Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    Randomhead
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,038

    Anvil "Type 2" Journeyman

    So now we learn a new Anvil jig is available, and we wouldn't hear anything more about it in the other thread. Anyone care to speculate about the differences?

    Checked the web site, still says the jig is $3500, looks like pre-production pics of the current version in the gallery.

  2. #2
    Shamisen Appreciator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,880
    $5400 according to an email I got from Don a while back. It's possible that the price has changed since then so don't hold Don responsible if I'm wrong. My understanding is that there's a couple of inches more standoff, a different dummy axle assembly, a different lower cone (a puck) and I'm sure there's more that I missed. If anyone wants the older style, let me know and I'll sell it to you so I can trade up.
    Last edited by smudge; 10-17-2009 at 07:38 PM.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  3. #3
    DWF
    DWF is offline
    Non Dual Bliss
    Reputation: DWF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,240
    You guys are just messing with me now, aren't you?

    No, the website is not up to date & generally sucks balls. We were supposed to have a new one up this spring but a bunch of other events, major & minor, got in the way. We have a new shell now and once we get some better pics, the new site will be active.

    For the record:

    1) The "Super Master": We stopped production of the Super Master. Had a number of reasons for doing this, but primarily cost on our end.

    First, nowadays, the Journeyman outsells the Super Master about 25 to 1. You could say I out competed myself.

    Second, if we don't build a batch of at least 20-25 Super Masters, it's a money losing deal for us. Up to a couple of years ago, it was worth it, but now everyone wants a Journeyman. So, building a big batch of Super Masters is a very expensive proposition and not worth the lost capital by having them sit on the shelf for a year or two or three.

    Third, we don't have a mill with big enough travels to machine the Super Master base plate economically. It takes a 60x30 (or a 40x30, a rare combination) travel mill to do them so we have to sub the bases out and the last place we had doing them has since gone under (and took our custom tooling that we made for building them with them, the bastards!). We will still build Super Masters to order, but will not keep them in stock, and not for $7,200.

    2. The "Type 2 Journeyman": The original style Journeyman went relatively unchanged since it's inception in '03 until this year. For the last batch we made some improvements & updates and dubbed them the "Type 2's". Those improvements include a burlier, more rigid, base plate, chainstay angle arm, & dummy axle tower assembly, and the new interchangable puck system for locating the lower head tubes -- a derivative of the system used on the Super Master. The puck system locates the bottom of the head tube by the head tube's ID and on a shelf. This gives a common head tube height regardless of head tube ID or OD. The old system used a cone on the lower head tube and this caused the builder to have to compensate for head tube ID if it deviated from the 1.125" standard. I never liked that as it wasn't necessarily intuitive and could lead to error if the frame builder forgot to compensate. The new Type 2 Journeyman is $3,900 including two dummy axles, the table pivot & rotating bench mount stand. Many, many, options are available for it.

    3. The "Super Journeyman": Pretty much as the name implies. It's a combo meal of the best parts of a Type 2 Journeyman & the Super Master. Or you could think of it as a Super Master built in the Journeyman model. It looks something like a Type 2 Journeyman with some key differences:

    a) Like the Super Master, the Super Journeyman is constructed of 1.25" material vs. 1" for the Journeyman.

    b) The Super Journeyman has 10" of standoff compared to the Type 2's 8".

    c) The SJ has an adjustable bottom bracket tower like the Super Master.

    d) The SJ has an expanding lower head tube mandrel similar to the Super Masters.

    e) Whereas the Journeyman uses a pivoting chainstay angle arm for establishing bottom bracket drop, on the Super Journeyman the chainstay arm will be fixed as on the Super Master. This allows chainstay length to be divorced from bottom bracket drop and is more accurate.

    f) The chainstay tower assembly is improved over both the Journeyman and the Super Master by being beefed up to 1.5" thick material with the dummy axle holder pinned in place and secured with three 5/16" stainless button head screws.

    The Super Journeyman is tentatively priced at $5,400 and comes with its own table pivot, trunnion, and bench mount stand. No pictures yet.

    Hopefully, Walt won't drag out the ban hammer for this.

    Here's some pics of my personal Type 2:

    The whole enchilada:


    The head tube puck:


    Double pinned, 3-bolt, triple meat with cheese, chainstay tower:
    Last edited by DWF; 10-18-2009 at 11:13 AM.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  4. #4
    pvd
    pvd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pvd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,803
    Are you going to do an update kit so that folks with the original journeyman can make some of the nice T2 & SJM upgrades on the cheap?

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: NorseRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    170
    Thanks, Don. No need for a reply to that email I sent you. And I'm following up on Pete's question: Esp. the adjustable BB would be good. I assume that there's nothing mystical about the puck-system, so that should be fairly easy to copy for those of us with a lathe if needed/wanted.

    Truls

  6. #6
    DWF
    DWF is offline
    Non Dual Bliss
    Reputation: DWF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by pvd
    Are you going to do an update kit so that folks with the original journeyman can make some of the nice T2 & SJM upgrades on the cheap?
    I could for the head tube puck system but it does require some basic machining. The head tube puck system can be retrofitted on any Jman lower head tube tower will the addition of two 10-32 clearance holes with counterbores and a spot face on the central 1/4-20 clearance hole. The rest of the updates are not retrofitable due to changed dimensions of the assemblies. To change the dummy axle tower, you'd need the tower, the base, and the new chainstay angle arm and then proof it to your specific fixture. Not that difficult but not cheap either.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  7. #7
    DWF
    DWF is offline
    Non Dual Bliss
    Reputation: DWF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by NorseRider
    Thanks, Don. No need for a reply to that email I sent you. And I'm following up on Pete's question: Esp. the adjustable BB would be good. I assume that there's nothing mystical about the puck-system, so that should be fairly easy to copy for those of us with a lathe if needed/wanted.

    Truls
    Yo Truls - I haven't received any email from you. Didn't we have this problem before, too? I checked my Spamarrest, my email spam folder, and my deletes and nothing. ???
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  8. #8
    DWF
    DWF is offline
    Non Dual Bliss
    Reputation: DWF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,240
    Yo Walt - If you think this thread is inappropriate or spamming, apologies in advance and no worries on my end; do what you need to do.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: NorseRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    170
    Strange stuff. I think I need to change my domain and mail host. They're sloppy, don't configure their servers according to common standards and are more expensive than most. Gotta find some time to migrate stuff this winter. Will give you a call if I have any Q's.

    Truls

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: poppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    994
    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    You guys are just messing with me now, aren't you?

    No, the website is not up to date & generally sucks balls. We were supposed to have a new one up this spring but a bunch of other events, major & minor, got in the way. We have a new shell now and once we get some better pics, the new site will be active.

    For the record:

    1) The "Super Master": We stopped production of the Super Master. Had a number of reasons for doing this, but primarily cost on our end.

    First, nowadays, the Journeyman outsells the Super Master about 25 to 1. You could say I out competed myself.

    Second, if we don't build a batch of at least 20-25 Super Masters, it's a money losing deal for us. Up to a couple of years ago, it was worth it, but now everyone wants a Journeyman. So, building a big batch of Super Masters is a very expensive proposition and not worth the lost capital by having them sit on the shelf for a year or two or three.

    Third, we don't have a mill with big enough travels to machine the Super Master base plate economically. It takes a 60x30 (or a 40x30, a rare combination) travel mill to do them so we have to sub the bases out and the last place we had doing them has since gone under (and took our custom tooling that we made for building them with them, the bastards!). We will still build Super Masters to order, but will not keep them in stock, and not for $7,200.

    2. The "Type 2 Journeyman": The original style Journeyman went relatively unchanged since it's inception in '03 until this year. For the last batch we made some improvements & updates and dubbed them the "Type 2's". Those improvements include a burlier, more rigid, base plate, chainstay angle arm, & dummy axle tower assembly, and the new interchangable puck system for locating the lower head tubes -- a derivative of the system used on the Super Master. The puck system locates the bottom of the head tube by the head tube's ID and on a shelf. This gives a common head tube height regardless of head tube ID or OD. The old system used a cone on the lower head tube and this caused the builder to have to compensate for head tube ID if it deviated from the 1.125" standard. I never liked that as it wasn't necessarily intuitive and could lead to error if the frame builder forgot to compensate. The new Type 2 Journeyman is $3,900 including two dummy axles, the table pivot & rotating bench mount stand. Many, many, options are available for it.

    3. The "Super Journeyman": Pretty much as the name implies. It's a combo meal of the best parts of a Type 2 Journeyman & the Super Master. Or you could think of it as a Super Master built in the Journeyman model. It looks something like a Type 2 Journeyman with some key differences:

    a) Like the Super Master, the Super Journeyman is constructed of 1.25" material vs. 1" for the Journeyman.

    b) The Super Journeyman has 10" of standoff compared to the Type 2's 8".

    c) The SJ has an adjustable bottom bracket tower like the Super Master.

    d) The SJ has an expanding lower head tube mandrel similar to the Super Masters.

    e) Whereas the Journeyman uses a pivoting chainstay angle arm for establishing bottom bracket drop, on the Super Journeyman the chainstay arm will be fixed as on the Super Master. This allows chainstay length to be divorced from bottom bracket drop and is more accurate.

    f) The chainstay tower assembly is improved over both the Journeyman and the Super Master by being beefed up to 1.5" thick material with the dummy axle holder pinned in place and secured with three 5/16" stainless button head screws.

    The Super Journeyman is tentatively priced at $5,400 and comes with its own table pivot, trunnion, and bench mount stand. No pictures yet.

    Hopefully, Walt won't drag out the ban hammer for this.

    Here's some pics of my personal Type 2:

    The whole enchilada:


    The head tube puck:


    Double pinned, 3-bolt, triple meat with cheese, chainstay tower:
    Great looking frame...

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    719
    Someday, I was going to buy the "super master" to replace my Master frame jig

    I always told people who asked. You can have my Master frame fixture for what I paid for it....about 5k. They would say, It's used! I would say....fine, go find yourself another one.

    Now it looks like I actually have an appreciating asset, pretty much unlike anything else in my shop which is worth beans as soon as I get it.

    You can now have my master frame fixture when you pry it from my cold dead hands......

    Dave

    Hey Don, are there still some coolio upgrades I can make to mine? Like something laying around the shop that would make it a semi-super master?
    All the best,

    Dave Bohm
    Bohemian Bicycles
    http://www.bohemianbicycles.com
    &
    http://www.framebuildingschool.com

  12. #12
    Randomhead
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    1,038
    Quote Originally Posted by DWF
    Yo Walt - If you think this thread is inappropriate or spamming, apologies in advance and no worries on my end; do what you need to do.
    You callin' me a spammer? Thanks for posting the details, I'm sure there were a lot of people that wanted to know what was up.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: jay_ntwr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    708
    Don, thanks for the post. I was curious about this too. BTW, my Feng Shui showed up this morning. Thanks a lot for getting it out so quickly. I was very surprised when USP showed up this morning.

  14. #14
    DWF
    DWF is offline
    Non Dual Bliss
    Reputation: DWF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by dbohemian
    Hey Don, are there still some coolio upgrades I can make to mine? Like something laying around the shop that would make it a semi-super master?
    Not really, Dave. I think yours is a pretty early version (D-frame, maybe?), the latest Super Masters were pretty far removed from it. You could do the puck system.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  15. #15
    DWF
    DWF is offline
    Non Dual Bliss
    Reputation: DWF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by unterhausen
    You callin' me a spammer? Thanks for posting the details, I'm sure there were a lot of people that wanted to know what was up.
    No worries.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  16. #16
    DWF
    DWF is offline
    Non Dual Bliss
    Reputation: DWF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by jay_ntwr
    Don, thanks for the post. I was curious about this too. BTW, my Feng Shui showed up this morning. Thanks a lot for getting it out so quickly. I was very surprised when USP showed up this morning.
    You're welcome.
    A man must have enemies and places he is not welcome. In the end we are not only defined by our friends but those against us.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    120
    I can't wait for my new Super Journeyman!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •