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  1. #1
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    Small milling machines (is the one you are using any good?)

    We all know that a big machines are better than a small machine but as a hobby there are limits in terms of workspace size and budget. Small machines are also easier and cheaper to move around. The question is what is the minimal size to be useful.

    What do you guys think of a small gear head mill like a Grizzly G1126 and/or other similar mills that are under 900 pounds.
    G1126 Gear-Head Mill/Drill

    Are any of you using a mill of this size what are your thoughts? Are you using something slightly smaller or slightly larger? Is the mill you are using any good?

  2. #2
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    Just a heads up: round columns suck to use. Find something w/ a dovetail or box way Z.

    This has been beat to death but for $1000+- you can find a rockwell 21-xxx. It beats the imports in every way. ~700#. Can be moved in 2 pcs w/ a handtruck. I have a cherry 21-122 in the garage. I just don't understand spending SO much more on a 'bench' sized import. I get the appeal of the tiny X1/X2s - you can stash them in a closet. But beyond that you're well into benchmaster/Burke/Hardinge TM-UM/Clausing/Rockwell territory (A Powermatic is a bit big to call a 'bench' machine)

    In RTP you should be able to bind a bunch of used machines at auction.

  3. #3
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    The only small machine I've used that was worth spit was a Hardinge horizontal mill with an accessory vertical head. The body and knee were stout enough to do real work on. The vertical head was only 1/2 horse but that's enough unless you want to get into making tooling.

    Find the used machinery dealers in your area and see what they have. Nearly anything used is a good deal unless it's been abused. Find your local community college and pay one of the instructors for a private lesson in evaluating used machines. Or just hire him (it probably won't be a her) to come to the next machinery auction you can find.

  4. #4
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    I think for about the same money you'd be better off with something like the <a href="http://www.grizzly.com/products/Vertical-Mill-with-Power-Feed/G0729">G0729</a>. I have an older Jet version of this and you can move it with an engine hoist. Disassembled with the head and table off two strong guys can pick up the base. And it runs on 110. If I had the means and power to have something bigger I certainly would, but it seems to be a good compromise.

  5. #5
    Belltown Brazer
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    I have this one:

    G0619 6" x 21" Mill / Drill

    And I love it. It's really just a fancy drill press, but for the part time builder it works like a champ. It is fine for milling aluminium, but not so good for milling steel (like trying to mill your own dropouts from steel plate...milling the slot in frame tubes is fine). I also use it for mitering some of the tubes, and it works fine for that.

    It goes slow enough for tapping, and has a reverse button on the handle. This is cool for drilling and tapping cranks for kids.

    B
    Departing from East Hampton, CT

  6. #6
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    I have a Grizzly G1006 and the biggest thing i dig about it is the table size. It is a round column and I don't know why it's hard to work with buy i'm still new to milling. I rarely move the head up or down. Tramming it is pretty much un-doable though so maybe that's a factor in not wanting one? The rigidity is fine for tube notching IMO, but maybe not for milling steel. Having said that, i'll get a larger knee-mill when I can like the one Welby recommends - so you don't need a crane to move it like with a Bridgeport.

    So, if you're going to have only one mill, a big table (9x32, same as the G1126) is really nice so you can have two sets of tooling on there. But I think i'd deal with the smaller 6x26 table of the G0729 because it's a knee-mill and it'll be a more rigid machine altogether and the head tilts....but stuff will definitely be hanging off and more difficult to mount, etc. Also look at the max distance spindle to table because it can limit what tooling setups you are able to put on the table and do steep-angle miters (i.e, rotary table on its end with some kind of main tube mitering fixture may not work...).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meriwether View Post
    Also look at the max distance spindle to table because it can limit what tooling setups you are able to put on the table and do steep-angle miters (i.e, rotary table on its end with some kind of main tube mitering fixture may not work...).
    I don't know if Grizzly sells it, but my version of the 0729 has an optional 4" spacer that goes between the head and the body.

  8. #8
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    we have an similar version of the go720r at my shop. the tilting head(mitering!), the digital speed control, 10-2500rpm, and DRO are nice. the adjustable ways and lots of backlash are annoying. the drill chuck is a POS. it doesn't feel very true. I can see/feel the lack of rigidity on some stuff which makes it hard on tooling. vibration and chatter is what kills your tooling quicker. it feels like a toy. I wouldn't buy one with my own money unless it was used for under a grand. even then I'd spend more for a real mill. for the price of the new grizzly(~$3k), that's bridgeport money imho. if you can fit a mini mill, it won't be that much harder to fit a full size. the grizzly will get a lot of stuff done, but harder to maintain precision, surface quality, and taking really light cuts on some things adds time.

  9. #9
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    Mike from ANT has got some nice pictures of a small mill mitering setup here (follow the link to browse the other pictures). Don't know if somebody can identify the mill ? :

    Class time 015 par antbike, sur Flickr

  10. #10
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    Looks like a grizzly with the head turned. Nice little set up.

  11. #11
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    Heres my "mini' (800lb) mill.

    I'm setting it up as a dedicated seat stay/chain stay mitering system until I can hunt down another Bridgeport.


  12. #12
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    I like how he uses the table instead of the spindle to make the cut by turning it into a 'horizontal' mill of sorts. That is way more rigid than using the spindle for the cut for the small mills.
    Nice 80/20 fixtures too!

    My mini is smaller than that one and is useless for coping tubes now that I have experienced a bigger setup. I'd still be surprised if Ant's setup does not produce some chatter. The amount of play/movement in my mini's table and dovetail was absurd. It's now my dedicated drill press for punching holes in tubes and it's not even great at that.
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  13. #13
    Nemophilist
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    Hey;

    I would encourage everyone to go down the path toward a real machine. Yes, it takes a lot
    of patience, perseverence, some knowledge, and a bit of luck, but a real machine will pay
    you back many times over. I am very fortunate to have one at my disposal. Even then, it
    poses its limitations and problems. Every machine will have its limitations, but the real
    ones have less... IF they are in decent condition. I'm learning to work around my machine,
    as everyone will have to. Mostly, I'm learning to work around MY OWN limitations!

    When it comes to machines - all things being equal in terms of condition - you can't beat
    SIZE & MASS!

    Most people ply the Well Trodden Path. A few seek a different way, and leave a Trail behind.
    - John Hajny, a.k.a. TrailMaker

  14. #14
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    I have had one of these for about 6 years now. Not as nice as a knee mill but the dove tail column does a OK job of allowing you to work in the Z axis. I have the full on "manual" model. No power feed and no DRO. Spindle bearings need service soon.

    Enco &#45; Guaranteed Lowest Prices on Machinery, Measuring Tools, Cutting Tools and Shop Supplies

  15. #15
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    I'm curious about the Grizzly horizontal for a mitering setup. The little vertical mills with the rectangular column would be a lot more interesting if the column didn't rotate. That seems to be a big source of chatter.

  16. #16
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    As an owner of a small Grizzly benchtop mill, I'll thrown in my 2 cents (for free... and not worth that!).

    I bought a Grizzly G1005Z some time back, for my other obsession - restoring antique park train size steam locomotives. I will stipulate that bigger is better when it comes to a mill, and if I had my druthers, I would prefer something other than a round column, benchtop mill. If you can find a good, used, full-size mill worth the money - get it. However, I could not find one when I was looking. I really needed a mill, so I bought the G1005Z. The little Grizzly has done everything I needed it to do, within its limitations. I'm just up the road from the Springfield, MO store, so I picked it up and saved on shipping charges.

    Soooo.... it just depends if you have the room to house it and patience to find a good deal on a real milling machine. If not, I don't have any qualms recommending the Grizzly for a small machine - mine has worked just fine!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanzy4 View Post
    Mike from ANT has got some nice pictures of a small mill mitering setup here (follow the link to browse the other pictures). Don't know if somebody can identify the mill ? :

    It's the Grizzly G0704

    Pretty decent little mill. I have one and have built various odds and ends with it so far including a frame jig, stem jig, and (an almost finished) fork jig.

    Alistair.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    I'm curious about the Grizzly horizontal for a mitering setup. The little vertical mills with the rectangular column would be a lot more interesting if the column didn't rotate. That seems to be a big source of chatter.
    I think the table size and travels (especially in Y axis) on that Grizzly Horiz./Vert milll will be too small to be of use in a mitering setup. If not, I bet Mike F. would have used it instead of the G0704 that Edelbikes posted a picture of.

    I may be misunderstanding your post, but the the column on square/dovetail column mill doesn't rotate. This is what makes them easier to use than the round column mills, which lose X-Y registration when you raise/lower the head.

    The source of chatter for the benchtop square column mills, or any benchtop mill for that matter, is just the fundamental lack of mass and rigidity. With these smaller machines you have to take pretty light passes, compared to something like a B'port.

    Alistair.

  19. #19
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    I was talking about the mini mills

    My impression of the Grizzly horizontal is that it's so small that it would be hard to fit all the pieces needed in its envelope. I live just close enough to Grizzly that I'm tempted to go look at it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    I was talking about the mini mills

    My impression of the Grizzly horizontal is that it's so small that it would be hard to fit all the pieces needed in its envelope. I live just close enough to Grizzly that I'm tempted to go look at it.

    Ok, got it now. I've come to think of the bench top mills collectively as mini mills, since that's how I often hear machinist types refer to them. I'd forgotten that several companies actually offer an item specifically called a mini mill.

    The G0704 is pretty light at around just over 300lbs but the design is pretty clever so it's fairly rigid for it's mass. Still quite limited compared to a real knee mill but it's a good introductory mill I think. The R8 spindle is nice since tooling is readily available and transferable to a bigger machine, should a person decide to go in that direction.

    I've been to the Grizzly showroom a couple of hours north of me and checked out the small horizontal they're offering. It really is tiny. You could probably set it up to slot chainstays, but much more than that and I'm thinking that it just won't have the travel.

    Never tried it myself though so I don't want to say it can't be done. Maybe someone has gotten creative and figured it out.

    Alistair.

  21. #21
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    The G0704 is smaller than that picture cutting seat stays makes it look. Tempting though

  22. #22
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    The table travel on the horizontal G0727 is very similar to the one I have on my dedicated mitering mill (~ 80mm), which is just enough for main tube mitering on a 6" rotary table. I would be more worried by the width of the table (and thus the min. distance between the spindle and the center of your rotary table).

  23. #23
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    With the Grizzly horizontal, there isn't much room between the table and the column. Most vertical mills have a lot more room there. It isn't just travel that you have to worry about.

    thinking more about the G0704. Since you can rotate the head, why use a rotary table? Just set up the head at the angle you want and go to town. I know someone that uses their Bridgeport this way. Is there something about this mill I'm missing? Or is it just because the head takes longer to adjust than the rotary table?

  24. #24
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    Pretty sweet little horizontal:

    Page Title

    I've got one that is functional but has it's issues in the way of a broken reverse lever and subtly bent lead screw on the Y axis. Short of that, works like a charm and I hope to have the time to restore it at some future date. It's not my main mill, so not a priority to date. I've had an import vertical mini-mill and the Atlas is light years ahead, despite the issues of mine and even though it's many years older, there is little comparison.

    You can also get some neat old machines from Burke, Delta/Rockwell, Clausing, and likely many others with which I'm not familiar. Basically, I'm an advocate for OLD, overbuilt machines. ...Manufactured before cost cutting measures and bottom line profits became the number one focus and everything was outsourced overseas to be built by low cost labor with a minimum of material. YMMV.

  25. #25
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    I have looked for a small horizontal mill off and on for a while now. It seems like a lot of them have pneumatic feed on the x. Seems like fixing that is just another project I'd rather not have to take on

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    thinking more about the G0704. Since you can rotate the head, why use a rotary table? Just set up the head at the angle you want and go to town. I know someone that uses their Bridgeport this way. Is there something about this mill I'm missing? Or is it just because the head takes longer to adjust than the rotary table?

    Yep, I think that is why it is set up that way. The way that you adjust the head angle of the G0704 is kind of cumbersome. Access isn't great, and there's no worm gear like on a B'port to crank the head over.
    It's probably one of those things that you'd get quicker at the more you did it, but I don't think it'd ever be as quick and convenient as dialing in the angle on a rotary table.

    As old domestic built horizontals in reasonable working condition become harder to find, I think that adapting machines like the G0704 will become more common.

    Sure, it's a made in China machine tool will potentially suffer from many of the problems that those machines are known to come with. OTOH, if you're just building a notcher, and don't want to spend two years waiting for the perfect machine to show up, it's an affordable way to get the ball rolling.

    Alistair.

  27. #27
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    I'll have to go look at that machine. I have an x/y dro that I could slap on there too if I decide that's worth it. Ever since I figured out that my lathe is too worn out to miter I've been trying to figure out what to replace it with.

  28. #28
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    Well,

    I can't comment on the mill's mitering abilities yet myself. I've been working through a list of jigs and other knick knacks that I've wanted to make since I got the mill. Not done any mitering with it yet myself, but that should change soon.
    Mike at ANT is the only person I know of who has experience using this mill for mitering bicycle tubing, but I am sure there must be others.

    I did put a set of digital X-Y scales on my mill, as a budget DRO. Works well, and has been very useful in turning out accurate work. For it's weight, the mill has decent travels and power (1 HP). The tapered gibs are a nice touch, giving smooth table and head travel.

    When I got mine I took it all apart, just to see what was what. Here's a Flickr set,
    G0704 Mill. - a set on Flickr
    which may give you a better idea of the scale of the thing.

    Alistair.

  29. #29
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    We use a small harrison horizontal for our mitring (I'm sure there area pictures of it set up on our flickr page), It's pretty worn out but still manages to cut accurate mitres. I only use it for the main tubes.

    What I'm interested in is the scope for using one of these small machines as a basis for a dedicated chainstay mitring machine (not just a fixture). It seems to me that for the cost of the Anvil fixtures (for example) you could buy one of these little machines and make something that has it's own power built in too. I think chainstay to BB mitres are the obvious ones as you can lock/bolt/weld everything except one feed so it's as rigid as possible

    just a thought
    matt

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18bikes View Post
    We use a small harrison horizontal for our mitring (I'm sure there area pictures of it set up on our flickr page), It's pretty worn out but still manages to cut accurate mitres. I only use it for the main tubes.

    What I'm interested in is the scope for using one of these small machines as a basis for a dedicated chainstay mitring machine (not just a fixture). It seems to me that for the cost of the Anvil fixtures (for example) you could buy one of these little machines and make something that has it's own power built in too. I think chainstay to BB mitres are the obvious ones as you can lock/bolt/weld everything except one feed so it's as rigid as possible

    just a thought
    matt
    You could even remove completely the X/Y table part (and sell it), lay the column horizontally on a bench, and bolt the CS jig on the top (what was the front) of the column... Just an idea like that... ;-)

  31. #31
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    I had a fleeting thought of finding the largest possible milling attachment for a lathe and modding that for a dedicated machine. But time is worth something

  32. #32
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    My thinking was it would save some time over starting from scratch - maybe take as much effort as building your own fixtures, but they'd end up as dedicated machines instead. Only an idle thought really, I've never even used one of these machines so have no idea of their capabilities. I'd really like a chainstay fixture but can't justify the cost of buying one, I'll probably make something that bolts direct to the table of the harrison but it'll mean reamoving the rotary table every time I want to use it

  33. #33
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    Why the love for horizontal mills? I've not found the set up to be that difficult on a vertical mill and the management of coolant seems a lot easier on a vertical. I flood cool during the cut using a ice cream bucket, a 15$ fountain pump and a piece of lexan bent to contain the spray. Even KVA stainless cuts like butter with flood cooling.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TgMN View Post
    Why the love for horizontal mills? I've not found the set up to be that difficult on a vertical mill and the management of coolant seems a lot easier on a vertical. I flood cool during the cut using a ice cream bucket, a 15$ fountain pump and a piece of lexan bent to contain the spray. Even KVA stainless cuts like butter with flood cooling.

    Nothing wrong with mitering on a vertical. knee mill. A horizontal does give a more rigid set up though, just based on the fundamental design differences between the two. Setting up a mitering system on a horizontal is more intuitive I'd say, and simpler.

    I think maybe there was a time when used horizontal mills in decent condition were plentiful , and could be gotten for good prices (in certain parts of the country anyway). Compared to the cost of buying a dedicated notching machine they were usually much cheaper, so even lower production shops could have three or four, each dedicated to a particular op. They're compact, with small footprints, compared to turret/knee mills, again making them suited to smaller shops.

    It seems that maybe those days are coming to an end. I still see horizontals for sale, but more often than not they're behemoth Cincinnati's and the like, not the much smaller machines like say a Nichol's hand miller. Again, it probably depends a lot on which part of the country you're in.

    There's a video floating around out there somewhere showing Carl Strong's set up, which is a bigger version of what Mike F. did with that small Grizzly mill. He has the head turned 90 deg. and a power feed on the X axis with a limit switch. He can start the the machine and walk away to do something else. The machine cuts the miter and switches itself off, which I always thought was quite handy.

    Alistair.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Spence View Post

    I did put a set of digital X-Y scales on my mill, as a budget DRO. Works well, and has been very useful in turning out accurate work.
    Any chance you have a photo of the budget DRO setup...? Interested!

    Do you find the table travel pretty rigid when running passes and milling? I know with my mini it is pretty loose so there's too much chatter to use it in anything more than a tube notcher.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meriwether View Post
    Any chance you have a photo of the budget DRO setup...? Interested!

    Do you find the table travel pretty rigid when running passes and milling? I know with my mini it is pretty loose so there's too much chatter to use it in anything more than a tube notcher.

    There's a few pic's of the X-Y scales install in that Flickr set I linked to earlier. Pretty basic kit that I bought from Grizzly. They're holding up well so far.

    As for milling, the G0704 handles it well. The tapered gibs let you strike that fine line between minimal play and smooth travel. I take 0.080" roughing cuts in alu. with a roughing end mill and this gives a decent finish. No big deal for a "real" mill but I think it's pretty decent for this little machine.
    Over on CNCZone there's guys that upgrade the G0704 with high speed motors, upgraded spindle bearings and flood cooling. With that set up they get some very impressive depth of cut and inches per minute numbers. I'm not really interested in getting into all that myself, but it's interesting to see what the mill can handle.

    With regular end mills the finish is very good, and I've got fly cutting figured out to where I'm getting excellent finish on light (0.005") finish passes.

    I'll be posting a flickr set showing the build sequence for my fork jig soon, hopefully in the next week. That should help to give you an idea of what the mill can do.

    Cheers,

    Alistair.

  37. #37
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    imgur: the simple image sharer
    (I would embed but the picture wanted to take up the whole page for some reason...)

    Benchtop mill that weighs about 650lbs, 2hp 110 or 220v motor. Picked it up off of CL for $600 in cherry condition. It's a Harbo Freight brand but it's the same mill that is sold under like 7 different brands. Works kickass so far! Round column is a tad annoying, but it has a pretty significant amount of Z travel and we have a collet set for all of our tools so it's not a big deal once dialed in....

  38. #38
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    I am still doing research.

    Has anyone used a Baileigh TN-300?
    Baileigh TN-300 Tube and Pipe Notcher 3" Capacity, Offset Notching, Made in the USA - YouTube

    These machines look interesting because as a dedicated hole saw notching machine the price is *almost* attractive. What seems most attractive about the machine is that it is small in size and not super heavy so it would not require a forklift to move it into my shop. The machine also looks super simple and while it does not have the flexibility of a small milling machine it might be better then an mill of equivalent size.

    What do you guys think? Has anyone around here used one?

  39. #39
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    That looks like a nice machine. No personal experience with it but hole saws can be slow and sometimes overmatched when working with heat treated tubes (the quality of the hole saw can matter here, too). Something that may be worth considering depending on what raw materials you like to use?

    If it were my money, I'd be looking for a lathe first. A lathe can be easily adapted to mitering by building a tube clamp that you can mount on the compound...A simple V-block set to the centerline of the headstock, using the compound to set your angles.

    Want to turn up some bushings for your full-sus project? How about quickly busting out a star-nut setting tool to assemble your new frame? Beyond mitering, a lathe is a far more versatile tool to sacrifice floor space for. ...Then I'd save for the mill.

  40. #40
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    lathes are pretty useful, but so is a mill. I think if I were in the market for a dedicated tube mitering machine, I would not go for the Baleigh. I have a fairly long list of things they could have done better, but at $2500, there are lots better options. I have helped move a Bridgeport down into a basement so really I don't see how the mill drills would be an issue moving. The G0704 looks like a better machine than the Baleigh. It weighs less than 300 pounds and can be disassembled fairly easily from what I see people doing with it. That is my current plan.

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