• 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Compromise: Mechs and Hydros
    Hi guys,
    I thought of something today. this isn't a fully developed idea, just a thought.

    I've noticed that people who are somewhat new to MTBing (myself included) are somewhat afraid of hydraulic brakes. The prefer mechs because they are familiar with cables, and they can use pliers and an Allen wrench to set them up. It's easy to see how they work. Unlike hydros, which are totally sealed off and are somewhat different(didn't say difficult) to adjust.

    What if there was a mechanical caliper that used hydraulics?

    As in, there would be a pivot arm, just like a mech, and that would push in a master piston, which pressurized 2 pistons, each one behind a different pad.That way, one would be able to use cables, but still have the two way pad movement. I realize that a major advantage of hydros is the silkiness of the lever, and this brake obviously doesn't achieve that. Also, this design sacrifices weight, because it has the moving parts of a Mech and the chamber/pistons of a hydro. But I think that some people would be willing to sacrifice a few grams for that little advantage.
    Really, all this is a mech brake that uses hydraulics to push pads onto the rotor from both sides. What do you say? Is it worth it?

    BTW: You saw it here first.:p
  • 10-18-2012
    AZ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post

    What if there was a mechanical caliper that used hydraulics?




    It would be an unnecessary complication that would cost and weigh too much.
  • 10-18-2012
    NateHawk
    I'm not sure about that. All that extra mechanical complexity transforming hydraulic pressure to mechanical energy which rotates the mechanical pistons would just make the calipers tanks. And plain old mechanical calipers are heavy as it is.

    You are right, though, about hydros being unfamiliar and a source of fear. That's just something folks have to get over if they want to use them. If not, they can use mechs.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Let me put it this way. Instead of putting the plunger in the levers, let's put them on the calipers. Then to use the plunger, you use a cable which is attached to a lever control. I don't think it would add TOO much weight or complication, would it?
  • 10-18-2012
    StiHacka
    To me it sounds like you have just invented a design that combines the worst of both solutions. They would likely need bleeding anyway, you will have to deal with all the usual cable/housing dirt&wear&tear issues, you will have quite nasty cooling issues IMHO, the weight of your brakes is going to be sky high, etc.

    Btw. I am not quite sure whay you mean by "different" adjusting of hydors. Mechs are WAY more difficult to set up, hydros are "bleed and forget", self-adjusting along the way. The only problem with bleeding is that it can be messy and requires you to act fast. With a little bit of practice, it is not a big deal at all.
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    cable actuated hydraulic calipers? welcome to 1998...
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    cable actuated hydraulic calipers? welcome to 1998...

    Really? Links pls.(Has this been tried?)
    You guys are right. It was just a thought.
  • 10-18-2012
    Joules
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Let me put it this way. Instead of putting the plunger in the levers, let's put them on the calipers. Then to use the plunger, you use a cable which is attached to a lever control. I don't think it would add TOO much weight or complication, would it?

    that was how they did it in 1994. Was glad to see that one disappear.

    Both those ideas seem to combine the worst of both mech and hydraulic brakes. I get that cables are more familiar, but honestly, does that stop you from using hydraulic brakes on your car?
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    hayes made a set in the late 90's that they only produced for a couple years. there were most likely others as well...
  • 10-18-2012
    Yogii
    Quote:

    cable actuated hydraulic calipers? welcome to 1998
    Diamond "safety" bike frame, welcome 1910.
    Rear derailleur, welcome 1923.

    So what.......
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Hmm... So there's no way to get two pad movement on mechs? Does that even matter at all?
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yogii View Post
    ...So what...

    some designs are scrapped for a reason...
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Hayes cable operated hydraulic disc brakes? | Retrobike found this. Guess I was too late :p
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    i almost linked you to that thread...
  • 10-18-2012
    roadie scum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yogii View Post
    Diamond "safety" bike frame, welcome 1910.
    Rear derailleur, welcome 1923.

    So what.......





    Binet-Simon test in 1905.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    But seriously, is there any advantage to having both pads move rather than having one "fixed" pad and one that presses? I know for a fact that it would make it easier to center a caliper and it would allow the rotor to not bend when braking. Would the latter cause any problems?
  • 10-18-2012
    Thor29
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Hmm... So there's no way to get two pad movement on mechs? Does that even matter at all?

    IRD has (had?) a mechanical disc brake where both pads move. I never heard much about it and it seems to have gone away.

    I think it does matter, but not that much as long as you adjust your non moving pad to be as close to the rotor as possible.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    I'm sure it matters, or else nobody would have bothered to make hydros have both dynamic pads. They too would be running with one fixed pad.
  • 10-18-2012
    StiHacka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I'm sure it matters, or else nobody would have bothered to make hydros have both dynamic pads. They too would be running with one fixed pads.

    Hydros are virtually maintenance and setup free. Pad wear is compensated with a gradual piston extension. You cannot achieve that with a fixed pad.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    "Pad wear is compensated with a gradual piston extension. You cannot achieve that with a fixed pad."
    Is that it? Automatic pad wear compensation is the only reason why hydros have both dynamic pads?
    That would mean there is absolutely NO REASON for mechs to have that feature. So, my idea/thought has no purpose. Oh well.
  • 10-18-2012
    fatcat
    I don't understand what you mean by "fear" of hydraulic brakes? Perhaps grabbing or clutching
    the levers so that you fly off the saddle? To me its like "fear" of power brakes on a vehicle.
    You learn to use it. Sure stomping on your car brakes will send you into the windshield but
    who does that? I am a fan of hydraulic brakes. Wait til electronic derailleurs start getting more
    popular. :)
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Well, if anybody's interested, Thor29 was right. Dual Banger Disc Brake

    Interloc Dual Banger Mechanical Disc Brake Disc Brake System Reviews

    Apparently, its power and modulation rival that of the BB7 and some hydros, which is saying something. But it isn't well designed and has lots of flaws. And at $99 per wheel, you're better off with Deore's. That's what I got from the reviews. What do you say? To dual piston or not to dual piston?
  • 10-18-2012
    Bill in Houston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Hydros are virtually maintenance and setup free.

    Maybe, but when you see a post titled "Can't get my brakes to work right, about to quit", you have a pretty good idea which type they are using...
  • 10-18-2012
    Bill in Houston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    But seriously, is there any advantage to having both pads move rather than having one "fixed" pad and one that presses? I know for a fact that it would make it easier to center a caliper and it would allow the rotor to not bend when braking. Would the latter cause any problems?

    mechanicals could be build with slider pins, like the one-sided hydraulic brakes on most everyones car. prolly not worth the wieght and complication?
  • 10-18-2012
    StiHacka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bill in Houston View Post
    Maybe, but when you see a post titled "Can't get my brakes to work right, about to quit", you have a pretty good idea which type they are using...

    I suspect in 99%, they have troubles bleeding them.