Poll: Do you think Armstrong doped?

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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Yes, the UCI came into compliance with WADA code in 2004 otherwise all cycling events were going to be nixed from the Olympics. Cycling - via the UCI - was the last and final holdout among all Olympic sports to agree to the WADA code. What I cannot recall with any certainty is whether there was an alternate, but still enforceable, anti-doping agreement tied to licenses and the license application process prior to 2004. I'm pretty certain there was, but not 100% positive. I didn't really pay close attention, because I had no qualms about signing off on my agreement to any anti-doping compliance measures and rules.



    The WADA code and rules are retroactive. The rider signs off on their agreement to the WADA code during the licensing process. If the rider has a "shady" past and doesn't want to be subject to retroactive processes, they have the option to not apply for their license. Armstrong chose to apply. Case closed.
    nope not case closed maybe for you.....but retroactive rules are not fair by any standard....

    BTW what clause makes it retroactive.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    I don't think he ever promised not to take PEDs ...
    His contract with Coke and USPS promised that he followed all doping rules and his agent changed the Coke contract to read that Lance was clean and would pay back all $$ if Lance failed a dope test (sneaky agent, naive Coke executives).

    The civil arbitration in Nov 2005 was called to adjudicate between Armstrong (and his company Tailwind Sports) against SCA Promotions Inc and Ted Lyonhamman Insurance Services. The latter were reluctant to pay out the $5  million bonus due to Armstrong after he won his sixth *consecutive Tour de France, as rumours spread as to his possible use of performance-enhancing drugs.

    The insurance company and SCA wanted assurances that he was not doping before paying out, Armstrong wanted his money so, at Armstrong’s insistence, they went to court.

    The action was laid at the Dallas County District Court, but Armstrong gave three and a half hours’ evidence in a video recording conducted at the law offices of Herman, Howry and Breen in Austin, Texas. It was made clear to Armstrong that “penalties of perjury attach to this deposition just like they would to a court of law proceeding”.

    USADA lists the seven instances of alleged perjury as:
    1. That Dr Michele Ferrari, the Italian who USADA accused of being US Postal’s doping mastermind, never prescribed, administered or suggested any kind of a drug or doping programme for Lance Armstrong.

    2. That there was nothing in Armstrong’s dealings with Dr Ferrari that would suggest that Dr Ferrari was encouraging other athletes to use performance enhancing drugs.

    3. That Armstrong had not had any professional relationship with Dr Ferrari since October 1, 2004.

    4. That Armstrong never violated the rules of the UCI or the Tour de France in connection with the Tour de France in 2001, 2002, 2003 or 2004.

    5. That Armstrong had never taken any performance-enhancing drug in connection with his cycling career.

    6. That Armstrong never knew of Tyler Hamilton using illegal substances when on the same team.

    7. That Hamilton did not dope while he was on Armstrong’s team.

    The US Attorney’s office in Los Angeles remained tight-lipped last night on whether the damning USADA report will lead to a reopening of the criminal investigation against Armstrong. When asked by The Daily Telegraph whether the USADA report constituted new evidence, a spokesman for the US Attorney’s office in LA said: “We are not commenting in relation to the USADA report.”
    Last edited by pursuiter; 10-12-2012 at 12:09 PM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffscott View Post
    btw what clause makes it retroactive.
    24.5 which then references Article 10 in turn.

  4. #104
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    You want evidence? Under all those Trek and Livestrong decals this is the bike Lance used for his tour wins The Rasta Works Ganja Pro 4:20:



    What was he on? He was on the Ganja 6 hrs a day! Tough long rides are a lot less painful when you're on the Ganja!

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerJoe View Post
    Lance should have used the chewbacca defense.

    Sj
    I love that episode.....

    ...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury

  6. #106
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    This Postal rider did the right thing:

    BBC Sport - Lance Armstrong case creates an unlikely hero

  7. #107
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    Az, as always, good stuff.
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  8. #108
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    ^^^^ Notice there is an ad for EPO-Boost in Az's link.
    You will be scarred for life if you click my avatar

  9. #109
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    Well, the local nutrition store today was running a radio ad for over the counter human growth hormone supplement that was guaranteed to add muscle mass in less than a month.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyyall View Post
    Well, the local nutrition store today was running a radio ad for over the counter human growth hormone supplement that was guaranteed to add muscle mass in less than a month.
    Also, don't forget to completely disregard any instructions or warnings on the label. Whatever you can fit in your stomach is the proper dose.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Also, don't forget to completely disregard any instructions or warnings on the label. Whatever you can fit in your stomach is the proper dose.
    Dammit, I just had my stomach size reduced to combat my weight control issues - now I gotta go get it increased so I can be strong n fast.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    This Postal rider did the right thing:

    BBC Sport - Lance Armstrong case creates an unlikely hero
    Great that Mercier resisted the pressure, and even made the hard choice to walk away. BUT, what part of this gives him the "hero" label? Didn't try and bring it to light, get it stopped, etc (from the way the story reads anyway).
    "It was like a German, techno-weird, acid trip." - The Hoff -

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    24.5 which then references Article 10 in turn.
    Of course it does, the entire thing states they can do absolutely anything they want, which is amazing you or anyone else would support an organization that writes its own rules while coming down on Lance for the organizations subjective accusations on his supposedly ( never proven) not following the rules.


    Really the USADA has done more to encourage Doping than otherwise, with their draconian witch hunts, their blackmailing of atheletes to get the accusations they are looking for they are sending a message to the Youth that it is Impossible to have great success without Cheating, how wonderful, I wonder if they will now find a way to go back and Strip Jack Lalane of all the great superhuman feats he did


    Edit: And what is the point in having testing if the USADA can merely decide you were cheating anyhow?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Of course it does, the entire thing states they can do absolutely anything they want, which is amazing you or anyone else would support an organization that writes its own rules while coming down on Lance for the organizations subjective accusations on his supposedly ( never proven) not following the rules.


    Really the USADA has done more to encourage Doping than otherwise, with their draconian witch hunts, their blackmailing of atheletes to get the accusations they are looking for they are sending a message to the Youth that it is Impossible to have great success without Cheating, how wonderful, I wonder if they will now find a way to go back and Strip Jack Lalane of all the great superhuman feats he did


    Edit: And what is the point in having testing if the USADA can merely decide you were cheating anyhow?
    Blur, you must be takin the piss, i read some ridiculous things on here but this is right up there with the best of em......
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by PdlPwr View Post
    Yes, this.
    Make it three because the entire pro peloton was on the juice in one way or the other during Armstrong's tenure. Doing a better, more professional job of juicing was just one more integral component of winning and being a winner on the highest level of competition on the world stage. His wins and titles should stand because he was the best athlete and the best at the doping game too.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    Blur, you must be takin the piss, i read some ridiculous things on here but this is right up there with the best of em......
    Totally agree.


    Talk about a poast that makes absolutely no sense. Especially when the info is out there to read.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy135 View Post
    Just curious what public opinion is.
    Okay, then where are the option to answer that I don't give a rats ass, I still admire him for what he did on a bike, no matter what some suits in a courtroom decides years later?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Okay, then where are the option to answer that I don't give a rats ass, I still admire him for what he did on a bike, no matter what some suits in a courtroom decides years later?
    Yup, I don't care if he doped or not..much like i don't care if people are doping in the NFL, NCAA, MLB, or if the guy next to me in the gym is all dieseled up.

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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Okay, then where are the option to answer that I don't give a rats ass, I still admire him for what he did on a bike, no matter what some suits in a courtroom decides years later?
    This save there is no courtroom

  20. #120
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    I feel sorry for all the kids that looked up to him. He knew he was a role model but continued to dope up year after year.
    So he (Lance) knew all along he could not of won the TDF year after year without being on performance enhancing drugs....why else would he have been on it.

  21. #121
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    What jock sniffing head-in-the sand dimwits like Blur ignore are the non dopers in the Armstrong era. Those are the guys who deserve admiration for courage:

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...epo-era_258522

    http://m.guardiannews.com/sport/2012...t&type=article

    http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...-says-Hamilton

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/othe...t-3257272.html




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  22. #122
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    Clear now that LA is in deep trouble. But what can we say about all those that were 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... behind him during his long reign on the Tour ?

    LA might be deleted from the results and then what ? Who's going to be declared winner of the Tour and what will happen ?
    Ullrich, Vinokurov, Klöden, Basso, etc...
    That's a joke...

  23. #123
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    Of course he did. He's a top athlete that was winning a lot. It's what they do...

  24. #124
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    This question has been asked and answered probably 50 times already in all the various Armstrong threads, but in for a penny in for a pound, so I'll answer it yet once again.

    Here`s a link to the latest comments from Christian Prudhomme, race director for the Tour de France suggesting that the best resolution is to leave a blank spot in the results i.e. no winner (as has been discussed and proposed several times in this thread already);

    Tour De France Director Against Reassigning Armstrong’s Victories | Cyclingnews.com


    Quote Originally Posted by SlopeRiderSC View Post
    Clear now that LA is in deep trouble. But what can we say about all those that were 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc... behind him during his long reign on the Tour ?

    LA might be deleted from the results and then what ? Who's going to be declared winner of the Tour and what will happen ?
    Ullrich, Vinokurov, Klöden, Basso, etc...
    That's a joke...

  25. #125
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    i have seen through LA for awhile, and i do not support his racing actions. but on the tittles i think they should stand as a reminder of what happened. all too often history is written by the victors. LA not sure if the Postal money was tax dollars or not. also how much does livestrong benefit cancer patients?
    my hate of cheaters is strong but my ability to forgive is greater, LA justapologizee and we can move on. help clean up sports.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    This question has been asked and answered probably 50 times already in all the various Armstrong threads, but in for a penny in for a pound, so I'll answer it yet once again.

    Here`s a link to the latest comments from Christian Prudhomme, race director for the Tour de France suggesting that the best resolution is to leave a blank spot in the results i.e. no winner (as has been discussed and proposed several times in this thread already);

    Tour De France Director Against Reassigning Armstrong’s Victories | Cyclingnews.com
    How idiotic can you get, regardless of if he was guilty or not, if the titles exist currently or not, Lance will always be known as the person who won the tour de france seven times.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    How idiotic can you get, regardless of if he was guilty or not, if the titles exist currently or not, Lance will always be known as the person who won the tour de france seven times.
    No, he will be remembered as the guy who cheated his was to 7 tour wins, you left out the 'cheated' part.
    Blurr while i respect your sticking to your guns and persistence in these lance threads are you a dead set raving lunatic or what?
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    No, he will be remembered as the guy who cheated his was to 7 tour wins, you left out the 'cheated' part.
    Blurr while i respect your sticking to your guns and persistence in these lance threads are you a dead set raving lunatic or what?
    Days off and the weather sucks, so may as well argue

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    How idiotic can you get, regardless of if he was guilty or not, if the titles exist currently or not, Lance will always be known as the person who won the tour de france seven times.
    I can only speak for myself, but that's not the way I'll remember him. Others will have opinions that go both ways, in some % split.

  30. #130
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    I think I will remember Lance as a person that changed cycling. For better or worse, the sport was changed by him, and importantly will improve as a result of him.
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsey24 View Post
    there is no law against paying money for a doctor.

    what evidence links that money with drugs?
    It is actually very illegal for Ferrara to accept money in this type of scenario. He essentially acted as an open pharmacy for Lance and I see huge correlations between this and the Michael Jackson fiasco.
    Ferrara is a POS and I hope he ends up in jail.
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  32. #132
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    In the past, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But now, with all his teammates coming clean (no pun intended), I believe he juiced like the rest.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyyall View Post
    I think I will remember Lance as a person that changed cycling. For better or worse, the sport was changed by him, and importantly will improve as a result of him.
    +1 He put cycling on the map for America that is for sure.

    He and Landis gave hope to people who previously thought such things were a sentence to living life in misery, that is way cool.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Days off and the weather sucks, so may as well argue
    Arguing with you is like arguing with someone who insists OJ didn't kill his wife. Credulous uncritical people aren't worth the effort.


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  35. #135
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    At some time over the years I came to the realization that Armstrong was a doper. I came to the realization that all top road cyclists of his era were doping. I hadn't followed the Armstrong saga closely, so what I hadn't known until recently was just how dirty he was about smearing and intimidating people who told the truth about him and how central he was to coercing other cyclists to follow his doping scheme.

  36. #136
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    Here is my disclaimer: This is only my opinion.

    I do think Lance cheated. Even though I believe he cheated what he still did was amazing. Lets stick to the facts. This man had cancer, overcame it , and still became a pro cyclist. That would have been enough for me to admire anyone. If he would've won 1 race I would have been shocked, but this guy won the TDF 7 times. If you look at that era there was a doping epidemic. How could a guy beat a field of dopers if he didn't dope? Did he just train that much better? I would like to believe that, but I don't. If he did or didn't dope what he did on the bike was extraordinary.

    I admire the local guy who rides with me that had cancer.
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  37. #137
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    If he'd admit it and apologize to the people he's treated so badly along the way, I think he'd still be widely admired. I think he's under too much financial jeopardy and possibly even legal jeopardy for him to do that though.

  38. #138
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    The best contribution of lance to USA, is that he show you where the effel tower is actually from, Not Las Vegas.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
    At some time over the years I came to the realization that Armstrong was a doper. I came to the realization that all top road cyclists of his era were doping. I hadn't followed the Armstrong saga closely, so what I hadn't known until recently was just how dirty he was about smearing and intimidating people who told the truth about him and how central he was to coercing other cyclists to follow his doping scheme.
    So true, doping is one thing, but his antics will be remembered.
    What he didn't realise is this whole doping saga was going to surface sooner or later.
    The reason it was going to surface is becasue a lot of people knew about his doping, most of those people weren't exactly friends. I wonder how many blackmail attempts he has lived through.
    He isnt an intelligent guy, plus did he really think he could get away with winning 7 titles and no one getting suspicous? He got greedy. (He isnt superman ffs)
    He can never be the rider that Cadel Evans is.
    LA did put cycling on the map, but for all the wrong reasons.
    Last edited by SV11; 10-15-2012 at 06:54 AM.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Make it three because the entire pro peloton was on the juice in one way or the other during Armstrong's tenure. Doing a better, more professional job of juicing was just one more integral component of winning and being a winner on the highest level of competition on the world stage. His wins and titles should stand because he was the best athlete and the best at the doping game too.
    WTF?

    Yes Armstrong was the strongest and smartest doped rider on a playing field of MOSTLY doped riders. Barry Bonds hit more home runs and roger Clemens struck out more batters than any other doped baseball players. Marion Jones was the fastest runner among doped Olympians.

    Damn, that makes me feel good.

    BUT, the ENTIRE pro peloton was NOT doped in the Armstrong era. There were at least a few honest/courageous riders who refused to risk their health to win, to be competitive, or even just stay employed in the sport. It was these people who got f***ed up the ass by rampant doping.

    Armstrong was/is a lying self centered psychopathic bully who deserves zero respect for anything he accomplished, surviving cancer, being the best doper, winning 7 tdf while doped to the gills, or whatever. He has to come clean like all his teammates before he can salvage anything he has left.
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  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    WTF?

    Yes Armstrong was the strongest and smartest doped rider on a playing field of MOSTLY doped riders. Barry Bonds hit more home runs and roger Clemens struck out more batters than any other doped baseball players. Marion Jones was the fastest runner among doped Olympians.

    Damn, that makes me feel good.

    BUT, the ENTIRE pro peloton was NOT doped in the Armstrong era. There were at least a few honest/courageous riders who refused to risk their health to win, to be competitive, or even just stay employed in the sport. It was these people who got f***ed up the ass by rampant doping.

    Armstrong was/is a lying self centered psychopathic bully who deserves zero respect for anything he accomplished, surviving cancer, being the best doper, winning 7 tdf while doped to the gills, or whatever. He has to come clean like all his teammates before he can salvage anything he has left.

    Well first of all, I don't think that the doping with performance enhancing drugs of that period necessarily caused people to "risk their own health". All the teams had their own doctors coordinating and monitoring the doping. The net effect of the doping was to improve recovery from training and allow extreme volumes of very hard training to produce a stronger body. I know that may be hard to deal with for some people with a simplistic and Puritanical "pure body" mindset but it's true.

    By the vast majority of ex-pro accounts of that era, the doping was a reality among all top riders, sorry. If you want to continue on with your demonizing witch hunt about people being "lying self centered psychopaths" and so on because you're suddenly disillusioned then go for it. To me, the guy (and a lot of other guys) got caught and he's (they're) paying the price and that's enough. I don't feel the need to burn anyone at the stake to purge them of their "evil".
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Do you believe Lance Armstrong is clean?-burnatthestake.jpg  


  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    By the vast majority of ex-pro accounts of that era, the doping was a reality among all top riders, sorry.
    That might of been the case, but how many of them top doped riders went to the extent that LA did, by intimidating, lying, smearing other people who dropped the beans on him, when he got caught out? Why couldn't he own up to it?
    This isn't just about doping, the guy is a lunatic!

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Well first of all, I don't think that the doping with performance enhancing drugs of that period necessarily caused people to "risk their own health". All the teams had their own doctors coordinating and monitoring the doping. The net effect of the doping was to improve recovery from training and allow extreme volumes of very hard training to produce a stronger body. I know that may be hard to deal with for some people with a simplistic and Puritanical "pure body" mindset but it's true.

    By the vast majority of ex-pro accounts of that era, the doping was a reality among all top riders, sorry. If you want to continue on with your demonizing witch hunt about people being "lying self centered psychopaths" and so on because you're suddenly disillusioned then go for it. To me, the guy (and a lot of other guys) got caught and he's (they're) paying the price and that's enough. I don't feel the need to burn anyone at the stake to purge them of their "evil".
    Who's "suddenly disillusioned"? This has been going on for more than a decade. Rider after rider has been busted and/or come clean, including every rider your a-hole hero beat or teamed with. If you don't think he's a total a-hole you are the one who is terminally naive and uninformed. As opposed to class acts and admitted dopers George Hincapie and David Millar

    Cadel Evans whom you might have heard of, as former WC mtb champ and TdF winner, was/is a top pro and reputed to be clean

    http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/cycl...-1226495552945

    You want a hero, try a good guy, eh?





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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Well first of all, I don't think that the doping with performance enhancing drugs of that period necessarily caused people to "risk their own health".
    Use the google why don't you, and see what you can find to refute that fallacy.

    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009...sleep.html?m=1

    http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/epo.shtml




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  45. #145
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    The thing that has me astounded is that in the poll above there are 24 yes 24 people that think Lance never doped, they must also me members of the 'flat earth cult'
    But they do say that one in every ten people are insane so the poll above is right on the money....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's L'axeman View Post
    The thing that has me astounded is that in the poll above there are 24 yes 24 people that think Lance never doped, they must also me members of the 'flat earth cult'
    But they do say that one in every ten people are insane so the poll above is right on the money....
    You might also call them " low information voters", which is why Presidential elections are so scary.




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  47. #147
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    Good poll....

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Use the google why don't you, and see what you can find to refute that fallacy.

    The Science of Sport: Cyclist dies in sleep

    Pete Pfitzinger - Lab Reports - EPO: illegal, effective, and deadly




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    The first link is to a story about a pro cyclist dying in his sleep but there's no reason there as to why it happened then it meanders off into some anecdotes about EPO use, vaguely trying to link the two w/o any evidence. The second link is to a story on the dangers of EPO. Are you saying that performance enhancing drugs can hurt you? Yes they can but any athlete using so much EPO that it endangered their life either had a no doctor supervising its use or an incompetent doctor doing so treating an incompetent patient.

    Is Lance Armstrong dead, blind, crippled or crazy today as a result of using PE drugs? I don't think so. In fact he successfully used EPO under a doctor's care as a vital life giving therapy during his battle with cancer. Tons of people die from using too much alcohol every year but we still aren't afraid to have a drink or two now and again. You can die from drinking too much water too but it's pretty rare. The difference between help and harm with any substance is always in the dose. Some of the anti-PE drug tales are so very reminiscent of the cheesy scare tactics evident in stuff like Reefer Madness.

    I don't condone or use PEDs but for gawds-sake, use a little common sense not just fear tactics. As far as Armstrong goes, the guy and a lot of others got caught for using drugs against the rules for years. His multi-million dollar a year cycling career that gave him international fame, admiration and respect is shot today. That alone should be a lesson for those tempted to do the same. Give it a rest.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Who's "suddenly disillusioned"? This has been going on for more than a decade. Rider after rider has been busted and/or come clean, including every rider your a-hole hero beat or teamed with. If you don't think he's a total a-hole you are the one who is terminally naive and uninformed. As opposed to class acts and admitted dopers George Hincapie and David Millar

    Cadel Evans whom you might have heard of, as former WC mtb champ and TdF winner, was/is a top pro and reputed to be clean

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    I have no idea if he was clean or not. But he was tested numerous times, and passed them all.

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyHustle View Post
    I have no idea if he was clean or not. But he was tested numerous times, and passed them all.
    No he did not, he failed many of them but had the money to pay off the UCI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyHustle View Post
    I have no idea if he was clean or not. But he was tested numerous times, and passed them all.
    No he didnt, it has come out that he bought his way out of it and also paid a certain doctor to write scripts to cover for his failed tests, its a myth that he passed all his tests...
    He also paid a specialist over 1million in a very short period of time to advise him on doping and beating the system....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyHustle View Post
    I have no idea if he was clean or not. But he was tested numerous times, and passed them all.
    Lance and the team practiced the 5 d's of doping

    Dope, Dodge, Dip, Dodge, Dope!
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  54. #154
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    i bought lots of dope from some cat named lance.
    If you arent bleeding, you arent riding hard enough.
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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyHustle View Post
    I have no idea if he was clean or not. But he was tested numerous times, and passed them all.
    Neither did Marion Jones.

    How might Lance have done it

    http://m.yahoo.com/w/legobpengine/ne...US&.lang=en-US

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/analysis/no-armstrong-never-tested-positive-but-how_261616




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  56. #156
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    Really surprised by so many thinking he doped but it’s OK because others did as well.

    If he doped, then he has lied, he committed crimes (perjury), stolen prize money, got people fired for telling the truth, threatened people, sued people, bullied people who wanted to cooperate with investigations, etc., etc.

    Would you want him in your sport?

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    If you try google translate here is a small list i fond on my first atempt to search for suspect dead of athletes. As you can see they were all old and drug wasn't in cause. But as you said Lance had a good doctor, he will live strong.


    Les dix morts les plus marquantes
    France-Soir a répertorié les dix décès les plus marquants de ces vingt dernières années, en raison de la popularité de leurs victimes, de leur implication dans des affaires de dopage ou de leur très jeune âge.

    José Manuel Fuente
    Mort en juillet 1996, à 50 ans, d’une maladie rénale qu’il aurait contractée, selon ses dires, en prenant des corticoïdes.

    Paul Haghedooren
    Mort en novembre 1997, à 38 ans, d’une crise cardiaque lors de son jogging. Contrôlé positif.

    Denis Zanette
    Mort en janvier 2003, à 32 ans, d’un arrêt cardiaque, après une visite chez son dentiste. Mis en examen pour dopage.

    Fabrice Salanson
    Mort en juin 2003, à 23 ans, retrouvé inanimé dans sa chambre d’hôtel. Jamais contrôlé positif.

    José-Maria Jimenez
    Mort en décembre 2003, à 32 ans, d’une crise cardiaque, après des problèmes de drogue et une dépression nerveuse.

    Marco Pantani
    Mort en février 2004, à 34 ans, d’une overdose de cocaïne. Suspendu pour dopage.

    Johan Sermon
    Mort en février 2004, à 21 ans, d’un arrêt cardiaque.

    Alessio Galletti
    Mort en juin 2005, à 37 ans, d’un arrêt cardiaque après une chute en course. Mis en examen pour un trafic de transfusions sanguines.

    Frank Vandenbroucke
    Mort en octobre 2009, à 35 ans, d’une double embolie pulmonaire et d’une attaque cardiaque durant des vacances au Sénégal. Suspendu pour dopage.

    Laurent Fignon
    Mort en août 2010, à 50 ans, d’un cancer. Il avait reconnu s’être dopé mais n’était pas sûr que sa maladie soit liée

    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The first link is to a story about a pro cyclist dying in his sleep but there's no reason there as to why it happened then it meanders off into some anecdotes about EPO use, vaguely trying to link the two w/o any evidence. The second link is to a story on the dangers of EPO. Are you saying that performance enhancing drugs can hurt you? Yes they can but any athlete using so much EPO that it endangered their life either had a no doctor supervising its use or an incompetent doctor doing so treating an incompetent patient.

    Is Lance Armstrong dead, blind, crippled or crazy today as a result of using PE drugs? I don't think so. In fact he successfully used EPO under a doctor's care as a vital life giving therapy during his battle with cancer. Tons of people die from using too much alcohol every year but we still aren't afraid to have a drink or two now and again. You can die from drinking too much water too but it's pretty rare. The difference between help and harm with any substance is always in the dose. Some of the anti-PE drug tales are so very reminiscent of the cheesy scare tactics evident in stuff like Reefer Madness.

    I don't condone or use PEDs but for gawds-sake, use a little common sense not just fear tactics. As far as Armstrong goes, the guy and a lot of others got caught for using drugs against the rules for years. His multi-million dollar a year cycling career that gave him international fame, admiration and respect is shot today. That alone should be a lesson for those tempted to do the same. Give it a rest.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    The first link is to a story about a pro cyclist dying in his sleep but there's no reason there as to why it happened then it meanders off into some anecdotes about EPO use, vaguely trying to link the two w/o any evidence. The second link is to a story on the dangers of EPO. Are you saying that performance enhancing drugs can hurt you? Yes they can but any athlete using so much EPO that it endangered their life either had a no doctor supervising its use or an incompetent doctor doing so treating an incompetent patient.

    Is Lance Armstrong dead, blind, crippled or crazy today as a result of using PE drugs? I don't think so. In fact he successfully used EPO under a doctor's care as a vital life giving therapy during his battle with cancer. Tons of people die from using too much alcohol every year but we still aren't afraid to have a drink or two now and again. You can die from drinking too much water too but it's pretty rare. The difference between help and harm with any substance is always in the dose. Some of the anti-PE drug tales are so very reminiscent of the cheesy scare tactics evident in stuff like Reefer Madness.

    I don't condone or use PEDs but for gawds-sake, use a little common sense not just fear tactics..
    The opposite of fear tactics is white washing.

    There is plenty of evidence that EPO is potentially harmful. I would think you would want the whole picture before injecting sh*t into your body.

    http://www.emaxhealth.com/8782/epo-b...rs-and-runners

    What a choice for a pro to be told by his race director and sponsors "dope and be competitive with other dopers, or you're out". As far as management is concerned, you are an animal who rides bikes and are treated as such. Don't worry, son, stick the needle in your vein. It's perfectly safe.

    Do you really think Kim Kirchen's heart attack in the 2010 Tour de Suisse had nothing to do with PED? 34 year old pro at the peak of his career. Sure.


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  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    The opposite of fear tactics is white washing.

    There is plenty of evidence that EPO is potentially harmful. I would think you would want the whole picture before injecting sh*t into your body.
    ANYTHING is "potentially harmful". Anything can be used wisely or unwisely. That was my point. Be sure to tell the cancers patients surviving and healing with the help of EPO that they're "injecting sh*t" into their bodies.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    ANYTHING is "potentially harmful". Anything can be used wisely or unwisely. That was my point. Be sure to tell the cancers patients surviving and healing with the help of EPO that they're "injecting sh*t" into their bodies.
    Are you dense or just play one on MTBR? CAncer patients undergoing chemo are receiving EPO as a medicine they need to replace red blood cells lost during chemo. A healthy cyclist using EPO to boost normal hematocrit to 50% is abusing the drug to cheat and risks health issues. You don't agree go ahead and use it and spank all the other Cat 4's. knock yourself out. I don't care if you win races or stroke out.


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  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Are you dense or just play one on MTBR? CAncer patients undergoing chemo are receiving EPO as a medicine they need to replace red blood cells lost during chemo. A healthy cyclist using EPO to boost normal hematocrit to 50% is abusing the drug to cheat and risks health issues. You don't agree go ahead and use it and spank all the other Cat 4's. knock yourself out. I don't care if you win races or stroke out.


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    Apparently I must be dense because now you seem to be accusing me of abusing EPO as a CAT-4 racer or something and that can't be true, in fact it would actually be libelous. I've never been a CAT-Anything racer!

    Did I argue somewhere that using EPO to the point of endangering health is somehow a good or admirable thing? My point that you must have missed, is that EPO is neutral it's not evil, it's just a substance that can be used or misused like any other. I don't think you're going to find anyone to argue about whether it was against the rules or not because it definitely was. The idea that any use of it is automatically bad and unhealthy is just kind of simplistic, juvenile and an act of demonizing it. Cancer patients that have benefited from it are living proof of that.
    Last edited by tl1; 10-17-2012 at 01:16 PM.

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by tl1 View Post
    Apparently I must be dense because now you seem to be accusing me of abusing EPO as a CAT-4 racer or something and that can't be true, in fact it would actually be libelous. I've never been a CAT-Anything racer!

    Did I argue somewhere that using EPO to the point of endangering health is somehow a good or admirable thing? My point that you must have missed, is that EPO is neutral it's not evil, it's just a substance that can be used or misused like any other. I don't think you're going to find anyone to argue about whether it was against the rules or not because it definitely was. The idea that any use of it is automatically bad and unhealthy is just kind of simplistic, juvenile and an act of demonizing it. Cancer patients that have benefited from it are living proof of that.
    Sorry for insult. My bad and not necessary. It's just hard for me to understand where you're coming from.

    You can't compare legitimate medicinal use of a drug to cheating in athletics. EPO is not neutral; it is a powerful drug that can be used and abused. Any use other than medicinal treatment of an abnormal condition is abuse per se. Denial that abuse is potentially harmful is just plain false. That Lance and his cohorts appear none worse for wear today and that harmful effects are not common proves nothing- even assuming the truth of that statement. artificially boosting hematocrit to 50% is risky business. How risky is for each abuser to decide for him or herself, same as with HGH, testosterone, steroids and other PED's. That some riders were pressured into becoming EPO junkies against their better judgement, and that other riders rode clean and got pummeled by cheaters, just plain sucks. The sooner cycling comes clean, the better. The sponsors, team directors and riders must be on the same page. The UCI should be dissolved and replaced by another agency with credible members. It is not a pipe dream, the pendulum is swinging in that direction
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  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJJ View Post
    If he doped, then he has lied, he committed crimes (perjury), stolen prize money, got people fired for telling the truth,threatened people, sued people, bullied people who wanted to cooperate with investigations, etc., etc.
    ??? From a logic point of view, does the stuff not in bold imply the stuff in bold?

    Not saying he did or didn't do all those things .... just trying to sort out the implications in this very public lynching.

  64. #164
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    This thread is getting ridiculously long so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but he is no longer the head of Livestrong and Nike dropped him today and that is saying a lot. The storm is about to hit.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

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    Trek dropped him today too.

    The issue is black and white to me. The truth is the truth.

  66. #166
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    Doping was widespread in cycling before Lance was even born.
    Kund Jensen died in competition in 1960 of anphetamines.
    Tom Simpson dropped dead in the 1967 Tour de France. Drugs.
    Lance arrived to be the best at it, and beat everybody. He succeeded.

    Good time for Nike to suddenly get some morals. How are those sweat shops doing?

  67. #167
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    Hi,
    sad news : LA has just been prooven guilty and all his victories are cancelled by UCI, this after hearing the results of USADA enquiries.
    No news from ASO and Tour Org, next public appointment for the Tour is next wednesday for unveiling the 2013 full race details, more to come...
    News released at 13h01 CET.

  68. #168
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    Cha-ching!!



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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlopeRiderSC View Post
    LA has just been prooven guilty
    Incorrect, there has never been a court case or judgement. He is just been presumed guilty based on decision not to fight.

    Even though he didn't respond to USADA, he could still decide to appeal the UCI decision. Seems unlikely though.

    The sh1t thing is that unless lance actually admits it, or fights it and loses in court. There will never be closure on this whole thing...

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsey24 View Post
    Incorrect, there has never been a court case or judgement. He is just been presumed guilty based on decision not to fight.

    Even though he didn't respond to USADA, he could still decide to appeal the UCI decision. Seems unlikely though.

    The sh1t thing is that unless lance actually admits it, or fights it and loses in court. There will never be closure on this whole thing...
    LOL, You sound like his lawyer or lance himself, he has been proven guilty to any sensible person beyond any shadow of a doubt.
    He will never fight it, he has no leg to stand on, his no show to fight it IS A FULL ADMISSION OF GUILT, the evidence is unfightable n mountainous.

    Any person who thinks he is telling the truth would also believe the earth is still flat....
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    Here is my disclaimer: This is only my opinion.

    I do think Lance cheated. Even though I believe he cheated what he still did was amazing. Lets stick to the facts. This man had cancer, overcame it , and still became a pro cyclist. That would have been enough for me to admire anyone. If he would've won 1 race I would have been shocked, but this guy won the TDF 7 times. If you look at that era there was a doping epidemic. How could a guy beat a field of dopers if he didn't dope? Did he just train that much better? I would like to believe that, but I don't. If he did or didn't dope what he did on the bike was extraordinary.

    I admire the local guy who rides with me that had cancer.
    Missed a few of his qualities mentioned in the now widely accepted USADA report, like...
    Lying, cheating, bullying, threatening people and their families, perjury, encouraging others to dope, organizing the distribution of drugs, getting people fired from their jobs for telling the truth, ........

    Yea, a guy to be admired.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlopeRiderSC View Post
    Hi,
    sad news : LA has just been prooven guilty and all his victories are cancelled by UCI, this after hearing the results of USADA enquiries.
    No news from ASO and Tour Org, next public appointment for the Tour is next wednesday for unveiling the 2013 full race details, more to come...
    News released at 13h01 CET.
    Correction: GOOD NEWS! The scumball is toast, and these stupid threads will stop for good
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  73. #173
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    So how long do we have to wait to see who won the 7 tours he had?
    With all the other dopers behind him it will probably take months to sort out.
    You might as well just say the tour was canceled for those 7 years.
    Why not just take the whole tour, put it in a burlap bag and just toss it over the bridge.


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  74. #174
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    Upset

    The powers that be now make it so as if nobody sat on a bike for 3 weeks and rode their butts off. The titles won't go to the next in line since everybody doped. The TDF and UCI can't find anyone who cycled in all those races that was clean. Did I just waste all that time watching the TDF???
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  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsey24 View Post
    The sh1t thing is that unless lance actually admits it, or fights it and loses in court. There will never be closure on this whole thing...
    Not sure about that. I'm getting pretty close to a feeling of closure.

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    Syringe Guy-Tour of California '09

    Guess we know which way this guy would vote.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Do you believe Lance Armstrong is clean?-aaaaa.jpg  

    Do you believe Lance Armstrong is clean?-aaaaaa.jpg  

    Do you believe Lance Armstrong is clean?-aaaaaaa.jpg  

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  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Not sure about that. I'm getting pretty close to a feeling of closure.
    Amnesty and truth and reconciliation might lead to closure

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...-answer_262269


    http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...ficient_262255



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  78. #178
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    Ya, except then the UCI tool that ball and started running with it with public statements explaining that they should be administering the proceedings of any T & R initiatives, if they happen.

    McQuaid and Co. just don't get it. Either that or they figure they can just continue shouting nonsense over top of everyone else's voices. They shouldn't even have a platform to speak from at this point.

  79. #179
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    links aren't working....

    Eh eventually the truth will come out, but unfortunately it will always be tainted by the what-ifs and the possibles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    It does not matter what one believes, what matters is actual Evidence, Belief is in something you are not certain of. So from the lack of Evidence I KNOW Lance is Innocent.
    I agree. Prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ('cause there are tons of reasonable doubt in my eye ) and then I'll believe he doped, until then, to me he's the best tour rider, ever.

    Just One Man's Opinion.

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    I don’t think he was "clean".

    BUT I look at it like this:

    Everyone from every country was doping to some extent. So in that regard none of them are any better than any other pro cyclist at the time. Now, if I take every drug that lance took in the same exact amounts that he did, I would still never be able to come close to his level of performance. There is still the fact that he is an amazing athlete under all those drugs. Performance enhancing drugs enhance an athlete they don’t make a world class athlete out of anyone. If everyone at the time was 100% clean I believe he would have won the exact same way that he won originally.
    Now all that being said… I think he is a total ******-bag for the way he acted and continued his career after he became famous. There is no excuse for bribery and intimidation in a world-class sport. I’d bet the same thing was going on in other countries but in our American society we love nothing more than to tear down our idols… A little blood in the water and everyone jumps on the lynching wagon.
    Lance was a great athlete but a crappy competitor and teammate. Fame changes people, who’s to say that any of us wouldn’t have acted the same way under all of the stress and pressures to live up to your own reputation? That’s not an excuse for his behavior but I can understand. NOT condone, but I can understand.
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  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    I agree. Prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ('cause there are tons of reasonable doubt in my eye ) and then I'll believe he doped, until then, to me he's the best tour rider, ever.

    Just One Man's Opinion.

    "It ain't what you know, but want you can prove in the court of law" Denzel Washington (Training Day)

    PS. I know I will get some negative reps because of my beliefs, but I can care less. If you negative rep me, be a man and leave your name.

    Al
    Believe what you want. Meanwhile, the record books have already been rewritten, Trek, Nike, Oakley have already dumped him, he's looking at numerous lawsuits to recover money and bonuses paid to him under false pretenses, and he's burned so many bridges in his life, he is left friendless all by himself. Except for a few pathetic jock sniffing morons like you who will insist the earth is flat while real life passes them by.

    P.S. no reason to neg rep the mentally challenged. That's just wrong.


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  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methodical View Post
    I agree. Prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ('cause there are tons of reasonable doubt in my eye ) and then I'll believe he doped, until then, to me he's the best tour rider, ever.

    Just One Man's Opinion.

    "It ain't what you know, but want you can prove in the court of law" Denzel Washington (Training Day)

    PS. I know I will get some negative reps because of my beliefs, but I can care less. If you negative rep me, be a man and leave your name.

    Al
    Well ive always been intrigued who the 10% of people in the poll in the top of the page were that thinks that he never doped.
    Mate if anybody calls you from Nigeria telling you that youve won the Nigerian national lottery and to send them money so they can process it and send you the winnings, please dont send them the money, its a scam....
    P.S just on the quiet, the sky's not falling in either.....
    And just on the quiet again, your not in one of those cults that think the worlds going to end tomorrow are you?
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  84. #184
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    Everyone doped and everyone is still doping...if you think otherwise, you must be on dope

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  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41ants View Post
    Everyone doped and everyone is still doping...if you think otherwise, you must be on dope

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    Bollocks. Even if it's true, so what? The "everyone's doing it" argument is shite. It's only ever heard from people who are doing something wrong and who know it.

    Nobody ever helps out the homeless because "everyone's doing it". Nobody volunteers for unpaid charity work because "everyone's doing it". It's the last, desperate defence of liars, cheats, thieves and other general purpose scumbags.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FNCnca View Post
    10, 15 years ago, who didn't dope?
    the losers that's who

  87. #187
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    Indurain believes Lance is clean

    Indurain believes in Armstrong's innocence | Comcast

    or I should say "innocent"

  88. #188
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    I'm pretty bummed about the whole thing.

    At first, I really thought that this was just a good guy who happened to be a spectacular athlete getting taken down by a power-hungry bureaucrat. But there's just no way that the USADA convinced EVERYONE to lie. I read some of the deposition transcripts that have been published. There's too much detail given for me to believe that the story's just a fabrication by a bunch of guys trying to save their own careers.

    I think its pretty clear that LA's amazing record was the result of a doping program. I think it sucks because I was pretty proud of the guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Believe what you want. Meanwhile, the record books have already been rewritten, Trek, Nike, Oakley have already dumped him, he's looking at numerous lawsuits to recover money and bonuses paid to him under false pretenses, and he's burned so many bridges in his life, he is left friendless all by himself. Except for a few pathetic jock sniffing morons like you who will insist the earth is flat while real life passes them by.

    P.S. no reason to neg rep the mentally challenged. That's just wrong.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Well ive always been intrigued who the 10% of people in the poll in the top of the page were that thinks that he never doped.
    Mate if anybody calls you from Nigeria telling you that youve won the Nigerian national lottery and to send them money so they can process it and send you the winnings, please dont send them the money, its a scam....
    P.S just on the quiet, the sky's not falling in either.....
    And just on the quiet again, your not in one of those cults that think the worlds going to end tomorrow are you?
    I'm the one doing the calling Whew, whew, whew, whew

  90. #190
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    8 pages of replies no one will see this one ! lol

    Anyway, many of the posts here say "that was then, this is now." However, here's thing. Lance participated in and won, the Leadville 100 in 2009. In 2010, Leipheimer won (also confessed doper, not in the news much). Leipheimer even broke the record for the race. These guys continue to compete. Not that I will ever be even close to being in the same race as someone like them, but the thought will forever be in the back of someone's mind: This guy doped to get an advantage, of which he's probably still reaping the benefits of physically. So all the other competitors are left to sucking up trail dust.

    I like Lance, I admire his courage. I mean, in this video Lance Armstrong's Offroad Short Cut in the Tour De France - YouTube he takes that skinny tire bike down hill when others behind him braked hard to avoid it. He said hell with it, I'm going. So sure, doping gives you some upgrades, but some of it is just pure balls. In the Leadville 100 he road a flat tire for the last few miles of the race. And still won.

    It's just sad that the status quo at the time dictated that you either dope or come in last.

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJJ View Post
    Missed a few of his qualities mentioned in the now widely accepted USADA report, like...
    Lying, cheating, bullying, threatening people and their families, perjury, encouraging others to dope, organizing the distribution of drugs, getting people fired from their jobs for telling the truth, ........

    Yea, a guy to be admired.
    wow, well, maybe i take some of my admiration back too

  92. #192
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    <----- Has tried real hard to care less, but it is not possible.


    Is he the victim of being made "an example"? Maybe. I don't know. There are two things I know about Lance Armstrong. He is an incredible athlete, regardless of doping. And he is a giant jackass and totally full of himself.

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    WTF?
    He has to come clean like all his teammates before he can salvage anything he has left.
    The way things are going he will be a broken penniless old man before he's sixty.
    "Be not afraid of going slowly but only of standing still." - Chinese Proverb

  94. #194
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    On a related note....

    Just saw this post from my teammate:

    "I went to see the Levi Leipheimer Documentary tonight. Showed up, no sound, choppy image, movie cancelled. First he admits and gets sacked by OPQS, now the omerta's claiming his movie. Dang."

    Sometimes, I question the value of my content.

  95. #195
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    My take on this is that Tygart is an anti-doping zealot (or a shameless self-promoter out to make a name for himself) who believes that cycling is a dirty sport. He wants to destroy it in order to save it. Thus, his attack on the biggest fish (Armstrong) and the integrity of the UCI.
    The problem is that this is ancient history in sporting and doping terms and the sport seems to be doing much better these days. Unfortunately, I predict that as a result, the exodus of sponsors will continue and the sport will suffer greatly, assuming it survives.

  96. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleedin' Bill View Post
    My take on this is that Tygart is an anti-doping zealot (or a shameless self-promoter out to make a name for himself) who believes that cycling is a dirty sport. He wants to destroy it in order to save it. Thus, his attack on the biggest fish (Armstrong) and the integrity of the UCI.
    The problem is that this is ancient history in sporting and doping terms and the sport seems to be doing much better these days. Unfortunately, I predict that as a result, the exodus of sponsors will continue and the sport will suffer greatly, assuming it survives.
    How's the weather on your planet?



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  97. #197
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    nope...dirty as my first playboy

  98. #198
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    I firmly and wholeheartedly believe that I neither gain anything from Lance's efforts whether doped or not,nor do I gain anything other than several hours entertainment from the tour or it's sponsors,as I am not influenced either one way or the other on my purchases by "what the po's ride/say/think",I'm much more mtn biker than roadie (even my road bike has skinny little knobbie 38mm tires),and the is M....tbr,not a roadie site to begin with....

    That siad,I admire Lance's performances whether doped or not,it's more than I could do (doped or not),but the reality is,it's non of my business
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  99. #199
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    a very sad state of affairs

    Too many are still in denial. There can no longer be any question of what happened in that era. I too was drawn into the excitement of the Lance Armstrong years. But as one after another a rider left or was kicked off his teams only to be caught later for doping...my doubts grew about how clean LA was. Something strange was going on. It could be years before we know the ultimate truth. Perhaps long after I'm dead (pity). Wait for his memoirs...about 20+ plus years from now. Then again, just might leave us guessing.

    edit

    this from my morning newspaper

    The apology Lance Armstrong will never give | Sports | National Post

    hope it is available for some time to come
    if Lance ever did something like this he would get his life back
    but he will still have to face the piper for playing off key
    Last edited by FireDog46; 10-24-2012 at 03:33 PM.
    "Be not afraid of going slowly but only of standing still." - Chinese Proverb

  100. #200
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    I heard the other day that companies/endorsements are trying to sue LA and the government may get involved as well.

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