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  1. #1
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    1.5" external headset cup for "InSet" style HT

    This has been discussed here and there on this forum but I thought I'd make an official post for discourse if anyone wants to get involved. Perhaps this can serve as somewhat of a progress report.

    The point is to make a lower bearing cup that houses a 1.5" bearing and has a 44mm cup skirt that will fit into a head tube built to the Inset spec. This should allow us small builders to use tapered forks with a relatively low manufacturing cost output, using available tooling, materials and utilizing a (new) standard. (I'm going to go ahead and call it a standard now that King and Cane Creek are offering HSs using the 44mm I.D.)

    For ti builders, a HT can be made using 1.5" Sched 40 seamless pipe. It requires about half an hour to an hour on the lathe to turn and bore the tube to a workable size. Steel builders should be able to source the same sized chromoly pipe. I admit that I'm a bit ignorant of steel alloys so you'll have to figure out the right stuff to use on your own.

    One of the down sides with the seamless pipe is that the O.D. isn't quite big enough to fill out to the edge of the cup flange. The quickest way to deal with it is to skim off the edge of the flange on a lathe. I'm working with Mark @ Paragon to offer a weldable/brazable HT ring for those who don't want to skim the headset itself. I should be able to give him drawings next week.

    Through a fortunate occurrence, I was just contacted by a huge local machine shop for a welding job, so I think I just found someone to make the parts. I'm probably going to run about 30 cups. I still don't have the price worked out but I'll certainly add an update here when I do.

    I'm not really looking for input on the cups (though I won't ignore it) but if you guys want to have input on the size and shape of the HT rings, this seems like a great place to do it.

    Sean
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  2. #2
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    Keep us updated

    I would love to have a reliable supply of cups that would fit a 44mm head tube and house the 1.5" bearings. Please keep us updated on pricing and such. Have you talked to King at all about having them make a dedicated cup for this frankentaper idea?

    Quick question - As I understand it, sched 40 1.5" pipe has an OD of 48.3mm and an ID of 40.9mm (both approximations). So if the OD of our cup is 44mm-ish, that should mean ~2mm or so of wall thickness on both sides. I'm not sure I see a need for a reinforcing ring there. What am I missing?

    As long as the cost is <$50/cup (which shouldn't be hard) you can put me down for some.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    This has been discussed here and there on this forum but I thought I'd make an official post for discourse if anyone wants to get involved. Perhaps this can serve as somewhat of a progress report.

    The point is to make a lower bearing cup that houses a 1.5" bearing and has a 44mm cup skirt that will fit into a head tube built to the Inset spec. This should allow us small builders to use tapered forks with a relatively low manufacturing cost output, using available tooling, materials and utilizing a (new) standard. (I'm going to go ahead and call it a standard now that King and Cane Creek are offering HSs using the 44mm I.D.)

    For ti builders, a HT can be made using 1.5" Sched 40 seamless pipe. It requires about half an hour to an hour on the lathe to turn and bore the tube to a workable size. Steel builders should be able to source the same sized chromoly pipe. I admit that I'm a bit ignorant of steel alloys so you'll have to figure out the right stuff to use on your own.

    One of the down sides with the seamless pipe is that the O.D. isn't quite big enough to fill out to the edge of the cup flange. The quickest way to deal with it is to skim off the edge of the flange on a lathe. I'm working with Mark @ Paragon to offer a weldable/brazable HT ring for those who don't want to skim the headset itself. I should be able to give him drawings next week.

    Through a fortunate occurrence, I was just contacted by a huge local machine shop for a welding job, so I think I just found someone to make the parts. I'm probably going to run about 30 cups. I still don't have the price worked out but I'll certainly add an update here when I do.

    I'm not really looking for input on the cups (though I won't ignore it) but if you guys want to have input on the size and shape of the HT rings, this seems like a great place to do it.

    Sean
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  3. #3
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    Btw

    For those who might not know, there are a couple of sources (main one being King) for the appropriate reamers:
    ZeroStack / InSet reamer

    -Walt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    I would love to have a reliable supply of cups that would fit a 44mm head tube and house the 1.5" bearings. Please keep us updated on pricing and such. Have you talked to King at all about having them make a dedicated cup for this frankentaper idea?

    Quick question - As I understand it, sched 40 1.5" pipe has an OD of 48.3mm and an ID of 40.9mm (both approximations). So if the OD of our cup is 44mm-ish, that should mean ~2mm or so of wall thickness on both sides. I'm not sure I see a need for a reinforcing ring there. What am I missing?

    As long as the cost is <$50/cup (which shouldn't be hard) you can put me down for some.

    -Walt
    You're right, the HT doesn't need rings, but the OD of the Inset (which I would be using up top) flange is 50mm so it would overhang the HT. You either turn it down or weld on a ring to bring the OD of the HT close enough not to look ridiculous. Having a band of bare silver around an anodized headset might not sit well with some.

    oh, and I spoke with Jay at King about this when they introduced the Inset. He wasn't into it. I've spoken with some of the sales employees about it as well but it seems like it's falling on deaf ears. I think they want to see a demand for it before they would bother producing it.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  5. #5
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    Did a little bit of modeling yesterday to check things out. I'll do one final geometry check next week before I send the model off to the shop to have a run made.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.5&quot; external headset cup for &quot;InSet&quot; style HT-tapered-steerer-assembly.jpg  

    1.5&quot; external headset cup for &quot;InSet&quot; style HT-tapered-steerer-assembly2.jpg  

    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    Did a little bit of modeling yesterday to check things out. I'll do one final geometry check next week before I send the model off to the shop to have a run made.
    That would be an attractive HT. Good job, Sean.
    mtbtires.com
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  7. #7
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    Nice!

    What's the bearing spec for the cup? Are you planning to use whatever King is using?

    Looks very, very nice. I have a project in mind already.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    Did a little bit of modeling yesterday to check things out. I'll do one final geometry check next week before I send the model off to the shop to have a run made.
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  8. #8
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    I've registered the domain www.standard44.com which I'll flesh out with info once Sean and I have had a chance to nut out the details.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  9. #9
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    I'm sending some contact info for Cane Creek to you (Walt, Warwick) later today. If you guys really want this to happen, call them up or email them and tell them what you want.

    Also, I convinced a supplier to order some 120mm Reba Team Maxle Lite tapered steerer forks. Walt, Joe is going to call you today. They have a long lead time (90 days) but we apparently can't get them otherwise. Let's support the fact that this distro is making an effort and help them sell out of these forks. WW, I'll send you the info later today.

    If there are any lurkers reading this who are interested (I'm frankly surprised at the lack of interest so far) come out.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  10. #10
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    no names will be mentioned, but I spoke with production managers at a couple of mid-sized production builders and they seem to be interested. Maybe gaining some momentum.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  11. #11
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    all this makes such a lot of sense...go smudge! ace concept!

  12. #12
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    I'll start fleshing out a website this weekend smudge. Can you email me essentially everything you've got?

    I think it would be a good idea to also have a section with custom builders who support the concept so potential customers can see who has the tooling and support the early adopters.

    If you're down with the idea and want to get on board, drop me an email with all your contact details - infoATthylacinecyclesDOTcom.



    I should also mention that as custom builders we are well behind the 8-ball on this. With tapered headtubes and forks increasingly popular on production Aluminium all-mountain bikes, our lack of volume is closing off some markets that the production clowns are readily exploiting.

    Things like this are vital to keep custom frames at the forefront as well as expand our appeal beyond the 'tired lugged bike with racks' cliche, so if you build 29ers or burlier trailbikes, it would be well worth getting behind this.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  13. #13
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    I like the idea but i'm wondering what a 46mm+ headtube is going to look like on a steel frame, has anyone built anything using a 44mm headset (for non-taper) and have they got any pictures?

    I really like the idea and it's a brilliant solution, but i can't help thinking it's gonna look a bit fugly, i hope someone has some evidence to prove me wrong

    matt

  14. #14
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    Naw.

    I can't really imagine I'd use the tapered setup for anything with a <38mm downtube or <32mm toptube, so I don't think it'll look all that weird. I've done some 1.5" standard frames for Leftys and such and it's a tiny bit odd looking, but really not that bad. This will be ~48mm OD (and I'll probably turn down the center section a decent amount. So perhaps a little odd looking on some frames, but really worth it, IMO.

    We'll see, of course, based on who wants these things. I think for any 29er fork with 100mm or more of travel, it's a no-brainer. Then again, I've been saying that about through-axle forks for years and the Maxle/QR15 stuff is only finally catching on now.

    -Walt



    Quote Originally Posted by 18bikes
    I like the idea but i'm wondering what a 46mm+ headtube is going to look like on a steel frame, has anyone built anything using a 44mm headset (for non-taper) and have they got any pictures?

    I really like the idea and it's a brilliant solution, but i can't help thinking it's gonna look a bit fugly, i hope someone has some evidence to prove me wrong

    matt
    Waltworks Custom Bicycles
    Park City, UT USA
    www.waltworks.com
    waltworks.blogspot.com

  15. #15
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    Warwick we should chat later because I'm very interested in the reasoning behind the website. I think there are some very sensitive industry folks out there and any attempt to strongarm (real or perceived) them in the marketplace isn't going to be taken well.

    I'm not going to be the guy to list who I've been talking to because it's not my place to out them. I'll happily work behind the scenes on this issue (as I have been doing for the past few weeks) with as many mid size manufacturers as will listen to me with the hope that it will drum up enough market demand for the headset people to realize that it's viable in the market place. One of the shops has two CNC mills and two CNC lathes. They can move on it so fast that I wouldn't be surprised to see it at NAHBS.

    I strongly feel that the tapered steerer has merit and I don't want to see small and mid sized builders miss the boat on something that just makes sense. I truly believe that it's a better product and I want us to be able to build frames for it and sell it so I'm just doing what I can to put something into the supply chain to make it possible. I've been working toward this for over a year already, it's starting to get a little traction and I want to make sure it's pursued in the right way.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18bikes
    I like the idea but i'm wondering what a 46mm+ headtube is going to look like on a steel frame, has anyone built anything using a 44mm headset (for non-taper) and have they got any pictures?

    I really like the idea and it's a brilliant solution, but i can't help thinking it's gonna look a bit fugly, i hope someone has some evidence to prove me wrong

    matt
    Matt,

    I haven't finished this frame yet but you can get the gist here. Ti frame 46.25mm HT and 44.45mm DT.

    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  17. #17
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    As Walt said, 38mm and above downtubes are the go and should look just fine. Brant has some big bulge-butted tubes in the works which were made for something just like this.

    I'm half way through two all-mountain 29er frames which will be using both, so I'll post some pictures once we're further along.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  18. #18
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    What hole saw? 1.875"?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    What hole saw? 1.875"?
    1 13/16" I have some Morse hole saws in that size that cut the miter perfectly. They're wobbly enough that they cut just slightly larger than 46mm
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  20. #20
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    quick but veiled update...progress is being made. Another mid-manufacturer is extremely enthusiastic and a component manufacturer is looking at it right now. Not guaranteed but a proto could be ready by next week.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  21. #21
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    Good job!

    Now if we could get Rock Shox to release some 29er Rebas with tapered steerers to the masses we'd be headed in the right direction. Any word on when these will become available to folks other than the Big S?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMoth
    Now if we could get Rock Shox to release some 29er Rebas with tapered steerers to the masses we'd be headed in the right direction. Any word on when these will become available to folks other than the Big S?
    They're coming but in limited quantities. I've got some coming that should land by apr/may
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    I'm sending some contact info for Cane Creek to you (Walt, Warwick) later today. If you guys really want this to happen, call them up or email them and tell them what you want.

    Also, I convinced a supplier to order some 120mm Reba Team Maxle Lite tapered steerer forks. Walt, Joe is going to call you today. They have a long lead time (90 days) but we apparently can't get them otherwise. Let's support the fact that this distro is making an effort and help them sell out of these forks. WW, I'll send you the info later today.

    If there are any lurkers reading this who are interested (I'm frankly surprised at the lack of interest so far) come out.
    As a rider, not builder, if I were going for a new custom frame, this would for sure be piquing my interest.

    Hmmm. A 5" travel Ventana rear-ended Curtlo, built nice and low/slack/short/beefy would kick ass...
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    As a rider, not builder, if I were going for a new custom frame, this would for sure be piquing my interest.

    Hmmm. A 5" travel Ventana rear-ended Curtlo, built nice and low/slack/short/beefy would kick ass...
    Damn.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  25. #25
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    I've ordered some retrofit Fox tapered steerer uppers for customers that already have a 29er fork and don't want to lash on a whole new fork when they upgrade to a frame with a 44mm ID headtube.

    [Un]fortunately Fox will happily make some 100 or 120mm travel 29er forks with tapered steerers and QR15.....if you order MOQ's
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

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