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  1. #1
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    question custom project: widest hubs?

    Hi, my custom 36er project is staring over.
    I have to source out the widest hub possible (production or custom, but can't be one of a kind).
    I've been looking at the usual suspects of course, PhilWood, Paul, ChrisKing, 616 and WhiteIndustries. They have some solutions but non fits exactly my needs
    My goal is:
    front: 135mm or wider OLD, 15 or 20mm thru axle, disc mount and 36 or 48 holes. High flange is a best.
    rear: 170/175/185mm OLD, 12 thru axle, disc mount and 36 or 48 holes. High flange is a best.
    Let me know if you have any ideas.

    Thanks in advance.
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  2. #2
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    I can't think of anything thing through axle wider than 100mm front / 150 rear off the shelf. If you have lots of time and money Phil Wood will make anything.... But LOTS of time AND money.... It will be shiney though!

    36 hole is the real killer on your list, quite a few "Fatbike" hubs in 135 front 170 rear out there in 32 hole drilling. Hope makes "fat" versions of the pro2 which *might* be some endcaps and custom axles away from through axle.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  3. #3
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    Thanks G-reg, yes the 36 holes is mandatory, and even tho I'd like to go 48 holes. The only rims available are 36 or 48...
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  4. #4
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    I like the Pauls hubs that were on the NAHBS Blacksheep 36er, wide and ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ of the I9 driver!!!
    PAYASO 36er.....Live the Circus

    MR. 36er TROLL


  5. #5
    Flatulence Ventriloquist
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    Look at what Keener did with his....if there are photos around that is.

    He cut his hub shells in the middle and turned extensions that press in to widen them. I don't know how wide he went, but it is wider than any fatbike I have ever seen.

    I believe he uses an XT disc hub out back. His front is actually two 20mm hubs with disc mounts on both sides to run dual disc brakes in front.

  6. #6
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    I like your username Typo Knig.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  7. #7
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    Id braze my own before cutting and pressing hubs. Dont you need to resist torque between the two spoke flanges? What about that DIY CF hub someone posted here about a year ago? You could do what Talon do with their motor cross hubs:
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  8. #8
    Flatulence Ventriloquist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    I like your username Typo Knig.
    Thanks. One of the super-rare clever moments I have had in my life allegedly....

  9. #9
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    Thanks for all these info. Yes, I'm in contact with Keener, and he did a tremendous job. I'm far away from having his skills.
    and no DIY hubs as I need to be able to source them in a -small- quantity...
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  10. #10
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    Surly has a front hub you might like. 48 spoke drilling too...

  11. #11
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    Thanks but... Surly 48 spokes front are for Polo bike: which means rim brake only !
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  12. #12
    DIY all the way
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidfrench View Post
    Thanks for all these info. Yes, I'm in contact with Keener, and he did a tremendous job. I'm far away from having his skills.
    and no DIY hubs as I need to be able to source them in a -small- quantity...
    Depending what a small quantity is, DIY is sure an option.

    The way I did carbon based hubs, it was a walk in the park, and the width is entirely arbitrary to the process.


    Magura

  13. #13
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    You don't really need to worry about balancing torque between the flanges. The old Bullseye hubs were pressed together, with a flange on each end of a center shell. Production tolerances meant that not all of them were a tight fit; I encountered several hubs that could be pulled apart with my bare hands. Once it's all laced up and tensioned it acts the same as a one-piece hub does.

  14. #14
    Flatulence Ventriloquist
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigHank53 View Post
    I encountered several hubs that could be pulled apart with my bare hands. Once it's all laced up and tensioned it acts the same as a one-piece hub does.
    I second this. I had a Nuke Proof hub do the same thing. I rode it like that for like 6 years and 2 rebuilds without issue.

  15. #15
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    Why?

    I am curious as to why you'd want hubs like this. 48 spokes? Are you building a cargo bike or a tandem or something?

    -W
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I am curious as to why you'd want hubs like this. 48 spokes? Are you building a cargo bike or a tandem or something?

    -W
    I can't speak for the OP, but I know the main reason I would want a wide hub on a 36er is to make a wider sectional triangle between hubs, spokes and rim. I haven't built a 36 inch wheel in my time but I imagine the tension on the spokes to keep the wheel from deflecting laterally must be awefully high.

    The 48 spoke thing doesn't make much sense to me either.

    I am hoping that by the time I get around to building a 36er, there might be a 32 hole rim available. Wishful thinking I am sure.
    Last edited by Typo_Knig; 08-31-2012 at 01:39 PM.

  17. #17
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    Hi all and thanks for your input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I am curious as to why you'd want hubs like this. 48 spokes? Are you building a cargo bike or a tandem or something?

    -W
    Thanks Walt. Well... 48 holes, because I bought the rims with 48 holes and I'm building the bike keeping in mind that it will be ridden hard (by me 6f6 220lbs) and by friends that are 6f9 and around 380lbs.
    Makes sense to have a 48 spoke wheel, no?
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  18. #18
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    Those are good reasons!

    If I had friends that outweighed me by 160 pounds, I don't think I'd let them borrow my bike!

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by davidfrench View Post
    Hi all and thanks for your input.



    Thanks Walt. Well... 48 holes, because I bought the rims with 48 holes and I'm building the bike keeping in mind that it will be ridden hard (by me 6f6 220lbs) and by friends that are 6f9 and around 380lbs.
    Makes sense to have a 48 spoke wheel, no?
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    If I had friends that outweighed me by 160 pounds, I don't think I'd let them borrow my bike!

    -Walt
    Yes... that means that even me can't really fight for my bike back!
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  20. #20
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    But if you are making these for small production, are you going to target large riders? I agree a large wheel should have more spokes and wider flange spacing. Will this be singlespeed? We have some bomb-proof SS hubs in the works which would be easy for us to meet your requiremnts by the way they are constructed.

  21. #21
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    Hi Tacoman, yes, tall and heavy riders. I'm interested in knowing more about your hubs. I couldn't find them on your website tho.
    email or PM please.
    Thanks!
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  22. #22
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    Hi David, I did respond to your email. We should have the hubs released in about 2-3 months. The only details I can comment is that they are designed for singlespeeds and will handle a lot of torque. They will use cogs of our own design which is a key feature in what allows them to be so strong.

  23. #23
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    Here is what our cogs for the hubs will look like. The hubs are still a few months away, but we just released our Quick-Cog which fits on a standard cassette spline. Our hubs will not require the inner black aluminum driver (shown in the picture) as the large spline of the cog will be part of our hub.


    Lunar Bikes - Single Speed Cogs

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacoMan View Post
    Here is what our cogs for the hubs will look like. The hubs are still a few months away, but we just released our Quick-Cog which fits on a standard cassette spline. Our hubs will not require the inner black aluminum driver (shown in the picture) as the large spline of the cog will be part of our hub.


    Lunar Bikes - Single Speed Cogs
    Nice idea can you make 24-27 tooth ?
    PAYASO 36er.....Live the Circus

    MR. 36er TROLL


  25. #25
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    Tandem Hubs?

  26. #26
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    Thanks, but tandem hubs are still too narrow (135 front or 150mm back) and even if they have the good spoke count (48) the flanges are too small...
    Still working in it!
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by todwil View Post
    Nice idea can you make 24-27 tooth ?
    We could on special order, you would need to wait until we make a new run on them, then we can include some odd sizes. There are a lot of steps invloved in making them, so we can't just make one at a time.

    We keep in stock 18-23T.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidfrench View Post
    Thanks but... Surly 48 spokes front are for Polo bike: which means rim brake only !
    Hmmm.... on a 36er, when you analyze the loads on the front fork blades, whats so wrong with V-brakes? Am I missing something? I'm thinking with a one sided disc you will get a huge reaction on the left fork leg, unless you make those forks so stiff (and heavy) they are no fun to ride on...

    I'm thinking you can go compliant on the front fork, and have balanced load from rim brakes. Its not like you can go major wide with the current market of 36er tires. (Am I correct there are only three tires commonly available? Coker Button, coker logo style and nimbus nightrider, right?) And with those tires where are you going that will really really require disc brakes? I'm thinking you'd ride the 36er anywhere you'd ride your old bike that has the WTB nanoraptors.. (occasional pavement, dirt roads, occasional off road single track...) So, again, what's so wrong with rim brakes?

    No offense intended, I'm just curious..

    zip.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zipzit View Post
    Hmmm.... on a 36er, when you analyze the loads on the front fork blades, whats so wrong with V-brakes? Am I missing something? I'm thinking with a one sided disc you will get a huge reaction on the left fork leg, unless you make those forks so stiff (and heavy) they are no fun to ride on...

    I'm thinking you can go compliant on the front fork, and have balanced load from rim brakes. Its not like you can go major wide with the current market of 36er tires. (Am I correct there are only three tires commonly available? Coker Button, coker logo style and nimbus nightrider, right?) And with those tires where are you going that will really really require disc brakes? I'm thinking you'd ride the 36er anywhere you'd ride your old bike that has the WTB nanoraptors.. (occasional pavement, dirt roads, occasional off road single track...) So, again, what's so wrong with rim brakes?

    No offense intended, I'm just curious..

    zip.
    With the weight of the wheels and tires being arround 7lbs from the nipples out te rim brake would be struggling to stop the pads would most likely turn to mush on long desents
    Also very very soon a new tire will be availible from Waltworks made by Vee Rubber
    same or similar tread as there speeder tire....36ers are the future!!!
    PAYASO 36er.....Live the Circus

    MR. 36er TROLL


  30. #30
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    Actually the best idea will be to have both, disc and rim brakes, so you share the torque on two different points of the fork...
    Arvon Stacey in Canada is doing that on his tandem...
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by todwil View Post
    I like the Pauls hubs that were on the NAHBS Blacksheep 36er, wide and ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ of the I9 driver!!!
    And now that Industry 9 is making a cassette body to fit the new Sram 11 speed makes
    these even more appealing!!
    PAYASO 36er.....Live the Circus

    MR. 36er TROLL


  32. #32
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    Am I missing something? The load on a rim brake should be the same for any given wheel size if the distance from tire contact patch to the braking surface is the same and surface speed of the tire is constant. There would be a higher bending moment placed on the fork blades since the distance from tire contact to fork crown is greater. In practice, the rim brake will see a higher load, but only because the rotating mass is greater.

    Disc/drum brakes are another story since you have a huge torque multiplier at the braking surface.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacoMan View Post
    ...There would be a higher bending moment placed on the fork blades since the distance from tire contact to fork crown is greater. In practice, the rim brake will see a higher load, but only because the rotating mass is greater...
    TacoMan, I'm totally with you.. with some very minor tweaks.
    I don't think the distance between fork crown and rim on 36er is GREATER than fork crown and rim distance on other setup. Nobody is going to create a suspension corrected fork for a 36er. The loads from cantilever / V brakes to fork will be minimal.

    And yes 36er, 29er or 26" rim.. for every inch the bike travels over the ground, the brake pads are moving 0.8xxx" along the rim (difference in circumference between rim and tire contact surface) Heck, lets figure out these numbers.. for most 26" / 29er tires I'm seeing a distance from rubber contact surface of tire to rim center of around 2 to 2.25" If I use 2.25, than for every inch of dirt trail traveled, the rim brake pad sees 0.83" travel on the 26" bike, 0.84" on the 29er and 0.875" of travel on the 36er. Whoa.. look closely at those numbers. Guess what.. it takes LESS grip squeeze at the brake lever to slow a bike (of the same weight) on the 36er than it does on the 26" (Yes, I know, the 36er will definitely weight more than the 26" but with my large butt, the majority of the weight being slowed down is my body mass, not the bike...)

    As for heat, think about it.. the 36er has lots more aluminum rim to heat up.. its gotta stay cooler than a small rim.

    The effects from rotating mass are certainly there, but minimal at best. When you have your bike on a stand, spin the tire fast, how much braking force is required to stop the bike, really? Ans. Not much.

    I'm still seeing the rim brakes as a opportunity for success on the 36er.

    What do you guys think?
    --zip
    Last edited by zipzit; 11-05-2012 at 06:52 AM.

  34. #34
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    Technical explanation is convincing.
    I just love the feel of disc brakes!
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  35. #35
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    Zip,

    Yes, I would agree with all your points. Except I was referring to the distance from the tire contact patch at the ground to the fork crown. This is what creates the bending moment on the fork in braking and just riding over bumps. That force will be greater with a longer fork and larger wheel. The reaction force from the brake cantilever above the tire as you pointed out would be the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by zipzit View Post
    I don't think the distance between fork crown and rim on 36er is GREATER than fork crown and rim distance on other setup.
    --zip

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacoMan View Post
    ...Except I was referring to the distance from the tire contact patch at the ground to the fork crown. This is what creates the bending moment on the fork in braking and just riding over bumps. That force will be greater with a longer fork and larger wheel. ...
    So we're now saying the best fork for a 36er is a Jeff Jones like truss fork with rim brakes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Smykowski, Office Space
    It was a "Jump to Conclusions" mat. You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor... and would have different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO.
    Er... or did I just make that jump? And now you get to reply...

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bolton
    That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life, Tom.
    --zip

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by todwil View Post
    And now that Industry 9 is making a cassette body to fit the new Sram 11 speed makes
    these even more appealing!!
    Sounds great but expensive.
    The Sram 11 speed is somewhere around $400 already...
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