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  1. #1
    nimble biker
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    Body position on long slack mountain bike

    How do you guys move hips back to the back of the bike on long slack bikes? The top tube is so long that the arms are too stretch out. It is impossible too move body back when riding down hill.

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    Eep opp ork ah ah.
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  3. #3
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    Do you mean like this:

    Body position on long slack mountain bike-superman-2.png

    Or like this Picard?:


    Body position on long slack mountain bike-still-6.jpg


    Either way, the miracle that is the human brain will usually help out by sending messages to our muscles to do what we need or desire them to do. Unless of course your physiology is a little different to the rest of us?
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  4. #4
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    You are physically limited, because math. To maintain proper reach, the seattube angle gets steeper, bringing the seat with it. This means you physically can't get as far back over the back wheel. Of course, your weight is more inside of the axles and more stable, so you generally don't need to make exagerated weight shifts as often. This is good for some, and takes some fun out of it for others. This is my main issue with the new geometry, and it's a deal breaker for me.

    You're obviously going to get a lot of unfounded ragging from people that don't understand geometry, like the two above, but you're correct in your experience.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    You are physically and otherwise limited, because you, Sir, are Picard...
    Fixed it. /thread

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    your weight is more inside of the axles and more stable, so you generally don't need to make exaggerated weight shifts as often.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    How do you guys move hips back to the back of the bike on long slack bikes? The top tube is so long that the arms are too stretch out. It is impossible too move body back when riding down hill.

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    The bike has slacker hta, so your weight is already further behind the front wheel.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    Eep opp ork ah ah.
    Don't leave 'em hangin bro! Next line: "That means I love you."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    Fixed it. /thread
    The bike is limited.

  10. #10
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    To truly make the most of modern geometry you need to spend at least thirty minutes a day hanging by your arms to help stretch them out to more ape-like proportions. This will allow you to hang off the back of the bike and tickle your gooch with your rear tyre.

  11. #11
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    I guess it will always be that much harder for some to boldly go etc etc...


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  12. #12
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    Arm length has nothing to do with it if both bikes have the same reach. Neither does muscle memory or pretending that your arms can get longer than the really are.

  13. #13
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    Slack bike front end tend to raise up when I ride up the slope. I have to move body forward to keep front end down

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    How do you guys move hips back to the back of the bike on long slack bikes? The top tube is so long that the arms are too stretch out. It is impossible too move body back when riding down hill.
    Did you get fitted for your bike? Sounds like it might be too big. Even with the new geometry, I don't have this problem if I ride the right size bike (which is a size or two smaller than I used to ride).

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Arm length has nothing to do with it if both bikes have the same reach. Neither does muscle memory or pretending that your arms can get longer than the really are.
    You obviously don't 'know' Picard...
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Slack bike front end tend to raise up when I ride up the slope. I have to move body forward to keep front end down

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    2 word solution: dropper post.

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  17. #17
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    I have dropper post on my bike.

  18. #18
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    Then you may need one of these Picard:

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    You're obviously going to get a lot of unfounded ragging from people that don't understand geometry, like the two above, but you're correct in your experience.
    No, I rag on Ritard because he is a poopy-head.
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  20. #20
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    Picard is setting Canadian culture back by at least 10 years.
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  21. #21
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    It's funny. I used to ride shorter frames with long stems and just got a modern geometry bike. I used to ride a size 18 or thereabouts, and got a large framed modern bike, and the reach feels short to me. The old geometry used long stems, and shorter top tubes but the reach was just as long I think, at least generally, or longer if you wanted it to be by using a longer stem. It just had you further forward on the bike in your normal seated position.
    Anyway, dropping the seat with a dropper like others already said seems to work great when you want to get the weight back. Second, maybe just be patient and do some easy rides trying to find and practice a comfortable position leaned forward a little more?
    I am sort of having the same problem in reverse, trying to adjust to handlebars that feel closer. Especially if I want to do efficient pedaling seated, where I find I want to lean more forward. I am thinking my core needs some strength and arms. Point being, I am trying to adjust to it.
    Good luck anyway

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Baird View Post
    It's funny. I used to ride shorter frames with long stems and just got a modern geometry bike. I used to ride a size 18 or thereabouts, and got a large framed modern bike, and the reach feels short to me. The old geometry used long stems, and shorter top tubes but the reach was just as long I think, at least generally, or longer if you wanted it to be by using a longer stem. It just had you further forward on the bike in your normal seated position.
    Anyway, dropping the seat with a dropper like others already said seems to work great when you want to get the weight back. Second, maybe just be patient and do some easy rides trying to find and practice a comfortable position leaned forward a little more?
    I am sort of having the same problem in reverse, trying to adjust to handlebars that feel closer. Especially if I want to do efficient pedaling seated, where I find I want to lean more forward. I am thinking my core needs some strength and arms. Point being, I am trying to adjust to it.
    Good luck anyway
    Its not that the reach is shorter, its that the seat tube angle is steeper. If you don't adjust your seat position to account for the steeper angle then the bars will feel closer.
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  23. #23
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    It was a big adjustment for me when I got a new bike with the wider bars, shorter stem, and a 29er. The bars being closer in felt like a bigger adjustment than the larger wheel size. I did kind of feel like I was going to go OTB because the bars felt so close, though it couldn't have been all that much closer.
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  24. #24
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    The Attack Position...

    Body position on long slack mountain bike-64128e70a4b5c69bcd0c71db73634406.jpg
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Well, that dude doesn't look like he's cleared to land.


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  26. #26
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    My bike has 70mm stem and mach 5.7 is medium 23 inches top tube. I can still move my skinny ass behind saddle when dropper post is lower

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  27. #27
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    Shorter stem?
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  28. #28
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    70mm is already short. I changed it from 100mm

  29. #29
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    Stick with your 5.7 (shortish top tube). When replacing, avoid bikes with especially long top tubes and let the guys with long torsos/arms ride those. Choose something moderate like a Mojo 3.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    Picard is setting Canadian culture back by at least 10 years.
    Not to mention the progressive mountain bike scene we got goin on, north of the border...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    70mm is already short. I changed it from 100mm
    This is probably your problem if it's a "modern" geometry bike. They design them for short stems. I'd personally go at least down to 50 and maybe down to 30. The bike is designed to use short stems anyway, so you don't fight the design, and solve your reach problem.
    I just had the idea, we should trade, my 50mm for your 70mm stem :P

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    My bike has 70mm stem and mach 5.7 is medium 23 inches top tube. I can still move my skinny ass behind saddle when dropper post is lower

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    So then what's the point of your original question (besides looking for attention)?

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  34. #34
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    The 5.7 is not long, and only a little slack. The XL has less reach than my medium Knolly. If you are really having trouble descending try a 50mm stem.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookie View Post
    Picard is setting Canadian culture back by at least 10 years.
    Back? Was it ever ahead? "cept for Rush.

  36. #36
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    I don't have trouble descending on mach 5.7 but ascending is the issue. I have to shift my weight forward a great deal to hold down front end.

  37. #37
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    ^^^^ Solution found, problem solved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I don't have trouble descending on mach 5.7 but ascending is the issue. I have to shift my weight forward a great deal to hold down front end.
    and you dont think this is normal?? With a slacker front end, you're going to have to move your weight further ahead.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Back? Was it ever ahead? "cept for Rush.
    Easy there cowboy.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I don't have trouble descending on mach 5.7 but ascending is the issue. I have to shift my weight forward a great deal to hold down front end.
    This is pretty typical with "new" geometry. Both the slacker head angle and shorter chainstays contribute to it. This is one reason i prefer a flatter saddle like Fizik Tundra which makes it easier to sit more forward on the saddle, versus something that is more contoured like WTB volt or Fizik Gobi.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_joe View Post
    This is pretty typical with "new" geometry. Both the slacker head angle and shorter chainstays contribute to it.
    Perhaps on poorly executed examples, but a proper "new" geo bike should have a steep enough STA to keep the weight centred and make the bike climb as well as [if not better than] most traditional frames. HTA has pretty much nothing to do with it. Pivot are famous for short chainstays and slack seat tubes, probably the best bet would be to find some sort of adjustable travel fork to help correct the geometry of the frame while climbing steep stuff.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Don't leave 'em hangin bro! Next line: "That means I love you."

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    oh wait a minute. Fitch loves me?

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    You can also try tweaking your bar height if you have extra spacers above or below your stem. If you like where your bars are distance wise from the seat changing the height of your bars can help you fine tune things. If you can take 10mm from under the stem and see if that helps you get the balance you're looking for.

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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    oh wait a minute. Fitch loves me?
    Hold it! Hold it! Hold the presses! This thread was only a cry for attention after all! Picard only wanted Fitchlove

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  45. #45
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    I'm torn on how silly, smug or serious any reply should be.

    I'm smiling because I really like my few months old long, slack and big bike. My wife likes it and she's has been riding a modern big and long bike before I got my bike so I guess there's proof that size matters.

    One tip is build and lead and tweak a trail system and then have the prototypes of the bike you ride spend time there. The radically change Fuel EX was a bare AL prototype on my home trails a year before it was a product.

    Honestly, some past bikes were probably best for a short, steep climb but they were pretty bad at everything else if compared to my new bike. Two weeks ago some of us with new bikes were on a ride laughing at the new style bike and low bottom bracket haters because overall, they do so much so well.

    In all fairness it might be the latest of the breed and where you ride that makes a difference. My first more modern bike was not as good about keeping the front wheel down.

    Consider where someone lives and travels. I live and travel where a climb is typically 200 to 1200 feet and used to spend 3 months a year where a climb was a few thousand feet. Visitors from Chicago to places near me call 200 to 600 feet big climbs.

    I don't know Picard's bike but have spent enough on trails time with some great current bikes to say they work incredibly well for about everything.
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  46. #46
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    my pivot mach 5.7 is really good at climb and descending. I just wonder if I should shorten stem a bit more.

  47. #47
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    Hook up the shockwiz to your stem and it will let you know.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitflogger View Post
    One tip is build and lead and tweak a trail system and then have the prototypes of the bike you ride spend time there. The radically change Fuel EX was a bare AL prototype on my home trails a year before it was a product.
    This is a great tip. One of those "it's just so obvious why doesn't everyone do that."

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrashbarg View Post
    This is a great tip. One of those "it's just so obvious why doesn't everyone do that."
    Yes it is but what I don't get is the bikes are popular all over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    my pivot mach 5.7 is really good at climb and descending. I just wonder if I should shorten stem a bit more.
    I want those tires that change width and diameter before a stem that I can shorten.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    my pivot mach 5.7 is really good at climb and descending. I just wonder if I should shorten stem a bit more.
    if your problem is with climbing, put the longer stem back on. a shorter stem will just make you wheelie up the hill...


  51. #51
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    Short stems don't really impact climbing, body position does. One of the best climbers I know has a 35mm stem. Of course you can be too cramped, but that's a reach and top tube issue. The 5.7 is already short in that department.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Perhaps on poorly executed examples, but a proper "new" geo bike should have a steep enough STA to keep the weight centred and make the bike climb as well as [if not better than] most traditional frames. HTA has pretty much nothing to do with it. Pivot are famous for short chainstays and slack seat tubes, probably the best bet would be to find some sort of adjustable travel fork to help correct the geometry of the frame while climbing steep stuff.
    Or you could just move the saddle forward on the seatpost an appropriate amount. There's no indication that it's already in the right place, or that he's run out of adjustment to move it forward. He wants a shorter reach anyway, and is close to doing wheelies up hills. Keeping that front wheel down is a matter of body weight position relative to the back wheel, and the best correction for seated climbing is saddle position.

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    Seat position on a mountain bike is not static like a road bike. Sliding back and forth on the seat is what MTB is all about when climbing or descending.

    Unless you are on the wrong size frame subtle adjustments as recommended here such as adjusting seat location and stem length should do the job.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoDon View Post
    Seat position on a mountain bike is not static like a road bike. Sliding back and forth on the seat is what MTB is all about when climbing or descending.

    Unless you are on the wrong size frame subtle adjustments as recommended here such as adjusting seat location and stem length should do the job.
    Why assume he put it in the right place in the first place?

    edit: Oops, I think you might agree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xcandrew View Post
    Why assume he put it in the right place in the first place?

    edit: Oops, I think you might agree with me.
    Yes I do

    My point is unless he bought the wrong frame (size or geometry depending on where he rides) he should be able to make adjustments to the seat and stem length to correct issues with cockpit for climbing and descending.

    And I know I do a ton of moving around on the seat depending on what I am doing.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    70mm is already short. I changed it from 100mm
    back when I started riding I used long stem. My 2003 KHS had a 130mm stem on it nad 585mm bars. In time I adjusted that, but stem length are getting shorter.

    I am 5'7" and have 3 mtn bikes

    29HT = 23" ETT 90 mm stem
    29HT = 23.6" ETT and 80 mm stem
    27.5FS = 24" ETT and 50 mm stem

    The two HT are my XC bikes and feel very much the same. In fact I played around with all the touch point because I wanted a similar cockpit and position. These run fixed seat posts and set-up for XC style riding.

    The FS bike is has a much longer TT and with 70mm stem is too long. When I turn the bike my arm just goes too far to feel comfortable. With the 50 mm stem the bike feels right. It in fact is touch shorter than my 2 29ers. However this is my "enduro" bike and with a dropper post is more about DH terrain.

    So what does this all mean. Longer top tubes need shorter stems because the body can only reach so far. The longer top tube are not there to move the rider farther forward but in fact to move the front wheel out father in front and keep the rider in the same spot.

    This can be expressed in may ways and reach is one of them, but the effect is really to move the rider back in between the wheels more. If you go with a longer top tube and don't shorten the stem you are not really do thing that much as body moves forward or is reaching.

    Now if you are using a set-back seat post than can be changed to straight seat post. That will move the rider forward and in seated position make the bars feel closer. That will also impact the relationship between the knees and the pedals which may or may not be good thing.

    I see the geometry change as movement from the old school road bike mentality. On road bikes the top tube are short, stems are long and handle bars are such that it moves you even farther out and are narrow. What this means is with the location of the riders Center of Gravity is much farther forward relative to the front wheel. This good for quick handling and aero profiles, but not good on steeps. Over years Mtn bikes have bee moving to longer top tubes, shorter stems, wider bars, slacker head angles all in an attempt to make the bike more stable downhill. The expense of that is climbing performance and flat land cornering.

    This why XC bikes are different from Enduo bikes and DH bikes.

    Still designers are working make changes to the riders CG to maintain some reasonable level of both. Rider position is changing some as well, but some things are sort of fixed in space. Riders legs, arms and torsos are only so long for a given size and have to fit a comfortable range as well as range that achieves the right CG location for the intended style of riding. This is big factor in both handling characteristics and overall bike feel.

    So a 70mm stem may simply be too long and 60 or 50 may be much better. Now if you have XC bike and need 50mm stem on it or a enduro bike and need 100 mm stem you are probably off on frame size. That said however even that rule of thumb is changing.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I don't have trouble descending on mach 5.7 but ascending is the issue. I have to shift my weight forward a great deal to hold down front end.
    I have the same issues with my 68 deg head angle FS bike compared to my 69.5 and 71 deg HT HT bikes. I have learned to adapt by moving my body way forward on the seat. I have that bike set-up for DH optimization so I don't feel the need to change it. You bike is mach 5.7 and was never design as super strong climber. That is in part the price you pay for slack HA. For a short time I had one size too small freeride bike. 50mm stem with 170mm fork and 67 deg head angle. I had bit3ch of a a time keeping the front wheel down on the ground. It was not an issue with too long of a top tube, but more fork length and HA combined. I got rid of it because I hated climbing on it and could never use the DH speed of the bike.

    You can try to move the seat farther forward on the rail to move you body forward. That should help climbing by putting more weight on the front wheels. I can't say how it will work for knees and the ability to put power in the pedals.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

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    New bike time....

    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    I have dropper post on my bike.
    One of these will see you right

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I have the same issues with my 68 deg head angle FS bike compared to my 69.5 and 71 deg HT HT bikes. I have learned to adapt by moving my body way forward on the seat.
    HTA is the one number everyone seems fixated on when in fact it has little to do with body position (or climbing ability) when compared to STA, stem length/bar width, and reach/ETT measurement. Are all those measurements identical on the bikes you're comparing?

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    Long slack mountain bike makes me sleepy. Especially after meal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    HTA is the one number everyone seems fixated on when in fact it has little to do with body position (or climbing ability) when compared to STA, stem length/bar width, and reach/ETT measurement. Are all those measurements identical on the bikes you're comparing?
    Not identical, but really they can't be

    Bike 1 29er HT - 120mm fork 69.5 HA (with 120 mm fork) 23" EET 90mm stem
    Bike 2 29 HT 100 mm fork 71 deg HA, but .6" longer TT, (10mm shorter stem) Set-up as SS so climbing steeps is all out of the saddle. Descending is very similar to the geared bike. despite the steeper angles.

    Bike 3 27.5 FS 130mm fork 68 deg HA 24" TT. Short 50mm stem. When riding I feel the front tire farther in front and rear suspension sag will also slacken the bike out. It has the longest wheelbase too. It much better on steep descents than the other two bikes especially using the dropper post. I also have the fewest miles on this bike and if I climb seated like I do on my geared HT the front end will wander. I have to get way forward and focus on keeping the front end down to make it climb well. Even then I feel the rear suspension take bit out the climbing power. This most noticeable on super steep climbs where I need to stand. Both HT are more efficient at taking each pedal stroke and converting to forward momentum. I have learned to compensate for rear wheel movement on the HT so that is not a big effect. On the FS bike the rear wheel tracks better, but it also sucks out just a bit power and sometimes I need that bit of power to clear a rock, log etc. I have been work on adjusting technique to better suit the bike, but it takes time. The two HT are also 5-6 lbs lighter and the 29" wheels roll over stiff better than 27.5.
    Joe
    '12 Santa Cruz Highball 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5",Vassago Verhauen SS 29" XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    Long slack mountain bike makes me sleepy. Especially after meal.
    You need dick massage from Fitch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    I have the same issues with my 68 deg head angle FS bike compared to my 69.5 and 71 deg HT HT bikes. I have learned to adapt by moving my body way forward on the seat. I have that bike set-up for DH optimization so I don't feel the need to change it. You bike is mach 5.7 and was never design as super strong climber. That is in part the price you pay for slack HA. For a short time I had one size too small freeride bike. 50mm stem with 170mm fork and 67 deg head angle. I had bit3ch of a a time keeping the front wheel down on the ground. It was not an issue with too long of a top tube, but more fork length and HA combined. I got rid of it because I hated climbing on it and could never use the DH speed of the bike.

    You can try to move the seat farther forward on the rail to move you body forward. That should help climbing by putting more weight on the front wheels. I can't say how it will work for knees and the ability to put power in the pedals.
    Moving the seat forward will have no effect on the knees if the saddle to bottom bracket distance is maintained. You would raise it a tiny bit when moving the seat forward to compensate for it getting slightly closer to the bottom bracket. There is no way it can hurt the knee - people have success on triathlon bikes with the seat way forward, and recumbents with the seat way back.

    The best power position is one that places your center of gravity over the pedals in the forward part of the stroke. That way, when you are pushing hard, just about lifting your ass up off the saddle, your weight is lined up over the pedals to help you push. How it feels when you transition from sitting to standing and standing to sitting is one of the things I feel for when setting saddle fore-aft position. If I need to move my ass backwards to sit down and it feels like getting out of a lounge chair standing up, the saddle is too far back. The saddle should already be pretty close to getting your weight over the pedals like a standing position would, so the transition would feel more like standing straight up.

    The knee over pedal spindle (KOPS) position with the cranks horizontal is a pretty good starting point that approximates this pretty well. KOPS can vary depending on how it is measured (what part of knee to place the plumb line, and whether it falls at the pedal spindle or 1-2 cm behind, etc.). Sometimes it is ripped on due to the variety of interpretations, but the general idea places the body mass over the forward position of the pedals.

    Saddle setback (horizontal distance from plumb line at saddle nose to the bottom bracket) is a good way to measure this and be able to replicate it on your bikes or compare to others to see if you are in the ballpark. For riders of around my height of about 5'9-5'10", I see most cross country pro riders on the Bike Radar bike checks are around 45 mm to 50 mm, with some up to the low 60s mm, but not many out of that range. I personally prefer the shorter end of that. Of course the that setback would vary with rider height/saddle height, and assumes a normal shaped saddle (not a short nosed one, for example). At the ~47 mm setback I use, I slide forward some, but not much, on the saddle for the steepest climbs that are still rideable in the saddle, don't get too light on the front end despite 430 mm chainstays, and I get full body weight lined up over the pedals as soon as I lift my ass off the saddle.

    The front end measurements of the bike like head tube angle, stem length, top tube length don't really factor in on how light the front end of the bike gets on a steep climb if your cockpit is set up saddle position first and you have a fixed saddle to bar distance and bar to saddle level/drop that you always try to maintain in your setups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    You need dick massage from Fitch.
    I can almost smell the alcohol oozing from that post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I can almost smell the alcohol oozing from that post.
    Lol. Sig-worthy!
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    You need HIPS AND BUMS ENLARGEMENT CREAM.
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    I have to buy a narrow saddle so I get my cute butt behind it while descending the hill

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    ok, where's this going Picard?
    A bad day of cycling is better than a good day at work

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    The new Rocky mountain slayer has steep tube angle. Review showes it is difficult to climb on steep setting.
    Front end lift up. I am wondering if this is common issue for most all mountain bikes

    Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    ok, where's this going Picard?
    I just wanted to ask questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    The new Rocky mountain slayer has steep tube angle. Review showes it is difficult to climb on steep setting.
    Front end lift up. I am wondering if this is common issue for most all mountain bikes

    Sent from my F3213 using Tapatalk
    For real? Every review and verified user comment indicates that the new Slayer climbs better then an Altitude! Not sure where you got your info from. I know a guy with a new Slayer who had 2 previous Altitides who confirms that the Slayer climbs better. According to most, the most surprising thing about the new Slayer is its climbing ability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    For real? Every review and verified user comment indicates that the new Slayer climbs better then an Altitude! Not sure where you got your info from. I know a guy with a new Slayer who had 2 previous Altitides who confirms that the Slayer climbs better. According to most, the most surprising thing about the new Slayer is its climbing ability.
    You guys are wasting your time with Picard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    For real? Every review and verified user comment indicates that the new Slayer climbs better then an Altitude! Not sure where you got your info from. I know a guy with a new Slayer who had 2 previous Altitides who confirms that the Slayer climbs better. According to most, the most surprising thing about the new Slayer is its climbing ability.
    Yeah for real. I read MTb reviews dude

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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    You need HIPS AND BUMS ENLARGEMENT CREAM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    You guys are wasting your time with Picard.
    Agreed. Fk it.

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    no fck around when the captain is here. watch your language. !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Don't leave 'em hangin bro! Next line: "That means I love you."

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