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  1. #1
    Squelch the weasel.
    Reputation: JaquesN's Avatar
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    oversized head tube after brazing

    I just went to ream and face a headtube of a frame I made and the reamer slipped right into the head tube without any effort. So I take out a headset cup and it slips right in too. This is a VERHT1 head tube with reinforcing rings brazed on either end. It's never been reamed before.

    The headset is a perfect slip fit on both ends. That is, rather than pressing it in, I can just drop it in.

    Anybody ever seen this?

    Is there a good solution to installing the headset so it doesn't rattle around?

    Thanks,
    Jim

  2. #2
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    Reputation: Eric Malcolm's Avatar
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    Man, that is annoying.

    The only idea that comes to mind is to place a bead of braze material around the rim for about a depth of 8-10mm into the tube and ream it out.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  3. #3
    Dad
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    I don't know any details, but Chris King does oversize cups. Might shoot them an email for the heck of it.

  4. #4
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    You could take a knurling tool to the HS cup.

    Sounds like the tube was out of spec to me. Do you have any other pieces of it sitting around you could measure?

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  5. #5
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    That's an interesting one, has the headset been used in any other frames? Tried a different one?

    I would go the Chris King route - You need that pressfit to be spot on, especially after you've gone through all that effort!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyC7 View Post
    That's an interesting one, has the headset been used in any other frames? Tried a different one?
    I only tried the one headset cup and the ream. I'll try another headset cup just to be absolutely certain it's not my error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    You could take a knurling tool to the HS cup.

    Sounds like the tube was out of spec to me. Do you have any other pieces of it sitting around you could measure?
    That's a good idea I think I do. I'll try that too.

    Thanks,
    Jim

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    You could take a knurling tool to the HS cup.
    I don't have a knurling tool, but I could dimple the frame-interface part of the cup with a punch. Wouldn't that have the same effect?

  8. #8
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    Those are all ghetto fixes for anything but a personal bike.
    Does a cup slip into a raw piece of tube EG: one not brazed?
    Please do tell.
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  9. #9
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    oversized head tube after brazing

    For a personal frame I've used Loctite 680 and it's in there solid. It's a MTB frame with a rigid fork so I'd know if there was any play.
    There's another thread I was involved in here about this very topic. King headsets have very close tolerances and Cane Creek seem to be a tad oversized. So maybe try a CC headset before knurling or something you can't reverse...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaquesN View Post
    I don't have a knurling tool, but I could dimple the frame-interface part of the cup with a punch. Wouldn't that have the same effect?
    That doesn't sound like a very good solution, then those dimples would be the only thing hold the cups in place? Not sufficient imho.

  11. #11
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    If you're truly desperate, you could get a HS with steel cups (that takes some kind of very standard bearing you easily replace) and *braze in* the cups (after making really sure it's faced well/cups are well aligned).

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    If you're truly desperate, you could get a HS with steel cups (that takes some kind of very standard bearing you easily replace) and *braze in* the cups (after making really sure it's faced well/cups are well aligned).

    -Walt
    You'd think that the brazing would warp the cups a bit though, unless you were fairly skilled and having a good brazing day. You might end up with a non-terrific bearing surface for your HS bearings.

    I was thinking a similar thought, but with epoxy, but who knows if it'd hold up to the forces of biking.

  13. #13
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    You would have to be a serious hack to get it to distort much with silver. With brass, yeah, you might cook it enough.

    If it were my frame, I'd probably try loctite/knurl combo first. If it were for someone else, I'd build it again and find a friend who fit on it and wanted a free new bike.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  14. #14
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    JB weld it in and ride.

    Pretty sure the OP is building for himself and has a relatively (compared to pro builders like Walt, Garro, and Rody) low number of bikes built. See is as an excuse to build another bike in 6 months to replace it. Building more bikes is more better.

  15. #15
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    If it is for yourself. ANd if the gap is less than 0.006" (0.15mm):
    Loctite 648 is the way to go.

    Its bombproof. With proper cleaning of the surfaces you wont even get it out with a big hammer-stroke. if you want to remove it, heating to 180C / 360F works and turns the glue to honey, but it will also ruin your paintjob.

  16. #16
    Randomhead
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    I have never seen a tube get bigger through distortion. Oval, yes, bigger, no

  17. #17
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    Yeah, I assume the tube was out of spec to begin with. I can't think of any plausible scenarios in which the tube ID would get bigger all the way around in the normal process of framebuilding.

    Might be worth some measuring and maybe a phone call to HJ.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  18. #18
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    OK, so I went back to the shop and tried the other remaining piece of headtube. A new headset cup fit in one side, but not the other. The obvious answer is that this is a butted tube, not a headtube, and it got switched at some point either by me or somebody else.

    Shirk is right that I am a hobby builder. This is a frame for me. So I'm going to use Loctite 648 and ride it. I don't feel great about it and I wouldn't give it to anyone else, but as he says, I'll just see how this frame rides not do any big jumps, and probably build a slightly better one in 6 months.

    Thanks for all the comments. I guess I'll check my tubes more carefully from now on.

    Jim

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