• 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Compromise: Mechs and Hydros
    Hi guys,
    I thought of something today. this isn't a fully developed idea, just a thought.

    I've noticed that people who are somewhat new to MTBing (myself included) are somewhat afraid of hydraulic brakes. The prefer mechs because they are familiar with cables, and they can use pliers and an Allen wrench to set them up. It's easy to see how they work. Unlike hydros, which are totally sealed off and are somewhat different(didn't say difficult) to adjust.

    What if there was a mechanical caliper that used hydraulics?

    As in, there would be a pivot arm, just like a mech, and that would push in a master piston, which pressurized 2 pistons, each one behind a different pad.That way, one would be able to use cables, but still have the two way pad movement. I realize that a major advantage of hydros is the silkiness of the lever, and this brake obviously doesn't achieve that. Also, this design sacrifices weight, because it has the moving parts of a Mech and the chamber/pistons of a hydro. But I think that some people would be willing to sacrifice a few grams for that little advantage.
    Really, all this is a mech brake that uses hydraulics to push pads onto the rotor from both sides. What do you say? Is it worth it?

    BTW: You saw it here first.:p
  • 10-18-2012
    AZ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post

    What if there was a mechanical caliper that used hydraulics?




    It would be an unnecessary complication that would cost and weigh too much.
  • 10-18-2012
    Harold
    I'm not sure about that. All that extra mechanical complexity transforming hydraulic pressure to mechanical energy which rotates the mechanical pistons would just make the calipers tanks. And plain old mechanical calipers are heavy as it is.

    You are right, though, about hydros being unfamiliar and a source of fear. That's just something folks have to get over if they want to use them. If not, they can use mechs.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Let me put it this way. Instead of putting the plunger in the levers, let's put them on the calipers. Then to use the plunger, you use a cable which is attached to a lever control. I don't think it would add TOO much weight or complication, would it?
  • 10-18-2012
    StiHacka
    To me it sounds like you have just invented a design that combines the worst of both solutions. They would likely need bleeding anyway, you will have to deal with all the usual cable/housing dirt&wear&tear issues, you will have quite nasty cooling issues IMHO, the weight of your brakes is going to be sky high, etc.

    Btw. I am not quite sure whay you mean by "different" adjusting of hydors. Mechs are WAY more difficult to set up, hydros are "bleed and forget", self-adjusting along the way. The only problem with bleeding is that it can be messy and requires you to act fast. With a little bit of practice, it is not a big deal at all.
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    cable actuated hydraulic calipers? welcome to 1998...
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by .WestCoastHucker. View Post
    cable actuated hydraulic calipers? welcome to 1998...

    Really? Links pls.(Has this been tried?)
    You guys are right. It was just a thought.
  • 10-18-2012
    Joules
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Let me put it this way. Instead of putting the plunger in the levers, let's put them on the calipers. Then to use the plunger, you use a cable which is attached to a lever control. I don't think it would add TOO much weight or complication, would it?

    that was how they did it in 1994. Was glad to see that one disappear.

    Both those ideas seem to combine the worst of both mech and hydraulic brakes. I get that cables are more familiar, but honestly, does that stop you from using hydraulic brakes on your car?
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    hayes made a set in the late 90's that they only produced for a couple years. there were most likely others as well...
  • 10-18-2012
    Yogii
    Quote:

    cable actuated hydraulic calipers? welcome to 1998
    Diamond "safety" bike frame, welcome 1910.
    Rear derailleur, welcome 1923.

    So what.......
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Hmm... So there's no way to get two pad movement on mechs? Does that even matter at all?
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yogii View Post
    ...So what...

    some designs are scrapped for a reason...
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Hayes cable operated hydraulic disc brakes? | Retrobike found this. Guess I was too late :p
  • 10-18-2012
    .WestCoastHucker.
    i almost linked you to that thread...
  • 10-18-2012
    roadie scum
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Yogii View Post
    Diamond "safety" bike frame, welcome 1910.
    Rear derailleur, welcome 1923.

    So what.......





    Binet-Simon test in 1905.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    But seriously, is there any advantage to having both pads move rather than having one "fixed" pad and one that presses? I know for a fact that it would make it easier to center a caliper and it would allow the rotor to not bend when braking. Would the latter cause any problems?
  • 10-18-2012
    Thor29
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Hmm... So there's no way to get two pad movement on mechs? Does that even matter at all?

    IRD has (had?) a mechanical disc brake where both pads move. I never heard much about it and it seems to have gone away.

    I think it does matter, but not that much as long as you adjust your non moving pad to be as close to the rotor as possible.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    I'm sure it matters, or else nobody would have bothered to make hydros have both dynamic pads. They too would be running with one fixed pad.
  • 10-18-2012
    StiHacka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I'm sure it matters, or else nobody would have bothered to make hydros have both dynamic pads. They too would be running with one fixed pads.

    Hydros are virtually maintenance and setup free. Pad wear is compensated with a gradual piston extension. You cannot achieve that with a fixed pad.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    "Pad wear is compensated with a gradual piston extension. You cannot achieve that with a fixed pad."
    Is that it? Automatic pad wear compensation is the only reason why hydros have both dynamic pads?
    That would mean there is absolutely NO REASON for mechs to have that feature. So, my idea/thought has no purpose. Oh well.
  • 10-18-2012
    fatcat
    I don't understand what you mean by "fear" of hydraulic brakes? Perhaps grabbing or clutching
    the levers so that you fly off the saddle? To me its like "fear" of power brakes on a vehicle.
    You learn to use it. Sure stomping on your car brakes will send you into the windshield but
    who does that? I am a fan of hydraulic brakes. Wait til electronic derailleurs start getting more
    popular. :)
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Well, if anybody's interested, Thor29 was right. Dual Banger Disc Brake

    Interloc Dual Banger Mechanical Disc Brake Disc Brake System Reviews

    Apparently, its power and modulation rival that of the BB7 and some hydros, which is saying something. But it isn't well designed and has lots of flaws. And at $99 per wheel, you're better off with Deore's. That's what I got from the reviews. What do you say? To dual piston or not to dual piston?
  • 10-18-2012
    Bill in Houston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    Hydros are virtually maintenance and setup free.

    Maybe, but when you see a post titled "Can't get my brakes to work right, about to quit", you have a pretty good idea which type they are using...
  • 10-18-2012
    Bill in Houston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    But seriously, is there any advantage to having both pads move rather than having one "fixed" pad and one that presses? I know for a fact that it would make it easier to center a caliper and it would allow the rotor to not bend when braking. Would the latter cause any problems?

    mechanicals could be build with slider pins, like the one-sided hydraulic brakes on most everyones car. prolly not worth the wieght and complication?
  • 10-18-2012
    StiHacka
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bill in Houston View Post
    Maybe, but when you see a post titled "Can't get my brakes to work right, about to quit", you have a pretty good idea which type they are using...

    I suspect in 99%, they have troubles bleeding them.
  • 10-18-2012
    Brewtality
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fatcat View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by "fear" of hydraulic brakes?


    I think it has more do with not understanding how hydraulic brakes work. Cable operated brakes are easy to understand. You pull a cable at the lever and it actuated the pads at the caliper. You can see it working. It's easy to figure out. Uneducated garage mechanics can work on them without special tools or knowledge.
    Furthermore, they can be repaired on the trail if needed. Break a hydro line 30 miles from the trail head and you are riding back with no brakes. Break a cable and its a five minute fix.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-18-2012
    Bill in Houston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    I suspect in 99%, they have troubles bleeding them.

    mmm hmmm, i suspect you are 100% correct.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fatcat View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by "fear" of hydraulic brakes? Perhaps grabbing or clutching
    the levers so that you fly off the saddle? To me its like "fear" of power brakes on a vehicle.
    You learn to use it. Sure stomping on your car brakes will send you into the windshield but
    who does that? I am a fan of hydraulic brakes. Wait til electronic derailleurs start getting more
    popular. :)

    People are, have been, and will always be afraid of the unknown. Beginners are more familiar w/ cables ON A BIKE and can easily see how they work. Hydros are mysterious, black magic to them and therefore, scary. Maybe not to you. But if something goes wrong people want to be able to tell right off the bat what it is. And they want to be able to fix it right off the bat. Seals, fluid, kits, nah. How about an Allen wrench and pliers?
    Electronic derailers sound fun. But they lack the "get on and ride"-ability. You have to charge the batteries. Of course, for pros, the zero effort shifting makes sense.
  • 10-18-2012
    Finch Platte
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by StiHacka View Post
    I suspect in 99%, they have troubles bleeding them.

    And the other 23% are contaminated rotors/pads.
  • 10-18-2012
    Finch Platte
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Break a cable and its a five minute fix.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    If you have a spare cable. I remember those days carrying a couple of them around.
  • 10-18-2012
    Harold
    Never managed to break a cable. I broke a fixing bolt on a cheap set of vees once. Spare cable would have done a lot of good. Not so many folks carry a spare set of calipers.

    I love the mention of failed hydro lines. Stop scaring the noobs. I am unaware of a single case of that happening.
  • 10-18-2012
    sauprankul
    Unless you totally wipe out, you would be hard pressed to a) break a line or b) break a cable. In which case those are probably the least of your worries.

    EDIT: Unless the hose catches on something or you haven't replaced the cable in a while. Hydro hoses should last quite a while and cable brakes should be OK if you snag 'em.
  • 10-19-2012
    Fleas
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    ...I love the mention of failed hydro lines. Stop scaring the noobs. I am unaware of a single case of that happening.

    I think this used to happen in the early days of hydraulic MTB brakes. I know a 140# guy who melted the hose off his front caliper BITD (in GA). It was not his fault - it was bad heat management in the brake design. Things are much better these days.

    The only scenario that mech's probably endure better is the tree hit on the lever. If the cable barrel adjuster snaps off, you can probably still use the brake to some degree. While a broken hydraulic fitting kills the system. Other than that, they are pretty equal for durability.

    I'm glad the OP brought this subject up. I had been pondering it as well. I really thought the cable-actuated hydraulics would work out.

    -F
  • 10-19-2012
    sauprankul
    They might, just not with today's technology. One day, someone will create a hydraulic brake that appeals to beginners. I'll be first to get it if I'm not already running Shimanos.
  • 10-19-2012
    Brewtality
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Never managed to break a cable. I broke a fixing bolt on a cheap set of vees once. Spare cable would have done a lot of good. Not so many folks carry a spare set of calipers.

    I love the mention of failed hydro lines. Stop scaring the noobs. I am unaware of a single case of that happening.

    I have seen a few hydro line failures.
    One was an improperly set up line. The rider had attempted to shorten it and did not get it properly secured.
    The others were trail damage. One wreck and one grabbed by a tree branch.

    I have also seen a broken cable. It broke at the pinch bolt at the caliper. The rider had a spare in his pack. It only took me a couple minutes to replace.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • 10-19-2012
    Harold
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    I have seen a few hydro line failures.
    One was an improperly set up line. The rider had attempted to shorten it and did not get it properly secured.
    The others were trail damage. One wreck and one grabbed by a tree branch.

    I have also seen a broken cable. It broke at the pinch bolt at the caliper. The rider had a spare in his pack. It only took me a couple minutes to replace.

    I have seen the pinch bolt cable failure before, but only in the shop. When I've seen it, it came from too many cable adjustments weakening the cable at the pinch bolt.

    Interesting about the hydro line failures. I wouldn't count the improperly set up line. Unskilled mechanics screw up all sorts of parts on their bikes and I wouldn't single out hydro brakes for that. Curious what kind of riding was being done in the other cases. Seems you'd have to be hauling serious a$$ to pull a hydro line out of the fittings by snagging a tree branch. I'd hate to see what the rider looked like. And in a crash, I suppose anything can happen. If the h-bars whipped around, I suppose a pulled hydro line could happen.

    I've been on hydros for 9 years, though, and have been riding with folks using them for a little longer than that (10 or so, I think) and have yet to witness a failure on the trail. Same with cable failures, except that amount of time extends a little bit longer to about 13yrs. I have never witnessed a cable failure (brake or drivetrain) on the trail.

    Lots of drivetrain problems, though. I've personally snapped a few chains, mangled a few derailleurs, bent chainrings and cassette cogs. Sometimes you gotta walk out, or improvise something and limp out. The broken cable fixing bolt happened on the trail. It was my rear brake. I limped out with just my front brake that day. Mangled derailleurs/hangers, bend it the best I can, set the limit screws and SS it.

    I suppose if you REALLY wanted to, you could also carry spares to repair a hydro line failure, if you were far enough out there. A spare length of line, a syringe, and spare fluid. A brake that uses mineral oil would be less toxic to do a trailside bleed. It wouldn't be a perfect bleed, but it'd get you at least a partially functional brake. Not as light as carrying a spare cable, but it'd work.
  • 10-19-2012
    shiggy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Let me put it this way. Instead of putting the plunger in the levers, let's put them on the calipers. Then to use the plunger, you use a cable which is attached to a lever control. I don't think it would add TOO much weight or complication, would it?

    It has been done, when MTB disc brakes were first being developed. Lots of cable operated hydro calipers. There was too little fluid in the system which would overheat, expand and lock the brake.

    In the best case, they would tougher to setup and maintain the either full hydros or cable brakes.
  • 10-19-2012
    sauprankul
    I've heard of heat related lock ups with modern hydros too. I think it was something like "I drove with it in the back for a couple hours, and when I took it out, brakes were locked." Maybe he was using bad fluid?
  • 10-19-2012
    shiggy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    I've heard of heat related lock ups with modern hydros too. I think it was something like "I drove with it in the back for a couple hours, and when I took it out, brakes were locked." Maybe he was using bad fluid?

    Not the same thing .I have not heard of current hydro brakes locking because of fluid expansion, especially just because it was in a hot car. the temp needed is MUCH higher.

    The old brakes could lock in use WHILE descending, bringing the bike to a sudden and unwanted stop. Could need to wait 1/2 hour to cool before the wheels would move again.
  • 10-19-2012
    sauprankul
    OK lets get back on topic here. What are the advantages of a mechanical "dual Banger" design other than easy centering? Does having two dynamic pads on a mech make sense? I have yet to see a satisfactory answer.
  • 10-19-2012
    huffster
    I have hydro on 1 bike and mech on the other. I love the "set it and forget it" of hydro, plus the braking power and self-adjusting nature. I do think there is an exposure to catastrophic failure if a line breaks. Although it has never happened to me. I struggle to imagine a scenario where I wouldn't be able to trail repair mechs. They are easy to set-up but do require occasional tweaking. I don't like that you are somewhat flexing the rotor on mechs by only having 1 moving side. It would be nice to get the hydro features on a mech system, but it seems like the cost to accomplish that will put you right in the price range of some hydros. Hmmm. Interesting dialogue though.
  • 10-19-2012
    AZ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    OK lets get back on topic here. What are the advantages of a mechanical "dual Banger" design other than easy centering? Does having two dynamic pads on a mech make sense? I have yet to see a satisfactory answer.



    I have not seen any better performing mechanical brake than BB7's,
  • 10-19-2012
    sauprankul
    :groan:... I just want to know guys. Does it or does it not make sense to have two way pad movement on a mech?!

    If something like the IRD Dual Banger can rival the power and modulation of BB7 and some hydros, can we conclude that it is because of the 2 way design?
  • 10-19-2012
    sauprankul
    Srsly... would anybody like mechs to have both pads move rather than have one fixed pad? Anybody at all? Please?
  • 10-19-2012
    AZ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    :groan:... I just want to know guys. Does it or does it not make sense to have two way pad movement on a mech?!

    If something like the IRD Dual Banger can rival the power and modulation of BB7 and some hydros, can we conclude that it is because of the 2 way design?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    Srsly... would anybody like mechs to have both pads move rather than have one fixed pad? Anybody at all? Please?



    This was answered in post #2.
  • 10-19-2012
    sauprankul
    That only outlined what was wrong with the design. The feature was never addressed. So far, nobody has said anything about how having two dynamic pads increases performance.
  • 10-19-2012
    shiggy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    :groan:... I just want to know guys. Does it or does it not make sense to have two way pad movement on a mech?!

    If something like the IRD Dual Banger can rival the power and modulation of BB7 and some hydros, can we conclude that it is because of the 2 way design?

    It does not make sense to add to the complexity of a mechanical caliper when the BB7 works so well as is. I have been using the Avids on almost every bike I own since 2000 with no issues with performance.

    As always, setup is key. If the rotor is flexing more than a small fraction of a millimeter, it is not right.
  • 10-19-2012
    JohnDoH
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sauprankul View Post
    They might, just not with today's technology. One day, someone will create a hydraulic brake that appeals to beginners. I'll be first to get it if I'm not already running Shimanos.

    I thought you had Tektro Novela mechanical brakes. You changed them out for shimanos?

    sauprankul's http://forums.mtbr.com/motobecane/mo...ew-811948.html

    Seriously though, I'm not really understanding this beginner's fear of hydro's you're talking about. Personally i got some BB7's but I got them because both calipers and rotors cost me $89 dollars total. If XTR's were that price I would be all over that in a second. If you're still running the stock tektro novela's that came with your bike, I'd suggest you change them out for something better. Once you do, you won't have any urges to come up with new brake designs, cause you're stopping power will be more than enough. And if you're still running the integrated shimano ef51 brake/shifters, change those out too. I started on those too, and ran those with my bb7's for about a week before my Speed dials arrived. Those brake levers really suck. The SD7's made a world of difference. There are brakes currently on the market, both mech and hydro, that have you saying "holy shiz" everytime you pull the lever cause they are just so badass at stopping. If Tektro Novela's are all you've ever experienced, I don't think you have enough experience yet with brake systems to critique their designs.
  • 10-19-2012
    yukonjak
    I feel the benifit of the hydros just the way they are is you don't get cable stick in the water and mud, the only problem I've had is a leak between the two halves of the caliper I noticed my lever getting farther in then normal and seen the leak, but I was still able to finish the ride and had to just replace the o-ring in the caliper been great ever since. They just work good and noobs will try them and not go back to cable.
  • 10-19-2012
    bigpedaler
    Not afraid of hydros, like was said earlier, cars have had 'em forever -- the main reason I don't want 'em on my bike, I hate bleeding brakes!

    My BB7's are wonderful -- ceramic pads give me modulation AND power (one-finger braking, strong enough for OTB if I'm not careful), and I discovered that XTR CABLES can make 'em feel as smooooth as hydros! Self-adjusting pistons, meh; I have to adjust my BB7's maybe 3x/year. I'm going to replace the pads this winter, with ceramics again, and the old ones will have given me 4 years of flawless service. Jagwire cables aren't as good as XTR, but they'll do for another year.