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  1. #76
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    Man I kind of disagree with quite a bit in these last few posts.

    1. We have traditionally manufactured some of the best products on the planet.
    2. Our manufacturing might is what brought us into WWII. It's what won WWII.

    The one thing I do agree with is that we generally can not do it cheaper. Not always but generally things made in China are inferior to their U.S. manufactured counter parts. I think bicycles are probably one of a handful of exceptions. Electronics are inferior, metals are generally inferior. Chinese stainless is complete garbage. Home electrics made in China are garbage. Most computers coming out of China are garbage, excepting apple. American manufacturing when it is done properly produces some of the finest products in the world.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    Nations in a semi-peripheral position relative to the US, which produce items specifically to draw dollars into their country, should not be looked at as 'taking our jobs' but rather as supporting our higher standards of living and productivity.

    We Americans are the ones benefitting most from trade with peripheral nations. Its clear if you look at the mind-boggling amount of goods and labor we receive in exchange for what we ourselves produce. An example would be: a US real estate agent sells a house and uses the commision to buy a sweet bike .. Seemingly, the RA agent didn't work 'hard' enough to build a top-to-bottom bike from scratch but because of the willingness/desperation of other nations intent on functioning as peripheral economies, the purchasing/consumption power of the American worker is magnified.

    The strength of the dollar means the compensation I receive for my one day's work can buy the day's work of many. Hard to say that we are getting the raw end of the deal.
    Well put. The irony of this thread is that if we only bought American-made goods, our standard of living would be MUCH lower, and very few people would have enough disposable income for such niceties as a mountain bike.

  3. #78
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    No this is wrong. You create an endless cycle of devouring the middle class in America buying internationally made goods. You weaken our skills and power as a nation. Manufacturing is the engine that drives wealth and the middle class. The view cited above is a short term personal gain economic financial view that has long term dire consequences for the economy and the nation's position as a world power at large. Real estate agent? Really? One of the most overpaid low skill professions in the U.S.. I'm all over outsourcing those guys. LOL.
    Last edited by FX4; 11-19-2012 at 09:24 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    Well put. The irony of this thread is that if we only bought American-made goods, our standard of living would be MUCH lower, and very few people would have enough disposable income for such niceties as a mountain bike.
    Actually if more goods were made in the USA then everyone would have a MUCH higher standard of living. There would be more people gainfully employed in the economy.

    But that is not what corporate america wants, they want profits not gainful employment.

    There is no real trade with peripheral countries, it is mostly internal trade within a corporate entity. If AT&T decides to buy 1000 Apple computers for its new office it is simply a buy sell between two US companies. Those 1000 computers coming from Asia are entered into the import/export statistics but its not really what you would call trade.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    No this is wrong. You create an endless cycle of devouring the middle class in America buying internationally made goods. You weaken our skills and power as a nation. Manufacturing is the engine that drives wealth and the middle class. The view cited above is a short term personal gain economic financial view that has long dire consequences for the economy and the nation's position as a world power at large. Real estate agent? Really? One of the most overpaid low skill professions in the U.S.. I'm all over outsourcing those guys. LOL.
    You are correct on all fronts except the US's position as a world power. There is no other country in the world that comes close to the US in military might, its an absolute no brainer that the US has the largest and most technically advanced military in all of human history. The US has a tight grip on the oil resources of the middle east further strengthening its position as the worlds biggest power.

    as for real estate agents they would have have it pretty tough right now.

  6. #81
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    My point is I don't think it will stay this way if we keep exporting our manufacturing. The ability of manufacturing nations to develop a military industrial complex such as ours increases as their manufacturing and technology prowess increases. Ours slows as we manufacture less and less. What I mean is fewer and fewer Americans know how to do things, I mean really do things, our ability to be innovative and keep our military at the top of the food chain is directly proportional to manufacturing in the U.S.. Do I hear Rome in the background saying been there, done that, it failed?

  7. #82
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    Oh and BTW, I have come up with just about everything made of top quality gear to build a U.S. made bike. Your wallet is going to hurt but it's doable.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    Actually if more goods were made in the USA then everyone would have a MUCH higher standard of living. There would be more people gainfully employed in the economy.

    But that is not what corporate america wants, they want profits not gainful employment.

    There is no real trade with peripheral countries, it is mostly internal trade within a corporate entity. If AT&T decides to buy 1000 Apple computers for its new office it is simply a buy sell between two US companies. Those 1000 computers coming from Asia are entered into the import/export statistics but its not really what you would call trade.
    More correctly Wall Street wants higher profit and manufacturing abroad is a way to achieve it. Unfortunately contract manufacturing is the undoing of many corporations. Although in general I completely agree with you.

  9. #84
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    And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
    Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadwulff View Post
    And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
    Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!
    The truth is Hostess is failing because of bad management. It is not run by bakers, but by bankers. Hostess is owned by a hedge fund and for the last 8 years has run it into the ground. Now without a clue how to fix things, they are just going to sell off it's assets and take the money and run. It is not the unions fault.

    I had a non-union profession - IT, I got continually downsized and out sourced until I was making less than when I started 15 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, I was making less than my public sector job in 1996. I WISH I was in a union.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by NastyHabits View Post
    The truth is Hostess is failing because of bad management. It is not run by bakers, but by bankers. Hostess is owned by a hedge fund and for the last 8 years has run it into the ground. Now without a clue how to fix things, they are just going to sell off it's assets and take the money and run. It is not the unions fault.

    I had a non-union profession - IT, I got continually downsized and out sourced until I was making less than when I started 15 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, I was making less than my public sector job in 1996. I WISH I was in a union.
    No the truth is the hedge funds bought up the debt of failing Hostess and tried to save them. They still felt their was value and relieved the company of half the debt it owed. In the end the unions wanted more for the employees than the market will bear. The reality is the union feels it's labor is worth more than it is. Now as far as your comments on IT, I don't know what part you are in but IT has done very well for me over the years. I had one shop go union and I left because of it. I told my employer I don't want this on my resume and gave notice. Perhaps you are not keeping your skills up to date?

  12. #87
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    Not everyone can work IT and not everyone is cut out to be a global account manager. There is nothing wrong with being a clerk in a Wal Mart for example, but what is wrong is the wages and lack of benefits that are paid to said worker, especially when the owners have more money than they know what to do with. And that is something the govt could easily change. The govt did deregulate the banking industry to the benefit of nobody except the banks. Why cant they regulate Wal Mart to pay its workers better wages and benefits?

    Not sure why anyone is arguing about liberals, there is very little difference between democrats and republicans, it doesn't matter who is in the white house because it is corporate america who pull the strings, the american people are second and third class citizens.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadwulff View Post
    And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
    Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!
    Unions do get greedy and sometimes seem more interested in saving the union more than the actual worker. But Hostess made products that aren't as popular as they used to be and frankly they just didn't keep up with the times.

    Quick question: why do liberal blue states have most of the biggest companies and jobs? I'm in the SF Bay Area, we have Apple, Google, Facebook, Cisco, EBay, etc (I could go on) right out the door? The reddest states have the highest numbers of people on welfare and they always seem to lack good jobs other than say chicken killing ...

    I think it may be time for you to turn off Fox News and except reality, unlike Karl Rove.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Unions do get greedy and sometimes seem more interested in saving the union more than the actual worker. But Hostess made products that aren't as popular as they used to be and frankly they just didn't keep up with the times.

    Quick question: why do liberal blue states have most of the biggest companies and jobs? I'm in the SF Bay Area, we have Apple, Google, Facebook, Cisco, EBay, etc (I could go on) right out the door? The reddest states have the highest numbers of people on welfare and they always seem to lack good jobs other than say chicken killing ...

    I think it may be time for you to turn off Fox News and except reality, unlike Karl Rove.
    Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...
    As a Bay Area native, most of our manufacturing has moved off shore actually (North Carolina is still too expensive) - which is sad. But this idea that liberals have chased all the jobs away is absurd. I'll bet the economic output of the Bay Area is much greater than the entire state of North Carolina - heck, I bet Apple has enough cash on hand to buy that state and a couple more.

  16. #91
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    Keep in mind SF and NYC are two of the most expensive places in the country to live. Both states have more than their fair share of problems.

    If Wal Mart does'nt provide a million 4th grade educated works employement. Who will? My family and I choose not to shop at WM due to the quality of their product's. Not their business practices.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...
    That's because some people still don't really know what the USs power really is. It WAS manufacturing at one time, as we were "ahead" of the world in that way. These ways powerhouses in East Asia and other places can manufacture whatever they want, and it will be on par with what we can make. Apple, Google, and all those companies, they invent "new stuff". That's where it's at. Just look at the "app" market now! Otherwise, someone is always going to manufacture things cheaper.

    At some point, it's ridiculous and the corporation is not attempting to run a successful business, they are just trying to increase shareholder value. The two do not go hand in hand. I doubt there are a lot of examples of unions demanding unreasonable wages and benefits, but at some point, it's better for a company to not exist rather than barely squeak by paying substandard wages. Then the "blood" of industry and innovation is renewed and another company can spring up in it's wake.
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    That's because some people still don't really know what the USs power really is. It WAS manufacturing at one time, as we were "ahead" of the world in that way. These ways powerhouses in East Asia and other places can manufacture whatever they want, and it will be on par with what we can make. Apple, Google, and all those companies, they invent "new stuff". That's where it's at. Just look at the "app" market now! Otherwise, someone is always going to manufacture things cheaper.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    .
    I hear this explanation of the "better" business model a lot. Basically, the U.S. will have the better jobs and make the real money. The problem with that is that not everyone is an inventor or designer. Not everyone likes to work with computers. One persons idea of a better job is something the next person will hate. It really reminds me of the "service economy" BS that all the smart idiots were blathering about 20 years ago.

    More to the point though is looking at how many people are employed in manufacturing operations. There is a research paper that was published by the California Research Bureau in the late 90's. It has some very interesting numbers, but just a couple of examples I remember. Between 1987 and 1995, IBM reduced it's U.S. workforce from 406,000 to 202,000. General Motors had 800,000 employees in 1980, and had 450,000 in 1990. There are just tons of other examples like these if you look into it. These companies continued to design and develop here in the U.S., but much of the manufacturing was outsourced. Do you really believe that 350,000 former G.M. assembly line workers went on to a second career as a software engineer?

    Go back to college and get an education. that will fix them up right. Why do you think wages for college degree jobs are going down? Maybe more people with degrees than there are jobs that require them?

    Honestly, large manufacturing operations are excellent jobs for people without specialized skill sets. When a high school graduate with basically no specialized training can go to work on an assembly line hanging parts on a car as it goes by, or running a stamp press turning a couple bucks worth of sheet metal into a several hundred dollar fender, they are being productive, making money for the company, and in the process make a pretty good pay check and benefits for themselves. Jobs like those allowed them to make enough money to buy a home, raise a family, buy a car, go out to dinner and so on. And they could do all that without having to run up $30 or $40 thousand dollars in student loans.

    As those jobs go away, those people are working at the X-Mart for a fraction of the pay. The reason X-mart is doing so much business is that half the people in town are broke and trying save pennies on any bill they can. Of course half the town is broke because so many of the jobs are gone.

    The other stripe of X-mart shopper are people that still make a decent wage, but shop where they can get the lowest price. Hey, after all, it really doesn't matter where the stuff is made since it is a global economy anyway right?

    To some of the posters that have said it is stupid to pay more for a bike frame that is made in the U.S. because maybe the tubeset wasn't made here, or maybe the ore wasn't mined here, I have to ask. Do you really think there is no value in employing a skilled welder in your own neighborhood because the tubes he is welding were made somewhere else?

    Sorry if this comes off as a rant, but I know too many people that have been affected by this very thing and it is near and dear to me. Especially when people tell me that I really don't understand how these thing work.
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  19. #94
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    You are exactly right. It goes way beyond low skilled labor on the line being employed at good wages too. There are all the professionals, management, IT, etc. that don't have jobs either. Really if you want to get down to the bottom line it's people rationalizing not supporting their own economy. I find it kind of funny often these same guys are complaining about how the economy sucks and how they can't find a good paying job. Well duh! Personally I buy as much made in the U.S. as I reasonably can. When it comes to cars, ironically the Japanese brands often produce more U.S. jobs than their American counterparts. Bicycles I'm still figuring it out. Twelve years ago it was not a problem buying a U.S. made bike, now for the most part you are over 2k for a road bike and 5k for a mountain bike.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    As a Bay Area native, most of our manufacturing has moved off shore actually (North Carolina is still too expensive) - which is sad. But this idea that liberals have chased all the jobs away is absurd. I'll bet the economic output of the Bay Area is much greater than the entire state of North Carolina - heck, I bet Apple has enough cash on hand to buy that state and a couple more.
    You would be surprised at the number of companies that used to manufacture in California now doing it in North Carolina. No it's not cheap, but it's doable and profitable. North Carolina has a strong manufacturing economy. They keep the unions out and regulations down to a reasonable level.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyNeutron10101 View Post
    Defined Made in USA.

    because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?

    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are NOT USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are NOT naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in USA if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the USA?
    etc...

    Be specific if you're soooooooooooooooo concern about Made in USA.
    Jimmy, with all due respect, im pretty sure the OP asked if ''any bikes were made in the US'' i didnt see him ask if every component down to the grease was made there, thats just ridiculous, of course every component is not gonna be made there, and then to go on and talk about whether the people that made it are naturalised USA citizens etc etc, Jimmy are you just takin da piss, lol.
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  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Troll View Post
    Keep in mind SF and NYC are two of the most expensive places in the country to live. Both states have more than their fair share of problems.

    If Wal Mart does'nt provide a million 4th grade educated works employement. Who will? My family and I choose not to shop at WM due to the quality of their product's. Not their business practices.
    The education system has failed those millions of Walmart workers.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    You would be surprised at the number of companies that used to manufacture in California now doing it in North Carolina. No it's not cheap, but it's doable and profitable. North Carolina has a strong manufacturing economy. They keep the unions out and regulations down to a reasonable level.
    Even if we banned all unions and starting dumping toxins in our creeks, it would never be a good deal to manufacture in the land of $500k houses.

    N. Carolina's GDP is ranked 10th in the US, which shows they're doing something right. Their per capita GDP is only ranked 31 which shows lower wages and lower productivity on average.

    They're also still behind a couple "rust belt" states and California blows them and most countries out of the water of course.

  24. #99
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    Yes both are true and NC still has some of the old South about it, but it is changing fast. Some rust belt states like Pa where I live are working hard to change. California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Yes both are true and NC still has some of the old South about it, but it is changing fast. Some rust belt states like Pa where I live are working hard to change. California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.
    You'd think Cane Creek could still make headsets in NC given the superior labor environment - last one I got was Asia of course.

    California has been going down the tubes for 40 years; yet we still invent everything that matters (iPhones and mountain biking come to mind) ... and that's what will move the state forward - not low wage manufacturing jobs. California is a boom and bust state like no other - oddly silicon valley companies are hiring again and we're leading the housing recovery.

    Now to the question that really matters ... do we mountain bike, surf or ski the day after turkey day?

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