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  1. #1
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    650b Conspiracy or Grassroots?

    This was brought up in the UCI disc thread. Sure, all that follows has been said many times before, but maybe someone out there has been living in a cave for the past few years.

    I never really followed the 650b cult thing. It was going on here at MTBR with discussion on conversion and acquiring hard to find rims and tires. Seemed pretty obscure and then a few smaller makers came out with the new size and I thought it was going to be like the single speed thing. Then BOOM, 26 was gone, seemingly overnight. Some think it's an industry conspiracy. I don't think the industry is organized enough for that. I think the bike manufacturers didn't want to get caught out of the loop like some did when 29 exploded. Conspiracy theories are very popular these days, but in realty take incredible organization and operational security.

    Last year, I got a new bike, and it was 650b. I like the way 650b rolls off the tongue the way that 27.5 never can. Anyway, I didn't notice the new size much until I hit a rock garden that is on one of our local trails. The better rollover was noticeably better. Now my friends are all on 650b and most of them noticed more improvement that I did. Partly because my old bike was probably better than their old bikes.

    After following MTBR for 20 years I can say that every change has sparked heated debate and this was no different.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  2. #2
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    I'd say somewhere between, but closer to conspiracy. Actually I'd like to see a poll on this subject.
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  3. #3
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    I think it was done to light a fire under the ass of a rapidly boring subject called "mountain biking".

    When 29er came out, I abstained for as long as I could but I eventually drank the koolaid, and bam, I was hooked. Not only did 29er smooth out the chatter and bumps that 26" offered up, it climbed way, way better. But, it required wider turns and that was a problem in my switchback laced land of riding. A lot of people complained about it, too.

    Enter 650b. Said to be the best of both worlds. Not quite. But it does like to make tight turns which made me more than happy enough to own one.

    So, I have a short travel (120/100) FS 29er for XC riding and a mid travel (140/140) FS 650b for the gnar.

    Couldn't be happier.

  4. #4
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    My new bike has 27.5 inch rims. Not sure if I feel any advantages over 26 inch rims. I know it's a pig. It takes forever to get up to speed. My old Gary Fisher was quick of the line. Maybe it has something to do with weight. That old Fisher was made in '97, all Cromoly. Weighed in around 24 pounds. This new bike weighs in around 33.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb_ATX840 View Post
    I'd say somewhere between, but closer to conspiracy. Actually I'd like to see a poll on this subject.
    why? it is what it is.

    most people are convinced that it's better or not better and no amount of arguing is going to change their mind. it's a pointless conversation.

    not to mention most people vote with their wallet and the bike companies respond accordingly, so there may be your answer.

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  6. #6
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    As someone who has been on 650b since 2009 I have followed the whole thing a little closer than most. The vast majority of major manufacturers dismissed 650b, some even saying it was the "worst of both worlds", the most vocal being Specialized who was so invested in 29ers. Most of the industry was dragged kicking and screaming into making 650b bikes. Santa Cruz, who had bikes that were very popular for conversions, said they saw no point in 650b. On One's designer Brant regularly went on anti 650b rants. All of those companies now make 650b bikes. I was so skeptical that the size would ever gain traction that I was stocking up on tires and rims. So those that say it was some kind of industry conspiracy simply weren't there at the beginning, it was very much a grass roots movement with Kirk Pacenti as our champion.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kona0197 View Post
    My new bike has 27.5 inch rims. Not sure if I feel any advantages over 26 inch rims. I know it's a pig. It takes forever to get up to speed. My old Gary Fisher was quick of the line. Maybe it has something to do with weight. That old Fisher was made in '97, all Cromoly. Weighed in around 24 pounds. This new bike weighs in around 33.
    Lol. You think almost 10 pounds would make a difference?

    Ya think???

    If it makes you feel any better, the 'new' 29er I got weighs what feels like 30lbs, and that's with the carbon frame and rims.

    Ride it and shaddup.

  8. #8
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    I remember 650b starting to turn heads when Nino started winning UCI races.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    I don't think the industry is organized enough for that. I think the bike manufacturers didn't want to get caught out of the loop like some did when 29 exploded. Conspiracy theories are very popular these days, but in realty take incredible organization and operational security.
    Agreed.
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  10. #10
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    Although I admit to having been 650b curious, it was only the advent of 650b plus that won me over. I couldn't get my 29er hoops any fatter, and I was wondering if 650b+ would be a bit more nimble than a 29er. Got a Pony Rustler, and it is more nimble, yet even more stable and easy to handle. This is new bike #7 for me over 18 yrs, and the funnest of them all.

    I don't see any conspiracy, just an industry always trying to get a leg up by offering something new and maybe better. Grassroots wins out in the end in any case. If we don't buy it, it goes away in short order.
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  11. #11
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    I would say it's more like the industry painted itself into a corner, then stumbled upon a plan that worked out. For many years, the bike industry had been shoving 29ers down the consumer's throats, and outside of the XC segment which was quite receptive to them, they'd been getting a fair amount of push back from riders. 29ers were starting to plateau and going back to 26ers would be admitting that 29ers were a mistake.

    Enter 650B, it's different from 26 but for the most part it's fairly similar in the way it handles. The industry can now introduce a new size to eventually replace 26 without screwing up their 29er sales, the narrative now becomes "650B is new & totally awesome" instead of "damnit, we screwed up, 26 is still better than 29".

  12. #12
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    The rise of 650b is another example of how you don't need Illuminati conspiracy theories to see how the masses will sign on to ideas that are to their disadvantage.

    (this is not a comment on the superiority/inferiority of 650b)
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  13. #13
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    companies like KHS and Jamis Scott were behind a conspiracy? what about all the boutique companies? I guess it could be givn all of the other conspriacies from the past like:

    hydraulic disc brakes
    suspension
    telescoping suspension
    telescoping suspension with dampening(. this was the worst conspiracy of all)
    internet retailers, etc...

    Come to think of it, the bicycle is a conspiracy,

    Sincerely,

    The aching feet of a luddite

  14. #14
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    What if all the bike companies joined forces and formed a super power that actually governed what you could or could not ride?

    Let's say that they made it illegal (yes, they actually had laws passed) to roll on anything except for 650b.

    Furthermore, they had all items related to 26" and 29" wheels, rims, and tires removed from the market and made illegal to sell or possess.

    How many of you would stop mountain biking forever?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    What if all the bike companies joined forces and formed a super power that actually governed what you could or could not ride?

    Let's say that they made it illegal (yes, they actually had laws passed) to roll on anything except for 650b.

    Furthermore, they had all items related to 26" and 29" wheels, rims, and tires removed from the market and made illegal to sell or possess.

    How many of you would stop mountain biking forever?
    mountain biking would be even more exciting, there would be black market smugglers and dealers. plus there would be double the thrill when poaching trails at night! you really wouldn't want to get caught.

    which brings up a good point, i didn't think it was possible, but i would be even more of a bad-ass. :P I would probably need to hire body guards to protect me from all the women that couldn't restrain themselves.

    ah the wonderful world of f̶a̶n̶t̶a̶s̶y̶ ̶ delusion.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    What if all the bike companies joined forces and formed a super power that actually governed what you could or could not ride?

    Let's say that they made it illegal (yes, they actually had laws passed) to roll on anything except for 650b.

    Furthermore, they had all items related to 26" and 29" wheels, rims, and tires removed from the market and made illegal to sell or possess.

    How many of you would stop mountain biking forever?
    Oh, so you're writing speculative conspiracy theory fiction.

    When's the 'Pedal Turner Diaries' coming out?

  17. #17
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    I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but they are entertaining. Anyone who works in development of any consumer product knows there is a constant drive for innovation or new stuff. Once the market platueas there is no growth. You need innovation or a "new and improved " product to drive sales and marketing. If you think about your existing product its works for you at a level of about let's say 95%. The new and improved has about 5% of improvement room. Now for some people shelling out big bucks for 1-5% improvement is worth it, like anyone racing looking for the small edge. Everyone else just having fun on the trails likely get very little benefit. The placebo effect takes over and you convince yourself that your purchase is justified. Your brain likes to think its decisions are right. Marketers know this and give you just enough marginal evidence to say it's better. It in fact may be better, but the cost to improvement ratio is very small. So the best advice is if you were buying a new bike, sure get the new stuff, but if your old bike works for you no reason to shell out big bucks.

    The things that contribute to the new bikes being better are the geometry and better suspension. The wheel size has very little to do with it.

  18. #18
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    Someone about 15 years ago realized that 26 wheels weren't necessarily ideal. 29ers roll onto the scene. Then someone realized that 29ers weren't ideal for every situation. Folks wanted a bit more rollover than 26 but without the heft of 29. 27.5. Its not a conspiracy, its progress and we have some great choices now. Why is this continually being discussed?
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  19. #19
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    There was a large noticeable difference in ride qualities between 26 and 29... I think the reason the 650b debate got so heated is because there is very little benefit on either end. Of course the industry is selling it as a "happy medium" but I just don't buy it. To me, they keep making these micro adjustments and selling it as "better" yet 99% of riders out there aren't going to notice a difference. I honestly believe that in the cycling world, a lot of trends are driven by "who has the new cool thing".

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljsmith View Post
    As someone who has been on 650b since 2009 I have followed the whole thing a little closer than most. The vast majority of major manufacturers dismissed 650b, some even saying it was the "worst of both worlds", the most vocal being Specialized who was so invested in 29ers. Most of the industry was dragged kicking and screaming into making 650b bikes. Santa Cruz, who had bikes that were very popular for conversions, said they saw no point in 650b. On One's designer Brant regularly went on anti 650b rants. All of those companies now make 650b bikes. I was so skeptical that the size would ever gain traction that I was stocking up on tires and rims. So those that say it was some kind of industry conspiracy simply weren't there at the beginning, it was very much a grass roots movement with Kirk Pacenti as our champion.
    THIS is the truth. I was the first person my LBS ever laced up a 650b rim for. It was just a small little improvement that you could trick out your 26er, *if it would fit.

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    I don't know most riders expected when they first rode a 27.5" bike( or those the at have never spent time on one, but like to comment aways) I built my first 650 that's what they were called back then) in 2009, actually converted my Bianchi SS into the bigger wheels, it was a noticeable difference, maybe not like going from 26" to 29", but still better.
    A 29er, you do feel an immediate difference, is it a better difference? Some say yes, others no, for me, I didn't like 29ers.
    I think the biggest misconception in regards to 29ers, and I've heard it time and time again, that 29ers climb better than all others, maybe true on rock strewn climbs, but I've found everywhere else, that the bigger wheels are a hinderance, just my conclusions.
    Although I'm commenting, do we really need to bring this subject up again? We all have our own preferences, just ride what works for you, be it 26,27.5, 29 or any of the plus sizes, because no one here is going to change mind onto what works for me.

  22. #22
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    I still don't understand - I get that 650 isn't that much different than 26, but what is the rub? You need a new bike, you don't like 29ers, so you get a 650 now instead of a 26..who cares (if they truly aren't that much different)? You can still buy stuff for your old 26er if you love it that much, but at some point, things move on. I just got my wife a 650 - she is just too short (5'2") to ride a 29er (she tried....all wheels she said). I have tooled around on it...it doesn't feel that much different than 26 and its certainly smaller than a 29er.
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  23. #23
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    I was not "there," but I can almost guarantee that people were having the same discussion when Rockshox came out.

    I would like to try riding a 650B hardtail similar to my 29er HT but the general consensus with the locals there is that 29" is a better option for the local chunk.
    Last edited by mack_turtle; 04-17-2016 at 05:17 PM.

  24. #24
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    Mook: Look, Oog, me just invent wheel!
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasp4Air View Post
    Although I admit to having been 650b curious, it was only the advent of 650b plus that won me over. I couldn't get my 29er hoops any fatter, and I was wondering if 650b+ would be a bit more nimble than a 29er. Got a Pony Rustler, and it is more nimble, yet even more stable and easy to handle. This is new bike #7 for me over 18 yrs, and the funnest of them all.

    I don't see any conspiracy, just an industry always trying to get a leg up by offering something new and maybe better. Grassroots wins out in the end in any case. If we don't buy it, it goes away in short order.
    Congratulations, even though you don't quite realize it, you've just proven to yourself that wheelsize doesn't matter, frame design does. 27+ is just short of 29ers in diameter, but are heavier....so why would the wheel/tire combo be more nimble?

    Back to the origninal subject, 650b IS real, and has benefits, which is why it's taken over the DH and Enduro bike segments. It's usage in other segments should be like Trek clearly says and lays out, ride the biggest wheel you can fit on...which isn't what's happening because the hype machine likes to take any good thing for one application, and try to use it in all applications.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Congratulations, even though you don't quite realize it, you've just proven to yourself that wheelsize doesn't matter, frame design does. 27+ is just short of 29ers in diameter, but are heavier....so why would the wheel/tire combo be more nimble?
    I wouldn't make any generalizations, nor claim to fully understand the nuances of why the Pony Rustler feels more "nimble" than my RIP9. We're hardly comparing apples to apples, although the frame specs are similar, and the effective wheel diameter is within 3/4 of an inch. I was not claiming the Rustler feels nimbler because it's nominally 650b. How one frame and cockpit setup feels compared to another cannot likely be traced to a single geometry measurement or setup. My statement was that the Rustler, compared to the RIP9, felt a bit nimbler. Your guess as to why would be as good as mine, which is to say, a guess.

    All I claim to know is my impressions from riding these two bikes as they are set up for me. And you needn't congratulate me, I haven't proven anything.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasp4Air View Post
    I wouldn't make any generalizations, nor claim to fully understand the nuances of why the Pony Rustler feels more "nimble" than my RIP9. We're hardly comparing apples to apples, although the frame specs are similar, and the effective wheel diameter is within 3/4 of an inch. I was not claiming the Rustler feels nimbler because it's nominally 650b. How one frame and cockpit setup feels compared to another cannot likely be traced to a single geometry measurement or setup. My statement was that the Rustler, compared to the RIP9, felt a bit nimbler. Your guess as to why would be as good as mine, which is to say, a guess.

    All I claim to know is my impressions from riding these two bikes as they are set up for me. And you needn't congratulate me, I haven't proven anything.
    A quick guess would be that one is a trail bike and another is an XC bike. XC bikes aren't known to be the best handling bikes, or be confidence inspiring.

    27+ is not a lightweight setup, and the diameter of the wheels (which for purposes of handling is virtually identical) mostly effects packaging, so what are you left with? Do you think that if you put a 29er wheel/tire combo on the bike that it would have an effect on handling? Why? THAT is how you tell the difference in 27+ vs 29er handlng. Otherwise, you're just comparing two different frames that happen to have different wheel/tire combos on them.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by richde View Post
    Otherwise, you're just comparing two different frames that happen to have different wheel/tire combos on them.
    Exactly the point I was trying to make.
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  29. #29
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    When I was at Outerbike a month ago I overheard two industry guys talking about the new 28.25. Release date next spring.

    How's that for a conspiracy theory?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeanMan View Post
    When I was at Outerbike a month ago I overheard two industry guys talking about the new 28.25. Release date next spring.

    How's that for a conspiracy theory?
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  31. #31
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    My favorite bike of all time is a 2012 Orbea Occam. It had 26inch wheels, 120mm of travel front and rear and absolutely ripped everywhere. There are still trails that despite four years of bike developement I cannot match the times I put down.

    When I sold that bike it looked new, rode like new and I got absolutely nothing for it. People only wanted 27.5 or 29 inch wheels. I put myself in that category too, I really wanted to try a new 27.5 bike. I bought a Santa Cruz 5010. I discovered quickly if 27.5 wheels were "better", they weren't good enough to overcome an inferior suspension design.
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  32. #32
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    I work in a different industry and companies will do what customers spend money on.

    Enthusiasts like to *engage* in a hobby. After a while everyone wants to try something new. The industry will cater to this desire by offering new products. Even if the improvement is incremental or debatable, it gives enthusiasts something to try. It makes people happy to have something else to tinker with. Happiness has value, people pay for happiness.

    The industry is just thankful that people are aligning behind 27.5 so that they can at least kill off 26 and not have to support both sizes. Fragmentation is a nightmare for manufacturers.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Sure, all that follows has been said many times before, but ....
    But nothing. This thread is about 3 years late. Go back and read those threads, nothing new will be said here.

    But, I'll go ahead and rewrite what I wrote back then, just for fun.

    Edit: changed my mind, not participating

  34. #34
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    while it might feel like a conspiracy to some, it is not.

    That said at a certain point in the last few years all the big boys realized that unless they went to 27.5 and ditched 26 they would be left behind and this also presented a great opportunity to create a force point for users to have to purchase a new Bike since eventually 26 wheels and tires will be harder to acquire.

    Is it better than 26? If it is, only the pro's can really tell a difference. I currently ride a 26inch bike that is 10 years old. I can still run segments on Strava faster than some of the buys on 27.5 bikes... but we are talking about seconds, not a big deal and I only beat "some" of them, others are faster than me, and strava is probably wrong anyways.

    I ride because I enjoy it and it is the most fun way to get my much needed exercise. One day I will have saved up enough to purchase a new bike and when I do it will be a 27.5 because that is what is available new, not because I feel it will be some sort of huge improvement over a 26 inch bike.

    Heck, I run Kenda Negevals on my 2006 Kona Coiler.... They are probably as tall as many tires that come on 27.5 inch rims... who cares, I am out riding my bike and having fun.
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  36. #36
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    I didn't notice much difference when I went to 27.5 and then formed an opinion that the differences were negligible.

    However, the 27.5 bike is significantly different than the 26 bike that it replaced and that likely had an impact on my impressions.

    Two of the same frame would have been a better comparison.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    why? it is what it is.

    most people are convinced that it's better or not better and no amount of arguing is going to change their mind. it's a pointless conversation.

    not to mention most people vote with their wallet and the bike companies respond accordingly, so there may be your answer.

    ride what you like
    Pointless yes...until you go into a well stocked and very professional bike shop in your neighborhood to look for a quality 26" tire and all they stock are tires meant to be put on the BSO's that come into their shop for tune-ups. Not really the fault of the shop, as they can only afford to stock what they speculate will move/sell in a timely manner.

    People voting with their wallet? When the only choices are what the bike companies decide you want that is called settling...not voting. The consumer in this case is responding accordingly to the bike companies.

    And for that matter...those calling it a conspiracy...that is just stupid. It is simply marketing...no high level coordination required. It is simply reactionary....a few manufacturers speculate it might sell, someone wins a race on a bike running X material/design/component/color/etc or it shows up in a booth at Sea Otter or some other venue, other manufacturers see it and fear being left behind in profits from "The Next Big Thing!" and then kablam: new standard that has no real benefit over the old standard.

    Many things have an engineering reason for becoming an accepted standard. Disc brakes are a huge advantage off-road compared to rim brakes...easy to check that with math and testing. Headset standards are another thing...going from 1" to larger sizes and from threaded to "threadless"/Aheadset is also sound. There are many other instances where the change is really for the better. Arguably 29ers have a valid place in the sport. It is an improvement...for the right rider, event, trail, circumstance....over 26".

    But I have yet to see the real benefit between 26" and 27.5/650b for off-road bikes. How it has changed what is available in shops for retail purchase is just commanded by marketing, not engineering/science.

    No conspiracy, just bullsh*t.

    Enjoy drinking the kool-aid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    I was not "there," but I can almost guarantee that people were having the same discussion when Rockshox came out.

    I was "there" then. There were some riders that believed that the suspension fork added too much weight, but most people that I knew thought "thank God, at last we won't have our hands beat to crap.". I recall a lot of acceptance of the new RS1 suspension fork.

    Of course there wasn't much of an internet back then for raging arguments.
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  39. #39
    **** this ****
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bokchoicowboy View Post
    Pointless yes...until you go into a well stocked and very professional bike shop in your neighborhood to look for a quality 26" tire and all they stock are tires meant to be put on the BSO's that come into their shop for tune-ups. Not really the fault of the shop, as they can only afford to stock what they speculate will move/sell in a timely manner.
    Just the industry putting the last nails in the LBS coffin.

    Direct sales should help a lot with that too, especially for those brands who were previously very successful marketing-wise...

  40. #40
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    You guys think these wheel size wars and e-bikes are a big deal? Wait til you get your eyes (and mind) on the v-bike (virtual bike). You'll never need to leave your home again...

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    I have to chime in to be the devil's advocate here. I just went from a 2013 specialized enduro expert 26 to a similar geometry, similarly spec'ed 27.5 bike. I know what I'm doing when it comes to suspension set up and tire choice, so no, those aren't factors.

    I used to think there would be not too noticeable of a difference going to 650b. However, that hasn't been the case.

    I bought the 26 because I figured it would be more "fun" and playful. It definitely was. I went 27.5 because I needed a bigger frame and the industry is now 27.5 or 29.

    After a getting comfortable on the bike and pushing it on familiar sections, it's clear that the bigger wheels get you what you might logically conclude - some of the benefits of a 29 and some of a 26. For going fast, this is where I see a big advantage. It's not quite as unwieldy as a 29er wheel, but feels more like a proportional size for a mountain bike wheel for me (5'10, 165#)

    Was the 26 holding me back? No, riders adapt and every trail is different. Did it slow me down? Maybe a bit during balls-out riding, but in general, no. What are the tradeoffs? Well, it's definitely just that much harder to whip, scrub, table, spin (if you try it), manual and bunny hop. Its also harder to get "trialsy" on for trailside features and when you get yourself in a bad spot in some tech and want to hop and wheelie your way out. Not as much harder as an equivalent 29er.

    It's better for eating up most mtb terrain at speed, and has better slow speed stability (e.g. in uphill rock gardens, still carrying some momentum). This is why you see the "advantage", because most people don't care about what they lose from the 26, but every advantage is reasonable. So they can effectively sell you a better product that way.

    Was it necessary for the industry to rapidly switch? No. Was it pushed heavily and marketed to the moon? Yeah. Not as revolutionary as disc brakes or air forks, of course, but I'd wager to say it's way more of a benefit than freaking 11 and 12 speed!

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

  42. #42
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    Not life changing. If you were running a bike company would you have stuck with 26 when everyone else went 650b? I certainly would not
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    Not life changing. If you were running a bike company would you have stuck with 26 when everyone else went 650b? I certainly would not
    This ^^

    It's a domino effect once the majority sees that someone else (in this case, I would say Jamis was the catalyst) is making a profit off of the newer product. Then the big guys come out with offerings, people buy them and like them, more people want the "new" thing, bike companies make more and more of them, etc etc

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

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    So if you take the true wheel sizes of 622 650 and 700 and combine them with the numbers of the false prophets of the industry that distribute lies as well as different wheel sizes 660 698 736 combine those numbers and average them you get 677.666

    Now everyone knows that redemption is the pioneer sign of angel number 677 meaning. You have never believed in a higher of the 29r You grew in a very hippie 26 wheel environment. You think of realistic things like how awesome the 27.5 wheel is. You rely on practicality and facts. You have realized that there is no algorithm on life. It is your time to get redeemed.

    And what about the 666 well obviously it is the sign of a evil industry feeding us false signs taking us away from our true belief that the perfect bike really is possible.

    I dig my 26 hardtail

    Love my 29r

    Covet a 27.5 5 inch all mountain

    It is not the industries fault it is us we all want the perfect bike.

    Btw was hoping averaging the sizes came out to 666 then did a google search of the meaning of 677 Internet has some great content.

    Angel Number 677 Meaning | Sun Signs

  45. #45
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    Well done Gallo.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    It is not the industries fault it is us we all want the perfect bike.
    This is a very true statement.

    It's unfortunate we keep buying imperfect bikes over and over, continuously deluding ourselves as to their true nature.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    I remember 650b starting to turn heads when Nino started winning UCI races.
    Generously, one out of a thousand or folks who walk into a bike shop and buy a bike actually know who Nino Shurter is.
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Generously, one out of a thousand or folks who walk into a bike shop and buy a bike actually know who Nino Shurter is.
    That may be true, but .02 is this is when the industry started to take notice. I would get online and see articles about 650b and how it's the next coming of the messiah.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

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