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  1. #1
    J_K
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    Fat bike chainstays

    I have fat bike frame in plans.
    I would like to fit Bud-Lou tires. Not sure if I ever need Lou, but I would like to have that option open.
    Fitting Lou will be little bit problematic. It would need heavy dimpling if using Deda 29er chainstays and I'm not big fan of heavily dimpled stays. Another option is using 3/4" round 4130 and bend them, but there's need for big dimples with them too. I have not done any actual fitment, only drawings using Surly tire geometries. According my drawings with deda stays BFL is quite easy fit with very little dimples.

    Anyone have done fat bike frame with Lou as a rear tire? What chainstays you did use?

  2. #2
    Harrumph
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    What are you doing for drivetrain? That will be your limiting factor before chainstay clearance.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  3. #3
    J_K
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    170mm rear, 1x10 drivetrain with either Raceface next sl with direct mount ring or sram x9 with wolftooth components direct mount ring. Should clear lou according to my drawings, but it will be tight.
    Last edited by J_K; 09-15-2013 at 08:55 AM. Reason: added crank info

  4. #4
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    Make your chainstays a little longer.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  5. #5
    J_K
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    How much is good clearance for the widest point of tires? I have done my drawings with 8mm clearance, for 29er I shoot for 5mm clearance, but for the fat tires I would like to have more clearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Make your chainstays a little longer.

    -Walt
    That's on option.
    I wish the Deda 29er chainstay are little longer, they limit chainstay length little bit.

  6. #6
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    What dropouts are you using? If you use low mounts/Polys/sliders/rockers/etc (ie something with long tabs) you can easily do 500+mm chainstays. Shouldn't be an issue unless you don't like tabbed/plate dropouts for some reason.

    I usually shoot for a minimum of 5mm at each side for the largest tire I'll conceivably use. For XC bikes that's usually a total clearance of about 70mm at the widest point of the knobs.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  7. #7
    J_K
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    The plan is to use Paragons DR2010 dropouts, but lately I have been thinking about using flat sliding dropouts. Sliders would be nice when using smaller tires than Lou.

  8. #8
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    go for the Paragon DR2026, DR2034 or DR2030.

  9. #9
    J_K
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    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
    go for the Paragon DR2026, DR2034 or DR2030.
    I want to place brake caliper higher to avoid the snow build up on the calliper, so those are not an option for me. Although it's possible to leave disc mount unused and mount the caliper on the seatstay.

  10. #10
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    Last fat bike I built, I used 2Souls sliding dropouts - they have the disc mount above the axle, on the sliding section. Plus, because of the design, you can terminate the CS at an angle to the dropout which was handy on the RH chainstay.

    That was a Rohloff build, though, with offset 135mm rear end.

  11. #11
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    I just finished a fatty that I wanted to use Deda big bend CS's but there wasn't enough length *above* the bend to get the bend in the right spot for the widest point of the tire with even 450mm stays. I was hoping to try the new Nova stays since I heard they have more length above the bend but they weren't in stock. So I found a pair of single bend stays I got awhile ago from bikelugs.com (already has a dimple on the outside for the chainring clearance) that worked really well and I didn't have to dimple them. Not sure if any are still around though or where they originally came from.
    The rider wanted a 2x setup so I just went with a Nate on a RD so it's not that hard to get clearance for that setup. The front however will have the Lou. The Lou/Bud's are WAY bigger than BFL's. The BFL's are barely bigger than a Nate on a RD as far as width.

    I did some drawings made these notes to myself: (these should be double-checked by someone else so don't take my word on it. These are with 170 hub and 100mm BB shell):
    - a Lou/Bud on a Clown Shoe will NOT fit with the SRAM X9 direct drive and a 26t ring, or with a Surly OD 2x crank. Chain hits tire.

    - A Lou/Bud on a Rolling Darryl WILL fit if the chainstays are at least 465mm (Moonlander length). But there is very little wiggle room, it'll probably rub in the lowest gear. This is with an X9 single ring or the 2x Surly OD Moonlander crank. Chainline again will suck in lower gears though.

    - Nate on a Clown Shoe will fit with the X9/26t crank on 'shorter' chainstays (450).
    It'd be really tight using a regular (non-Moonlander) Surly OD crankset but may fit with longer chainstays (>465mm).

    - Nate on a Rolling Darryl is pretty easy to fit with whatever you want - 2x Mr. Whirly or OD crankset and shorter length chainstays.

    I made a frame that fit a BFL with 465 chainstays and a 1x but it had a bad chainline when in lower cogs. It had E-stays so chainstays weren't in the way.

  12. #12
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    Fatty manifesto

    Don't disregard the Paragon lowriders because of snow build up. Reference my #4 thread. I feel like I started that rumor and it's gone wild. I did notice that the caliper on my lowriders collected more snow than the seatstay mounts of other riders. But it didn't cause any noticeable degradation of performance in honestly epic conditions.

    I looked at using the Deddidaccciaciia super bendy chainstaystays and found the bends were in the wrong locations to work with a 100mm shell around a big tire. I ended up using that generation of Nova 29er stays(rumor is sourced from TT?).

    What's the chainline on the single ring XX1 styler cranks? My #4 build used a 170rear/ClownShoe-HuskerDU/and 2x front rings. I planned it this way and dropped the smallest 3 cogs on the cassette and replaced the third with a 14t "outer" cog, spacing the now 8speed 10s cassette out a few mm. And I still get a bit of chain rub on the tire in the big(36t)cog and small(27t) ring. That's with 3.8 tires, 450mm chainstays, lots of bb drop and a Middleburn 2x rs7 crank.

    I had bigger problems with the seatstays than the chainstays. If you are depending on pre-bent items, it's challenging to get the available seatstays wrapped around big rubber.

    Here's how I'd hit your goals of 4.8s on 100mm rims with a full 1x10:
    -Use the Race Face fatty 100mm spindle crank, and mount your single ring on the outside ("big") position.

    -Offset your rear axle 5mm to the drive side.

    -Be able to add some bend to the seatstays.

    -Use the Paragon Lowrider Drops.

    -Find a compromise with chainstay length and cutting down the lowriders/bends/chain clearance/heal clearance(that's a big one for winter bikes even with 100mm bbs).

    I don't want to come off as negative in any way. But I've lost sleep over this exact kind of thing, and executed in metal what I've thought about while not sleeping. 100% happy to discuss things further/be proved wrong.

    Last edited by G-reg; 09-16-2013 at 09:40 AM. Reason: cell phone typing
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  13. #13
    J_K
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    Now that's the info I was looking for! Thank you for both of you!

    It seems that bend on the Deda stays is in the wrong place for a fat tires. Need to look another options or do more planning with the Dedas. Actually I was just looking those single bend Pacenti stays, if they are the ones with 17 degree bend. Whit, can you tell me placement of the bend, so I can do some more drawings?
    I don't necessarily need room for a Lou and it looks like it's bad idea as chainline needs to be moved more outboard and maybe even needs wider q-factor moonlander cranks. Maybe it's time to make the decision and admit that Nate on a 80mm rim is enough .

    Race Face Next SL with direct mount 26t or 28t ring is my first choice for the cranks, the chainline is 68mm and q-factor is 202mm with 175.1mm inside clearance of arm to arm, although they are not available yet.

    Then there's 190 rear hubs to give more headache

    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    Don't disregard the Paragon lowriders because of snow build up. Reference my #4 thread. I feel like I started that rumor and it's gone wild. I did notice that the caliper on my lowriders collected more snow than the seatstay mounts of other riders. But it didn't cause any noticeable degradation of performance in honestly epic conditions.
    I saw your post about of snow build up, but I was thinking it before that. Good to know it hasn't caused any noticeable degradation of performance, so I will keep low mounts on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post

    What's the chainline on the single ring XX1 styler cranks?
    Actually I don't know that. Wolftooth Components says the chainline is 50mm for the 73mm BB cranks.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    I had bigger problems with the seatstays than the chainstays. If you are depending on pre-bent items, it's challenging to get the available seatstays wrapped around big rubber.
    I plan to bend my own seatstays.

  14. #14
    Nemophilist
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    Hey;

    Did I see anywhere that you mentioned what rim width you are going to use?
    Most people ply the Well Trodden Path. A few seek a different way, and leave a Trail behind.
    - John Hajny, a.k.a. TrailMaker

  15. #15
    J_K
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    Hey;

    Did I see anywhere that you mentioned what rim width you are going to use?
    No I did mention that.
    If I go for a Lou I'm going to use 100mm rim or with a Nate I'm going to use 80/82mm rim.

  16. #16
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    Fat bike chainstays-cs-mockup.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by J_K View Post
    Whit, can you tell me placement of the bend, so I can do some more drawings?
    I don't necessarily need room for a Lou and it looks like it's bad idea as chainline needs to be moved more outboard and maybe even needs wider q-factor moonlander cranks. Maybe it's time to make the decision and admit that Nate on a 80mm rim is enough .
    The unknown single bend chainstays i got from BikeLugs have a 16 degree bend (not sure the radius). They're not on the website anymore so I'm assuming they were made by True Temper for a bigger company and they were overstock or something. Sounds like the new Nova's may be the best call when they're back in stock, or bend your own.
    Here's my drawing with those stays in place.

  17. #17
    J_K
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meriwether View Post
    The unknown single bend chainstays i got from BikeLugs have a 16 degree bend (not sure the radius). They're not on the website anymore so I'm assuming they were made by True Temper for a bigger company and they were overstock or something. Sounds like the new Nova's may be the best call when they're back in stock, or bend your own.
    Here's my drawing with those stays in place.
    Thanks for the info!
    I think I know where I can get pair of those if needed.

  18. #18
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    Those are the old chainstays that GF used for the Ferrous. They are great! I have a big pile, wish I'd bought more.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  19. #19
    Nemophilist
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    Hmmmph...

    I cant seem to make sense of the Surly tire numbers. They just don't jive for me. I'm dumb I guess. I did my spacing calculations the dummy way. I made a cardboard template of the tire mounted on the rim to get the real world shape and measurements. Surest way I knew to do it. Worked like a charm. Whit and I worked on a thread on here about tire profiles and clearances, but I don't remember Lou on Clowns being around at the time. If I had some, I'd sure do my cardboard and scissors thing for ya, pardner.

    One thing to keep in mind regarding side clearances is the need for mud room, and also for the rather notorious amounts of runout these blimpy tires can have sometimes. I tried for 10mm per side, and was happy with 8. Good thing, because the tread blocks on a Nate are just a tad bigger than the HuDus I designed for.
    Most people ply the Well Trodden Path. A few seek a different way, and leave a Trail behind.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    Hmmmph...

    I cant seem to make sense of the Surly tire numbers. They just don't jive for me. I'm dumb I guess. I did my spacing calculations the dummy way. I made a cardboard template of the tire mounted on the rim to get the real world shape and measurements.
    That sounds like the opposite of the "dummy way" - the distrustful way, perhaps, but in this case that's a positive..
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  21. #21
    Harrumph
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    Also my barely acceptable chain rub is barely acceptable because my HuskerDu is stretched out on the Clownshoe. And the widest point is sidewall. If you've seen a Lou mounted up.... It's by far a whole bunch of big ass knobs are at the widest point and won't play well with a chain getting in the way.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  22. #22
    J_K
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    Hmmmph...

    I cant seem to make sense of the Surly tire numbers. They just don't jive for me. I'm dumb I guess. I did my spacing calculations the dummy way. I made a cardboard template of the tire mounted on the rim to get the real world shape and measurements. Surest way I knew to do it. Worked like a charm. Whit and I worked on a thread on here about tire profiles and clearances, but I don't remember Lou on Clowns being around at the time. If I had some, I'd sure do my cardboard and scissors thing for ya, pardner.

    One thing to keep in mind regarding side clearances is the need for mud room, and also for the rather notorious amounts of runout these blimpy tires can have sometimes. I tried for 10mm per side, and was happy with 8. Good thing, because the tread blocks on a Nate are just a tad bigger than the HuDus I designed for.
    That sounds like how it should be done, I like that.
    I would prefer to have wheels and the tires to get actual measurements, but that's not possible yet.

  23. #23
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    Fat bike chainstays

    I have a Bud on a Darryl in hand, if anyone wants the measurements I can post it on the thread Trailmaker references...

    But this "table" from Surly is a great start pretty accurate (I think Walt already posted this awhile ago but it's hard to find so here it is again!):
    http://surlybikes.com/blog/post/how_fat_can_we_go

  24. #24
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    My fat tyre clearance gauge:

    Fat bike chainstays-935921_550492688322433_680506913_n.jpg

    I'm thinking of patenting that...

  25. #25
    J_K
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meriwether View Post
    I have a Bud on a Darryl in hand, if anyone wants the measurements I can post it on the thread Trailmaker references...
    Please post the measurements on the fat tire profile thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meriwether View Post
    But this "table" from Surly is a great start pretty accurate (I think Walt already posted this awhile ago but it's hard to find so here it is again!):
    How Fat can we go? | Blog | Surly Bikes
    That's what I have been using to do my drawings and calculations, good to know it's pretty accurate.

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