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  1. #201
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    It's the same as it ever was. There are wolves, there are sheep, and there are sheepdogs. The sheep like to pretend that there are no wolves, and they resent the sheepdogs. Many of the sheep don't even want the sheepdog to fight the wolves. Their only strategy is to hope that the wolves attack someone else, and they refuse to believe that the only effective solution is to kill the wolves.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
    It's the same as it ever was. There are wolves, there are sheep, and there are sheepdogs. The sheep like to pretend that there are no wolves, and they resent the sheepdogs. Many of the sheep don't even want the sheepdog to fight the wolves. Their only strategy is to hope that the wolves attack someone else, and they refuse to believe that the only effective solution is to kill the wolves.
    Yup. Our society is being overrun by wolves because inexplicably, the trembling sheep are more afraid of the sheepdogs than they are the wolves. Things will continue to deteriorate until people get tired of being victims and stand up to crime.

    Regardless... I've been packing for decades. Have never even pulled my CCW (other than a pair of rottweilers running wild... but didn't shoot them). I live and recreate in griz, mountain lion, and grey wolf country. But two legged predators concern me far more. When hiking I carry my S&W 329PD .44 mag. But when mountain biking it's almost always just my cheap, light Kahr CW380 and a couple of spare mags (and bear spray when riding in griz territory). I leave my heavy pig Sig Sauer and Kimber 1911s home. I bought my Sig Tac Ops 10mm for possible bear duty, but it's too heavy and my two .44mags loaded with 305 grain hardcast are far more potent bear medicine anyways. As far as human threats go, my 380s give me plenty of peace of mind.

    I wish sheeple would stop being more scared of regular people who choose not to be victims than they are of humans with actual evil intentions. It's bizarre and frankly, it's a sign of the times we live in that millions of years of survival/preservation instinct seem to have been completely erased within a generation. The world is not a safe space. If you don't take responsibility for protecting yourself and your loved ones, who will??? The police? The courts established long ago that law enforcement bears no responsibility for actually protecting your life. Ask the victims of domestic violence how much protection the printed restraining order gave them. I don't pack a weapon to protect my bike. I pack because I can't read the mind and heart of someone who makes threats to me. My family can't afford for me to miscalculate on the intentions of wolves. And since I ride alone in remote areas, it's my responsibility to be able to protect myself there. But I'm always armed, so urban wolves will fair no better than country wolves.

  3. #203
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    P.S. As I type this from the comfort of my recliner on a Saturday night, my Kahr 380 sits next to me. That used to make my wife uncomfortable. She didn't understand why i always had a firearm within reach. And then a pair of 80 year old nuns in our city had their door kicked in by a couple of meth heads, who proceeded to hold them hostage and beat them for a few days. My wife is Catholic and has a soft spot for little, old ladies. That was the end of her innocence and she changed her POV. Wolves exist. Pulling the blanket over one's head won't make them go away.

  4. #204
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    wolves are another reason I have bear spray.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico. you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?
    How about you let me bear-spray you in the face first? That would be the most accurate way for you to determine this.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico.
    Not sure how you are measuring that.
    It can be tough to find credible information as lots of things are so politicized for agenda purposes - framed narratives, cherry picking stats etc...
    I've reviewed per captia stats for crime over the years just to see what gives for where I am versus where I grew up. That information is readily available by area, state, region or whatever scale you want to review but taken at face value in the general sense, there is probably a lot to be learned or interpreted by details not given. My residence is now among a growing population approaching 600,000 maybe close to 7 x greater than my home town in the upper Midwest. Looking at it when I moved here would be comparing stats in 1993. Since that time, how have trends here or there changed?
    Population growth or changes factored in?
    Jobs market / unemployed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?
    Some part of that may be underestimating but obviously, most people decide how comfortable they are owning or having weapons versus not and how safe they feel in their living area and traveling range. For some, the perceived threat level doesn't rise to their justification of owning or carrying firearms, others just don't believe in having them or feel up to the training and responsibility of owning and storing them.

    Bear spray isn't a bad example (other than bringing it to gun battle). Some cyclists carry it, some just have a noisy bell, other's carry or pack a gun and some do none of the above. Even if all ride the same area, their own risk level, comfort or convenience of having 'extras' or some other things factor into it.

    I like the fresh night air and sleeping with windows open even a crack can be a very risky situation on the ground floor or basement levels should an intruder be prowling to gain access to a home. The options for me in a two story home are lock up everything tight on the ground and basement levels and open up the windows on the 2nd story or go get them big prison bars for all my windows and leave the entire house open with less worry. We all mitigate risk with some reasoning, perception or threshold of comfort but it can be very personal, based on past experiences or the latest bear attacks in a given area.
    I chose to skip two ride areas most of this summer based on rattle snake bite victim news. More rides in other areas could have been greater exposure to bear threats for all I know though.
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    He not arguing for responsible CCW. He said he is anti CCW, because he is terrified of situations that have never happened.
    I get your point although I read between the lines at times and see the spirit of what is stated rather than the 'letter of the law'. Not speaking for SSSteven, yet in this case I think of many firearms enthusiast's who speak calm and sensible or offer good advice and other's who sound rattled, phobic or hoping for WWIII to start so they can Rambo Up.

    Certainly, there is lot of d-swinging talk and Big ego yapping going on that is probably just 'the guys' talking about how tough they are and taking out bad guys at 600 yards. Yet that distinction of mindset and attitude for grand-dad advice versus Quick-Trigger Tarantino can easily infer who is more responsible and level-headed on any given day not considering the tensity of a real threat in a public area with many bystanders clustered where one might become or try to be a CCW hero.

    I don't research things much anymore so I'll just go from my recollection and (Please) if anyone has others, more numerous or more recent examples, update that here with ref link or citation if possible;

    - I remember an armed citizen in a battle where his shooting caught an innocent by error quite a few years back.
    - Another when a 'good guy' shot at a truck or shot out the tire when a vehicle tried to get away. Maybe theft involved.
    - Another one similar that happened at a Home Depot.

    We don't need a lot of good guy with gun messes up stories to hit what is called "media" or "news" these days but so far, it seems the isolated whack-a-do's with CCW stories have yet to get a recent headline.
    When they do, it'll be NEWS ALERT for seven weeks.
    Last edited by bachman1961; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:26 AM.
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    the US is becoming dangerous as Mexico. you guys underestimate this criminals. what happens if they carry guns. are you going to bring bear spray to gun fight?
    The USA where the murder and violent crime rates are the lowest they have been since the 1960s?

    The USA where the number of cops killed by firearms in 2014 was the lowest number since the 1880s, with 5x the population?

  9. #209
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    Back to the original topic, has any of this armed robbery/rape/murder type stuff happened to mountain bikers out riding trails? When and where?

    The OP hasn't replied where his or her incident happened. I'd still like to know.

  10. #210
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    The key here for all if us as mountain bikers is to be vigilant and proactive in our safety. The other day I came across a hiking couple and i gave them a friendly 'hello'. While they appeared to be passive bird watchers you never can tell. So I clocked them both with a cast iron frying pan that I keep at the ready in my camelbak. And guess what? They didn't steal my bike.

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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    The key here for all if us as mountain bikers is to be vigilant and proactive in our safety. The other day I came across a hiking couple and i gave them a friendly 'hello'. While they appeared to be passive bird watchers you never can tell. So I clocked them both with a cast iron frying pan that I keep at the ready in my camelbak. And guess what? They didn't steal my bike.

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    I think the laugh is on you. Those kind of folks are hoping to get a good head bashing. I have little doubt they laughed all the way to neurosurgery that day !
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  12. #212
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    Rather than shoot would be robbers, wouldn't it be better to disarm them?

    A machete would do the job...
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Rather than shoot would be robbers, wouldn't it be better to disarm them?

    A machete would do the job...
    Going out on a limb there.
    “Weak men cannot handle power. It will either crush them, or they will use it to crush others.”
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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    Going out on a limb there.


    Maybe this chap has the right idea.

    I wooden try to steal a bike from him...


    Bike hijackers on trails-37638974_10214664716788884_8244579583148425216_o.jpg
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  15. #215
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    It's all pun and games until these last couple posts....

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post


    Maybe this chap has the right idea.

    I wooden try to steal a bike from him...


    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm kinda split on the placement of that axe.

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  17. #217
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    "sleeps all night and he works all day"

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by aborgman View Post
    The USA where the murder and violent crime rates are the lowest they have been since the 1960s?

    The USA where the number of cops killed by firearms in 2014 was the lowest number since the 1880s, with 5x the population?
    Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.

  19. #219
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    I just spent a week in DC, and it made me realize what a sheltered life I live in central North Carolina, even when I visit the biggest cities of Charlotte and Raleigh. We stayed in NE DC in a not so carefully chosen Airbnb, which during the day wasn't so bad, but at night walking back from the Metro we were greeted by several groups of individuals hanging out on the sidewalk smoking marijuana and who knows what else. We saw no less than 5 over doses with police and or fire involvement with three of them being in broad daylight. We actually called 911 on one of them while we were at the National Law Enforcement Memorial because the guy didn't move for about 20 minutes. The fire department was very professional in dealing with them, but the police were indifferent and didn't even walk over to where they were. According to the fire captain, they transported 185 patients over two days that had OD'd on a combo of K2, ketamine, and fentanyl among other things. I lost count of how many stripped bikes I saw poorly locked up, and I saw one lady walking her bike home with the front wheel missing and the most pissed off look I've ever seen on someone. For every affluent area of DC there is just as many or more depressed areas. It makes me feel sad and blessed at the same time.
    I wouldn't **** you, you're my favorite turd.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    wolves are another reason I have bear spray.
    Has any wolves chase after bikers?

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    wolves are another reason I have bear spray.


    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Has any wolves chase after bikers?
    He means protecting wolves from bear ….. DUH ?

    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Has any wolves chase after bikers?
    I’ve met a wolf on the trail. Was about 50’ away before I realized it wasn’t just a large wolf-looking dog.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Label View Post
    Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.
    Meaningless with out context and numbers. How many more people live there compared to before, how rates of violent crime, etc.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Label View Post
    Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.
    Violent crimes are up on your mountain bike trails? Where do you live?

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I’ve met a wolf on the trail. Was about 50’ away before I realized it wasn’t just a large wolf-looking dog.
    I met a woman walking a wolf-hybrid on a local trail. Got to about 50’ away before I realized it wasn’t a small horse -- that thing was MASSIVE.

    Impressive fuel economy, though.
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  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Meaningless with out context and numbers. How many more people live there compared to before, how rates of violent crime, etc.
    I trust that the message is things are getting worse in that area without calling out for stats or elaborate details BUT, context and specifics can be very enlightening. It's easy to challenge or look up if you know the area. I understand it may not be a trend nationally and other areas may be a safer trend or violent crime is down just as I understand the point or experience shared by askibum02 at #219.

    Since not many things go unchallenged these days and subject matter gets overly swamped with emotion, opinion, or sourced from 'media talking points', how about some of 'us' replacing general terms or statements with citations or links that show where we get these ideas or info?
    Factual numbers with some context or comparisons can go a long ways to drive down the declarative statements that are not backed up, yet called into question. We might have a more meaningful or friendly exchange with less 'slop' on some of this just as many forums I've seen or participated on have certain standards about these things for reasons of safety and derailing mis-information.
    In the Middle Ages, the biggest mistake was not putting on your armor because you were 'just going down to the corner.'

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Label View Post
    Violent drug crimes are up significantly in my area these past few years. I work and interact daily with the 200 members of the local PD, including the police chief, who I've known for 23 years. Things aren't all fun and games out there. One must be vigilant at all times. Too many "civilized" people go through their lives in condition white.
    Up significantly over the last couple years, but still significantly lower than the 70s/80s/90s? With a significantly increased population?

  28. #228
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    As soon as someone says the words “sheep”, “sheepdog”, “wolves” or the king of them all, “sheeple”, I just can’t take them seriously anymore.

    Come on.


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    Death from Below.

  29. #229
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    I was viciously attacked on my ride today. I tried minimum force at first but in the end had to resort to deadly force. At least that horsefly will never bother anyone again.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    As soon as someone says the words “sheep”, “sheepdog”, “wolves” or the king of them all, “sheeple”, I just can’t take them seriously anymore.

    Come on.
    Sheep are the hidden threat.


  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    As soon as someone says the words “sheep”, “sheepdog”, “wolves” or the king of them all, “sheeple”, I just can’t take them seriously anymore.

    Come on.


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    Its right up there with "How many kilometers have you walked in country? "

  32. #232
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    The only times I've felt threatened on the trails is from aggressive dogs, never people. I'd actually rather face a person trying to rob me than an angry pitbull with no owner in sight. This has happened twice recently to me, just last weekend I was riding in the high country in the trees and a huge dog comes running at me, I had to use my bike for protection for a good 2 minutes until the dumb owner showed up. I don't think I'll ever bring any firearms with me but will look into a small pepper spray, should do the job for a dog or a dumb tweeker lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    some weird crazed desert dweller.

  34. #234
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    He's lumberjack...

    Quote Originally Posted by MOJO K View Post
    "sleeps all night and he works all day"
    and he's okay!

    Just wanted you to know someone remembers MP.
    Veni vidi velo!

  35. #235
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    Bike hijackers on trails

    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    Its right up there with "How many kilometers have you walked in country? "
    Here’s the difference.

    I was sent there by the United States government, after the Senate voted to approve a request sending us there. People who were elected by the voters of their respective states. I don’t claim what I did there was right, wrong, good or bad. People are entitled to think and say what they want about it.

    The “sheepdogs” are self-appointed would-be purveyors of “justice”. They think they are automatically doing something to be applauded, when the truth is a bit murkier than that.

    Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren’t much better than a terrorist.


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  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    As soon as someone says the words “sheep”, “sheepdog”, “wolves” or the king of them all, “sheeple”, I just can’t take them seriously anymore.

    Come on.


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    Must agree....

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    Its right up there with "How many kilometers have you walked in country? "
    Must agree...

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Who carries extra magazines?
    The Dentist Office.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  39. #239
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    Bike hijackers on trails-101da592-a703-4d02-b791-cc55668d9f91.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    The Dentist Office.
    Old expired “extra magazines”.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Old expired “extra magazines”.
    Well, you gotta know your audience.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forster View Post
    Well, you gotta know your audience.
    It brought to mind something recently. My elderly dad is on driving restriction so I've been running him to different appointments. One of his humorous routines is when we enter a doctor, dentist or haircut appointment his first comment after checking in is, “alright let’s sit down and read some expired old magazines”. LOL He makes sure to say it loud enough that the receptionist and others close by hear it. Some get a good laugh but at one appointment last week I caught the receptionist giving a disgusted look. LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by noapathy View Post
    Sheep are the hidden threat.
    Yup, they are without mercy:


    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post

    The “sheepdogs” are self-appointed would-be purveyors of “justice”. They think they are automatically doing something to be applauded, when the truth is a bit murkier than that.

    Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren’t much better than a terrorist.


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    So if I defend myself during an armed robbery, then in your world I'm a terrorist? FYI, there are people in my area who complied 100 percent with an armed person demanding money, etc, and they were still shot. One was running away after giving up wallet and phone. The other was standing behind the convenience store counter, murdered after handing over all the money. And yet, some people who live in the area advocate for the dissolution of the police department.

    If a person expresses to me a desire to own a bike, and the genuineness of his appeal to me seems true, I will give him a bike. In fact, I did exactly that some months ago for a guy I'd just met while on my ride one day. It wasn't a beat up hand me down. It was a NOS entry level Trek hybrid.

    OTOH, if a person demands my bike
    and threatens my life with a weapon, I'm disinclined to cooperate and will resist in whatever manner seems appropriate, because acquiescence does not guarantee my safety. I'm not a self appointed purveyor of anything. I'm simply taking responsibility for my own safety. The sheep, sheepdog and wolves allegory simply defines three different types of personalities. The official sheepdogs in our society are the police and the military. Unfortunately, the police can't be everywhere and prevent all crime. Individuals may choose to defend themselves, or not.

    You can think what you like. I have a philosophy that allows me to coexist with others that believe differently. I wish others would adopt this philosophy. It's called "Who Cares What You Think?" These days, if someone doesn't like what someone else thinks, then name calling ensues. I get indirectly called "no better than a terrorist" because I advocate standing up to criminals.

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    I understand defending yourself.

    I don’t understand shooting someone over a possession.

    Yes, I realize the two are interrelated. If someone draws down on you and you’re armed, you are entitled (obligated) to defend yourself. I’d do the same thing.

    But, if some asshole knocks me off my bike riding down the street, gets on it and pedals away, no, I’m not going to put two in his back. I’d hope most people would understand that, in that scenario, they are not judge, jury and executioner.

    I realize the law is different across the states as it pertains to defense of property. But, if people believe in the rule of law, taking it into their own hands is more than a bit hypocritical.




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  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
    So if I defend myself during an armed robbery, then in your world I'm a terrorist? FYI, there are people in my area who complied 100 percent with an armed person demanding money, etc, and they were still shot. One was running away after giving up wallet and phone. The other was standing behind the convenience store counter, murdered after handing over all the money. And yet, some people who live in the area advocate for the dissolution of the police department.

    If a person expresses to me a desire to own a bike, and the genuineness of his appeal to me seems true, I will give him a bike. In fact, I did exactly that some months ago for a guy I'd just met while on my ride one day. It wasn't a beat up hand me down. It was a NOS entry level Trek hybrid.

    OTOH, if a person demands my bike
    and threatens my life with a weapon, I'm disinclined to cooperate and will resist in whatever manner seems appropriate, because acquiescence does not guarantee my safety. I'm not a self appointed purveyor of anything. I'm simply taking responsibility for my own safety. The sheep, sheepdog and wolves allegory simply defines three different types of personalities. The official sheepdogs in our society are the police and the military. Unfortunately, the police can't be everywhere and prevent all crime. Individuals may choose to defend themselves, or not.

    You can think what you like. I have a philosophy that allows me to coexist with others that believe differently. I wish others would adopt this philosophy. It's called "Who Cares What You Think?" These days, if someone doesn't like what someone else thinks, then name calling ensues. I get indirectly called "no better than a terrorist" because I advocate standing up to criminals.
    The "Die Hard" complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I understand defending yourself.

    I don’t understand shooting someone over a possession.

    Yes, I realize the two are interrelated. If someone draws down on you and you’re armed, you are entitled (obligated) to defend yourself. I’d do the same thing.

    But, if some asshole knocks me off my bike riding down the street, gets on it and pedals away, no, I’m not going to put two in his back. I’d hope most people would understand that, in that scenario, they are not judge, jury and executioner.

    I realize the law is different across the states as it pertains to defense of property. But, if people believe in the rule of law, taking it into their own hands is more than a bit hypocritical.




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    At least in most midwest states the law is pretty specific. You can use lethal force (which includes the act of pointing a knife or firearm) to defend against murder, serious bodily harm (broken bone), kidnapping or rape of yourself or another. I've watched some seemingly cut and dry cases go to trial and run up $20-$40K attorney bills. Even the guy who shot an armed man at Walgreens (decedent was robbing the place with a pump shotgun) who didn't get charged ended up with a couple thousand dollar bill. I'm not saying you can't find justification, I'm just saying that you want to think really hard before you commit to that action.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadGrandpa View Post
    So if I defend myself during an armed robbery, then in your world I'm a terrorist?
    I don't recall anyone anywhere in this thread proposing that you don't have the right to defend yourself with whatever means happen to be at your disposal, including lethal force, if you reasonably perceive that your life is in danger. Certainly that would be true if the proposed miscreant was armed, but might also include the situation where he/she was larger than you or if there was more than one of them. In that circumstance...fire away. I would. On the other hand, a guy grabs your bike while you're taking a leak, or knocks you off it, hops on and scoots away while you're trying to get your gun out of your camelback...you're not in danger anymore as he's pedaling down the trail on his new bike. You can't shoot him.

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    I don't recall anyone anywhere in this thread proposing that you don't have the right to defend yourself with whatever means happen to be at your disposal, including lethal force, if you reasonably perceive that your life is in danger. Certainly that would be true if the proposed miscreant was armed, but might also include the situation where he/she was larger than you or if there was more than one of them. In that circumstance...fire away. I would. On the other hand, a guy grabs your bike while you're taking a leak, or knocks you off it, hops on and scoots away while you're trying to get your gun out of your camelback...you're not in danger anymore as he's pedaling down the trail on his new bike. You can't shoot him.
    Nobody is saying that they would do this either.
    The problem is people like Le Duke makes inflammatory statements like "
    Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren’t much better than a terrorist." Since he has to walk back his statements after being called out on them, he is either a troll or can't control his outbursts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    Nobody is saying that they would do this either.
    The problem is people like Le Duke makes inflammatory statements like "
    Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren’t much better than a terrorist." Since he has to walk back his statements after being called out on them, he is either a troll or can't control his outbursts
    I’m not walking that statement back. Clarifying my opinion is not taking something back.

    If you murder* someone over a BICYCLE, you are a pretty shitty human being.

    *Yes, you could be tried and convicted for murder in most states for using lethal force to defend a possession when not in any mortal danger yourself.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I’m not walking that statement back. Clarifying my opinion is not taking something back.

    If you murder someone over a BICYCLE, you are a pretty shitty human being.


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    Well murdering someone for any reason makes you a shitty human being. But that's not what you originally said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    Well murdering someone for any reason makes you a shitty human being. But that's not what you originally said.
    A murderer and a murderer. Regardless of their motivation, they are still the same thing.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    A murderer and a murderer. Regardless of their motivation, they are still the same thing.




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    No, not at all. That's why there are different degrees of it in the legal system.

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  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, not at all. That's why there are different degrees of it in the legal system.

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    Since when has our legal system made any sense?
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  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Since when has our legal system made any sense?
    In this it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    In this it does.

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    Not necessarily, but that’s a whole other can of worms.
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No, not at all. That's why there are different degrees of it in the legal system.

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    I get that.

    But at the end of the day, when the jury went through the charges, they’d list a charge with murder at the end of it, and you’d be guilty. And your rap sheet would still have the word “murder” on it.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I get that.

    But at the end of the day, when the jury went through the charges, they’d list a charge with murder at the end of it, and you’d be guilty. And your rap sheet would still have the word “murder” on it.




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    Yes, but what degree it is listed as significantly impacts how the rest of one's life post incarceration, if there is a post, is lived. The guy who killed the man who was in bed with his wife will be treated differently than the guy was grossly negligent in a wreck than the guy stalked his victims for weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    Not necessarily, but that’s a whole other can of worms.
    It absolutely does. The three scenarios I mentioned above have vastly different recidivism rates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    Nobody is saying that they would do this either.
    The problem is people like Le Duke makes inflammatory statements like "
    Newsflash: You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren’t much better than a terrorist." Since he has to walk back his statements after being called out on them, he is either a troll or can't control his outbursts
    Sure they are. I was referring to the posts like this one...



    Unlike the police, there are no constitutional constraints on my use of deadly force. I'm not going to sit around and try to decide how immediate the threat is. The law of self defense requires no such assessment under these circumstances.

    A person who is trying to steal my bike from my person is committing a crime against my person, not just my bike. I have insurance for the bike and I don't give a rat's ass about the bike. But I'm not going to give someone an opportunity to use violence against me for a piece of property, either. That absolutely is not happening while I have the means to resist.
    I'm assuming that LeDuke is making a distinction between defending his life and defending his bicycle.

    I'm a pretty reasonable guy with some level of ability to accurately assess my personal level of threat exposure in a given situation. If I thought my life was in danger, I'd defend myself, and decisively, but if letting the guy have my bike would spare me the effort of killing him, that's a preferable route. I admit...I would be inclined to err on the side of caution in such a situation. I wouldn't take a chance on giving up any advantage if I perceived such a risk.

  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Sure they are. I was referring to the posts like this one...





    I'm a pretty reasonable guy with some level of ability to accurately assess my personal level of threat exposure in a given situation. If I thought my life was in danger, I'd defend myself, and decisively, but if letting the guy have my bike would spare me the effort of killing him, that's a preferable route. I admit...I would be inclined to err on the side of caution in such a situation. I wouldn't take a chance on giving up any advantage if I perceived such a risk.
    I agree with what you're saying. If the guy says give me that bike, knocks you down, hops on the bike and pedals like mad to get away there is no need. The laws that have property protection as an immunity clause are double edged swords. They open up the possibility of a vigilante much more but they also offer great protection. If the guy above knocks you down and menaces over you you have a right to be fearful. In that instance property protection laws protect you from the thousands of dollars you'd spend justifying that fear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducman View Post
    Well murdering someone for any reason makes you a shitty human being. But that's not what you originally said.

    Yeah.. it really is:

    "You put someone down over a bicycle, you aren’t much better than a terrorist."

    If you're defending yourself - you're putting someone down over your life.

    If you put someone down over a bike - you aren't defending yourself, you're defending your bike.

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuyuna View Post
    Sure they are. I was referring to the posts like this one...





    I'm assuming that LeDuke is making a distinction between defending his life and defending his bicycle.

    I'm a pretty reasonable guy with some level of ability to accurately assess my personal level of threat exposure in a given situation. If I thought my life was in danger, I'd defend myself, and decisively, but if letting the guy have my bike would spare me the effort of killing him, that's a preferable route. I admit...I would be inclined to err on the side of caution in such a situation. I wouldn't take a chance on giving up any advantage if I perceived such a risk.
    You are correct.


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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    The guy who killed the man who was in bed with his wife
    2nd degree murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    will be treated differently than the guy was grossly negligent in a wreck
    Not murder. Negligent homicide or manslaughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    than the guy stalked his victims for weeks.
    1st degree murder.

    Murder requires malice aforethought - whether that premeditated (1st degree) or intentional murder without premeditation, but with malice aforethought (2nd degree).




    It absolutely does. The three scenarios I mentioned above have vastly different recidivism rates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Yes, but what degree it is listed as significantly impacts how the rest of one's life post incarceration, if there is a post, is lived. The guy who killed the man who was in bed with his wife will be treated differently than the guy was grossly negligent in a wreck than the guy stalked his victims for weeks.



    It absolutely does. The three scenarios I mentioned above have vastly different recidivism rates.

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    I get that there are differences in the stages and because of that there are differences in the penalty. But who’s to say the penalties are written fairly from one scenario to the other. I agree that the scenarios should be viewed differently and the penalties should be different. It’s the penalty phase I have an issue with. Some get a slap on the wrist and sent home, others get life depending on the scenario.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    I get that there are differences in the stages and because of that there are differences in the penalty. But who’s to say the penalties are written fairly from one scenario to the other. I agree that the scenarios should be viewed differently and the penalties should be different. It’s the penalty phase I have an issue with. Some get a slap on the wrist and sent home, others get life depending on the scenario.
    A lot of that has to do with recidivism. Are some people unfairly caught up in it for any number of reasons, absolutely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    A lot of that has to do with recidivism. Are some people unfairly caught up in it for any number of reasons, absolutely.

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    True
    Quote Originally Posted by mileslong View Post
    I passionately remove rocks and corners and other stuff I find too hard to ride.

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    One time on my sretch if traips there was a spree of people putting barb wire in the trails. I font know why but it got me and others very angry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSteven View Post
    This is precisely why I am a former sidearm carrier turned anti-CC laws. I was in the first group of people to get their concealed carry license in my state when it was legalized, and it makes me extremely uncomfortable the amount of people I know with their CC license who don't take the responsibility of carrying a gun seriously. I can't count how many times I have heard people make offhand comments about just shooting someone for any discomfort they may feel, or being completely unrealistic about how a situation may go down if they actually had to pull their gun.

    Honestly, I would have been better off NOT going through the class and finding out from experience the mental weight of carrying a firearm. It terrifies me that just about anyone with no serious criminal record could potentially carry a gun into the woods and start ripping off wild shots at someone who they think is a bike thief. Same for anywhere else; restaurants, Target, etc. I have been to the shooting range enough times to know that if a criminal starts mowing people down in public, 99.9% of the population (even if they have a CC permit) have no business trying to equalize the situation.
    Amen brother - couldn't have said it better. I grew up around guns my entire life, family and family friends. None of which carry regularly outside of remote camping/hiking due to animal threats. None of which would ever engage over property. None of which brandish to intimidate.

    All of which think the gun 'culture' that is promoted now is nothing short of a massive danger to society.

    I had (2) close relatives in the same situation as you, took the CCW class and decided NOT to carry because of it.....too much liability, too much risk.

    Of the few folks I know now that carry and have assault weapons, none of them grew up around guns and frankly don't know &$*% about them - the last people we need 'shooting' criminals.

  68. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    One of his humorous routines is when we enter a doctor, dentist or haircut appointment his first comment after checking in is, “alright let’s sit down and read some expired old magazines”.
    I'm wondering if he secretly enjoys this finding some so old they pre-date Fake News !!
    Not a bad byproduct of old days journalism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I understand defending yourself.

    I don’t understand shooting someone over a possession.

    Yes, I realize the two are interrelated. If someone draws down on you and you’re armed, you are entitled (obligated) to defend yourself. I’d do the same thing.

    But, if some asshole knocks me off my bike riding down the street, gets on it and pedals away, no, I’m not going to put two in his back. I’d hope most people would understand that, in that scenario, they are not judge, jury and executioner.

    I realize the law is different across the states as it pertains to defense of property. But, if people believe in the rule of law, taking it into their own hands is more than a bit hypocritical.




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    I think I could control my rage or emotions in that bold highlight. That IMO, is what it comes down to.

    Here in C.S. years ago at a big house party, the resident was fast asleep later in the night after party when some people came back and beat him down accusing him of stealing something maybe a girlfriends purse.... anyways they clocked him good with brass knuckles. He couldn't get to his firearm fast enough to protect himself or ward off the the attack but was just fast enough to get to his front porch and fired a round/rounds into the fleeing vehicle. He killed the driver / attacker. He was not punished criminally but later endured and I believe lost a civil suit. It sure seemed like the jury was pretty forgiving on the action since the threat was gone and legally, I don't understand the thinking since it was essentially pay-back.
    I don't recall the details enough now but maybe there was a defense claiming Mr Brass Knuckles would threatened to be back for more at another time.
    Last edited by bachman1961; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:20 AM.
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  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I think I could control my rage or emotions in that bold highlight. That IMO, is what is comes down to.

    Here in C.S. years ago at a big house party, the resident was fast asleep later in the night after party when some people came back and beat him down accusing him of stealing something maybe a girlfriends purse.... anyways they clocked him good with brass knuckles. He couldn't get to his firearm fast enough to protect himself or ward off the the attack but was just fast enough to get to his front porch and fired a round/rounds into the fleeing vehicle. He killed the driver / attacker. He was not punished criminally but later endured and I believe lost a civil suit. It sure seemed like the jury was pretty forgiving on the action since the threat was gone and legally, I don't understand the thinking since it was essentially pay-back.
    I don't recall the details enough now but maybe there was a defense claiming Mr Brass Knuckles would threatened to be back for more at another time.
    The thing that gets me is this:

    Once that example is set, how much time can elapse before you aren’t legally allowed to shoot someone?

    Can someone gun down a person that threatened them the previous day? Last week? Their high school bully, 20 years later?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    The thing that gets me is this:

    Once that example is set, how much time can elapse before you aren’t legally allowed to shoot someone?

    Can someone gun down a person that threatened them the previous day? Last week? Their high school bully, 20 years later?


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    Exactly. It sets a precedence there is no line in the sand.
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    well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE View Post
    It’s not kosher without saying it like this, Lonnnnn ga Island.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.
    Machine guns! Tommy guns too, I’ve read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I think I could control my rage or emotions in that bold highlight. That IMO, is what is comes down to.

    Here in C.S. years ago at a big house party, the resident was fast asleep later in the night after party when some people came back and beat him down accusing him of stealing something maybe a girlfriends purse.... anyways they clocked him good with brass knuckles. He couldn't get to his firearm fast enough to protect himself or ward off the the attack but was just fast enough to get to his front porch and fired a round/rounds into the fleeing vehicle. He killed the driver / attacker. He was not punished criminally but later endured and I believe lost a civil suit. It sure seemed like the jury was pretty forgiving on the action since the threat was gone and legally, I don't understand the thinking since it was essentially pay-back.
    I don't recall the details enough now but maybe there was a defense claiming Mr Brass Knuckles would threatened to be back for more at another time.
    Interesting case.... here is a little more detail
    https://www.denverpost.com/2005/12/1...ty-in-slaying/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.
    The decision on when and how to use it is what really counts.

    Knowing the law and the local temperament helps too but if you hang your hat on recent crime sprees locally and thinking local jurists will be extra tolerant in the case of lethal force, it may very well fall to the letter of the law and you'd be wise to act accordingly.

    When that house tenant beat-down occurred, we'd been through a few year cycle of some " justified shootin' " in the headlines frequently. Deadly road rage dual along side the highway, two trucks pull off to the side, one guy shoots first the other takes cover behind the door and fires the lethal shot.
    80-some year old lady gets her door kicked in, shoots and kills the intruder. Hits him 5 times. He'd been randomly breaking into homes assaulting women and robbing the property.

    In those days, I'll admit I was loving the reputation this area was getting. I can't speak to crime rate, it may have not been remarkable for the population here but I sure liked the idea that the shooting wasn't sloppy or ill advised.
    Maybe it isn't necessarily a big deterrent but anything justified is Shoot To Stop and it was happening for the betterment of our town.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Fat View Post
    Interesting case.... here is a little more detail
    https://www.denverpost.com/2005/12/1...ty-in-slaying/
    Thank you for the search.
    I hope my purposeful vague summary was the general gist of it.
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  78. #278
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    So wait, was the defendant (shooter) actually beaten or not? The article says the prosecution said he wasn't.
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  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    well, there are alot of Americans pack hand gun or machine guns. This is nothing new about it.




    Yep, pack an UZI on my road bike.
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  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    So wait, was the defendant (shooter) actually beaten or not? The article says the prosecution said he wasn't.
    The "facts" change depending on what article you read about the case. But this was the only one that quoted the prosecutor stating that.

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    Back to the original topic, has any of this armed robbery/rape/murder type stuff happened to mountain bikers out riding trails? When and where?

    The OP hasn't replied where his or her incident happened. I'd still like to know.
    I once had to pull on two dudes in the Backcountry. Not mountain biking but my friend and I were on horseback.

    Here's what happened, in a nutshell. My friend and I rode from Big Bear to some hot springs NW of town. We stopped for lunch and a soak.

    Two guys showed up. They both had shaved heads and large swastikas on the stomachs. They started breaking Budweiser bottles on rocks above the main swim area. One of the old hippies that frequents the spot questioned them. They told him they were going to kill him. While he was talking to them, he was sitting Indian style. Behind him was one of the guys with a raised bowling ball sized rock ready to bludgeon the hippy.

    I already had my hand in my pack. Once the guy got into a stance to crush the hippies head , I stood up ad and aimed at the guy's head and told him if he dropped the rock on the hippies head, I was dropping him. I was committed to killing both of them based on their behavior. They came to their senses when I reminded them they were miles from phone service.

    They left within ten minutes to hike out before dark.. My friend was also carrying and did nothing. I learned right there he wasn't a sheep dog.

    This was around 15 years ago.
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  82. #282
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    I've started carrying bear spray. Yes, there are bears on my trails, but also homeless whacks living along bike paths and in the National Forest. I figure it might give me 30 seconds to get out of there.

    There was a mountain biker murdered SW of Denver/NW of Colorado Springs last year. No suspects, but the area is plagued with homeless camps. These aren't warm fuzzy drunks, they are hardcore transients taking advantage of society in every way they can.

  83. #283
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    No bears in my trails (mountain lions, though), and not too many trails venture through areas of sketchy human activity.

    That said, several trail networks skirt rural areas where dogs run free, including "pit bull" breeds. Fortunately, in my only 2 encounters with such dogs, they were sweethearts. I rescued one of them that was clearly abandoned in a fairly remote location; she wouldn't leave my side as I was loading up the car and kept forcing her way into the car whenever I opened a door. I have yet to run into a pack of dogs (any breed) but I think that would be my primary motivation for carrying pepper / bear spray in my area.

    Then there's this: Rescuers get robbed at gunpoint trying to help dehydrated PCT hiker. Middle of the freaking Mojave desert and 110F. I just hiked that section this year and thought about this story quite a bit when preparing, but ultimately didn't carry any pepper spray because we "hiked with the herd" (dozens of through-hikers) and figured the risk of such an encounter was pretty low.
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  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by the one ring View Post
    No bears in my trails (mountain lions, though), and not too many trails venture through areas of sketchy human activity.

    That said, several trail networks skirt rural areas where dogs run free, including "pit bull" breeds. Fortunately, in my only 2 encounters with such dogs, they were sweethearts. I rescued one of them that was clearly abandoned in a fairly remote location; she wouldn't leave my side as I was loading up the car and kept forcing her way into the car whenever I opened a door. I have yet to run into a pack of dogs (any breed) but I think that would be my primary motivation for carrying pepper / bear spray in my area.

    Then there's this: Rescuers get robbed at gunpoint trying to help dehydrated PCT hiker. Middle of the freaking Mojave desert and 110F. I just hiked that section this year and thought about this story quite a bit when preparing, but ultimately didn't carry any pepper spray because we "hiked with the herd" (dozens of through-hikers) and figured the risk of such an encounter was pretty low.
    The title of that article is a bit misleading. (2) of the rescuers got lost, went down the wrong trail into a remote area came up on some dudes (likely) doing some unsavory stuff in an area nobody was expected to be. I know drugs are a bit problem there. They were passively 'robbed' so the bad dudes had time to gather their stuff and get the hell out, rather than being robbed of their wallets and valuables.

    Hiking on the actual PCT itself, with the expected traffic, I'd have 0 worries.

    I thought for sure the guy that called in the rescue was the one that robbed them and/or it was a set up.

    Hope those guys got caught.

    *Edit - not to mention, a weapon and/or pepper spray would have likely made the situation MUCH worse. If those guys saw a handgun or were threatened, who knows how it would have ended up. They likely have much less to lose than most of us.

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArizRider View Post
    The title of that article is a bit misleading. (2) of the rescuers got lost, went down the wrong trail into a remote area came up on some dudes (likely) doing some unsavory stuff in an area nobody was expected to be. I know drugs are a bit problem there. They were passively 'robbed' so the bad dudes had time to gather their stuff and get the hell out, rather than being robbed of their wallets and valuables.

    Hiking on the actual PCT itself, with the expected traffic, I'd have 0 worries.

    I thought for sure the guy that called in the rescue was the one that robbed them and/or it was a set up.

    Hope those guys got caught.

    *Edit - not to mention, a weapon and/or pepper spray would have likely made the situation MUCH worse. If those guys saw a handgun or were threatened, who knows how it would have ended up. They likely have much less to lose than most of us.
    If I were a volunteer rescuer I'd probably just stay home rather than go out to that area again.

    On another unpredictable note, I saw a news story of a man from this area, DC, who was killed during an armed robbery in Atlanta. The victim was with his wife and friends or other family and leaving either a club or restaurant. They called Uber and instead another car pulled up and they were all robbed at gunpoint. It is reported that the victim approached the killer and asked him if he was sure if he wanted to do this, and the killer then asked him if he wanted to die over this--andthen killed him.

    Not sure how the 17 year old killer managed to do that?

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  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I once had to pull on two dudes in the Backcountry. Not mountain biking but my friend and I were on horseback.

    Here's what happened, in a nutshell. My friend and I rode from Big Bear to some hot springs NW of town. We stopped for lunch and a soak.

    Two guys showed up. They both had shaved heads and large swastikas on the stomachs. They started breaking Budweiser bottles on rocks above the main swim area. One of the old hippies that frequents the spot questioned them. They told him they were going to kill him. While he was talking to them, he was sitting Indian style. Behind him was one of the guys with a raised bowling ball sized rock ready to bludgeon the hippy.

    I already had my hand in my pack. Once the guy got into a stance to crush the hippies head , I stood up ad and aimed at the guy's head and told him if he dropped the rock on the hippies head, I was dropping him. I was committed to killing both of them based on their behavior. They came to their senses when I reminded them they were miles from phone service.

    They left within ten minutes to hike out before dark.. My friend was also carrying and did nothing. I learned right there he wasn't a sheep dog.

    This was around 15 years ago.
    This is exactly the reason you guys should carry a gun. The US is full of crazy people.

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  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    The US is full of crazy people.



    Nah, the U.S. ranks behind Austria, Switzerland, Finland and Bahrain in time lost for being batshit crazy.
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  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Nah, the U.S. ranks behind Austria, Switzerland, Finland and Bahrain in time lost for being batshit crazy.
    Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.

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  89. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.

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    Bullshit, you better start checking your "facts".
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  90. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    America is unique in the world as having crazy people.
    Have you never been exposed to anything outside of your basement other than this website over the entire course of your life?

    You might try paying better attention.

    Or any attention for that matter.
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  91. #291
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    I was living in Asia as a kid. There was no shooting of school kids at schools. My uncles serve in military during the Vietnam War and they certainly did not hear about kids or seen shooting at schools. My uncles served marines and special forces.

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  92. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.

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    Switzerland has a lot of guns and low crime because of mandatory conscription. Those who have a gun have served in the military and are extensively trained. There's also only 8.5 million people there.

    The US has regular shootings because we have 300,000,000 guns floating around. No other country has a presence of guns like that. There are far fewer school shooting in most other countries because gun ownership is rare elsewhere. Gun culture is uniquely American; its deep in our history and way of life, like it or not.

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  93. #293
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  94. #294
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    In timely news we have a “sheepdog” defending our handicapped parking spaces:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews...%3fid=56751894

  95. #295
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    The Swiss get to keep their military weapons at home, but not ammunition for them. Ammunition may be purchased at a shooting range but must be used there (and is actually subsidized by the government).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_la...nd?wprov=sfla1

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    Is anyone familiar with drop safety tests that are performed on modern firearms?
    Do they really approximate the conditions that could occur in a mtb crash?
    Landing on your gun is gonna hurt, but having it go "bang" ...


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  97. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nat View Post
    In timely news we have a “sheepdog” defending our handicapped parking spaces:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews...%3fid=56751894
    Ahhh, the Steve Martin approach to solving crime. Death penalty for parking violations.
    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

  98. #298
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    Doing the laundry is scary enough. I don't know how you guys go outside on a regular basis.

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  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Ahhh, the Steve Martin approach to solving crime. Death penalty for parking violations.
    not really what happened here. He didn't shoot anyone in the car nor the person he was arguing with. The victim turned a verbal confrontation into a physical one, then the shooter turned it into a deadly one. Morally, it I think it was a bad shoot, but turns out a legal one in FL. A situation where asshole collide. Many opportunities to deescalate on both side.

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picard View Post
    Europeans tend to have even temper in general. They don't go shooting kids I schools. Switzerland has a lot of assault rifles but there is zero school shooting like the US. America is unique in the world as having crazy people. These crimes are committed by wealthy Middle class American kids . For example, there is virtually no school shooting in Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan.

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    There was zero research preformed for this post.


    You get zero response.
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