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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by manabiker View Post
    Davinci are from Canada they make bikes there, I'm not sure if all bikes are made in Canada, eh?
    Devinci (not davinci) and I'm fairly certain all the frames are welded in Canada (and they brag final assembly is all done in house too).

    I'd love to find out for sure as it is surprising something like the entry level cameleon would be built in north american and be able to compete cost wise with all the other manufacturers that have contracted their entry level frames to Taiwan or other countries.

  2. #52
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    Nice bike! How do you like your $1400.00 rear hub? Is it worth the coin?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gill-Man AKA Cornfield View Post
    "Am I a mountain biker?" I determined that I was a "Plains Biker" since there are no mountains here where I live now.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Yeti is not made in the USA.
    Quote Originally Posted by hardtail05 View Post
    ??? what do you mean ? I was in their factory a few years ago in Golden. ???
    Maybe the new carbon ones? Mine is aluminum (main frame triangle) and says "Made in Colorado" - I am not sure about the carbon rear triangle, though ....
    Have to agree with hardtail....

    I live about five miles from the Yeti factory in Golden, and unless your talking about the origin of the aluminum (which I'm pretty sure is domestic), I can assure you that Yeti Cycles are made in Colorado.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyNeutron10101 View Post
    Defined Made in USA.

    because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?

    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are NOT USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are NOT naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in USA if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the USA?
    etc...

    Be specific if you're soooooooooooooooo concern about Made in USA.
    Lame.

  5. #55
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    The higher end Cannondales are made in PA...not sure what level they start making them there. I know my $1800 Jekyll was made there.
    Nashbar SS 29er
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  6. #56
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    My 2008 Yeti 575 frame was made overseas.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gill-Man AKA Cornfield View Post
    "Am I a mountain biker?" I determined that I was a "Plains Biker" since there are no mountains here where I live now.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE, View Post
    Intense Company Page
    Made in Temecula California
    They make nice bikes (actually hoping I could find one for a good deal next time I was in the inland empire area), but no entry level bikes (part of the OP's question). Their cheapest FS frame is >$2K. Their hardtail frame is $679. That's basically the price of a complete entry level bike from Trek, Specialized, Jamis, Norco etc.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGABIGD View Post
    The higher end Cannondales are made in PA...not sure what level they start making them there. I know my $1800 Jekyll was made there.
    Cannondale hasn't made a frame in the US for 3+ years

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfan View Post
    is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in the usa consist of asians that are not usa citizens?
    Is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in the usa consist of asians that are usa citizens?
    Is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in the usa consist of asians that are naturalized usa citizens?
    Is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in asia consist of all usa citizenship that are not naturalized usa citizens?
    Is it consider made in the usa if the entire company in asia consist of all usa citizenship that are naturalized usa citizens?
    Is it consider made in usa if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the usa?
    Etc...


    You don't sound like you were 'made in the usa'
    bingo!

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by INeedGears! View Post
    Cannondale hasn't made a frame in the US for 3+ years
    That is what I thought. I saw something funny or not so funny this weekend. I was at a bike riding trail that rents bikes at the head end. A big sign was displayed that they rented Cannondale bikes "Made in the USA". I thought hmm pretty sure they tucked their tale between their legs and ran off to China like the rest.

  12. #62
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    As well, if I remember correctly Turner is looking at off-shore production.
    The reason the RFX was still born is that the price SAPA wanted for production was so high that DT couldn't afford to sell it - a price of 3500+ per frame was bandied about at one time.

    As for quality in NA mfg - Unfortunately it is not necessarily the best....

    Prime example is Knolly and SAPA.
    SAPA could not provide the materials and quality that Knolly wanted.
    After having to dump an entire production run and loose the model year due to unacceptable QC from SAPA they decided to go off-shore.

    Noel (Knolly) stated that the tube-sets and mfg processes, now available to him overseas allows him to design stuff that couldn't be built on this side pond with our normally available current processes.

    We have given our expertise and even cutting edge mfg technologies and equipment and have shipped them overseas. They have taken that and run with it while we sit around moaning about the situation we created.

    I really wish it were different - I liked the idea my bike was built in Canada/US
    ...but we ARE the author of our own misfortune.

    michael
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by l84thsky View Post
    True, but why would I not want German, British, French, Swiss, Italian and Canadian parts. I only wanted to avoid cheap sh!t.
    Are you saying that Shimano and Sram are crappy and inferior to all your parts? I sense some subtle racism there.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    <snip>
    ...

    Noel (Knolly) stated that the tube-sets and mfg processes, now available to him overseas allows him to design stuff that couldn't be built on this side pond with our normally available current processes.

    We have given our expertise and even cutting edge mfg technologies and equipment and have shipped them overseas. They have taken that and run with it while we sit around moaning about the situation we created.

    I really wish it were different - I liked the idea my bike was built in Canada/US
    ...but we ARE the author of our own misfortune.

    michael
    '

    I worked in the R&D side of a NA manf company. For certain items it was really hard to beat outsourcing for quality, quickness and price. Lots of the NA companies just haven't been able to keep up equipment and technology wise. Options were found as the product had to have sufficient US and NA content (final assembly was always done NA).

    The reason price can't be touched is pretty obvious: either they are using low paid (slave) labour, or they have enough throughput to afford automating large quantities of the process.

    And of course low price buys them more business, which is more revenue, which is more money to spend on the latest tech.

    Do you think Straitline Components would be where they are now if they didn't have aerospace and medical contracts? Good profitable business (in non-consumer areas that are higher margin) is what I'm guessing allowed them to get into top of the line state of the art cnc. If you are in consumer products you are often competing for the bottom. It's hard to compete when your entry level bike costs $200 more than the competitor purely due to labour costs.

    Shipping is starting to be a factor for some products now though. Price Rupert BC is getting a lot more port action from China due to the 2 day quicker sailing time as compared to US ports (less fuel and lower risk being at sea less time).

    Just checked the bottom of my wife's Devinci (since I mentioned them earlier). The frame is made in Vietnam.

  15. #65
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    The only thing that I don't fully agree with is the slave labour.
    Taiwanese welders are highly skilled and are well paid within their economic strata.
    This may not be the case in other countries.

    ...And it just may get a bit worse before better, China is now losing business to lower cost asian countries and some in developing Africa as Chineses labour costs are rising...

    However I have heard the same that you mention regarding shipping. The cost benefits of over-seas production are eaten by higher shipping costs, as well as higher production oversight costs due to being a large pond away. This is the main reason that high-quality Asian production is not any cheaper...

    So, if shipping costs becomes a bigger issue as we believe it will, this hopefully will spur manufactures to move production back home. Problem is then we have the lack of tech for the actual materials. So in the meantime do we then import the tube-sets and weld here, until we regain our mfg strength?

    IMO I think we have a ways to go before this happens. There is still too much emphasis placed on saving a penny or two by moving overseas. Board rooms are still applauding these steps as cost savings... (Look at Apple - how many billions in the bank do you need) However if everything is then produced overseas, how the he|| are we supposed to buy it with no job or a McJob that does not even provide a decent standard of living? If they want to continue to sell their products here, maybe they should take a look at the long-game.

    It's a mugs game.

    cheers

    michael
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  16. #66
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    I respect others that care about where their bikes are manufactured. I personally care -- not just bikes, but also electronics and other things. To me it's more than just quality or cost, although those are important factors too.

    Look at workers committing suicide and being allegedly beaten by guards at Foxxconn (builds iPhone, Xbox, etc. parts) after being forced to work overtime in China. Even if those facts aren't completely true, it is nearly impossible to know for certain because the Chinese government blatantly controls the flow of information. I try to vote with my dollar and minimize buying stuff coming from China proper, although I'm not always disciplined.

    That being said, it seems most bike factories are based in Taiwan, which seems to have significantly better employee treatment and transparency of information. But I believe everyone should make their own decisions based on what's important to them.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubbreak View Post
    Devinci (not davinci) and I'm fairly certain all the frames are welded in Canada (and they brag final assembly is all done in house too).

    I'd love to find out for sure as it is surprising something like the entry level cameleon would be built in north american and be able to compete cost wise with all the other manufacturers that have contracted their entry level frames to Taiwan or other countries.
    I think rockie mountain bikes say the same thing about being make in Canada but not 100% sure.

  18. #68
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    Chris King has a great company right here in the US of A. Gives his workers full heath coverage, flex-time,etc. I will be able to give my Chris King headset to my grandson. That is unless the standards change again. Ever heard of a Chris King hub breaking? My Thompson Elite stem is 9 years old. It indestructible. I'll keep it as long as I have a fork to clamp it on.

    Good stuff can still be made, but people have forgotten "you get what you pay for". Take clothing. My original Polar Tech fleece vest still hasn't pilled. I've thrown away several others since. I used to get 4 or 5 years out of a pair of Levi jeans. Now I'm lucky if they last a year.

    Then there is the light bulb that's been burning in a firehouse in Livermore, CA since 1902. I'm just sayin'....

  19. #69
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyNeutron10101 View Post
    Defined Made in USA.

    because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?

    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are NOT USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are NOT naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in USA if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the USA?
    etc...

    Be specific if you're soooooooooooooooo concern about Made in USA.
    I see people slamming this guy for this post... but why?
    Hell... he even put 'smilies' on the end... supposedly to keep it friendly?
    Seriously... the OP asked specifically about bikes made in the USA.
    Never specified whether foreign made parts were ok or not.

    This whole debate about buying USA-made items gets a bit silly... really.
    The idea that if you buy foreign made items, especially those made in China, you are robbing Americans of jobs; sure... looks good if you only think it through superficially and emotionally.
    Trouble is... it's not that simple.
    I don't have a degree in economics or something like global trading and such, but even I know it's much more than just buying something assembled in the USA.

    It's easy to ask for a bike made in the U.S.of A. while being quiet about where the raw materials come from.
    I hear the same crap from people who ride Harley Yuppie Davidsons.
    Sure... it's an American company, but depending on how patriotic you want to get... it's really not an American-Made motorcycle.
    It's an American-Assembled motorcycle.
    Just not very romantic and buyer-inspiring I guess to advertise, "Our products are ALMOST 100% Made In The USA!"

    So... same thing with mountain bikes.
    Unless the carbon fiber, steel and aluminum from which the frames are assembled come from mills/plants within the U.S., I don't see how you can truly call it a bike "Made in the USA!".
    But most folks will... because they like to pick-and-choose a nice comfortable platform from which to stand while crying about American jobs.

    I see lots of folks who just love buying cheap food too... food imported from outside the US... while we subsidize US farms to overproduce while maintaining this image of the poor US farming family competing with beef from South America, fruit from all over the world, etc.
    Not sure how many of the Americans who cry about the family farms, and buying USA, actually dig into the background of their food... especially if they buy the stuff at the Dollar Store.
    The only ways I can think of to actually know you are buying US grown food is to buy it directly from the farm or grow it yourself.
    I do that to some degree... I buy when I can from our local Farmer's Market (and I know most of the farmers personally). We have dairy and beef farms locally and some of our markets even sell the milk products and beef from those families.


    Spin your argument how you like... but JimmyNeutron10101's post was actually one of the best here... in my American opinion anyway (technically I AM an American even if I wasn't produced in the USA... just naturalized-42yrs ago... but then my father was purportedly an American Air Force Airman so I am at least 1/2 Genuine American product I supose )

    I want the US to have a strong, economy and be as self-sufficient as possible.
    I do buy as much ACTUAL US-made/produced items as I possibly can depending on how much money I feel I can toss into the pot. Sometimes I will pay more for a local item than for one made somewhere else... to include outside the US.
    But I don't go waxing all patriotic about it when I realize it's mostly an empty argument... the one about ruining our country by buying items from outside our borders.
    There's so much more to it than just waving the flag around and shouting at each other... hypocrite vs the alleged un-American American.

    Oops... better put my smilies on so you know I'm not just another angry American... LOL

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyNeutron10101 View Post
    Defined Made in USA.

    because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?

    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are NOT USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are NOT naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in USA if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the USA?
    etc...

    Be specific if you're soooooooooooooooo concern about Made in USA.
    Here you go:
    Complying with the Made in USA Standard
    Killing it with close inspection.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsmac View Post
    I see people slamming this guy for this post... but why?....
    ....
    ....Oops... better put my smilies on so you know I'm not just another angry American... LOL
    Made in USA means all or virtually all of the product was made in the USA including sourced parts, however, there are products that are exceptions like vehicles as they are required to list % of origin. It's also more than being patriotic in the terms of helping your fellow country man out. Its patriotc because the government collects more taxes. If you haven't been paying attention lately, our government wants to drastically increase taxes. If we were all buying USA made products then taxes wouldn't be an issue. To me its so bad now that I don't give to charity, I buy American... it's a win-win situation. Someone gets a job and feeds their family while the government can collect enough taxes to stay afloat. Either way we are going to be paying the taxes so you might as well buy American. If you can't afford to buy an American made product or they just don't make a particular item here then at least buy from an American company.

    As far as food goes, fruits and vegetables list the country of origin so no need to go to a farmers market. (fyi: pesticides for US produce are regulated but regulations are different outside the US and they dont need to meet our standards to import them here)

    Killing it with close inspection.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireLikeIYA View Post
    Made in USA... ... here)

    ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALREADY!
    Enough with the smilies! I get the message!

    Creepy.... all those little round faces making.... faces.... at me

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    + rep

    The only thing that I don't fully agree with is the slave labour.
    Taiwanese welders are highly skilled and are well paid within their economic strata.
    This may not be the case in other countries.

    ...And it just may get a bit worse before better, China is now losing business to lower cost asian countries and some in developing Africa as Chineses labour costs are rising...

    However I have heard the same that you mention regarding shipping. The cost benefits of over-seas production are eaten by higher shipping costs, as well as higher production oversight costs due to being a large pond away. This is the main reason that high-quality Asian production is not any cheaper...

    So, if shipping costs becomes a bigger issue as we believe it will, this hopefully will spur manufactures to move production back home. Problem is then we have the lack of tech for the actual materials. So in the meantime do we then import the tube-sets and weld here, until we regain our mfg strength?

    IMO I think we have a ways to go before this happens. There is still too much emphasis placed on saving a penny or two by moving overseas. Board rooms are still applauding these steps as cost savings... (Look at Apple - how many billions in the bank do you need) However if everything is then produced overseas, how the he|| are we supposed to buy it with no job or a McJob that does not even provide a decent standard of living? If they want to continue to sell their products here, maybe they should take a look at the long-game.

    It's a mugs game.

    cheers

    michael

    This guy gets it.

    The US's "power" will never be manufacturing, it's innovation and coming up with new technology, new ways of doing things, new processes, new ways to increase efficiency (without necessarily being able to employ them with no end). Anyone who thinks we can have a factory crank out the same widgets for 40 years is just not living in reality. Machines will eventually be invented that can do a worker's job, and that machine doesn't need health care or retirement, so what do you do with the displaced worker? It's a good question, and not easily answered. The point of this is that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE will ALWAYS come up with a cheaper way to make or do something. The only thing that is constant in business is change, the second you rest on your heels, you get your a$$ handed to you. Finally US automakers are making somewhat competitive cars with decent mileage, but this is after nearly going out of business, federal mandates to increase mileage, and simply having their a$$es handed to them by asian manufacturers. Once we isolate, our businesses have no reason to improve and innovate as mentioned above, and then when something finally does come along, they are less able to adapt and compete, not to mention that when we isolate we got a company manufacturing and selling here, but other companies are manufacturing and selling ALL OVER THE WORLD, which makes them much more competitive and they are able to grow much bigger than our isolated US-only companies.

    As an example, I blame Bike Shops to some extent for their own hardships. The internet came. A few very keen bike shops opened E-stores. THOSE are the innovators that deserved (at that moment in time) to not go out of business. Bike shops have to make themselves competitive, they have to find new ways of doing business that attracts customers and business, they have to be active. Otherwise, if they are sitting there trying to do "what they've always done" and complain about the internet retailers, they deserve to go out of business. Things they can and should do: have group rides, have a website with parts inventory and local info, participate in races and events, build a pump-track (like behind a local shop where I lived in AZ did), have bike maintenance clinics-maybe at colleges and high schools, find ways to offer things and attract customers, and so on. It's not my job to keep them in business, it's their job to offer something that the public wants. You constantly have to reach out to new markets and come up with new ideas. How many bike shops have you heard complain about E-retailers? How many have actually done something about it? There are a few, and those are where the heart of US innovation and spirit lies.


    In the end, it sometimes costs more to build stuff here, the shipping as stated above is affecting that, which is a nice side-effect of the oil prices and increasing standards of living, but if you really want to "support american businesses" like the OP intends, you have to accept paying MORE for LESS. You have to accept a lower standard of living and your dollar bill doing less for you. That's not human nature though, we are pretty driven to maximize value and have a "better standard of living" for ourselves and our kids, even if it means sacrificing the long term for the short term materialistic gain.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  25. #75
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    There are some strong feelings in this thread about bikes (or goods in general) made in the USA. Many writers to this thread have strong opinions, and for good reason, the issue affects everyone.

    Most of us know that globalization means outsourcing local jobs. Why have a factory in the US when you can move it to Mexico or south east asia where there is a docile and cheap labour force working in what we would call horrendous and grim working conditions. No secrets here, lots of examples of companies doing this.

    One point to note is the US arms industry does not suffer from this phenomenon. The US designs and manufactures the most technically advanced weaponry in the world, from the M16 to the F22 and everything in between, all made in the USA, so there is nothing wrong with technically advanced mass production in the US. It should be noted that US spending on the military is almost equal to what the rest of the world combined spends on military.

    The real issue of Not made in the USA is the total lack of democracy in the USA. The US is only democratic if you are a corporation, because then you get the full weight of the US government acting on your behalf. The examples are everywhere:
    Banks are too large to fail - cited in the Wall St Journal - but if that is the case (and it is) wouldn't you want to make them smaller? After the $750 billion bail out package that Bush handed out the Banks became even bigger.
    Oil and Gas - this industry is now exempt from the clean water act. There's a good idea, the business of hydraulic fracking just became much less risky, industry can frack away and not worry about clean water anymore, they are exempt.
    Retail - look at Wal Mart - talk about a feudal system dating back to the middle ages, Wal Mart is a private company owned by the Waltons, a family of 5. One of the richest families in the world worth a combined $40 billion. they have approx 2 million peasants working for them called employees. If you work at Wal Mart and are not the CEO or part of his exec team then you are living around the poverty line because that is what Wal Mart pays, poverty wages, no benefits and they work and treat you like a dog, no better off than peasants from the middle ages.
    Education - the press goes on and on about how bad the education system is, what a drain on society it is. Take any business anywhere and cut funding and see how long it functions. In the US the trick is to cut funding to any social program and keep on cutting funding until it is completely broken and then everyone gives up on it and lets private industry take over.

    There is no democracy for the people in the US, its all there for the corporation. To quote a famous individual there is only one party in the US and it is the Business party which has two factions called republicans and democrats.

    In a real democracy people would have a say about where their tax dollars go, about their level of pay, about their health care system etc etc. But you don't in the US or even in Canada though Americans should note that somehow Canada manages to have a viable system of medicare that though not perfect does a good job of aiding the population without bankrupting the country. Americans could have something similar but are stuck with a fraudulent and highly inefficient private health insurance industry.

    There it is, people have no real say anymore. Electing a president and running a campaign costs billions of dollars and the only place you can get billions of dollars is from the corporate sector which if you think about it puts governments even further into the corporate pocket. As a last point check out the credentials of any white house economic advisor since the 1970's - they all have a finance background, all of them. The finance industry has been well looked after and continues to be well looked after, crisis after crisis.

  26. #76
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    Man I kind of disagree with quite a bit in these last few posts.

    1. We have traditionally manufactured some of the best products on the planet.
    2. Our manufacturing might is what brought us into WWII. It's what won WWII.

    The one thing I do agree with is that we generally can not do it cheaper. Not always but generally things made in China are inferior to their U.S. manufactured counter parts. I think bicycles are probably one of a handful of exceptions. Electronics are inferior, metals are generally inferior. Chinese stainless is complete garbage. Home electrics made in China are garbage. Most computers coming out of China are garbage, excepting apple. American manufacturing when it is done properly produces some of the finest products in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by knutso View Post
    Nations in a semi-peripheral position relative to the US, which produce items specifically to draw dollars into their country, should not be looked at as 'taking our jobs' but rather as supporting our higher standards of living and productivity.

    We Americans are the ones benefitting most from trade with peripheral nations. Its clear if you look at the mind-boggling amount of goods and labor we receive in exchange for what we ourselves produce. An example would be: a US real estate agent sells a house and uses the commision to buy a sweet bike .. Seemingly, the RA agent didn't work 'hard' enough to build a top-to-bottom bike from scratch but because of the willingness/desperation of other nations intent on functioning as peripheral economies, the purchasing/consumption power of the American worker is magnified.

    The strength of the dollar means the compensation I receive for my one day's work can buy the day's work of many. Hard to say that we are getting the raw end of the deal.
    Well put. The irony of this thread is that if we only bought American-made goods, our standard of living would be MUCH lower, and very few people would have enough disposable income for such niceties as a mountain bike.

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    No this is wrong. You create an endless cycle of devouring the middle class in America buying internationally made goods. You weaken our skills and power as a nation. Manufacturing is the engine that drives wealth and the middle class. The view cited above is a short term personal gain economic financial view that has long term dire consequences for the economy and the nation's position as a world power at large. Real estate agent? Really? One of the most overpaid low skill professions in the U.S.. I'm all over outsourcing those guys. LOL.
    Last edited by FX4; 11-19-2012 at 09:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    Well put. The irony of this thread is that if we only bought American-made goods, our standard of living would be MUCH lower, and very few people would have enough disposable income for such niceties as a mountain bike.
    Actually if more goods were made in the USA then everyone would have a MUCH higher standard of living. There would be more people gainfully employed in the economy.

    But that is not what corporate america wants, they want profits not gainful employment.

    There is no real trade with peripheral countries, it is mostly internal trade within a corporate entity. If AT&T decides to buy 1000 Apple computers for its new office it is simply a buy sell between two US companies. Those 1000 computers coming from Asia are entered into the import/export statistics but its not really what you would call trade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    No this is wrong. You create an endless cycle of devouring the middle class in America buying internationally made goods. You weaken our skills and power as a nation. Manufacturing is the engine that drives wealth and the middle class. The view cited above is a short term personal gain economic financial view that has long dire consequences for the economy and the nation's position as a world power at large. Real estate agent? Really? One of the most overpaid low skill professions in the U.S.. I'm all over outsourcing those guys. LOL.
    You are correct on all fronts except the US's position as a world power. There is no other country in the world that comes close to the US in military might, its an absolute no brainer that the US has the largest and most technically advanced military in all of human history. The US has a tight grip on the oil resources of the middle east further strengthening its position as the worlds biggest power.

    as for real estate agents they would have have it pretty tough right now.

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    My point is I don't think it will stay this way if we keep exporting our manufacturing. The ability of manufacturing nations to develop a military industrial complex such as ours increases as their manufacturing and technology prowess increases. Ours slows as we manufacture less and less. What I mean is fewer and fewer Americans know how to do things, I mean really do things, our ability to be innovative and keep our military at the top of the food chain is directly proportional to manufacturing in the U.S.. Do I hear Rome in the background saying been there, done that, it failed?

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    Oh and BTW, I have come up with just about everything made of top quality gear to build a U.S. made bike. Your wallet is going to hurt but it's doable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    Actually if more goods were made in the USA then everyone would have a MUCH higher standard of living. There would be more people gainfully employed in the economy.

    But that is not what corporate america wants, they want profits not gainful employment.

    There is no real trade with peripheral countries, it is mostly internal trade within a corporate entity. If AT&T decides to buy 1000 Apple computers for its new office it is simply a buy sell between two US companies. Those 1000 computers coming from Asia are entered into the import/export statistics but its not really what you would call trade.
    More correctly Wall Street wants higher profit and manufacturing abroad is a way to achieve it. Unfortunately contract manufacturing is the undoing of many corporations. Although in general I completely agree with you.

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    And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
    Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadwulff View Post
    And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
    Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!
    The truth is Hostess is failing because of bad management. It is not run by bakers, but by bankers. Hostess is owned by a hedge fund and for the last 8 years has run it into the ground. Now without a clue how to fix things, they are just going to sell off it's assets and take the money and run. It is not the unions fault.

    I had a non-union profession - IT, I got continually downsized and out sourced until I was making less than when I started 15 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, I was making less than my public sector job in 1996. I WISH I was in a union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NastyHabits View Post
    The truth is Hostess is failing because of bad management. It is not run by bakers, but by bankers. Hostess is owned by a hedge fund and for the last 8 years has run it into the ground. Now without a clue how to fix things, they are just going to sell off it's assets and take the money and run. It is not the unions fault.

    I had a non-union profession - IT, I got continually downsized and out sourced until I was making less than when I started 15 years ago. Adjusted for inflation, I was making less than my public sector job in 1996. I WISH I was in a union.
    No the truth is the hedge funds bought up the debt of failing Hostess and tried to save them. They still felt their was value and relieved the company of half the debt it owed. In the end the unions wanted more for the employees than the market will bear. The reality is the union feels it's labor is worth more than it is. Now as far as your comments on IT, I don't know what part you are in but IT has done very well for me over the years. I had one shop go union and I left because of it. I told my employer I don't want this on my resume and gave notice. Perhaps you are not keeping your skills up to date?

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    Not everyone can work IT and not everyone is cut out to be a global account manager. There is nothing wrong with being a clerk in a Wal Mart for example, but what is wrong is the wages and lack of benefits that are paid to said worker, especially when the owners have more money than they know what to do with. And that is something the govt could easily change. The govt did deregulate the banking industry to the benefit of nobody except the banks. Why cant they regulate Wal Mart to pay its workers better wages and benefits?

    Not sure why anyone is arguing about liberals, there is very little difference between democrats and republicans, it doesn't matter who is in the white house because it is corporate america who pull the strings, the american people are second and third class citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbadwulff View Post
    And pretty soon you won't have Twinkies made in the USA. Some people think it's better to not have a job than try to milk everything they can out of a company. When will the American worker wake up and smell reality?!
    Liberals are getting exactly what they are asking for. No companies, no jobs, no reliable energy source. Quit yer *****in, this is what you wanted. You made this bed, now lay in it!
    Unions do get greedy and sometimes seem more interested in saving the union more than the actual worker. But Hostess made products that aren't as popular as they used to be and frankly they just didn't keep up with the times.

    Quick question: why do liberal blue states have most of the biggest companies and jobs? I'm in the SF Bay Area, we have Apple, Google, Facebook, Cisco, EBay, etc (I could go on) right out the door? The reddest states have the highest numbers of people on welfare and they always seem to lack good jobs other than say chicken killing ...

    I think it may be time for you to turn off Fox News and except reality, unlike Karl Rove.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Unions do get greedy and sometimes seem more interested in saving the union more than the actual worker. But Hostess made products that aren't as popular as they used to be and frankly they just didn't keep up with the times.

    Quick question: why do liberal blue states have most of the biggest companies and jobs? I'm in the SF Bay Area, we have Apple, Google, Facebook, Cisco, EBay, etc (I could go on) right out the door? The reddest states have the highest numbers of people on welfare and they always seem to lack good jobs other than say chicken killing ...

    I think it may be time for you to turn off Fox News and except reality, unlike Karl Rove.
    Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...
    As a Bay Area native, most of our manufacturing has moved off shore actually (North Carolina is still too expensive) - which is sad. But this idea that liberals have chased all the jobs away is absurd. I'll bet the economic output of the Bay Area is much greater than the entire state of North Carolina - heck, I bet Apple has enough cash on hand to buy that state and a couple more.

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    Keep in mind SF and NYC are two of the most expensive places in the country to live. Both states have more than their fair share of problems.

    If Wal Mart does'nt provide a million 4th grade educated works employement. Who will? My family and I choose not to shop at WM due to the quality of their product's. Not their business practices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Umm, as a Bay Area native I can say safely that manufacturing has moved to right to work states like North Carolina as well as off shore while states like California lose manufacturing jobs at a massive rate. They don't call the blue Northeast the rust belt for no reason...
    That's because some people still don't really know what the USs power really is. It WAS manufacturing at one time, as we were "ahead" of the world in that way. These ways powerhouses in East Asia and other places can manufacture whatever they want, and it will be on par with what we can make. Apple, Google, and all those companies, they invent "new stuff". That's where it's at. Just look at the "app" market now! Otherwise, someone is always going to manufacture things cheaper.

    At some point, it's ridiculous and the corporation is not attempting to run a successful business, they are just trying to increase shareholder value. The two do not go hand in hand. I doubt there are a lot of examples of unions demanding unreasonable wages and benefits, but at some point, it's better for a company to not exist rather than barely squeak by paying substandard wages. Then the "blood" of industry and innovation is renewed and another company can spring up in it's wake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    That's because some people still don't really know what the USs power really is. It WAS manufacturing at one time, as we were "ahead" of the world in that way. These ways powerhouses in East Asia and other places can manufacture whatever they want, and it will be on par with what we can make. Apple, Google, and all those companies, they invent "new stuff". That's where it's at. Just look at the "app" market now! Otherwise, someone is always going to manufacture things cheaper.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    .
    I hear this explanation of the "better" business model a lot. Basically, the U.S. will have the better jobs and make the real money. The problem with that is that not everyone is an inventor or designer. Not everyone likes to work with computers. One persons idea of a better job is something the next person will hate. It really reminds me of the "service economy" BS that all the smart idiots were blathering about 20 years ago.

    More to the point though is looking at how many people are employed in manufacturing operations. There is a research paper that was published by the California Research Bureau in the late 90's. It has some very interesting numbers, but just a couple of examples I remember. Between 1987 and 1995, IBM reduced it's U.S. workforce from 406,000 to 202,000. General Motors had 800,000 employees in 1980, and had 450,000 in 1990. There are just tons of other examples like these if you look into it. These companies continued to design and develop here in the U.S., but much of the manufacturing was outsourced. Do you really believe that 350,000 former G.M. assembly line workers went on to a second career as a software engineer?

    Go back to college and get an education. that will fix them up right. Why do you think wages for college degree jobs are going down? Maybe more people with degrees than there are jobs that require them?

    Honestly, large manufacturing operations are excellent jobs for people without specialized skill sets. When a high school graduate with basically no specialized training can go to work on an assembly line hanging parts on a car as it goes by, or running a stamp press turning a couple bucks worth of sheet metal into a several hundred dollar fender, they are being productive, making money for the company, and in the process make a pretty good pay check and benefits for themselves. Jobs like those allowed them to make enough money to buy a home, raise a family, buy a car, go out to dinner and so on. And they could do all that without having to run up $30 or $40 thousand dollars in student loans.

    As those jobs go away, those people are working at the X-Mart for a fraction of the pay. The reason X-mart is doing so much business is that half the people in town are broke and trying save pennies on any bill they can. Of course half the town is broke because so many of the jobs are gone.

    The other stripe of X-mart shopper are people that still make a decent wage, but shop where they can get the lowest price. Hey, after all, it really doesn't matter where the stuff is made since it is a global economy anyway right?

    To some of the posters that have said it is stupid to pay more for a bike frame that is made in the U.S. because maybe the tubeset wasn't made here, or maybe the ore wasn't mined here, I have to ask. Do you really think there is no value in employing a skilled welder in your own neighborhood because the tubes he is welding were made somewhere else?

    Sorry if this comes off as a rant, but I know too many people that have been affected by this very thing and it is near and dear to me. Especially when people tell me that I really don't understand how these thing work.
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  44. #94
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    You are exactly right. It goes way beyond low skilled labor on the line being employed at good wages too. There are all the professionals, management, IT, etc. that don't have jobs either. Really if you want to get down to the bottom line it's people rationalizing not supporting their own economy. I find it kind of funny often these same guys are complaining about how the economy sucks and how they can't find a good paying job. Well duh! Personally I buy as much made in the U.S. as I reasonably can. When it comes to cars, ironically the Japanese brands often produce more U.S. jobs than their American counterparts. Bicycles I'm still figuring it out. Twelve years ago it was not a problem buying a U.S. made bike, now for the most part you are over 2k for a road bike and 5k for a mountain bike.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    As a Bay Area native, most of our manufacturing has moved off shore actually (North Carolina is still too expensive) - which is sad. But this idea that liberals have chased all the jobs away is absurd. I'll bet the economic output of the Bay Area is much greater than the entire state of North Carolina - heck, I bet Apple has enough cash on hand to buy that state and a couple more.
    You would be surprised at the number of companies that used to manufacture in California now doing it in North Carolina. No it's not cheap, but it's doable and profitable. North Carolina has a strong manufacturing economy. They keep the unions out and regulations down to a reasonable level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyNeutron10101 View Post
    Defined Made in USA.

    because no big item products I can think of is made in the USA. It may say Made in the USA but how sure are you that the raw materials are from the USA? Did they mined the iron from a USA site? Did every chemical component in the paint come from a USA plant? Did the grease come from a USA plant that manufacture the grease using all USA chemicals in a USA lab?

    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are NOT USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are USA Citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in the USA consist of Asians that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are NOT naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in the USA if the entire company in Asia consist of all USA citizenship that are naturalized USA citizens?
    Is it consider Made in USA if everything is brought in oversea and assemble in the USA?
    etc...

    Be specific if you're soooooooooooooooo concern about Made in USA.
    Jimmy, with all due respect, im pretty sure the OP asked if ''any bikes were made in the US'' i didnt see him ask if every component down to the grease was made there, thats just ridiculous, of course every component is not gonna be made there, and then to go on and talk about whether the people that made it are naturalised USA citizens etc etc, Jimmy are you just takin da piss, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Troll View Post
    Keep in mind SF and NYC are two of the most expensive places in the country to live. Both states have more than their fair share of problems.

    If Wal Mart does'nt provide a million 4th grade educated works employement. Who will? My family and I choose not to shop at WM due to the quality of their product's. Not their business practices.
    The education system has failed those millions of Walmart workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    You would be surprised at the number of companies that used to manufacture in California now doing it in North Carolina. No it's not cheap, but it's doable and profitable. North Carolina has a strong manufacturing economy. They keep the unions out and regulations down to a reasonable level.
    Even if we banned all unions and starting dumping toxins in our creeks, it would never be a good deal to manufacture in the land of $500k houses.

    N. Carolina's GDP is ranked 10th in the US, which shows they're doing something right. Their per capita GDP is only ranked 31 which shows lower wages and lower productivity on average.

    They're also still behind a couple "rust belt" states and California blows them and most countries out of the water of course.

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    Yes both are true and NC still has some of the old South about it, but it is changing fast. Some rust belt states like Pa where I live are working hard to change. California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
    Yes both are true and NC still has some of the old South about it, but it is changing fast. Some rust belt states like Pa where I live are working hard to change. California is just a mess. When I grew up there it was the third largest economy in the world and had a surplus budget. Now look at it. High unemployment and deficits for as far as the eye can see. It's all but officially bankrupt and the citizens voted to drive the wealthy out. Many of the state's most successful will leave when the new taxes on the wealthier kick in. What a mess.
    You'd think Cane Creek could still make headsets in NC given the superior labor environment - last one I got was Asia of course.

    California has been going down the tubes for 40 years; yet we still invent everything that matters (iPhones and mountain biking come to mind) ... and that's what will move the state forward - not low wage manufacturing jobs. California is a boom and bust state like no other - oddly silicon valley companies are hiring again and we're leading the housing recovery.

    Now to the question that really matters ... do we mountain bike, surf or ski the day after turkey day?

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