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  1. #1
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    Fooly's Major Glory

    After months of procrastination I finally have a working design. I would like to present my work in progress:

    Fooly's Major Glory - 650b Titanium Soft Tail, Rohloff/Gates belt drive.


    If I can get my butt in gear, I should have this frame completed by end of January 2013. And parted up by end of February or early March, just in time for the Sol-Cal Kenda Cup.

    Over the next few weeks I hope to document some of the progress on the project. I hope you enjoy it.

    Dan "Fooly" Acosta


    Edit: added some pictures of the parts I've been collecting.
    Edit: added some pictures of some of the custom parts I've been making
    Edit: added some pictures of more bits that came in. Added the Chain Stay and Seat Stay tube from the tube bender.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fooly's Major Glory-tubes-s.jpg  

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    Last edited by dacosta; 08-27-2013 at 10:28 PM.

  2. #2
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    Edit: Recycling old artwork for new frame.
    Edit: Added linkage design
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fooly's Major Glory-linkage-650b-3-s.jpg  

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    Last edited by dacosta; 08-27-2013 at 10:36 PM.

  3. #3
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    Graphics are done

    The graphics are done!

    I hand anodized the head tube logo, the name of the bike and rear triangle. Not sure if you can tell from the picture but the rear triangle has a gold tint to it. The head tube logo is the simplified version of my disk wheel.

    Need to finish collecting parts. Had a small delay with some unexpected bills but should have the bike up and running by the end of November.

    Enjoy

    Fooly
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    Last edited by dacosta; 10-31-2013 at 09:55 PM.

  4. #4
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    Reserved for congratulations!

    Really though it is about time. Good luck and have fun.

  5. #5
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    It's my understanding Rohloff are super picky about properly stiff chainstays when using a belt. Are you confident that your design won't allow tension to change too much?
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    It's my understanding Rohloff are super picky about properly stiff chainstays when using a belt. Are you confident that your design won't allow tension to change too much?
    I suppose it does "pivot" around the bottom bracket... and the new/current CenterTrack belts should be more tolerant of changes in tension? *shrugs*

  7. #7
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    Ah! That's why I asked. It looks like it wouldn't pivot....it would bend.
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  8. #8
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    Since it is a soft tail, I am not getting a lot of rear wheel travel. From the neutral position (mid travel) the chain is at its longest. To the fully extended position I am calculating the chain line to shrink by about 0.040 inches. And to the fully compressed position the chain line will shrink about 0.065 inches. My test bike with a more traditional rigid frame design this is just a few turns of the adjusting screw. My tests seems to show this will work just fine. May not be the best for the belt, but I confident that this will work better in the long run than the traditional chain.

  9. #9
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  10. #10
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    Seriously, I think you are going to have major problems with a belt on a softail. Even very small amounts of chain growth are going to be murder with those tension requirements. But you can always just throw a chain on it, so it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work out.

    Care to share the geometry numbers?

    -W
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacosta View Post
    Since it is a soft tail, I am not getting a lot of rear wheel travel. From the neutral position (mid travel) the chain is at its longest. To the fully extended position I am calculating the chain line to shrink by about 0.040 inches. And to the fully compressed position the chain line will shrink about 0.065 inches. My test bike with a more traditional rigid frame design this is just a few turns of the adjusting screw. My tests seems to show this will work just fine. May not be the best for the belt, but I confident that this will work better in the long run than the traditional chain.
    You need to learn the difference between chain line and chain growth.

    It is not just chain growth than can cause issues with belt drive. Some rigid frames have problems because of lateral and/or torsional flex.
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  12. #12
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    69ºHT, 73ºST, Eff TT 21.25", ST C/T 16.5"

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    What rear belt sprocket are you going to use? Rohloff won't sell theirs unless the frame is certified by Gates...and even then they won't sell the adapter, you have to ship you hub to them to get it fitted!
    As far I understand hub warranty is also void if you use anyone elses sprockets because these components incorporate the hub seal surface bit. How are you getting around all these hurdles?

  14. #14
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    "You can not make anything full proof, as the world will simply make a better fool."
    (unknown)

    I reserve the right to be that fool.

    Rohloff hubs and Gate's belt drive are both available from QBP and BTI. All you need is an understanding bike shop that is willing to order the parts for you. Since I am building the frame all manufactures warranties are voided, including Shimano, Sram, Rockshox ect. As a result I take on the responsibility, and the reliability of the design rest only on my shoulders. If it does fail I have no one to blame but myself.

    Since I have no intention of starting a buisness, nor do I plan on building this frame for anyone else. I can design this frame for the singular purpose for myself. I choose to build a bike that can not or should not be built, as an intellectual and creative challenge.

    The design was done in Solidwork, the analysis was done with Cosmos. I built a test bike with the Gates Belt and Rohloff hub. I've tested an intentional miss alignment and incorrect tension on the belt. With all of this I am confident that this will work.

    Fooly
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    Last edited by dacosta; 08-27-2013 at 10:39 PM.

  15. #15
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    So where do you get the rear sprocket adapter thing from then? QBP have the gates and rohloff stuff yes, but these won't fit together without some adapter that only rohloff themselves make...and won't sell separately (GGGrrr)...god knows I've tried to get one!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by estutjaweh View Post
    So where do you get the rear sprocket adapter thing from then? QBP have the gates and rohloff stuff yes, but these won't fit together without some adapter that only rohloff themselves make...and won't sell separately (GGGrrr)...god knows I've tried to get one!
    If a part can be made by one entity - Rohloff, say - it can be made by another. To paraphrase, overcome and adapt!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacosta View Post
    Fooly's Major Glory - 650b Titanium Soft Tail, Rohloff/Gates belt drive.
    Why belt drive?

    It seems to me that it will be problematic because even on hardtails belts seem to be fairly problematic. For a suspended bike the movement in the rear end could cause issues.

    What is your motivation for running belt?

  18. #18
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    Have you tried Cycle Monkey? It seems to me that he is the guy for Rohloff service in the USA and he also sells parts for the Gates belt drive. If you are still having problems you may just have to buy a new hub with the cog already attached. ($$ouch)

    I've been riding mountain bikes off and on for the last 20 years. I've been riding the same mountain bike for the last 12 years. I'm getting really tired of the constant chain maintenance. I want this next bike to last another 12 years with out all that chain maintenance and all that shifting issues that go along with the chain. My test bike is almost a year old now, and is now my road bike and daily commuter. Sure it was a pain to set up but I now I just pump up the tires and roll out.

    If the belt doesn't work I can always swap out the belt back to a chain. And I can always swap out of the Rohloff for a more traditional chain-gear system. The point is to try the belt and see if I can get it to work for me. This project is all about the journey and not so much about the destination, although the destination is also pretty cool too.

    Fooly

    PS. Mark I really like your web site. If I wasn't so lazy I would be following in your foot steps.

    Fooly
    Last edited by dacosta; 11-12-2012 at 08:15 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacosta View Post
    I'm getting really tired of the constant chain maintenance. I want this next bike to last another 12 years with out all that chain maintenance and all that shifting issues that go along with the chain.
    I feel you on the chain maintenance headaches but the past couple of weeks I have been pretty happy with my monster chain. I am running a motorcycle chain on a single speed bike but there is no reason it would not work for belt drive.

    My chain is the one on the left


    It runs on a special custom chain ring and cog that we made from motorcycle sprockets.


    I am hoping it will give me improved chain life so if your belt does not work and you want an extra tough chain think outside the box.

  20. #20
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    Again Kudos to you Mark Farnsworth, very nice.

  21. #21
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    Really? Chain maintenance on a singlespeed? Lube it every two weeks and ride it until it stretches, and replace it with another $35 chain. Seems easier than all the intricacies of belt drive to me.

  22. #22
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    How much does the motorcycle chain weight? Must be a boat anchor.

  23. #23
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    Chain wear, really?

    I have SS drivetrains with plain-jane PC951 chains on them that have lasted years and years, thousands upon thousands of miles, with nothing but the occasional squirt of lube. I don't understand how people have these crazy chain wear problems...motorcycle chain, really?

    Occasionally I have a friend come to me with chain problems on their SS and it's inevitably an issue of running a 3/32" cog with a 1/8" track/BMX chain (which they usually bought because it was bigger/burlier looking). If you avoid that, you should be golden for a LONG time.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Buxton View Post
    Really? Chain maintenance on a singlespeed? Lube it every two weeks and ride it until it stretches, and replace it with another $35 chain. Seems easier than all the intricacies of belt drive to me.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    I have SS drivetrains with plain-jane PC951 chains on them that have lasted years and years, thousands upon thousands of miles, with nothing but the occasional squirt of lube. I don't understand how people have these crazy chain wear problems...motorcycle chain, really?
    A chain will last 10,000 years or more if it is not used but I call BS on the millions of miles claim.



    The chain above was less then 2k miles using good quality 3/32nd drivetrain parts.

    In off road conditions a chain will last at most 2k miles before bad stuff starts happening. With adverse conditions like mud and rain chain life is reduced.

    The moto chain is crazy overkill but it is going to last a while. I tend to do around 200 miles a week on my single speed. Most of my riding is off road. Some weeks I do more while other weeks I do less. Chain stretch usually means an adjustment every week or two and end of life after a month or two. The idea with the moto chain was just to have fun and do something a little over the top but it sure rides nice and is perfect for my training bike where I don't care about weight.

    p.s. sorry for the thread hijack. It will be fun to see Fooly Major Glory come to life, I think belt drive is interesting but still not so sure it will work on a full suspension bike.

    -Mark
    Last edited by febikes; 11-15-2012 at 03:40 PM.

  25. #25
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    Really?

    I don't think "thousands upon thousands" is usually understood as "millions". That would be "thousands OF thousands".

    Well, YMMV, I guess. I have ridden a lot of singlespeeds a lot of miles over the years, though certainly nothing like your ~30 miles offroad per day average (wow!). If I had to estimate, I'd say the average chain lasts me 4-5k miles (for me, a couple of seasons). At a retail cost of ~$25/chain for a 951, that's peanuts.

    But if you're trashing chains every month, I can see why you'd go for something beefier. That is the most riding (you've gotta be doing 30+ hours a week!) I've ever heard of anyone doing on a regular basis who isn't a full-time pro!

    -Walt


    Quote Originally Posted by febikes View Post
    A chain will last 10,000 years or more if it is not used but I call BS on the millions of miles claim.



    The chain above was less then 2k miles using good quality 3/32nd drivetrain parts.

    In off road conditions a chain will last at most 2k miles before bad stuff starts happening. With adverse conditions like mud and rain chain life is reduced.

    The moto chain is crazy overkill but it is going to last a while. I tend to do around 200 miles a week on my single speed. Most of my riding is off road. Some weeks I do more while other weeks I do less. Chain stretch usually means an adjustment every week or two and end of life after a month or two. The idea with the moto chain was just to have fun and do something a little over the top but it sure rides nice and is perfect for my training bike where I don't care about weight.

    p.s. sorry for the thread hijack. It will be fun to see Fooly Major Glory come to life, I think belt drive is interesting but still not so sure it will work on a full suspension bike.

    -Mark
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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    Ya, I got more the my average amount of miles this year by a long shot so chain wear was also more then expected. I do ride a lot though but mostly junk miles with 12 miles to work in the morning and then another 12 miles back home most days so it really just replaces time that would be spent in the car. Bikes are fun so weekends and evenings are sometimes more miles although I ride less when I am building a frame on the weekend.

  27. #27
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    Wink

    Chains?...
    ...let me ride it!

    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA
    Works like Stink...
    ...now if I can just figure out how Stink works
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  28. #28
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    I'm curious about the combo lathe mill. Is that a Shopmaster ? Cnc Milling Machine, Metal Lathe Mill Drill, 3 In 1 Machine is that a CNC version?

  29. #29
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    Some have mentioned about chain growth. I fail to see how it would have any chain growth if it's pivoting at the bottom bracket. I think the adjustable dropout is unnecessary since your chainstay will shorten when it flexes during compression. I would use a regular dropout along with a chain and tensioner.

  30. #30
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    Zipzit:
    A friend of mine has a hobby shop in his garage, I am simply borrowing some time in it. Here is what he has to say about it.

    "The basic info is the larger machine is a 2008'ish Shopmaster with DRO (no CNC), acme or non-ball screws (that was a mistake...really should have gotten ball-screws) and constant speed motors (i.e. not Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) so to change tool speed you need to change belts).

    The smaller mill and lathe are Sherline CNC. Around 2006'ish. This system has been abused but with replacements parts (that where a reasonable cost) it effectively operates as new. The abuse was from learning and machining parts too fast or too heavy. Not production type work.

    So basically the big machine is for hitting big stuff hard or rough cutting items for the little machine. And of course the paradigm you need a second machine to work on the first machine does apply at times"

    kosayno:
    The main point of this design is to get away from the chain. A chain tensioner (or belt tensioner) would not be ideal in this application due to the nature of the belt limitations. I guess I could design the bike with the proper chain stay length.... but alas I'm not that good.....yet.....
    Last edited by dacosta; 11-20-2012 at 10:28 PM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacosta View Post
    I guess I could design the bike with the proper chain stay length...
    I was told that trying a magic gear setup wouldn't be great as "even a quarter turn" on a Paragon style dropout positioning screw creates a measurable difference in tension.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  32. #32
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    A magic gear setup is never a good idea. After a couple hundred miles you would need to replace the chain. Sure it can be done but generally you will be riding a chain that is too loose most of the time or you will be replacing your chains very often to maintain the magic length.

  33. #33
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    Kinda what I figured... I had an White Brothers Eccentric Eno hub on my last MTB, mated "dingle" speed style to a Hammerschmidt crank. I had to adjust the hub pretty frequently. In one case it was hub slip, but over the longer haul it was chain wear (also chain *stretch*, literally, on a half link chain, the plates would bend slightly straight).
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

  34. #34
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    Here is a 29er version that I was originally working on but abandoned.
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    Last edited by dacosta; 08-27-2013 at 10:42 PM.

  35. #35
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    Here are some updates on the bike project. Updated the design for a different fork than what was originally selected, Also corrected some minor design flaws.

    Other pics:
    The intermediate linkage is done, still need to fit and finish.
    Upper pivot sleeve.
    And lower pivot spacers.

    PS. Bah can't edit old posts
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    Last edited by dacosta; 08-27-2013 at 10:48 PM.

  36. #36
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    Another update.

    Hub and parts for the rear wheel came in.

    Also finished some detail work on the linkage. Installed the bearing and bolts for show.
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    Last edited by dacosta; 08-27-2013 at 10:51 PM.

  37. #37
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    Phenomenal

  38. #38
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    Can't wait to se that bad boy in action trying to keep up with you.

  39. #39
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    I like that motorcycle chain idea.

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    Disaster!

    This week was the week planed to do the actual building of this frame. All the parts and all my tools that I needed for this project was packed away and sent on ahead of me, to the shop upon I had previously arranged to build my frame. Also I had sent my luggage with all my clothes I would need for a week. Upon my arrival, only my bike had arrived on time. Most of my parts were delayed. I had tracked my packages most were scheduled to arrive on Monday, with the rest strangling behind. But come Tuesday, the packages were lost and delivery could not be determined. At this point my trip is a bust and my project is lost. I have spent the remainder of Tuesday traveling back home. I am now expecting a fight with UPS for reimbursement of all that I have spent on this project so far.

    Fooly

  41. #41
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    You might look into a local metalworking collective - many cities have them. You usually pay a small membership fee and then can use the tools. Where were you planning to do your building?

    Sorry to hear, but don't give up on us!

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
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  42. #42
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    That sucks. Sorry bro.

  43. #43
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    You can not make anything full proof, as the world will simply make a better fool.
    TAG, your it......

  44. #44
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    I really dig the simplicity of your design, but having had a soft tail with a nearly identical chainstay setup, i'll caution you about going down that path. Chain forces will naturally want to compress the suspension and you'll get a sort of inch-worm effect. Now, my frame was built like 10 years ago before all the fancy platform valving, so that may address the problem, but just know that is an inherent issue with with this kind of design.
    Having said that, i really dig it and hope it works out well for you!

  45. #45
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    Back at it

    Fooly's Major Glory-0408131441.jpg

    Sorry for the long delay, UPS did not corporate.

    Jim Kish of Kish Fabrication, teaches the UBI titanium frame building class. I figured that if anyone would let me use his shop it would be the guy who taught me. Unfortunately Kish's shop is in North Carolina and I am from Southern California. Hence the shipping parts by UPS and all that hassle that went along with that.

    By chance I recently found retired frame builder Josh Ogle, he happens to still have all of his frame building equipment. He also letting me rent time in his shop to build my bike. And luckily he recently moved back to Southern California.

    Day one was spent on practice, practice and more practice. His equipment is a little old and has some issues that I need to learn to work around. Either that or I am rusty around machine equipment. (I mean no offense Josh if you are reading this! Really your equipment is great I am just glad that you let me into your shop!)

    Day two was spent on more practice, but I was able to miter the tubes and fit them in the frame jig. (see the attached picture) I still need to fine tune the fit, tack weld, and start welding, but that is on the plan for day 3.

    Day three will be in two weeks. Hopefully I will have a lot more pictures to show off.

  46. #46
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    Glad to see you're back in production.

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    Day 3 & 4

    opps added post in the wrong spot... how did I do that?

    ugh...
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    Last edited by dacosta; 09-02-2013 at 04:55 PM.

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    Day 3 & 4

    Back at it after another long delay. Day 3 was spent first with some practice welding, especially after the long delay. The afternoon was spent welded the seat tube collar onto the seat tube. Then welded the seat tube on to the bottom bracket shell. Then Drill out the vent holes and water bottle holes in the seat tube. Also I was able to weld the tips on to the seat stays.

    Day 4 was spent prepping the top tube for the suspension bits. Then welding the suspension bits to the top tube. Also I drilled out the vent holes in the head tube.

    Back at it again next week.

    Enjoy

    Fooly
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    Last edited by dacosta; 09-02-2013 at 04:54 PM.

  49. #49
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    Day 5, Starting to look like a bike

    Had to re-cut the down tube as I had screwed up the first one. Got all the tube set up in the frame jig, tacked it up and welded up the front triangle. Its starting to look like a bike!

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  50. #50
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    Fit and finish the linkage and shox

    Spent some time fitting and finishing the linkage and shox mounting.
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