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  1. #1
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    Bike weight and effort

    How much additional effort does it take to pedal a 29 lb bike compared to a 25 lb bike?

    I have 2 Mountain bikes, a Klein Pulse Pro from 1997 and a 2008 Cannondale Prophet 2. I rode the Klein the other day and it seemed to climb well and pedal easy. Took the Prophet2 out with my GF and my daughter who were riding horses on trails and it seemed I could not get out of low low gear. Every hill was ratchet down to low and grind away and they were not that steep of hills. The Prophet has always felt a little sluggish but it could be I;m a little out of shape and not used to riding. It didn't seem that way on the Klein. Plus back in May we took a motorcycle trip to Bend OR and went for a ride with CogWild bike tours and I rode a Trek (not sure the model; edit: I think Trek Remedy) with the new 27.5 wheels and it didn't seem to be sluggish. I find that the Prophet2 seems to climb better with the suspension set to downhill mode and not CC mode.My 3rd bike is a Trek 1.7 from 2008 or 2009 road bike. It also seems fast.

  2. #2
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    On the same bike a 2-3 lbs difference in weight is pretty noticeable. A 5 lbs is definitely noticeable. But between different bikes rider position, tires, wheel weight, psi, suspension etc can add up to more than the apparent 5 lbs difference.

    If you think a bike is unusually sluggish then examine the drive train and make sure everything moves freely.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by borabora View Post
    On the same bike a 2-3 lbs difference in weight is pretty noticeable. A 5 lbs is definitely noticeable. But between different bikes rider position, tires, wheel weight, psi, suspension etc can add up to more than the apparent 5 lbs difference.

    If you think a bike is unusually sluggish then examine the drive train and make sure everything moves freely.
    I've checked all that and drivetrain is working smooth. When i test rode the Cannondale a couple different times before buying it didn't seem sluggish. I was looking at a Santa Cruz Heckler at the time but got this instead. It was a little less $$$

  4. #4
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    Weight your front wheel and tire. If you could drop 2 lbs. it would make a difference without a lot of cost.
    Carbonbicycle.cc has wide carbon rims. Build with a hub with changeable endcaps. Do the rear and you get faster spinup.

  5. #5
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    Before you get sucked into being a weight weenie, make sure your own weight is in check. If you can lose 5 pounds from yourself, those 5 pounds on the bike will feel lighter in comparison.

  6. #6
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    I used to think that bike weight was a really big deal but I'm less bothered now. I've had three hard-tails that weren't miles apart in weight but felt very different to ride. The bike I have now is very short and stiff and it turns effort into movement much better than the other two bikes did.

  7. #7
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    I don't notice the difference much until it's in the wheels/tires...then its really noticeable.
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  8. #8
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    Wheels and tires. That makes the most difference for sure. I have a Prophet and I converted it to 650b a couple of years ago and went with a light wheel set. The bike flies now. As a single pivot design, the Prophet is susceptible to pedal bob which can suck the energy out of your efforts, making the bike feel sluggish. I use the Manitou 3way SPV rear shock to eliminate this. Make sure your rear shock is up to the right pressure. The Prophet is a tank, but I have mine down to 27.5 pounds and really like it. I was going to get a 29'er like all of my riding buddies, but for fun I converted the Prophet and I wouldn't switch now. Though the VPP suspension on the Santa Cruz bikes is really nice.
    My name is Chris and I ride a Prophet 650b with a Lefty.

  9. #9
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    A super basic single pivot needs a lot of shock valving to tune the suspension behavior into something manageable. In particular, you need adjustable compression damping. Some other designs don't require the shock to do so much work to tune out unwanted suspension movement.

    Yeah, 4lb is pretty noticeable, but I would bet that there's more than just bike weight going on here.

  10. #10
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    Re: Bike weight and effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Petti the Yeti View Post
    Before you get sucked into being a weight weenie, make sure your own weight is in check. If you can lose 5 pounds from yourself, those 5 pounds on the bike will feel lighter in comparison.
    Well there is that valid point. but I'm the same weight riding each bike.

  11. #11
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    Re: Bike weight and effort

    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet Julio View Post
    Wheels and tires. That makes the most difference for sure. I have a Prophet and I converted it to 650b a couple of years ago and went with a light wheel set. The bike flies now. As a single pivot design, the Prophet is susceptible to pedal bob which can suck the energy out of your efforts, making the bike feel sluggish. I use the Manitou 3way SPV rear shock to eliminate this. Make sure your rear shock is up to the right pressure. The Prophet is a tank, but I have mine down to 27.5 pounds and really like it. I was going to get a 29'er like all of my riding buddies, but for fun I converted the Prophet and I wouldn't switch now. Though the VPP suspension on the Santa Cruz bikes is really nice.
    Read about a couple of other guys doing that conversion. Need to change fork? Front derailer? I wonder if the klein frame is stiffer and more efficient at putting drive to the ground, with the weight being a slight benefit. Didnt try locking out the shock on the prophet.

  12. #12
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    I have the Lefty Max 140, so no issue with the fork fitting the bigger hoops. I presume you don't have a Lefty. Check the 27.5 Forum for your fork. It might fit.

    Which Rear Shock do you have? I wouldn't lock it out, but if you have a shock that has some adjustment for initial low speed damping, then tune it higher until you get rid of most of your pedal bob. For Fox it was Pedal Pro? Manitou was SPV. Others have different names for essentially the same thing, a threshold gate that prevents shock movement below the threshold.

    If I put Nevegals on my bike, it would feel sluggish compared to what I have now. Lots of reasons for a bike to feel faster than another. Wheel and tire weight are probably the most significant factors, except that with tires, rolling resistance can trump weight.
    My name is Chris and I ride a Prophet 650b with a Lefty.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet Julio View Post
    Wheels and tires. That makes the most difference for sure.
    So bigger 29er wheels are better because?....

  14. #14
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    That's a whole different animal. A lighter wheelset of the same size, in the OP's case 26", is a difference maker. 29'er wheels roll over better, but you lose some maneuverability. The longer chain stays and lower bb have some disadvantages, but I really like the newer Tallboy with the VPP. Very smooth.
    My name is Chris and I ride a Prophet 650b with a Lefty.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet Julio View Post
    That's a whole different animal...
    Yes, but the principal is the same. 26'' wheels and tyres will be lighter than the equivalent 29'' ones and the chain and seat-stays will be shorter. So the smaller wheels will accelerate, and slow down, more easily.

    Sure, the big wheels will roll over stuff a bit better but you can't have it all ways. Pros and cons to everything.

  16. #16
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    I was wondering about tires, stock maxxis right now. Maybe go to 2.1 size instead of 2.35. And a lighter carcass more for trails and xc riding.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilW View Post
    I was wondering about tires, stock maxxis right now. Maybe go to 2.1 size instead of 2.35. And a lighter carcass more for trails and xc riding.
    stock tires most likely are cheap wire bead. Get a folding bead tire (lighter without sacrificing ride quality). You could try something with a really light casing if your trails don't tend to shred sidewalls, but if you ride around a lot of rock, I'd recommend against it. Tubeless is another option.

  18. #18
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    I've used wtb velocirapter lazer version in the past and loved them. Really light and supple 220 tpi casing, and kevlar bead. Never had a flat on any trail ride.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilW View Post
    I was wondering about tires, stock maxxis right now. Maybe go to 2.1 size instead of 2.35. And a lighter carcass more for trails and xc riding.
    and if you still run tubes continental makes some quality lightweight. I just put on a specialized control 2.3 on the front that is sub 500 g , nuts

  20. #20
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    I ride a ton of unfamiliar bikes the diff. its only really noticeable only the first few mins.
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  21. #21
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    Just ride what you have now until it fails and then look into something with less weight as a replacement.

    I have two wheel sets for my Pivot Mach 429:

    *Stans Crest
    *Stans Arch EX

    I don't even use the Crest wheel set anymore because I got used to the added weight of the Arch EX wheel set which is stronger. The Crest wheel set is mighty light though, so it's going onto my commuter pavement roller after I mount some skinnies on it.

    The moral of the story is, you will get stronger pushing the cranks with a little more weight. You will get used to it before you know it. JUST RIDE.

  22. #22
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    I took my 32 pound mid-80s Trek mtb commuter, with it's 48x19 gear, up on the trails recently. 3 things surprised me; 26x2.3" slick tires grip surprisingly well - even on decomposed granite over hardpack, I could actually keep that gear turning over, and the 10 pound difference between the commuter and my nice bike wasn't that big of deal.
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  23. #23
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    Too many factor. Back in the day my 32 lbs Reign pedal lighter than the 27ish lbs Klein Adept same tires. If you are a masher a hardtail would feel pretty good on the climb.

    But at the end of the day 4 pounds difference would feel lighter in general. The follow up question is is it more fun to descend on the Pulse or the Prophet. I have both and just want to know your answer

  24. #24
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    Have lots of descending on the Klein as well as lots of climbing, and it was fun no doubt. Changed the stock fork for a judy SL 100mm since about 2000. Got the cdale prophet because i wanted some extra cush on the downhill without losing much climbing. It's good on the downhill for sure but I'm not fast through the really rough stuff. Klein is definitely fun going down hill, handles well. I think i would like only 100mm travel both ends in a lighter bike. Anything like that now is a 29r

  25. #25
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    A more definite answer is the prophet is more fun DOWNHILL but i don't ride just downhill

  26. #26
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    I've never been a weight weenie. I started out on a +40# Murray chrome MTB circa 1980. Everything I ride regularly now is 30#. If I was a racer in top shape, I'm sure it would matter. My fat bike stores energy in those "awful" heavy tires and wheels and makes it fun as hell to ride. I coast through entire sections watching my friends pedal away. Physics says it has to be harder to pedal, but I can't tell.

    I ride a buddies 22# ish carbon bike on occasion. It transfers my leg power better, but everything else is worse. It slows faster, is more impacted by trail features, and the wheels flex way more. I also occasionally ride a borrowed 37# Pugsley. It is a lead sled that feels half as fast a my 30# fat bike. I don't really know why because it is less heavier than my fatbike to the carbon bike, but you would swear sometimes it is 60#.

    Dragging brakes and dragging bearings wear me out like nothing else. When my Avids would drag randomly on most rides I thought I was dragging a 10# weight without wheels.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhilW View Post
    A more definite answer is the prophet is more fun DOWNHILL but i don't ride just downhill
    I know too bad I don't mind climbing with heavier bike though, somehow I gets me going as long as I can shred it on the way down.

  28. #28
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    All things being equal 5lbs is gonna make a bike easier to pedal. To those who say lose 5lbs instead of the bike, "all things being equal" a five pound lighter bike is gonna be easier to pedal.

    On a more rational note: a lighter bike is gonna be easier to flick, carry and otherwise handle better.

    For us mature guys and gals, losing five pounds is not something you do just in a week. We are much more efficient with burning calories.

    Lose weight AND lighten the bike. Now there is a discussion ending thought!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnieron12 View Post
    I ride a ton of unfamiliar bikes the diff. its only really noticeable only the first few mins.
    definitely, also that first hill section i notice things are not quite the same but then it's still just the usual work

  30. #30
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    I do know that carrying an extra 5 lbs will make one slower by 30 seconds on a 5K climb if that helps.

    Weight matters. In your case OP, I'm not sure how many watts, for example, would be needed to pedal both bikes in a given distance.
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  31. #31
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    If you are talking mostly non-wheel weight, I don't think 4 lbs is really THAT much of an issue. Yeah, it will show up on a timed hill climb. Weight on the wheels does make a bigger difference.

    There are a whole mess of reasons why some bikes are more or less sluggish. Weight is (in my experience) a pretty minor one on the list. Tires, suspension design/setup, and cockpit setup are generally more important factors.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crankout View Post
    I do know that carrying an extra 5 lbs will make one slower by 30 seconds on a 5K climb if that helps.

    Weight matters. In your case OP, I'm not sure how many watts, for example, would be needed to pedal both bikes in a given distance.
    5k of vertical, or 5k of trail?

    Totally different animals.
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    5k of vertical, or 5k of trail?

    Totally different animals.
    I'm pretty sure it's a 5k of trail, 5k of elevation gain is pretty epic, especially for everyday ride.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885 View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's a 5k of trail, 5k of elevation gain is pretty epic, especially for everyday ride.
    Well, 5k of trail is almost meaningless. Does it have elevation change? Is it technically challenging? Is is pavement smooth and flat?
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Well, 5k of trail is almost meaningless. Does it have elevation change? Is it technically challenging? Is is pavement smooth and flat?
    Yep you are right. I think his point was the 30 seconds difference.

  36. #36
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    Raising 5 lbs by 5k' takes about 10 Wh (the energy required to keep a 100 Watt bulb lit for 6 minutes). So if you do the climb in 2 hours (good for you) it would take an extra 5W of power to get up the mountain on a 5lbs heavier bike. Of course that is the physics value which is a minimum required in a 100% efficient system.

    A 5 lbs extra weight on a 5k' climb would make a significant difference to me. Depending on terrain I think it would take me 4+ hours to do such a ride. Maybe a 10 minute impact?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    So bigger 29er wheels are better because?....
    Because weight is a single variable.

    Are you dim?
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    5k of vertical, or 5k of trail?

    Totally different animals.
    Roadie reference, not trail.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Because weight is a single variable.

    Are you dim?
    I guess I must be, what do you mean by that?

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    Please don't start an argument or be insulting to each other over this topic. My conclusions are a follows ;
    1. Bike design /intended purpose. Prophet not as efficient transferring energy/effort to the ground as forward motion.
    2. Lighter wheels and tires on the Pulse Pro.
    3. Overall bike weight.
    Comparing my 3 bikes, the Trek 1.7 road at 22lbs or so with nice lightweight wheels and rigid frame accelerates with ease and climbs smartly with higher gearing. The Klein frame is more like the road frame at transferring input to forward motion even with gearing closer to the Prophet's. Tire weight /contact patch size /rolling resistance etc are huge contributors to required effort. Prophet is targeted at going faster (relatively) over rough terrain and downhill fun runs. Lighter /smaller tires and tubes is my best choice i think and use the lockout feature on the shock when climbing.

  41. #41
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    Until you get into really heavy bikes the geometry and suspension of the bike can make a bigger difference than the weight. For example I have an old Cannondale Raven that is probably six or seven pounds lighter than my other bike, but since it has a very inefficient suspension design the heavy bike is actually more pleasant for climbing. I can be kind of a weight weenie sometimes (my road bike is 14lbs), but sometimes it's kinda nice just to ride a tank. I figure I'm getting that much better of a workout and who needs that extra edge of lightweight if you aren't racing or doing some all day ride?

  42. #42
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    I had 2 Flash 29er's in Large, one weighed 21 the other 25.... I could feel the weight difference with every pedal stroke.

    NEXT

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    Lighter bikes are easier to pick up over fallen trees and push up those way too steep hills

  44. #44
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    Your not getting a better workout with a heavier bike. At least when measured in time. One is going to put out the same effort regardless. One just generates more net speed with the lighter bike. 1hr of riding is 1 hr of riding.

    One "could" argue that a given loop, it will take slightly longer to complete. So in that case.."yes", the workout is indeed more.
    "I've breathed the mtn air, man" Johnny Cash

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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckman View Post
    One "could" argue that a given loop, it will take slightly longer to complete. So in that case.."yes", the workout is indeed more.
    But isn't that kinda what you always do? I cycle known routes so always a set distance, the time taken varies. I never stop after a predetermined amount of time has elapsed, as that might result in me not getting back to my house! ;0)

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    But isn't that kinda what you always do? I cycle known routes so always a set distance, the time taken varies. I never stop after a predetermined amount of time has elapsed, as that might result in me not getting back to my house! ;0)
    Just the opposite for me. I have an idea of what amount of time I want to be riding for, and if I'm exceeding my pace expectations I add more to the route on the fly (not less). In other words, I'm always going to do my planned distance and route at bare minimum, but leave open the possibility of doing more. A quicker bike - for the given terrain - allows me to cover more trails. It's the same workout in fitness terms (set effort across set time) but if I can see a couple more trail segments then so much the better. Gives me more practice on the skills side riding a bit more singletrack.
    Nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    Just the opposite for me. I have an idea of what amount of time I want to be riding for, and if I'm exceeding my pace expectations I add more to the route on the fly.
    Fair enough. We usually decide where we are going to go before we leave the house/car. We know how far we've gone but rarely bother looking at how long it took.

    We used to. I had a friend who was very competitive and we used to see who could get around our most regular local route the fastest. Never bother with that stuff now, pointless.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Fair enough. We usually decide where we are going to go before we leave the house/car. We know how far we've gone but rarely bother looking at how long it took.

    We used to. I had a friend who was very competitive and we used to see who could get around our most regular local route the fastest. Never bother with that stuff now, pointless.
    Not my M.O. at all. I usually have a certain amount of time I can allocate to riding. I like riding. I'd ride more if I could. So, I'm just short-changing myself if I pack it in on a ride day while I still have time available (if my route doesn't take up my entire time slot). It's not a question of trying to ride faster, it's a question of getting in as much riding as I can. I like to journey around and see and experience different spots, different trails. I get more of both if I ride more quickly.
    Nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip View Post
    I like to journey around and see and experience different spots, different trails. I get more of both if I ride more quickly.
    Going fast on testing trails is great fun but when we ride locally we don't race. Where I live is very hilly and we tend to stop at the tops of the hills to take in the view and just enjoy being in the country for a minute.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by JefferyfClarke View Post
    The most important consideration to think of when it comes to cycling is ensuring your well being and safety. Most cyclists would agree that finding clothing and gear that also looks good is important too.
    Yep, good looking gear reduces effort. Proven 100%.

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