctor doing so treating an incompetent patient.

    Is Lance Armstrong dead, blind, crippled or crazy today as a result of using PE drugs? I don't think so. In fact he successfully used EPO under a doctor's care as a vital life giving therapy during his battle with cancer. Tons of people die from using too much alcohol every year but we still aren't afraid to have a drink or two now and again. You can die from drinking too much water too but it's pretty rare. The difference between help and harm with any substance is always in the dose. Some of the anti-PE drug tales are so very reminiscent of the cheesy scare tactics evident in stuff like Reefer Madness.

    I don't condone or use PEDs but for gawds-sake, use a little common sense not just fear tactics. As far as Armstrong goes, the guy and a lot of others got caught for using drugs against the rules for years. His multi-million dollar a year cycling career that gave him international fame, admiration and respect is shot today. That alone should be a lesson for those tempted to do the same. Give it a rest.
  • 10-15-2012
    tl1
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Who's "suddenly disillusioned"? This has been going on for more than a decade. Rider after rider has been busted and/or come clean, including every rider your a-hole hero beat or teamed with. If you don't think he's a total a-hole you are the one who is terminally naive and uninformed. As opposed to class acts and admitted dopers George Hincapie and David Millar

    Cadel Evans whom you might have heard of, as former WC mtb champ and TdF winner, was/is a top pro and reputed to be clean

    Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun

    You want a hero, try a good guy, eh?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Sorry but I haven't looked for any heroes since I was around nine years old and discovered that Superman and Spiderman weren't real people. I guess some of us need them more than others. ;)
  • 10-16-2012
    MikeyHustle
    I have no idea if he was clean or not. But he was tested numerous times, and passed them all.