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  1. #101
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    Manufacturing jobs are high wage and innovators will stop coming to California for a greener business pastures. I would remind you that Michigan at one time was the hub of technology and manufacturing, look at it now. California is headed down a worse path. It's already happening. You can rationalize NC any way you want but the facts are they survived the recession rather well.

    California invented a lot of things, my generation lays claim to a good chunk of it, but what has happened out there recently? Not a whole lot. The last great thing to come out of silicon valley was the ipad. Jobs is dead and now Apple starts its slow decline to mediocrity as has been the case with most valley companies when their driving visionary is gone. I love California, it's just not the land to prosper it was only a few years ago and I don't see it happening again. The citizens are busy building a welfare state instead of figuring out how to maintain prosperity. I know I'm not going back because they want too much of my family's hard earned money, I think this is true for a lot of people. And I don't think prosperity will head back to the state until they figure out how to manufacture in the state profitably again. I am not aware of a broad robust economic recovery where manufacturing did not drive it, excepting a few exploitations of natural resources. Something you can't do in California either.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Manufacturing jobs are high wage and innovators will stop coming to California for a greener business pastures. I would remind you that Michigan at one time was the hub of technology and manufacturing, look at it now. California is headed down a worse path. It's already happening. You can rationalize NC any way you want but the facts are they survived the recession rather well.

    California invented a lot of things, my generation lays claim to a good chunk of it, but what has happened out there recently? Not a whole lot. The last great thing to come out of silicon valley was the ipad. Jobs is dead and now Apple starts its slow decline to mediocrity as has been the case with most valley companies when their driving visionary is gone. I love California, it's just not the land to prosper it was only a few years ago and I don't see it happening again. The citizens are busy building a welfare state instead of figuring out how to maintain prosperity. I know I'm not going back because they want too much of my family's hard earned money, I think this is true for a lot of people. And I don't think prosperity will head back to the state until they figure out how to manufacture in the state profitably again. I am not aware of a broad robust economic recovery where manufacturing did not drive it, excepting a few exploitations of natural resources. Something you can't do in California either.
    I think your thinking is stuck in the 1950s - California's last couple booms were not lead by manufacturing. Michigan never had a diversifed economy - California does. Manufacturing jobs are low wage compared to tech jobs - innovation is where California still leads. Globalization will always force companies to cheaper countries to produce goods (see Cane Creek example) - some jobs are already leaving China.

    The CEOs of Silicon Valley (at least the ones I've talked too) plan to stay because they just can't get skilled workers in other states and frankly the CEOs want to live in the Bay Area.

    As a 4th generation native, I would be happy to see more people leave at any rate.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I think your thinking is stuck in the 1950s - California's last couple booms were not lead by manufacturing. Michigan never had a diversifed economy - California does. Manufacturing jobs are low wage compared to tech jobs - innovation is where California still leads. Globalization will always force companies to cheaper countries to produce goods (see Cane Creek example) - some jobs are already leaving China.

    The CEOs of Silicon Valley (at least the ones I've talked too) plan to stay because they just can't get skilled workers in other states and frankly the CEOs want to live in the Bay Area.

    As a 4th generation native, I would be happy to see more people leave at any rate.
    This is completely not true. Manufacturing drove California's economy in the 90s. I was in high tech and we still manufactured most things there. I don't care if it was ASICs or routers, or computers, a good chunk was built in California. My head is not in the wrong place and we already tried the service economy in the 80s. It didn't work. It won't work this time. Show me a robust economy based on services. It doesn't exist. As things stand now we are building a two tier economy, the have and have not. The middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate. People can rationalize buying cheap imported goods any way they want but it will come home to roost and it is. Anyhow this has started to get way off topic.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    This is completely not true. Manufacturing drove California's economy in the 90s. I was in high tech and we still manufactured most things there. I don't care if it was ASICs or routers, or computers, a good chunk was built in California. My head is not in the wrong place and we already tried the service economy in the 80s. It didn't work. It won't work this time. Show me a robust economy based on services. It doesn't exist. As things stand now we are building a two tier economy, the have and have not. The middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate. People can rationalize buying cheap imported goods any way they want but it will come home to roost and it is. Anyhow this has started to get way off topic.
    We've had other cycles since the 90s. I do agree we need more manufacturing and I always try to buy stuff made in America and/or other advanced countries. California has lots of problems, but your doomsday predictions sounds like you're mostly trying to justify why you left. In the 1950s we had a robust economy, growing middle class, more taxes on the rich and lots of manufacturing - no one thing lead to our downfall.

    This tea party obsession that lower taxes and abortion bans are the solution to all of life's problems is just silly stupid.

    The one thing we haven't discussed here is greed. Greed is the main thing that's lead to offshoring. Companies are no longer satisfied with a decent profit, they need massive profits today at the expense of tomarrow.

  5. #105
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    No not at all. I left because of a high paying tech job. I know why I left. If anything I am frustrated I can't go back and retire in the style of living I am accustomed to. The state wants too much of my hard earned money. Every time I go home I think man things have become run down around here. I just don't see it as the land of opportunity it once was. IMO it's still a beautiful place that I love. You can live better just about anywhere else in the country on a lot less money. Even as a commuter to NYC or Boston. I am frustrated because any way you chop it these days you can't make an economic argument for going back to the golden state. More than likely I'll end up in Oregon. Not the Bay Area but Portland isn't too shabby and they don't want to take everything I have earned.
    Last edited by FX4; 11-20-2012 at 03:36 PM.

  6. #106
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    I'd like to stear this away from red vs blue for a sec. I for one loved my us made blur classic. I've got a Taiwanese blur lt2 now and have been eyeing an intense carbine when I go back from student to employee. It is an amazing bike that just oozes quality. My biggest hang up is that the frame is made in tw. I have no problem with Taiwanese stuff, supporting them does not prop up a totalitarian regime which oppresses its people. I'd still rather buy American. The Alu intense equivalent is too heavy or I'd be there in a heart beat. The question has to be asked why trek moved oclv overseas, why intense couldn't do carbon here, etc. There are no carbon fs frames made in the states that aren't these single pivot custom jobs, at any price. If 2800 is how much a Taiwanese carbon frame is valued at, how much would it cost to do it here? 3500? Santa Cruz's v10 carbon announced today is $3500. The prototype syndicate ran in the world cup had an enve made in the usa rear. I'm pretty sure the production is 100% tw. The question is why? Cost? Volume? Its not technology, enve and others prove we have it. If I'm paying that much for a race bike, you don't think I'd pay another 500 or even 1500 for enve to make my frame?

    I will interject this: I appreciate this notion that America is going toward being a thinking nation, but then why are American schools so bad in comparison and why do we graduate more humanities majors than scientists and engineers? Red or blue voters, American youth would rather keep up with Kim K than Einstein or Newton. This is a cultural problem that has to be fixed.

  7. #107
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    @hkenshin

    It's obviously cost related, I have seen restructuring at major companies in Euro zone. Finance jobs, infrastructure, client centres all moving from 1st world countries to developing nations as labour is cheaper.

    One client Johnson Elec outsourced to Poland & has continued in Croatia. Many have done including Phillip Morris et al. From manufacturing to other areas. Initial first years the problems are lack of skilled people. This is countered by bringing in people to train from their main hubs. It's nothing new and will continue. Going to Taiwain is a greater trend. Utilising Just-in-Time & other efficiencies many manufacturers are relocating manufacturing to reduce costs and maximise profit. In days when demand has gone down (look at the Autos eg Peugeot, Renault, Citroen et al).

    Interesting I read how quality is up on Cannondale from taking handmade out. Change is inevitable to remain a brand & competitive. Unless you want to earn $1 per day (exaggeration) it will become more difficult to compete with intelligent strategic bike companies who are not charities but entrepreneurs trying to listen to our voices as customers.

    In particular, statistically you could be correct in regards to your cultural notion in the last paragraph. However, I see MIT and other top IVY leagues spew out brilliant inventors... Inventions tend to be outsourced. The UK had lost its competitiveness from after WWII to Japan & China. It's now Singapore to Taiwan and not a bad thing for consumerism. The nations debt is what needs to be reduced. We will hurt for a long time in the West as the burden of govt and lower investments are passed on to society.

    Luckily there are very good wheelsets, hubs and products still competitive in the west like Enve, Hope etc etc

    Ride On

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkenshin View Post
    I'd like to stear this away from red vs blue for a sec. I for one loved my us made blur classic. I've got a Taiwanese blur lt2 now and have been eyeing an intense carbine when I go back from student to employee. It is an amazing bike that just oozes quality. My biggest hang up is that the frame is made in tw. I have no problem with Taiwanese stuff, supporting them does not prop up a totalitarian regime which oppresses its people. I'd still rather buy American. The Alu intense equivalent is too heavy or I'd be there in a heart beat. The question has to be asked why trek moved oclv overseas, why intense couldn't do carbon here, etc. There are no carbon fs frames made in the states that aren't these single pivot custom jobs, at any price. If 2800 is how much a Taiwanese carbon frame is valued at, how much would it cost to do it here? 3500? Santa Cruz's v10 carbon announced today is $3500. The prototype syndicate ran in the world cup had an enve made in the usa rear. I'm pretty sure the production is 100% tw. The question is why? Cost? Volume? Its not technology, enve and others prove we have it. If I'm paying that much for a race bike, you don't think I'd pay another 500 or even 1500 for enve to make my frame?

    I will interject this: I appreciate this notion that America is going toward being a thinking nation, but then why are American schools so bad in comparison and why do we graduate more humanities majors than scientists and engineers? Red or blue voters, American youth would rather keep up with Kim K than Einstein or Newton. This is a cultural problem that has to be fixed.
    FWIW I don't get hung up on the blue / red state thing. Personally I'm purple. I pretty much agree with you on all fronts here. My next bike will be an Ibis Mojo made in TW. That being said the rest of the bike will be outfitted with mostly U.S. sourced parts.

    A nation of thinkers is just silly. Who is going to do the work? Rome, study Rome. It does not work.
    Last edited by FX4; 11-20-2012 at 03:37 PM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreet View Post
    @hkenshin

    However, I see MIT and other top IVY leagues spew out brilliant inventors... Inventions tend to be outsourced.
    My friend from high school who was doing his Ph.D at MIT just sold his company for $1.2 billion. We still have a lot of bright kids with bright ideas.

    However, have you been a student in one of these programs? In the ph.d programs, there is a disproportionate number of foreign students who come here because we have the finest institutions and resources in higher education. There is nothing wrong with this. We've been brain draining the world since WWII at least, but at some point you have to imagine Chinese and Indian universities will try to catch up, or the incentive to stay or come to the US will disappear and we might have a reverse brain drain.

    If we establish cost is king, why is cost so high here? Taiwan is not exactly a poor country which is cheap to live in. It's not 1st world expensive, but it's not exactly a place you can live on dollars/day. They don't have foxconn-like indentured cities. What measures can we take to bring the cost down of domestic manufacturing to compete? Why are our politicians so useless in terms of doing this, handling our debt, and fixing our clearly broken education system? Throwing money at the problem does not seem to fix it. We're not training enough kids to take up high skilled manual labor jobs, we're not training them to go into science or any math heavy fields. We're training too many of them to be consumers who have high self importance, but low self worth. Damn it, now I've derailed the thread again.

  10. #110
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    One thing I think we can all agree on is that the education system needs help. I think we could also use a better way to train people for skilled trades and skilled manufacturing (like in Germany). Maybe we can't get our manufacturing back to 1950s levels, but many higher end products could be made here. Both unions and shareholders need to get a lot less greedy. Other countries are investing money in the future and we need to also.

  11. #111
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    I've been riding Ventana mountain bikes for the last couple years and I'm extremely satisfied with their attention to detail and the quality of the ride.

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    The standard of living in the US is in decline. Corporations have more rights than citizens. The white house spends most of your taxes on the military. The media is so full of propaganda that people actually think that if you are poor or in difficulty that it must be your own fault.

    The USA of the 21st century looks no different than the feudal system of Europe in the middle ages.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    One thing I think we can all agree on is that the education system needs help. I think we could also use a better way to train people for skilled trades and skilled manufacturing (like in Germany). Maybe we can't get our manufacturing back to 1950s levels, but many higher end products could be made here. Both unions and shareholders need to get a lot less greedy. Other countries are investing money in the future and we need to also.
    I think the problem here is we want everybody to be college educated when everyone is not college material or wants a college education. We need trade schools too. I am rather dismayed at the decline in trade schools over the years as well as the lack of tracking in high school. If you're not college bound, forget it. Not everybody can be an engineer, Wall Street broker, or manager. Some people actually need to know how to make things well, maintain or repair them. There is nothing wrong with being a welder, electrician, skilled carpenter or computer operator (yeah we actually need these guys in factories).

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    The standard of living in the US is in decline. Corporations have more rights than citizens. The white house spends most of your taxes on the military. The media is so full of propaganda that people actually think that if you are poor or in difficulty that it must be your own fault.

    The USA of the 21st century looks no different than the feudal system of Europe in the middle ages.
    This is true for the traditional middle class in America which is the basis for my argument that buying American made matters. The upper middle class is doing very well these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    The standard of living in the US is in decline. Corporations have more rights than citizens. The white house spends most of your taxes on the military. The media is so full of propaganda that people actually think that if you are poor or in difficulty that it must be your own fault.

    The USA of the 21st century looks no different than the feudal system of Europe in the middle ages.

    Some Euro Facts:

    Deutsche the largest German bank was leveraged at a ratio of 40:1 according to the International Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS). This is higher than Lehman Brothers had when it collapsed causing the global failures, most German banks fail to comply with new Basel rules of liquidity. Using Basel narrower capital requirements rules - two U.S. banks largest would have to raise about $100 billion of capital to comply with leverage recommendation.

    I think the US banks are in greater compliance than Euro-zone (not inclusive of Switzerland that remains very stable).

    How does it relate to bike owners - well you're part of the 25mn American adults still living at home as they can't afford to be on their own or those without work. Demand squeezed means Suppliers needs to squash their ROIs and have better inventory control.

    EUROPE:

    Labour costs in Euro per hour in Belgium is 39
    Holland 31
    UK 20
    Ireland 17
    Poland 7

    Note that restructuring has created companies to close this year eg Phillips in Turnhout Belgium. Moving often to cheaper countries like Poland.

    Source (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/sta..._recent_trends)

    2015 BCG Report
    Whilst USA & China gap is closing.

    Its likely that the labour costs in China would match the USA in four years, catching up with eurozone countries in five years and with Japan in seven, (Source: French bank Natixis forecast in a study)

    For example, NCR has moved its manufacture of ATMs to a factory in Columbus, Georgia, that will employ 870 workers as of 2014 (Source BCG report).

    USA & UK

    What's needed is investment as banks don't heed to the startup costs of new products and instead often good ideas are lost abroad. I think often enough there is 'outsourcing ' of production as local firms don't have the know-how or ability in more efficient foreign firms that leverage their CNC lines over multiple manufacturers.

    The US state by state, needs to task in luring & competing for international business. Looking at Ireland who often discount taxation for such corporate setup.

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    @wallstreet

    What is needed is a complete roll back on the financial system. In other words back to the regulations that were put in place after the crash of 1929. The financial system was stable until Reagan started to deregulate the industry, since then it has been a cycle of ever increasing financial crisis's. More people in finance have been led away in cuffs than any other. It is the most corrupt sector in the economy yet the govt continues its unabashed support and people just take it, its quite amazing. They say the banks are too big to fail, ok so lets make them smaller.

    Look at Wal Mart, my favourite example for illustrating what is wrong in US society because that poor excuse for an oganization hits on all fronts. A private company owned by a family of five (the royalty) worth a combined $40 billion. They have approx two million workers (the serfs) that are paid poverty wages, get zero benefits, are treated badly and subject to intimidation to work long hours. There is no reason for that kind of corporate behaviour, it is a disgrace. It gets worse once you start looking at all their sweatshops etc in Asia.

    There is no govt pressure to make Wal Mart responsible for their workers. The workers have no chance to form unions because if it really comes to a head then the local police will step in to protect scabs so the Waltons can sip their afternoon sherry in peace. Quite the feudal set up I think.

    There is no chance to get more stuff (including bikes!) made in the USA until you all start to stick up for yourselves. Corporations have more rights than you do and that needs to change.

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    I always look at the country of origin for anything I buy, often I notice USA, Euro or Japanese made goods are priced about the same as goods made in China or other developing countries. For example Nikon makes most lower end and point and shoot cameras in Thailand, yet Canon can produce similar cameras at like prices in Japan. Assuming Japanesse labor cost are higher, where's the extra profit going? Today at Home Depot I noticed two saw blades, one made in Italy of all places and the other made in China - where's the extra profit going? I opted for the Italian blade by the way - they need the business.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    @wallstreet

    What is needed is a complete roll back on the financial system. In other words back to the regulations that were put in place after the crash of 1929. The financial system was stable until Reagan started to deregulate the industry, since then it has been a cycle of ever increasing financial crisis's. More people in finance have been led away in cuffs than any other. It is the most corrupt sector in the economy yet the govt continues its unabashed support and people just take it, its quite amazing. They say the banks are too big to fail, ok so lets make them smaller.

    Look at Wal Mart, my favourite example for illustrating what is wrong in US society because that poor excuse for an oganization hits on all fronts. A private company owned by a family of five (the royalty) worth a combined $40 billion. They have approx two million workers (the serfs) that are paid poverty wages, get zero benefits, are treated badly and subject to intimidation to work long hours. There is no reason for that kind of corporate behaviour, it is a disgrace. It gets worse once you start looking at all their sweatshops etc in Asia.

    There is no govt pressure to make Wal Mart responsible for their workers. The workers have no chance to form unions because if it really comes to a head then the local police will step in to protect scabs so the Waltons can sip their afternoon sherry in peace. Quite the feudal set up I think.

    There is no chance to get more stuff (including bikes!) made in the USA until you all start to stick up for yourselves. Corporations have more rights than you do and that needs to change.
    The irony of this is that social services such as food stamps help Walmart to keep operating like this - even through I'm sure those programs are hated by the owners.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    Waltons can sip their afternoon sherry in peace. Quite the feudal set up I think.

    There is no chance to get more stuff (including bikes!) made in the USA until you all start to stick up for yourselves. Corporations have more rights than you do and that needs to change.

    Protectionism can be a good thing, patriotism is here in Switzerland. Most foods are made locally, foreign foodstuff are taxed so are more expensive. Quality control is imperative on produce. People tend to favour local. It all helps. Switzerland were smart enough not to be part of the European Union & Euro currency that is now weak due to Spain, Italy, Ireland & Greece.

    McDs is your biggest most successful franchise that does well in Switzerland, France etc there is CAT, there are many many more to Pharma too. Legitimate corporations without the folly of WallMart as you deem. It's a tough one. I purchase quality products first & foremost. Luckily hiking gear Mammut is a favourite BUT it's produced in India to Thailand! Designed here! This is often the case.

    2015 is when I hope the US & UK feel strength to get out of this failure of a global scale. I see a sea of change in new rules for liquidity & getting corporate America or UK into shape. It's getting better but isn't going to be overnight.

    Would I buy American? Certainly if it meant Quality & Integrity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    I think the problem here is we want everybody to be college educated when everyone is not college material or wants a college education. We need trade schools too. I am rather dismayed at the decline in trade schools over the years as well as the lack of tracking in high school. If you're not college bound, forget it. Not everybody can be an engineer, Wall Street broker, or manager. Some people actually need to know how to make things well, maintain or repair them. There is nothing wrong with being a welder, electrician, skilled carpenter or computer operator (yeah we actually need these guys in factories).
    Skipping around this thread and found this

    This has been one of my arguments for a good while.
    I really took notice when my, now 19 y.o., daughter entered public schooling.
    I had the opportunity to volunteer and work in her schools for many of her years up to the 8th grade.
    I got sick of all the hype for pushing every child towards college.
    The respect for blue-collar jobs is just not present.
    If a kid wants to wrench on diesel engines instead of designing them... must be a loser

    There are so many factors present that drive things to the point they are today.

    But an All-American-Made mountain bike?
    Yeah! I'd buy one! Maybe I will.. still!
    Or else I'll run up north and get a Devinci... while they still manufacture them there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wsmac View Post
    Skipping around this thread and found this

    This has been one of my arguments for a good while.
    I really took notice when my, now 19 y.o., daughter entered public schooling.
    I had the opportunity to volunteer and work in her schools for many of her years up to the 8th grade.
    I got sick of all the hype for pushing every child towards college.
    The respect for blue-collar jobs is just not present.
    If a kid wants to wrench on diesel engines instead of designing them... must be a loser

    There are so many factors present that drive things to the point they are today.

    But an All-American-Made mountain bike?
    Yeah! I'd buy one! Maybe I will.. still!
    Or else I'll run up north and get a Devinci... while they still manufacture them there!
    absolutly correct, there should be dignity in all work. And you are right in that not everyone can be a global account manager, society still needs shop clerks.

    Who can really afford college anyways? If you get a loan to go to college or uni it is a debt that you cannot walk away from, its there for life, there are no bail out packages
    for unemployed or under employed graduate students, the banks have the right to garnishee your wages on a student loan although at that point they usually sell the debt to a debt collector. Either way they own you until every last cent plus interest is paid.

    The more that your govt steers education into the private sector the worse it will get.

    The only reason why the education system of today is in trouble is because the state has been cutting funding for years. If you cut funding then eventually the system will beak down. It has been deliberate. Because if the system has finally died a slow death, the public are fed up and don't care anymore and it becomes easy to move it all into the private sector.

    There are lots of reasons why bikes are no longer made in the USA. Education is one of them, the US has actually gone backwards in education, for the first time in its history americans are less educated than the previous generation.

    The government belongs to the corporate sector, corporations have more rights than you do. This needs to change. If you can change that then there is a way forward, anything else is smoke and mirrors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallstreet View Post
    Protectionism can be a good thing, patriotism is here in Switzerland. Most foods are made locally, foreign foodstuff are taxed so are more expensive. Quality control is imperative on produce. People tend to favour local. It all helps. Switzerland were smart enough not to be part of the European Union & Euro currency that is now weak due to Spain, Italy, Ireland & Greece.

    McDs is your biggest most successful franchise that does well in Switzerland, France etc there is CAT, there are many many more to Pharma too. Legitimate corporations without the folly of WallMart as you deem. It's a tough one. I purchase quality products first & foremost. Luckily hiking gear Mammut is a favourite BUT it's produced in India to Thailand! Designed here! This is often the case.

    2015 is when I hope the US & UK feel strength to get out of this failure of a global scale. I see a sea of change in new rules for liquidity & getting corporate America or UK into shape. It's getting better but isn't going to be overnight.

    Would I buy American? Certainly if it meant Quality & Integrity.
    The most successful industry in the US belongs to the military. The US pumps out the worlds most advanced weaponry from the M16 to the F22. And the US military gets billions and billions of tax payer money every year and its called Defense. Interesting that its called Defense, they should call it Offense, but thats another discussion. The US tax payer also supports the aerospace industry and keeps private companies like Boeing and Mcdonnell Douglas afloat via govt contracts.

    The US market is highly protected, all those free trade agreements are one way tickets for US industry. Look at NAFTA, the US has owed Canada $2.7 billion over softwood lumber which they never paid which destroyed the logging industry of BC and which had a curious side effect, many unemployed loggers and the like moved into cannabis production and today you have the famous BC bud, but again that is another discusion.

    There are many examples of so called trade agreements that only benefit western corporations to the detriment of other usually third world nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.
    Being originally from California, it is disappointing to see how that state has turned out. What use to be the crown jewel of the US has turned into the regulation armpit of the country.
    Killing it with close inspection.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Being originally from California, it is disappointing to see how that state has turned out. What use to be the crown jewel of the US has turned into the regulation armpit of the country.
    GDP rank:
    CA = number 1 (51k per capita)
    AZ = number 18 (40k per capita)

    Just saying.

  25. #125
    FX4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    GDP rank:
    CA = number 1 (51k per capita)
    AZ = number 18 (40k per capita)

    Just saying.
    Equivalent cost of living that 40k is going to go a lot farther in AZ than 51k in CA. Just saying. I would also point out that AZ is a place where people go when they retire so GDP is kind of a pointless measurement when you have an above average retired population.

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