Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 93
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames

    Good day MTBR,

    Sorta skipping the roll call here... I'm Thierry, been building frames very very part time since 2002 now and I enjoy reading this forum. I think it's a great place where a lot of knowledge is shared and I beleive this is the most awesome thing about this forum. I've been working on a little project for a few days now and I thought this would make a good write-up so here it goes.

    Basically my gf had just gotten into mountain biking, she loves it and I personally just dropped off DH for more of an All-Mountain type of riding. So we talked and came to the conclusion that what we needed was a double suspension enduro/all mountain frame that tends to be more on the cross country side. So a 4ish" x 4ish" upgradeable to 5" in the front if needed.

    So here's what they'll look like :

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-fyah6_zpsef25a488.jpeg


    Here's a 2d of the design followed by the goemetry.

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-fyah2d_zpsf870ad53.jpg
    Name:  Geo_zpsf0d01bd3.jpg
Views: 2930
Size:  83.9 KB

    This is an all steel frame except for the two sideplates, which are, of course Aluminum.

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-fyah5_zps0ca8e7c6.jpeg

    Tube details :
    HT : Custon CNC'd from 4130, 44mm
    DT : 1-1/2" x .035" 4130
    TT : True Temper HAVRDT 1-1/4" x 9-7-9
    ST : True Temper VERUSSTMAG2 1-3/8" external butt 1.6/0.8
    Cross tube : 1" x .028" 4130
    BB : 1-1/2" x 73mm (paragon)
    Pivot tube : 1-3/4" x .065" 4130
    CS : 5/8" Square x .035" 4130
    SS : 5/8" square x .035"
    Dropouts : paragon 1-1/8 round (GF) 1-1/2 round for 12x142 (mine)

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-fyah7_zps28a87a96.jpeg

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-fyah8_zps7976a401.jpeg

    Here's an exploded view of the pivot assembly :
    Bearings (bottom bracket bearings) in teal
    Spacers in red
    Bearing cups in black
    Axle in grey

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-fyah10_zps7999605e.jpeg

    Here's 2d view :
    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-fyahpivotdetail_zpsedec9689.jpg

    Most of the tubes and parts are ordered already, gonna be designing a custom jig to make them here in the next few days. I'm hoping building can begin in 2-3 weeks from now.

    Cheers !

  2. #2
    Harrumph
    Reputation: G-reg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,600
    You should put a little more thought into that whole mess....






















    Just kidding , looks like quite a bit of time was spent here.

    Is the suspension geometry based on an existing design? Where/how are you getting your links made?

    And if you missed this 18Bikes' thread, those look like some steel frames that need a nice tapered HT.....
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  3. #3
    Most Delicious
    Reputation: dr.welby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,102
    Looks fun - is there enough chainring clearance though?

  4. #4
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,767
    That toptube can no way, no how handle what you want to do with it - you'll be welding your crossbrace through the thin section of the tube. Go for supertherm or straightgauge.

    IMO for aggro riding the .035 downtube won't be able to handle mounting a pivot like that, I would go with something beefier (Supertherm!) or find a way to completely capture the pivot with the tube.

    I would bump up the chainstays in size as well - 5/8" square is not going to be very stiff and will be super heavy. Round tube is your best bet for strength/weight.

    Keep us updated! Looks like a great project.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.com/blog/
    instagram.com/waltworks/

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103

    We the people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    You should put a little more thought into that whole mess....

    Just kidding , looks like quite a bit of time was spent here.

    Is the suspension geometry based on an existing design? Where/how are you getting your links made?

    And if you missed this 18Bikes' thread, those look like some steel frames that need a nice tapered HT.....
    I figure I'd try this pivot location since it seem to give a good rear wheel path and didn't cause too much chain growth. I then located the shock accordingly. Single pivots are pretty straightforward. All in all, I think it looks like a lot of single pivot bikes out there. Just wanted to keep it simple and have it to work with the frame geometries I decided to go with (rear wheel clears ST properly without being overly long, able to put a the shock tabs on the DT without interfering, shock clears ST properly... etc..)

    I'm having the links' blanks waterjetted by a subcontractant out of 3/8" alu plate, then it goes onto a second operation on a CNC milling machine. CNCing is done by a good friend of mine.

    Yeah I've seen those tapered headtubes 18 bikes is manufacturing, they look good. The problem I have with a tapered headtube is I just can't seem to figure out a way to make the DT and TT notches other than with a file. So until somebody comes up with a tapered/straight endmill that matches the profile of a tapered headtube, straight 44mm headtube will be... at least for me !

    Thanks !

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    Walt,

    Toptube : Supertherm 1-1/4" x 1-0.7-1, sold.

    Chainstays : 3/4" x .035" , 3/4 x .049" or 7/8"x .035" or a chainstay specific tube, what would you recommend ?

    Pivot tube and DT: I was a little worried there too. I first drew it with another 1-1/2" x .035" tube that wrapped the pivot... then said to myself "Aaaaaaa... it'll be all right" Your comment confirms my worries. I chose a straightgage tube obviously because I'd be welding quite of bit of stuff on it and doing so to the thin section of a butted tube didn't seem too too awesome to me. I'll go back to the dwg board with this.

    Your input is very much appreciated. Thanks.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    Dr. Welby,

    both gonna be 1x10 with 32 or 34 tooth chainring. Clearance won't be a problem !

  8. #8
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,767
    3/4 x .035 should be enough for the chainstays provided you've worked with this kind of thin wall steel before. The seatstays can be .028" probably, I'd just make them 3/4" as well. 7/8" is probably overkill but if you can make room for your tire/chainrings/etc then you could go for it if you want to.

    The 1.5" Supertherm tube (BMXSTDT03? I can't remember the part number off the top of my head) has really long butts and should allow you to attach the pivot to the 1mm section. I would still try to somehow get yourself some more surface area for the pivot/DT joint if possible - you probably don't need to fully capture it but perching it on top of the tube like that is a recipe for disaster.

    I've done the BB-as pivot and it works great. If you want to go a little smaller on the pivot to make that joint easier to build, think about using some 1" headset bearings instead. Still plenty stiff enough (at least in my experience) and much smaller and easier to deal with.

    Man, I love to see people doing FS bikes here. I learn a ton every time.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.com/blog/
    instagram.com/waltworks/

  9. #9
    Most Delicious
    Reputation: dr.welby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,102
    Quote Originally Posted by TLKD View Post
    Dr. Welby,

    both gonna be 1x10 with 32 or 34 tooth chainring. Clearance won't be a problem !
    Good! I'd hate to have to tell my girlfriend "Uh sweetie, you know that bike I've been building for you for the last six months..."

  10. #10
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,961
    Good effort, but it's just a single pivot. Why make the rear end so flimsy, comples, and expensive when you could just weld it together properly?

  11. #11
    WIGGLER
    Reputation: todwil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    896
    Looks good the only thing I would add is gusseting from the pivot to the ST to take advantage of that triangle intersection spreading the load out!!!
    PAYASO 36er.....Live the Circus

    MR. 36er TROLL


  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,764
    Your frame looks very similar to an Xprezo frame.

    They use Columbus Zona butted tubes for the rear triangle. Not sure what the exact specs are, but you could likely figure it out.

  13. #13
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    Hey;

    It seems to me that if you did a little rejiggering of things, you could nest that pivot housing in BOTH the DT and ST and alleviate any possible overloading from only using the DT. I also sort of agree with PVD that the rear triangle is potentially needlessly complex with the alloy rocker plates instead of a welded connecting member and longer stays-to-pivot, but with perhaps a different or additional reason. I wondered if 3/8 thickness would give you sufficient lateral stiffness within just the rocker itself?
    Most people ply the Well Trodden Path. A few seek a different way, and leave a Trail behind.
    - John Hajny, a.k.a. TrailMaker

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Eric Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    869
    I'll add my agreement with TM on the shifting the pivot if possible to nestle between the ST and DT. I admit that I am more a structure person than a Suspension type, but I see the better design path you've used to the rear axle path being true vertical and in the more complex way of acheiving that goal. The Mono Shock style brings the rear wheel into conflict with the seat tube at full compression, so I see your thinking here.
    This needs a more expert over-view by a more experienced person to comment and I hope someone will on the merits of the lateral stiffness.

    I like what you have put together thus far.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    PVD, TrailMaker, EricM, Todwil

    I gotta agree with you guys. I'll go back to the drawing board and work on the rear triangle for a bit. I'll see if I could also relocate the pivot backwards a few thousands but doing so means I also have to relocate the shock mount, this may interfere with the downtube or seattube...

    I'll keep you posted.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,764
    Why have the extra tube bisecting the toptube?

    The Santa Cruz Heckler has always been a great riding bike. I'd look at modelling things off the Heckler with your updates to geometry and custom sizing.

  17. #17
    Moderator Moderator
    Reputation: Walt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,767
    I'll second that. If you want to build a high single pivot just copy what Santa Cruz has done with whatever geometry tweaks you want.

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.com/blog/
    instagram.com/waltworks/

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,764
    Moving the pivot forward would solve a couple issues. The Santa Cruz pivot is fully in the downtube.


  19. #19
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    A Good Choice;

    When I modeled a FS Fatbike, I decided very early on that a single pivot would be just the ticket for a novice builder, and naturally thought of the Legendary Heckler to model it after. It does not hurt one bit that I happen to have one hanging in the garage either. A good riding bike it definitely is!
    Most people ply the Well Trodden Path. A few seek a different way, and leave a Trail behind.
    - John Hajny, a.k.a. TrailMaker

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Feldybikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    690
    $0.02...

    -If you do stick with this general design, I don't see why you wouldn't just use off the shelf seatstays and chainstays rather than 4130.

    -If you want to capture more of the pivot between the ST and DT but not move the pivot, you could offset either or both. And/or use a 1.75" Supertherm DT.

    -I don't see this design as needlessly complex for a home builder. Those Al plates would be much heavier made out of steel and if you were to use tubular steel it would be much more complicated. Also, the pivot location seems to be pretty far back compared to a Heckler, so that might be what he's going for.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    Good evening fellow builders,

    I can't look at an elevated chainstay bike, so copying the heckler or make something similar that I'm very not crazy about, that I'm gonna ride and have to look at for the next few years isn't a viable option for me.

    What you see down there is take #2 with a unified rear triangle, the machinist in me had a little bit of a hard time letting go the CNC'd sideplate but that's all right since I managed to make one sideplate on the driveside.

    I didn't move the pivot but reinforced the pivot section, added a 1" x .035" on top of the pivot tube and I did reposition the seat tube not in line with the center of the BB (so the notch of the pivot grabs a bit of that tube as well). I understand that this is lots of beads in a pretty small area...

    Not any less complicated than the sideplate option imo but it's all for a better bike I beleive. And I think I rather the look of this one.

    Chainstays are the long 465mm 29er novas, I represented the non-driveside without the bend for the tire clearance... Now I'd just need an advice on how to "unbend" a bent chainstay ! Any advices on that would be much appreciated ! If that can't be done then I'll have to choose another tube for the NDS chainstay.

    Anybody's got a suggestion on the thoughest seatstays out there ? I would like to use the stronger supertherm stuff but they ain't long enough since they're BMX specific. Can't take a call...

    DT will be supertherm as well.

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-unirt1_zps540aef78.jpeg

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-unirt2_zpse0fd423f.jpeg

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-unirt3_zps0a2070d4.jpeg

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-unirt4_zpsf87ba389.jpeg

  22. #22
    Grinder
    Reputation: nogod's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    337
    What shock are you planning on using?
    Quote Originally Posted by a stoned guy with a beer in his hand eyeballing your sisters bike
    "i fit my bike to fit me;not for looks...nice did you buy that bike from jc whitney?" Stoner Island 1984

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Eric Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    869
    Well, this looks interesting.

    Any frame that has the direct link to the rear wheel and BB shell cut away will suffer BB rotation. This can be designed out by using various methods including heavier gauged tubing and/or larger Dia tube, bracing and sleeves. My concern with the original was to do with the bearings taking that load instead with the multi linkage that was to be used. I liked it otherwise. The bracing now used at the pivot will be good. I understand the pivot placement for the travel you are looking for and this in combo will address the bearing load somewhat, but I wonder if you have lost that nice vertical wheel movement. These bikes seem to be hard on pivot movement in a lateral sense.
    You could use a fork blade for that chainstay if the dimensions work out to use one. They are very similar in dimensions and could work for you.

    You are rendering drawings very well, and the proportions are also good. I like the cross tube. 'Sus' bikes are interesting in that they don't follow the 'rules' so much and this makes them innovative. Keep working on it. They call this part the frustration zone, its easy to push the save button and try a new theme. You're moving in the right direction - having a go, building up a design profile, keep up the good work.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Feldybikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    690
    I'd use Deda chain stays. You're making 2 bikes (?) so if you want 1 straight and 1 bent, just mix'n'match 2 pairs!

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    Quote Originally Posted by nogod View Post
    What shock are you planning on using?
    Fox Float CTD.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Malcolm View Post
    Well, this looks interesting.

    Any frame that has the direct link to the rear wheel and BB shell cut away will suffer BB rotation. This can be designed out by using various methods including heavier gauged tubing and/or larger Dia tube, bracing and sleeves. My concern with the original was to do with the bearings taking that load instead with the multi linkage that was to be used. I liked it otherwise. The bracing now used at the pivot will be good. I understand the pivot placement for the travel you are looking for and this in combo will address the bearing load somewhat, but I wonder if you have lost that nice vertical wheel movement. These bikes seem to be hard on pivot movement in a lateral sense.
    You could use a fork blade for that chainstay if the dimensions work out to use one. They are very similar in dimensions and could work for you.

    You are rendering drawings very well, and the proportions are also good. I like the cross tube. 'Sus' bikes are interesting in that they don't follow the 'rules' so much and this makes them innovative. Keep working on it. They call this part the frustration zone, its easy to push the save button and try a new theme. You're moving in the right direction - having a go, building up a design profile, keep up the good work.

    Eric
    Thanks for the kind words Eric !

    Fork blades could be a good idea for the Non-Drive side chainstays. Length could still be an issue I think.

    Lateral stiffness and bearing load : worst case scenario if those bearings fail under normal abuse, I'll design new cups that can take a stack of 2 bearing side by side, making them 4 to take the load instead of 2. Lateral stiffness of the rear triangle... I guess a guy can't really do much on this after he has chosen the tubes, notched them and everything is welded...

    Here's a detail view of the pivot location and rear wheel path. This is on mine where the CSL sits at 17.25" at rest. I'm hoping this will feel great and pedal good. A guy never know right 'til he throws a leg over it, eh ! Worst case scenario, if this thing bobs like a mofo, I'll just lock the shock !!!

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-path_zpsf6ee669c.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Feldybikes View Post
    I'd use Deda chain stays. You're making 2 bikes (?) so if you want 1 straight and 1 bent, just mix'n'match 2 pairs!
    Yes, making 2. Mix and match is, indeed, a good idea. I just looked at Deda chainstays, they're too short.

    My main problem is that I need 436mm of length (direct measurment) for the NDS chainstay (if those stays are 30mm high) from the disc side dropout to the NDS of the pivot. Add a bend into this tube and 440mm long chainstays become just too short... That's why I drew them images with the 465mm stays which still seem to be my only option... Maybe I could just weld them on outside in and work the bend off the small end...

    Some stuff showed up in the mail today... Now I'm becoming the bottleneck of the project as I must send my tooling order out ASAP !!!

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-img_5766r_zpsd89410c9.jpg

    Out of those parts, the zip-tie cable guides are what caused my jaw to drop. These guys are machining every bit of it and there are noburrs, no nothing to add besides, holy.... Just very impressed by them so far !

    Still looking for inputs on seatstays btw...

  26. #26
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,961
    Much better. KISS.
    Make it happen.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    285
    Thats pretty high leverage by todays standards, might have some trouble with shock tuning? Less leverage would reduce some stresses in the frame too.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Feldybikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    690
    I was referring more to the DS than NDS for the Deda stay since they have a nice bend.

    I don't think you can really go too wrong with seatstays whatever you pick. I mean, double taper 14mm stays might look weird, but besides that, you're probably good. Hell, even MAX stays might be kinda cool. I'd probably just do 19mm single taper whatever (on the thicker walled side) or 3/4 x 0.035" straight gauge. Actually, bikelugs might have non-tapering stays still. I think I got some from them at some point.

    And as for the pivot being too small comment, the aforementioned Heckler example doesn't have the biggest pivot in the world and AFAIK they hold up fine.

    Why no disc mount from Paragon? Never used it, but I would think the premitered one that goes with their DOs would be super convenient. Speaking of a disc mount, someone will probably mention at some point that a brace between the SS and CS wouldn't be a bad idea.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    396
    I had a superlight 29 and was very impressed with the suspension action. Agreed with taking a queue from Santa Cruz on geometry. Of course you don't necessarily have to use elevated chainstays like they do, if you can figure out a way to have the pivots in the same places. The Superlight has 4" travel compared to the heckler's 6" (right?) so i'd compare the two for any differences because of that.

    Cool project!
    Bend, OR

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: becik's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    50
    Your first design as previously said looks a lot like an xprezo.
    might be interesthing to have a look...Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-image_8.jpg
    Xprezo - Fabrication 100% canadienne

    i don't know excly what lenght eye to eye your shock is but your rendering seems a bit short.
    also you will find that xprezo are also insatlling the shock mount on the top tube. as some allready suggested.
    Xprezo are also using a scizor link in the top of the swing arm to prevent flex.
    Si ca monte, ca va forcément redescendre un moment donné.
    www.becikcycles.com

  31. #31
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,961
    Best to desgn around a mid-stroke shock so the damping is in the ballpark. It should give you tuning range as well.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Eric Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    869
    Hey, thanks for the drawing and preserving the rear wheel movement.

    You may have to design the chainstays to be the same both sides, rather than having a direct to pivot route on the NDS.

    Seat stays in the single taper 17-19mm range will be fine.

    One bearing each side is fine, my bearing supplier suggests tapered bearings, but they are so big and heavy. In a pure load sense, he is probably right, but we don't have a motor to help us get down or up the road...

    Have fun

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    Quote Originally Posted by becik View Post
    Your first design as previously said looks a lot like an xprezo.
    might be interesthing to have a look...

    i don't know excly what lenght eye to eye your shock is but your rendering seems a bit short.
    also you will find that xprezo are also insatlling the shock mount on the top tube. as some allready suggested.
    Xprezo are also using a scizor link in the top of the swing arm to prevent flex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teague View Post
    Thats pretty high leverage by todays standards, might have some trouble with shock tuning? Less leverage would reduce some stresses in the frame too.

    Leverage ratio is 3.41 to 1 on my frame (17.25" chainstays) and 3.37 to 1 on the gf's frame (16.75" chainstays). Using a 1.5" stroke shock instead of a 1.25" to get the same rear wheel travel would get the ratio down to 2.86/2.78 to 1.
    Personally I don't think it's completely out of the ballpark... but I'll think about it over the week-end...

    Shock mount tab on top tube, could only be possible if I was to relocate the pivot forward and up (like most Xprezos, SC Heckler, etc...) With the pivot location I've got now, I can't. Everything else results from this particular location.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Malcolm View Post
    Hey, thanks for the drawing and preserving the rear wheel movement.

    You may have to design the chainstays to be the same both sides, rather than having a direct to pivot route on the NDS.

    Seat stays in the single taper 17-19mm range will be fine.

    One bearing each side is fine, my bearing supplier suggests tapered bearings, but they are so big and heavy. In a pure load sense, he is probably right, but we don't have a motor to help us get down or up the road...

    Have fun

    Eric
    Chainstays, I understand they'd "work" more equally as in one side wouldn't be strongeer than the other, but we've seen different routing of stays on each side lots already... and I like'em that way and don't want a second CNC piece out of steel to make for the bike !

    Tapered bearings would be awesome if they were in "our sizes". They just don't make'em small & light ! I was hoping to find some BB brackets bearings that would have angular contact but so far no luck. So I'll just stick with my first idea to use good quality enduro BB bearings and ride' the bike that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feldybikes View Post
    I was referring more to the DS than NDS for the Deda stay since they have a nice bend.

    I don't think you can really go too wrong with seatstays whatever you pick. I mean, double taper 14mm stays might look weird, but besides that, you're probably good. Hell, even MAX stays might be kinda cool. I'd probably just do 19mm single taper whatever (on the thicker walled side) or 3/4 x 0.035" straight gauge. Actually, bikelugs might have non-tapering stays still. I think I got some from them at some point.

    And as for the pivot being too small comment, the aforementioned Heckler example doesn't have the biggest pivot in the world and AFAIK they hold up fine.

    Why no disc mount from Paragon? Never used it, but I would think the premitered one that goes with their DOs would be super convenient. Speaking of a disc mount, someone will probably mention at some point that a brace between the SS and CS wouldn't be a bad idea.
    No disc brake tab from Paragon cauz I'll just have my own laser cut and I won't have to touch it... well almost won't have to touch it, just take a lick off of it... !

    That's right, gotta add a little piece of tube to create a brace down there.

    Thank you all for the suggestions on the seatstays.

    Cheers.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103

    Tapered Bearings are available !

    Looks like i've talked too fast,

    those guys are selling taper roller bearing'd BB :

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-taperedrollerbbbearing_zps7f436a11.jpg

    Superstar Components - High Spec Parts For Peanuts

    The bearings alone seem availble too but I just doesn't know if this comes with the tapered race that goes inside the cup. bearings alone are spendy though, seems like a way better deal to buy the whole BB and turn off the cups to nothing to release the tapered race and get 2 bearings.

    This looks like the best bearing option so far to me anyways.


    I also decided to go forward with the 1.5" stroke shock idea to get the leverage ratio down.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Eric Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    869
    Brilliant!!!!!

    Well, a top notch build on the way here indeed.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    The 1-3/8" True temper seat tubes showed up and man are they ever HEAVY... duty. So, wanting to keep the weight down a bit I decided to use the reynolds 853 seat tube that's 1-1/4" x 1.2 x .06 x .09

    Since this seat tube won't be used I decided to salvage it into something useful and give it a try. First time with welding bike specific steel tubing and first time with weldmold 880 rod (buddy of mine was welding the bikes I was designing before). Did lots of .035" 4130 last winter with acceptable results.

    Today I had a "rage" to weld, I'm sure some of you guys understand what that is, eh. You go from being perfectly fine besides maybe having to take a piss, and then all of a sudden, you'd just want to be behind your helmet and lay beads... Anyhows, I decided to wack off a little test frame real quick off of that seat tube to try to reproduce some of the joints I'll have to weld on the bikes. Here's the "finished" product.

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-img_5785r_zpse2ec771a.jpg

    All 1-3/8" tubing except the little cross tube which is 1"x .035" 4130
    BB is 1.6mm thick (thick sectin of the butted seat tube)
    HT, ST and "DT" (or is it a TT???) are 0.8mm thick

    The trained eye will see a huge pin hole on the DT/ST juntion. That's what happens when you forget to drill a vent hole...

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-img_5774r_zps69bcd8e0.jpg


    Here's what the inside of the HT looks like:

    Building 2 enduro/cc steel frames-img_5782r_zps793ef23f.jpg


    Any constructive inputs are more than welcome here.

    Cheers. Thierry
    Last edited by TLKD; 04-24-2013 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Redid pic links

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    396
    the image attachments don't seem to be working. At least i can't see them. I am logged in.
    Bend, OR

  38. #38
    Nemophilist
    Reputation: TrailMaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,873
    Quote Originally Posted by TroyS600 View Post
    the image attachments don't seem to be working. At least i can't see them. I am logged in.
    Yep.
    Most people ply the Well Trodden Path. A few seek a different way, and leave a Trail behind.
    - John Hajny, a.k.a. TrailMaker

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    Redid the links, should be good now.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103

    Mid may update

    Hi fellow builders,

    been a while since I posted ! Got a bit done and as usual I consider myself behind schedule.

    So... I got those tapered roller BBs and got them out of there, just a little heat worked out perfect ! Thes will work just awesome for the main pivot.


    Got a big laser cut order, among the pile of stuff are those "driveside chainstay CNC piece raw material. Most of that steel is gonna go away once it's done of course... !!!


    Here are the custom jigs I made for the frames. In the back there's the rear end's jig and that big plate is the front triangle's jig. I'm trying something new here which is using the jig as a notching jig as well. It will be very useful for the other stuff I manufacture (not bike related).
    Rear end jig allows me to precisely locate all the key points. I also had holes cut out to fit a BB shell in there to screw in my crank to validate clearance.


    Fast forward to the head tube notch in the DT and TT. Don't ask me why the rough cut on the DT is that off OK !!!!!!! Lucky on this one I had enough meat !!!


    Worked great, tube clamping system is stiff enough, no aligning, no measuring no f'ing around whatsoever besides aligning the butts where you want which can be eyeballed if marked.


    TT to ST miter before :


    TT to ST miter after :


    Cross tube miter thru TT :


    Forgot to take a picture of that notch once that's done. You guys get the point anyways.

    I think this would be the next step in framebuilding jig design. If a guy could come up with something like this integrated in an Anvil jig so you can miter everything in place and not measure or mark much, I think it would be awesome... Maybe I'm off the track here too... I'm not a real "framebuilder", I just build tools and frames for myself as I need them !

    Fast forward to a 90% completed frame ready to be tacked:


    Then welded the thing 'til the pot in my pedal crapped out on me right at the TT/ST junction you see on that 2nd pic down from here :




    Waiting on a new pedal to show up here before the week-end under warranty. Gotta give those folks at Everlast welders canada some positive feedbacks cause they sure took care of my problem. 11PM last night, I sent them an email confirming that the pot in the pedal was the problem. 7AM this morning they had already emailed me back saying it's covered under warranty, 9AM I had the waybill confirmation that a new pedal was sent to me. In my book this is in the "awesome" category of customer service.

    Anyhows, more pics and to come in a week or so.

    Cheers !

  41. #41
    Harrumph
    Reputation: G-reg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,600
    Woah, cool to see how professional fabricators attack frame building without "framebuilder" bias/experience.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  42. #42
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Eric Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    869
    Whoa.... thats massive.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  43. #43
    WIGGLER
    Reputation: todwil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    896
    Thierry great job masterful!!!
    PAYASO 36er.....Live the Circus

    MR. 36er TROLL


  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103
    Another week has passed and it seems like I haven't done anything again.

    Managed to finish 96% my front triangle...

    welded the 1" x .028" reinforcing tube on the DT / ST junction for the main pivot tube.



    Then got the big arsenal out. My new, fresh out of the oven, perpendicular-to-a-plate notching device which consist of a steel sleeve at 0.001" overbore to allow my swag off road super shaft to slide thru and notch some tubes !







    Milwaukee holesaw dead in its hole. Was brand new, I burnt it ! Never had good luck with Milwaukee holesaws in cromoly steel... or TT Supertherm !!! Pretty sure they'd work very well in wood... or even butter... soft butter...


    Had to wait 'til the next morning to go thru 3 hardware stores to finally end up on these. Exchange-a-blade M42 Cobalt hole saws, the black ones (not the white or yellow) Guy said the rep said they can't be beat. (Products | Exchange A-Blade) Plus when you buy one you can bring your old one and pay for that lower price ! Tree hugger in me says "awesome". Tooth design seem pretty intricate compared to the others I have (Sandvik, Bahco, Lennox, Megacut, Metabo, Starett dual pitch (dual pitch don't work worth a s..t). Got a good feeling, we'll see how this one holds up.


    Plus they seem to cut pretty smooth.


    Pivot tube in.


    GF and I also did most of the front triangle less the pivot section I just described above. Here's the cross tube notch I forgot to put on my last post !


    GF's front triangle ready for tacking / welding.

    I expect her frame to be a little lighter than mine since it's a little more than 2" shorter and has a 1-3/8" Supertherm DT (mine is a 1.5").

    And then my karma goes on... waiting on CNC parts. Dammnit.....

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    396
    Very cool how you've integrated the tube notching onto the jig!
    Bend, OR

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103

    Almost done

    Hey fellow builders,

    drove quite a ways in the night of tuesday to friday (134 miles back and 134 miles forth) to get those CNC machined parts so I can get at it for the week end and do most of the work left.

    The CNC process transformed those chunks :



    Into these :



    Then I Knocked the "ears" off to make it almost a finished part :



    Allowed me to finish what I had started on the rear end :



    Checked the crank clearance, plenty.



    View from the back of the rear end's jig.



    Off to the welding dept.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Feldybikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    690
    This is effing sweet!

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Eric Malcolm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    869
    Yes, he's rather special - very impressive. First bike build and he kicks butt.

    I really like whats going on here.

    Eric
    If I don't make an attempt, how will I know if it will work?

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    103

    0,75$ chainstay / seatstay bending device

    Eric, not my first frame... ! Wish it was ! First time using a jig as a notching device like I did though, eh.

    Forgot to talk about the chainstays and seat stays. Those were fun.

    I was lacking clearance on the chainstays for the tire on my rear end with the tubes I ordered... Since I didn't want to wait either for some other tubes to show up or a bending device, I started looking around for something to wrap the tubes around to bend them to "reroute" them to clear the tire. Didn't find anything except my tube bener... So I F'ed up one of my chainstay tubes trying to bend it in my bender that has a 1" round die 3"CLR in it... Well, it's all right, who doesn't try doesn't get ! I recuperated that tube to make my chainstay bridge anyways !

    So I had to find another solution so I looked at my chop saw and a piece of 2x4 that was laying in my garage. That seemed like a viable and cheap enough option !

    Then custom carved the 2x4 to match the shape of the chainstays and added a pinch block and clamped it on my student's des... Oh I mean my "recuperated worktable" like so :



    Then a guy just has to stick his tube in there:



    and pry on it using all its weight until the tube reaches the "bottom" of the die. The photo below shows how much spring back the tube has, this tube has been pry'ed to the bottom of the die. That's how much it springs back.



    Below we have the finished product against a straight edge. The initial shape was straight from the main bend to the dropout end. Sure adds some sexy curves to the bike... as well as allowed me to clear a 2.35 tire !!!



    Repeatability with this setup was excellent. Put them side by side and they all look the same. I did my seatstays using straight 5/8" cromo but the gf's rear end is gonnabe made out of 19mm tapered s-bend seatstays with those accentuated curves in it. Even if they were carved for a specific model of chainstay, I managed to bend the seatstays without any problems. I guess the very large radius allows that.

    Bottom line, this is a very very very cheap option to bend chainstays and seatstays. Hope this can be useful to some builders here !

    Cheers !

  50. #50
    WIGGLER
    Reputation: todwil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    896
    Nice bender!!!
    PAYASO 36er.....Live the Circus

    MR. 36er TROLL


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Building on Old Frames
    By ajd245246 in forum Bike and Frame discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-01-2013, 06:38 PM
  2. Steel vs aluminum frames....
    By comphynum in forum Beginner's Corner
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-04-2012, 04:14 PM
  3. Steel frames
    By Hikers Only in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-25-2012, 09:08 AM
  4. Steel frames?
    By deuxdiesel in forum Fat bikes
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-13-2011, 06:04 AM
  5. any one breaking steel frames
    By porter91 in forum Salsa
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-07-2011, 02:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •