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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Many opportunities to deescalate on both side.
    Many opportunities to avoid a situation altogether. A life lost over a parking space...

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    Switzerland has a lot of guns and low crime because of mandatory conscription. Those who have a gun have served in the military and are extensively trained. There's also only 8.5 million people there.

    The US has regular shootings because we have 300,000,000 guns floating around. No other country has a presence of guns like that. There are far fewer school shooting in most other countries because gun ownership is rare elsewhere. Gun culture is uniquely American; its deep in our history and way of life, like it or not.

    As they say, Lincoln made all men free, but Samuel Colt made all men equal.
    Seen that number before, probably just a bit back when the US population was 300 mil and it made it easier to remember since that's a gun for every man, woman or child.

    This link below is something I bumped into the other day doing some reading.... must be the average gun owner has


    Americans vastly overestimate the number of gun owners

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5c0143965035



    Three percent of the population own half of the civilian guns in the US
    The Big Three -
    Another survey (OCT 2017) breaks down some numbers estimating 3% of Americans own 50% of the guns here.
    Half of the gun owners have one or two.
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.

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    Whaaat? You seem to forget the 1940s and even the 1910s. America has a combination of lack of mental healthcare, rights that are totally freedom biased and a culture that doesn't value protecting the innocent more than the criminal. The Swiss have the most liberal gun laws in Europe, good mental health care, manditory service in the National Guard and they don't hero worship the Timothy McVeighs of the world. Very few privately held firearms in Asia and every country you listed has way fewer laws that protect the innocent until proven guilty. You can be caned in Singapore for vandalism and put in a Japanese prison for bike theft. Not exactly an apples to pears comparison.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    This is exactly the reason you guys should carry a gun. The US is full of crazy people.

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    Didn't something awful happen in Toronto the other day? A man named Hussain with mental health problems? How did that happen in Canada is there no laws against shooting people? Look at my avatar, I'm not crazy!
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    some weird crazed desert dweller.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.
    Yeah...the French have always been even-tempered. "Here...take my country. Please." The Italians were even tempered "Please...can't someone make the trains run on time?". The Scaninavians were/are even tempered "Please. Don't bother us".

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    Whaaat? You seem to forget the 1940s and even the 1910s. America has a combination of lack of mental healthcare, rights that are totally freedom biased and a culture that doesn't value protecting the innocent more than the criminal. The Swiss have the most liberal gun laws in Europe, good mental health care, manditory service in the National Guard and they don't hero worship the Timothy McVeighs of the world. Very few privately held firearms in Asia and every country you listed has way fewer laws that protect the innocent until proven guilty. You can be caned in Singapore for vandalism and put in a Japanese prison for bike theft. Not exactly an apples to pears comparison.
    When I lived in Japan, a couple of guys attempted to steal my bike. I had a chain through the wheel but it wasn't locked to anything. They were loading it onto a little dolly. I didn't know a lot of Japanese but I knew how to say "Hey! That's my bike!" They were two older guys and I'm not a big guy and I recall none of us being intimidated by the other, though often Japanese would be intimidated by a foreigner. I'm sure the fact that we didn't really have to worry about the other party having a gun helped in that regard.

    That was about 20 years ago and I don't 100% remember what happened other than us all walking down toward the police station. I think they just cut out before we got there. The police were often pretty indifferent and would usually prefer to avoid any type of confrontation if they possibly could. I had a coworker who got stopped for dui and the cop let him drive home.

    It took me a long time to be able to relax in the crowds I encountered in Japan. For such a packed in population, they really do have an amazingly harmonious society. There were incidents, seems I recall someone going on a stabbing spree and some poisonings, but nothing like the US.
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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanKasier View Post
    Once I got a little closer they started sprinting towards me and I'm pretty sure it wasn't to say hi and pat me on my back. I had enough distance and time to turn around and get away. But this sure did get my heart pumping and angry.
    Very little pisses me off more than when I'm grinding up a 15% grade with my lungs burning and my heart ready to explode, than when some skinny runner comes thump, thump, thumping past me. Hopefully the police will apprehend these jokers before they bruise more egos.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I once had to pull on two dudes in the Backcountry. Not mountain biking but my friend and I were on horseback.

    Here's what happened, in a nutshell. My friend and I rode from Big Bear to some hot springs NW of town. We stopped for lunch and a soak.

    Two guys showed up. They both had shaved heads and large swastikas on the stomachs. They started breaking Budweiser bottles on rocks above the main swim area. One of the old hippies that frequents the spot questioned them. They told him they were going to kill him. While he was talking to them, he was sitting Indian style. Behind him was one of the guys with a raised bowling ball sized rock ready to bludgeon the hippy.

    I already had my hand in my pack. Once the guy got into a stance to crush the hippies head , I stood up ad and aimed at the guy's head and told him if he dropped the rock on the hippies head, I was dropping him. I was committed to killing both of them based on their behavior. They came to their senses when I reminded them they were miles from phone service.

    They left within ten minutes to hike out before dark.. My friend was also carrying and did nothing. I learned right there he wasn't a sheep dog.

    This was around 15 years ago.
    I found this story very compelling until you mentioned a sheepdog and now I just can't take you seriously anymore.

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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpdemello View Post
    I found this story very compelling until you mentioned a sheepdog and now I just can't take you seriously anymore.
    Well I know which one of you I'd rather have next to me in a fight.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    If you think you're going to get away clean killing an unarmed person who is trying to steal your bike, you (and your lawyer) are going to be very disappointed unless you can clearly articulate the threat to your life that that encounter represented.
    Depending on the state you are in, I would hope that a judge or jury would understand the situation, the adrenaline involved, and the element of "unsure-ity."

    I really have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who think that "just because someone breaks into your home, or commits pre-meditated aggravated assault to rob you does not warrant the use of deadly force." It is never the victims responsibility to determine whether this criminal is a violent or non-violent criminal. By the time you discern that, it may be too late for you and your loved ones. Personally, if someone is willing to break the law and steal personal belongings with the use of deadly force, they have proven that they are also willing to steal a person's life with deadly force... At least in the region that I am in, simply watching the news on any given day will prove that the majority of robberies here do not end with smiles and peaceful reconciliation, very often the unarmed victim is murdered even after complying with their robber/murderer.

    I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions. I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by btrigo View Post

    I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions. I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.
    I always find this rationalization amusing. So, do you take a bunch of other stuff on rides that you are far more likely to use than a handgun? A personal locator beacon? Bearspray? Extra food? Two extra tubes? Water filter/pump? Light jacket? Firestarter? Small stove? etc...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I always find this rationalization amusing. So, do you take a bunch of other stuff on rides that you are far more likely to use than a handgun? A personal locator beacon? Bearspray? Extra food? Two extra tubes? Water filter/pump? Light jacket? Firestarter? Small stove? etc...
    It really depends on your ride. If you are riding on trails in an suburban/urban area. The likelihood of needing a fire starter or small stove is going to be zero. Not everyone is doing back country rides.
    Its far more amusing that you think everyone's needs are the same as yours

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    If you are riding on trails in an suburban/urban area. The likelihood of needing a fire starter or small stove is going to be zero.


    Maybe, but still probably higher than the likelihood of needing a firearm

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  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by EugeneTheJeep View Post
    Didn't something awful happen in Toronto the other day? A man named Hussain with mental health problems? How did that happen in Canada is there no laws against shooting people? Look at my avatar, I'm not crazy!
    Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau


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  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau


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    Not really.


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  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau


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  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Canada is becoming like US thanks to immigration policy of moron Trudeau


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    I was under the impression that Canada was VERY selective as to who they allowed into their country?
    Has this changed recently?

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  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal-Cracker View Post
    I was under the impression that Canada was VERY selective as to who they allowed into their country?
    Has this changed recently?

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    Well trudope is letting the same immigrants that cause havoc in Europe. Canada will let in 100 isis fighters soon.

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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Do you think they'll let me in?
    Where are you located? The captain can vouch for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by btrigo View Post
    Depending on the state you are in, I would hope that a judge or jury would understand the situation, the adrenaline involved, and the element of "unsure-ity."

    I really have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who think that "just because someone breaks into your home, or commits pre-meditated aggravated assault to rob you does not warrant the use of deadly force." It is never the victims responsibility to determine whether this criminal is a violent or non-violent criminal. By the time you discern that, it may be too late for you and your loved ones. Personally, if someone is willing to break the law and steal personal belongings with the use of deadly force, they have proven that they are also willing to steal a person's life with deadly force... At least in the region that I am in, simply watching the news on any given day will prove that the majority of robberies here do not end with smiles and peaceful reconciliation, very often the unarmed victim is murdered even after complying with their robber/murderer.

    I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions. I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.
    Breaking into a home is very different than aggravated assault, the law says so too. I know it can vary by state, stand your ground, etc., but shooting an intruder that is trying to steal is very different than them assaulting you.

    The fact that you put those two in the same sentence is scary. All the 'responsible' gun owners I know, which are unfortunately thrown into the same, conservative, pro-trump, republican pool, would agree with me. All of which understand the responsibility of owning a gun and all of which wouldn't resort to using a gun short of being personally assaulted in bed at night or by way of protecting a loved one from imminent death....last resort.

    None of which would brandish a weapon to intimidate and give up their 'cards' unless they had intent to draw and fire.

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    In timely news we have a “sheepdog” defending our handicapped parking spaces:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews...%3fid=56751894
    That guy deserves some prison time.....pathetic. Not saying getting shoved was ok, but I don't see how they let him off that easy.

  22. #322
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    The test has always been "Imminent threat" once the threat to your (or your family's) life has passed, you are no longer able to claim self defense. You can't chase them down and shoot them and expect to not be prosecuted.

    For cops, the test is a little different, as they have to assess the continued threat going forward, i.e. if an armed person escapes, what threat do they pose to others?
    "The man was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. But instead of running home, he ran to second base."

  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by btrigo View Post
    Depending on the state you are in, I would hope that a judge or jury would understand the situation, the adrenaline involved, and the element of "unsure-ity."

    I really have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who think that "just because someone breaks into your home, or commits pre-meditated aggravated assault to rob you does not warrant the use of deadly force." It is never the victims responsibility to determine whether this criminal is a violent or non-violent criminal. By the time you discern that, it may be too late for you and your loved ones. Personally, if someone is willing to break the law and steal personal belongings with the use of deadly force, they have proven that they are also willing to steal a person's life with deadly force... At least in the region that I am in, simply watching the news on any given day will prove that the majority of robberies here do not end with smiles and peaceful reconciliation, very often the unarmed victim is murdered even after complying with their robber/murderer.

    I'd also like to believe that most people who carry are not out looking for a conflict and are strictly taking precautions. I am too of the mantra where I'd rather have it and never need it, than not have it and need it.
    I agree completely. Even states without stand-your-ground laws, even states that incorporate "duty-to-retreat" don't include your home. My friend Massad Ayoob has preached for decades that use of lethal force is advisable in the case of a home break-in. Many states also include your automobile in the "home as castle" doctrine...i.e carjacking is automatically a lethal force scenario. I'm not aware, however, that the "home-as-castle" nor the "carjacking" concept applies to bicycles.

    On the other hand, I have tried but will never understand the mindset of those who go out and buy a gun, stick it in their bedside drawer and now believe that they are safe, sadly thinking that they are capable of effective and appropriate use of deadly force without any additional self-defense training whatsoever (I do not include the generally laughable "training" that goes with most state-required CCW courses). Those people are indeed more dangerous to themselves and their family members than they are to any potential home-invasion malefactor. I agree that they have a right to own that firearm, but they're stupid and dangerous.

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    That guy deserves some prison time.....pathetic. Not saying getting shoved was ok, but I don't see how they let him off that easy.
    That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.
    I have a feeling this isn't over yet. Luckily, Florida still has a court system.
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  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.
    Yes, they are.
    SYG = Open season on minorities.

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  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    Yes, they are.
    SYG = Open season on minorities.

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    Could you elaborate?



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  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    My friend Massad Ayoob has preached for decades
    He wouldn't happen to be a former Colonel in the Mossad would he?
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  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    He wouldn't happen to be a former Colonel in the Mossad would he?
    Kinderguardian?
    "The man was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. But instead of running home, he ran to second base."

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    In timely news we have a “sheepdog” defending our handicapped parking spaces:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews...%3fid=56751894
    Make my day..law.
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  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    That's the law in Florida. Luckily, laws aren't applied based on feelings.
    Thats the law?....still being debated...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    Thats the law?....still being debated...
    Law in Florida since 2005. Many states without stand your ground laws still leave that option upto a jury or judge do to other caveats in their use of force law. Nebraska has both duty to retreat and lesser of evils type leglislation, but if you can't reasonably retreat without risking the type of harm that would justify using lethal force the option remains legally open (if not terribly practicle in all cases). For example, you can't flee the building your in (home and primary workplace have different rules) due to safety concerns (exposure to a more dangerous situation, you can't out run the bad guys, you're concerned about more bad guys). In those situations you can argue (probably in court) that you had no choice. Some guy flips you off in traffic and you get out and start blasting, it's going to be pretty hard to suggest you couldn't have driven away. My thought has always been "Is someone's life in danger?" If the answer is no, it's probably not worth getting into a gunfight. Either on the street or the courtroom.

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    That was Oklahoma, not Florida, and it's not a Stand Your Ground law, it's a home-as-castle law basically an affirmation that when confronted by an intruder, you don't have a duty to retreat in your home, your car, or your business and that lethal force is permitted. The kid in this scenario was judged as justifiable self defense and he is therefore immune from both criminal and civil prosectution.

  34. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    That was Oklahoma, not Florida, and it's not a Stand Your Ground law, it's a home-as-castle law basically an affirmation that when confronted by an intruder, you don't have a duty to retreat in your home, your car, or your business and that lethal force is permitted. The kid in this scenario was judged as justifiable self defense and he is therefore immune from both criminal and civil prosectution.
    1. Much respect for LEOs.

    2. An honest question - If the woman in the Florida shooting (referenced above) had felt threatened, as she was in her car and the man walked across the parking lot to start the confrontation with her, would she have been justified if she shot him? Assuming she was a legal CCW, of course.


    BTW, I am not saying I agree with anything at all about the Florida shooting. Very bad behavior on all sides.
    Is this where I write something witty?

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    Reading this thread made me think if a news recent news story that made me think a bit.

    https://chicago.cbslocal.com/video/3...rjacking-teen/

    Off duty fire fighter leaves his Jeep running, some kid jumps in and steals it, same off duty fire fighter is carrying, unloads on the kid and kills him.

    He basically killed him because he stole his Jeep. Was it justified? Tough call. Firefighter claimed he feared getting run over. In reality, it was probably a quick decision he made because he had a gun on his hip.

    I can understand killing a home intruder because that can be seen as an obvious deadly threat but a car thief? Sounds like the same territory as a mountain bike thief.

    If the fire fighter decides not to pull his gun, he calls the cops, they do their job and insurance takes care of his Jeep. But then again who knows how you'll react in the heat of the moment? It's obvious that the fact he was carrying made it more likely for him to settle the situation himself by shooting the kid. I'm not defending the car thief or the shooter but its a divisive conundrum for sure.
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  36. #336
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    Guys stealing your jeep and driving away are not a threat to your life. If your kid is in back it's different. If you're in the car and they're pointing a gun at you it's different. But they're driving away in your car and you kill them, well that's just murder. You will never be a defendant presenting your side of the story to 12 people who can appreciate the level stress you were under or who have ever used a firearm to defend their lives.

  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    You will never be a defendant presenting your side of the story to 12 people who can appreciate the level stress you were under or who have ever used a firearm to defend their lives.
    That's what caused Florida to jump the shark with having to prove SYG doesn't apply before the case can be brought to trial. It's a tricky one for me as I hold to the same line of thinking as Sir William Blackstone, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    Guys stealing your jeep and driving away are not a threat to your life. If your kid is in back it's different. If you're in the car and they're pointing a gun at you it's different. But they're driving away in your car and you kill them, well that's just murder. You will never be a defendant presenting your side of the story to 12 people who can appreciate the level stress you were under or who have ever used a firearm to defend their lives.
    He was driving at the shooter. And that is why the shooter wasn't charged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    He was driving at the shooter. And that is why the shooter wasn't charged.
    I wasn't quoting the article, just making a rethorical argument. If a car if driving toward you with the intent of running you over that represents a life-threatening event.

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by djlee View Post
    1. Much respect for LEOs.

    2. An honest question - If the woman in the Florida shooting (referenced above) had felt threatened, as she was in her car and the man walked across the parking lot to start the confrontation with her, would she have been justified if she shot him? Assuming she was a legal CCW, of course.
    After he had just killed her boyfriend...? As I read Florida's SYG law...absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    The test has always been "Imminent threat" once the threat to your (or your family's) life has passed, you are no longer able to claim self defense. You can't chase them down and shoot them and expect to not be prosecuted.

    For cops, the test is a little different, as they have to assess the continued threat going forward, i.e. if an armed person escapes, what threat do they pose to others?
    The test is not "imminent threat." The test is whether a person reasonably feared an imminent threat. Even a mistaken fear that is reasonable satisfies the doctrine and the defendant walks. The problem with a lot of these situations isn't that the person had a fear, the problem is that juries have been unwilling, on the available evidence, to tell these people that their fear was not reasonable.

    While the law can differ a lot between states, I'm not aware of one that would remove the right to self defense from a person who reasonably feared some sort of immediate/imminent threat to life or serious injury just because that fear was reasonable, but mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
    Well I know which one of you I'd rather have next to me in a fight.
    I assume you mean me, because I would brandish insults that would cause the opponents deep psychological pain that could last a lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    The test is not "imminent threat." The test is whether a person reasonably feared an imminent threat. Even a mistaken fear that is reasonable satisfies the doctrine and the defendant walks. The problem with a lot of these situations isn't that the person had a fear, the problem is that juries have been unwilling, on the available evidence, to tell these people that their fear was not reasonable.

    While the law can differ a lot between states, I'm not aware of one that would remove the right to self defense from a person who reasonably feared some sort of immediate/imminent threat to life or serious injury just because that fear was reasonable, but mistaken.
    Makes me afraid to move to Florida. Which I guess means that if I did, I can just go ahead and start mowing everyone down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by twodownzero View Post
    The test is not "imminent threat." The test is whether a person reasonably feared an imminent threat. Even a mistaken fear that is reasonable satisfies the doctrine and the defendant walks.
    This is correct...not imminent threat but fear that a "reasonable person" might have that their life was in danger. In the vast majority of states, an intruder in one's home is considered to automatically represent a cause for "reasonable fear" justifying lethal force and absolves one of the "duty to retreat" from such an event. Most states extend that to your car or place of business, and some states, the so-called "stand your ground" or"castle doctrine" states, extend that to pretty much anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Makes me afraid to move to Florida. Which I guess means that if I did, I can just go ahead and start mowing everyone down.
    Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be much safer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be much safer.
    And Indiana, which is about 35 minutes from the south side, does not.

    The vast majority of Chicago is safe from those who take advantage of Indiana’s laws.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be much safer.




    Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Good point! You should move to Chicago instead. Illinois has very restrictive gun laws. I'm sure you'd be much safer.
    My point was that from what has been posted about Florida's laws, it is "shoot first, ask questions later". Of course if you just killed the person, they're not around to ask. I understand someone's right to defend themselves but this just pushes it into have your gun ready and shoot and then decide if it was a real threat. Like when a guy pushes you down because you are harassing his girlfriend and is then backing away. What someone asked you earlier was not if the woman could shoot the guy after he shot her boyfriend; it was could she have shot the guy when he approached her to tell her she shouldn't park there, assuming she legally carried. And that is one of the issues with carrying a gun, making a split second decision that someone's life is dependent on. Great if you save your life, sucks if you kill an innocent person. I think this happens a lot with the police, they panic and kill someone because they did not have the time to make a rational decision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.
    no its not

    Bike hijackers on trails-2017_city_map_122617.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Where are you located? The captain can vouch for you

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    Just south of Vancouver. I've had it with this country. Too many guns.

    Plus I have a craving for Canadian maple syrup and Tim Horton's doughnuts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    My point was that from what has been posted about Florida's laws, it is "shoot first, ask questions later". Of course if you just killed the person, they're not around to ask. I understand someone's right to defend themselves but this just pushes it into have your gun ready and shoot and then decide if it was a real threat. Like when a guy pushes you down because you are harassing his girlfriend and is then backing away. What someone asked you earlier was not if the woman could shoot the guy after he shot her boyfriend; it was could she have shot the guy when he approached her to tell her she shouldn't park there, assuming she legally carried. And that is one of the issues with carrying a gun, making a split second decision that someone's life is dependent on. Great if you save your life, sucks if you kill an innocent person. I think this happens a lot with the police, they panic and kill someone because they did not have the time to make a rational decision.
    Did you use anything other than that anecdote to form your opinion? Like...data?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chazpat View Post
    Makes me afraid to move to Florida.

    Me too. Because snakes and old drivers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Chicago as a whole is a very safe city.
    I'd feel safer in Baghdad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I'd feel safer in Baghdad.
    Explain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Explain.
    I have a suspicion that I'd be less likely to be murdered in Baghdad than in Chicago.

    All a moot point anyway since I won't go near either place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I have a suspicion that I'd be less likely to be murdered in Baghdad than in Chicago.

    All a moot point anyway since I won't go near either place.
    Neither place has any mountains, probably not much in the way of mountain biking trails either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Did you use anything other than that anecdote to form your opinion? Like...data?
    What, that cops sometimes panic and kill someone they shouldn't have?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    no its not

    Click image for larger version. 

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    i grew up in west humboldt park and K town. Yikes! We moved when I was 12, after my best friend saw 4 guys smoked in front of the building they lived in, and the play ground by our school became a gang banger paradise—with same friend when a car pulls up at that play ground and shotguns a guy to death.

    I was in Texas for the summer and when I returned home my mom had moved us.

    but nowadays you have the aclu consent decree to make the streets safe for murderers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I have a suspicion that I'd be less likely to be murdered in Baghdad than in Chicago.

    All a moot point anyway since I won't go near either place.
    You are right, ISIS loves Americans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You are right, ISIS loves Americans.
    If only they'd stuck to Square Taper...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You are right, ISIS loves Americans.
    As Le Duke could probably tell you, ISIS isn't present in Baghdad. FWIW, not much practical difference between ISIS and Chicago gangsters, you're just as dead either way.
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    Bike hijackers on trails

    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    As Le Duke could probably tell you, ISIS isn't present in Baghdad. FWIW, not much practical difference between ISIS and Chicago gangsters, you're just as dead either way.
    Ain’t never been to Baghdad. Heard it was nice until the invasion, though. OLD city. Lots of history there. I would’ve loved to have visited before the Iran-Iraq war. Same with Iran, actually.

    Most terrorist organizations are gang-like in nature. Think of a Chicago or NY street gang in the 1920s and you have a good picture. They do the same things. Extortion and protection, drug production and running, local government and police corruption, etc.

    In AFG, we feared the local police as much as the “Taliban” (there are dozens of orgs that are just as likely to shoot each other as Americans there). You never knew if one or the entire organization was corrupt. Right after I left, one policeman supposedly helped with a failed attempt to kill the provincial governor. Another police station we visited stopped selling weed to the “Taliban” and got whacked, to a man.


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  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    FWIW, not much practical difference between ISIS and Chicago gangsters, you're just as dead either way.
    ISIS would just make it more "interesting."
    "Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired"
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    Sure, but none of those were mountain bikers on trails so we'd be safe. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    Sure, but none of those were mountain bikers on trails so we'd be safe. Right?
    I think people stopped talking about bike-jackers on trails somewhere around page 4. Now it's just gun-life talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I think people stopped talking about bike-jackers on trails somewhere around page 4. Now it's just gun-life talk.
    Sure, but it never hurts to try and stay on topic. Just my rebellious nature perhaps. If only there were a website where people could talk about guns without the pesky mountain biking getting in the way.

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    Trying to hijack my trail machine would end very, very poorly for the hijackers. Don't start no shit, won't be no shit.

  70. #370
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    And now we seem to have come full circle. It's akin to finding the end of the internet.
    "The man was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. But instead of running home, he ran to second base."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I think people stopped talking about bike-jackers on trails somewhere around page 4. Now it's just gun-life talk.
    Huh? We’re still on page 4 Pilgrim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Huh? We’re still on page 4 Pilgrim.
    They might have the default page view still set on their control panel and thus may not have as many posts per page, so they could be on page 10 or more.
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    This one has a lot of legs left no one has mentioned explosive anti theft devices or impulse lasers yet.
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  74. #374
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    This is one of the reasons none of my bike have quick release seat post clamps. If you don't have a 35" inseam, you aren't riding my bike.
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  75. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Huh? We’re still on page 4 Pilgrim.
    I'm on page 8. Catch up, DJ!

    I case you want a synopsis: "I would kill until dead anyone who messes with me or my family!" Repeat.

  76. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    This is one of the reasons none of my bike have quick release seat post clamps. If you don't have a 35" inseam, you aren't riding my bike.
    Not unless I (or a thief) steal someone's dropper post and replace it with your post.

    The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    Not unless I (or a thief) steal someone's dropper post and replace it with your post.

    The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?
    It's never happened around here and I can't imagine that it would, but I have no clue as to what's going on in the OP's little corner of the mountain biking world. There are literally hundreds of mountain biking posts on this site from various parts of this country and others that describe situations that I simply can't relate to.

  78. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?
    I asked but he or she never answered where the incident happened. A couple of people said they carry a pistol sometimes with extra magazines in case shit goes down but they never said where they live either. I think it's safe to say that the chances of needing to blast my way out of trouble in Bend, OR is so low that it's not worth carrying the extra weight of a gun.
    Last edited by Nat; 08-08-2018 at 05:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WHALENARD View Post
    I'm thinking a small potato gun that can fire dog poo baggies. Kill two birds with turds as the saying goes. Free ammo everywhere.
    Police have those bean bag stun guns. Just use those poop bags in the right size. Might want to check bag strength though, unless your looking for that sawed off shotgun effect.

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    Good thing I ride in MA, I see hikers, kids, dogs, mt bikers everywhere. I even see bird watchers too. Never had any issue, ever. Or even a hint of bad intentions. I had a dog bark at me a few times, but the owner quickly called it close to him. I get maybe the jump from the bushed ambush thing, but even a short distance away, 99% could just pedal away from the perps? Oh wait, I had a bird watcher shuss me once. I got off the bike and she let me see baby owls through her spotting scope.
    Last edited by leeboh; 08-08-2018 at 03:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Good thing I ride in MA, I see hikers, kids, dogs, mt bikers everywhere. I even see bird watchers too. Never had any issue, ever. Or even a hint of bad intentions. I had a dog bark at me a few times, but the owner quickly called it close to him. I get maybe the jump from the bushed ambush thing, but even a short distance away, 99% could just pedal away form the perps? Oh wait, I had a bird watcher shuss me once. I got off the bike and she let me see baby owls through her spotting scope.
    The truth is that almost all trails are like this. A lot of my local trails are in urban areas, most of them in the hood. Hood rats don't generally go exploring through the forest for someone to rob or kill. Gun fanatics just like to pretend that every situation has the potential to become the wild west. I know this because I have a lot of friends who got the concealed carry license and all of the sudden their world went from mundane and generally safe to "things could pop off at any moment". Guys I grew up with who never thought twice about anything ever happening now all of the sudden have to be seated in a restaurant where they can see the exits and plan escape routes.

    It's a sickness. I used to consider myself a gun enthusiast, but after the 2008 Obama scare the gun community lost their collective minds. I can't even stand to be around these people anymore, everything is politicized and they think the world is coming for them. It's really weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    I'm on page 8. Catch up, DJ!

    I case you want a synopsis: "I would kill until dead anyone who messes with me or my family!" Repeat.
    Nope, still on page 4 on my end. Even after the 10 posts since our original apposing views.
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  83. #383
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    If someone wants to jack my bike they can have it. It's a single speed, so I'll probably just find it a couple hundred yards down the trail, abandoned off to the side at the first rocky hill they couldn't climb.
    "Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired"
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    if someone wants to jack my bike they can have it. It's a single speed, so i'll probably just find it a couple hundred yards down the trail, abandoned off to the side at the first rocky hill they couldn't climb.
    hahahahahahaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Good thing I ride in MA, I see hikers, kids, dogs, mt bikers everywhere. I even see bird watchers too. Never had any issue, ever. Or even a hint of bad intentions.
    Funny thing is, probably the sketchiest encounter I've ever had on a bike was in your 'hood (Harold Parker forest). This after many years of riding in and through a mid-sized city at all hours of the day and night and not doing much to avoid 'bad' areas or out of the way places where I got so see all sorts of denizens doing shady things. A couple of guys had set up for a day of drinking at a bridge with a few boxes of cheap beer and an aggressive dog. They physically blocked me from crossing the bridge and started what I took as a verbal 'feeling out' process to see how far they were going to push things with me. Both had a very distinctive ex-con/homeless flavor to them; I assume that they were probably living at the campground not too far away. After a few minutes of grilling, I ended being 'allowed' to pass. Probably the single time I really wished I was armed while riding. To this day, I'm sure if I was a female (or male who came across as an easy target), bad things would have happened. That's not a feeling I get a whole lot; I'm not exactly a shrinking violet or anything.
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  86. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    If someone wants to jack my bike they can have it. It's a single speed, so I'll probably just find it a couple hundred yards down the trail, abandoned off to the side at the first rocky hill they couldn't climb.
    NICE.

    This is good reason to ride the un-tuned POS that barely shifts, has screechy brakes and 7 psi divided by two tires. (Just a few of my bikes).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    The OP was just trolling, right? No one here legit thinks that bike hijacking on the trails is really happening, right?
    I dunno- It's a big world out there all the sudden.
    Just got back from a mini vacation and I witnessed a person helping a motorist change a tire and another person helping an elder cross a busy road.

    Never been so dang happy to get back home in my LIFE .
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    What I got from this so far is the only spot reported semi dangerous (where this shit might happen) is some where in N. E. parts, near a city. having come from Reno NV riding /hiking and camping on USFS land was norm. Lots of interesting folks but no trouble. Now 25 years in this metropolis referred to as South Florida, most of the great riding is in-the-middle of town. Never saw bike thieves on the trails, but this thread has popped into mind a couple of times while trying to make flow during last light in MarkhamPark. Lets all hope it stays simply a topic of conversation, with no real impact on our trail time.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    The truth is that almost all trails are like this. A lot of my local trails are in urban areas, most of them in the hood. Hood rats don't generally go exploring through the forest for someone to rob or kill. Gun fanatics just like to pretend that every situation has the potential to become the wild west. I know this because I have a lot of friends who got the concealed carry license and all of the sudden their world went from mundane and generally safe to "things could pop off at any moment". Guys I grew up with who never thought twice about anything ever happening now all of the sudden have to be seated in a restaurant where they can see the exits and plan escape routes.

    It's a sickness. I used to consider myself a gun enthusiast, but after the 2008 Obama scare the gun community lost their collective minds. I can't even stand to be around these people anymore, everything is politicized and they think the world is coming for them. It's really weird.
    The truth is that a defensive encounter is a low probability, high impact event. It's in the same class as a high speed car wreck, catastrophic home damage, or cancer diagnosis. For those we have seatbelts and airbags, homeowners insurance, and health insurance. I agree it's not good to be obsessed with self defense but carrying a pistol is not out of line with any of the other risk management strategies.

  90. #390
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    The sketchiest encounter I've ever had on a bike was when I met a paranoid 2nd Amendment type who had his gun out at the trailhead waving it around. This was in Northern Idaho near Hayden Lake back when the Aryan Nations compound was still there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    The sketchiest encounter I've ever had on a bike was when I met a paranoid 2nd Amendment type who had his gun out at the trailhead waving it around. This was in Northern Idaho near Hayden Lake back when the Aryan Nations compound was still there.

  92. #392
    Life's a Garden, dig it!
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    ^^^ So you're in a position to know what he experienced? Really?
    "The man was born on third and thinks he hit a triple. But instead of running home, he ran to second base."

  93. #393
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    That's pretty crazy.
    I like turtles

  94. #394
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    This is exactly why I carry a shark that shoot lasers out of its eyes in my hydration pack.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    This is exactly why I carry a shark that shoot lasers out of its eyes in my hydration pack.
    Damn, you must have the last of the production run. I had to settle for ill-tempered sea bass.
    "Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired"
    — Jonathan Swift

  96. #396
    Nat
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    ^^^ So you're in a position to know what he experienced? Really?
    Yeah! What does he know?

    I even wrote about it twelve years ago so I don't think I'll ever forget about it: Most afraid riding alone

  97. #397
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    I find it amusing how the story morphed from a crazy guy with a pistol to a general smear with the "2nd amendment type" comment.

  98. #398
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    But Hillary’s emails!

  99. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schulze View Post
    I find it amusing how the story morphed from a crazy guy with a pistol to a general smear with the "2nd amendment type" comment.

    I mean sketchy people with guns would be scary but we all know it ain't the gun.

    Over in CO and C Springs (quite representative of gun numbers) I've not had any such sketchy gun related encounter, yet I put gun numbers here beyond country per capita average and the sketchy population within some 'norm' or higher with our 600,000 citizens.

    Until quite recently, the available shooting areas in the 'woods' were numerous and mostly curtailed due to trashy leftovers and lack of responsible care and clean-up.
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  100. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I mean sketchy people with guns would be scary but we all know it ain't the gun.

    Over in CO and C Springs (quite representative of gun numbers) I've not had any such sketchy gun related encounter, yet I put gun numbers here beyond country per capita average and the sketchy population within some 'norm' or higher with our 600,000 citizens.

    Until quite recently, the available shooting areas in the 'woods' were numerous and mostly curtailed due to trashy leftovers and lack of responsible care and clean-up.
    Well, our NF does have almost twice as many firearm related incidents as the next closest NF.

    I’m really surprised there aren’t more people killed here each year. PFC Snuffy and his friends drive their 21.9% APR F250 up Gold Camp or Rampart Range or Mount Herman and start popping off with their Glock. And ignore what their platoon sergeant and first sergeant were trying to explain before their last day at the range.


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