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  1. #1
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    1.5" external headset cup for "InSet" style HT

    This has been discussed here and there on this forum but I thought I'd make an official post for discourse if anyone wants to get involved. Perhaps this can serve as somewhat of a progress report.

    The point is to make a lower bearing cup that houses a 1.5" bearing and has a 44mm cup skirt that will fit into a head tube built to the Inset spec. This should allow us small builders to use tapered forks with a relatively low manufacturing cost output, using available tooling, materials and utilizing a (new) standard. (I'm going to go ahead and call it a standard now that King and Cane Creek are offering HSs using the 44mm I.D.)

    For ti builders, a HT can be made using 1.5" Sched 40 seamless pipe. It requires about half an hour to an hour on the lathe to turn and bore the tube to a workable size. Steel builders should be able to source the same sized chromoly pipe. I admit that I'm a bit ignorant of steel alloys so you'll have to figure out the right stuff to use on your own.

    One of the down sides with the seamless pipe is that the O.D. isn't quite big enough to fill out to the edge of the cup flange. The quickest way to deal with it is to skim off the edge of the flange on a lathe. I'm working with Mark @ Paragon to offer a weldable/brazable HT ring for those who don't want to skim the headset itself. I should be able to give him drawings next week.

    Through a fortunate occurrence, I was just contacted by a huge local machine shop for a welding job, so I think I just found someone to make the parts. I'm probably going to run about 30 cups. I still don't have the price worked out but I'll certainly add an update here when I do.

    I'm not really looking for input on the cups (though I won't ignore it) but if you guys want to have input on the size and shape of the HT rings, this seems like a great place to do it.

    Sean
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  2. #2
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    Keep us updated

    I would love to have a reliable supply of cups that would fit a 44mm head tube and house the 1.5" bearings. Please keep us updated on pricing and such. Have you talked to King at all about having them make a dedicated cup for this frankentaper idea?

    Quick question - As I understand it, sched 40 1.5" pipe has an OD of 48.3mm and an ID of 40.9mm (both approximations). So if the OD of our cup is 44mm-ish, that should mean ~2mm or so of wall thickness on both sides. I'm not sure I see a need for a reinforcing ring there. What am I missing?

    As long as the cost is <$50/cup (which shouldn't be hard) you can put me down for some.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    This has been discussed here and there on this forum but I thought I'd make an official post for discourse if anyone wants to get involved. Perhaps this can serve as somewhat of a progress report.

    The point is to make a lower bearing cup that houses a 1.5" bearing and has a 44mm cup skirt that will fit into a head tube built to the Inset spec. This should allow us small builders to use tapered forks with a relatively low manufacturing cost output, using available tooling, materials and utilizing a (new) standard. (I'm going to go ahead and call it a standard now that King and Cane Creek are offering HSs using the 44mm I.D.)

    For ti builders, a HT can be made using 1.5" Sched 40 seamless pipe. It requires about half an hour to an hour on the lathe to turn and bore the tube to a workable size. Steel builders should be able to source the same sized chromoly pipe. I admit that I'm a bit ignorant of steel alloys so you'll have to figure out the right stuff to use on your own.

    One of the down sides with the seamless pipe is that the O.D. isn't quite big enough to fill out to the edge of the cup flange. The quickest way to deal with it is to skim off the edge of the flange on a lathe. I'm working with Mark @ Paragon to offer a weldable/brazable HT ring for those who don't want to skim the headset itself. I should be able to give him drawings next week.

    Through a fortunate occurrence, I was just contacted by a huge local machine shop for a welding job, so I think I just found someone to make the parts. I'm probably going to run about 30 cups. I still don't have the price worked out but I'll certainly add an update here when I do.

    I'm not really looking for input on the cups (though I won't ignore it) but if you guys want to have input on the size and shape of the HT rings, this seems like a great place to do it.

    Sean

  3. #3
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    Btw

    For those who might not know, there are a couple of sources (main one being King) for the appropriate reamers:
    ZeroStack / InSet reamer

    -Walt

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    I would love to have a reliable supply of cups that would fit a 44mm head tube and house the 1.5" bearings. Please keep us updated on pricing and such. Have you talked to King at all about having them make a dedicated cup for this frankentaper idea?

    Quick question - As I understand it, sched 40 1.5" pipe has an OD of 48.3mm and an ID of 40.9mm (both approximations). So if the OD of our cup is 44mm-ish, that should mean ~2mm or so of wall thickness on both sides. I'm not sure I see a need for a reinforcing ring there. What am I missing?

    As long as the cost is <$50/cup (which shouldn't be hard) you can put me down for some.

    -Walt
    You're right, the HT doesn't need rings, but the OD of the Inset (which I would be using up top) flange is 50mm so it would overhang the HT. You either turn it down or weld on a ring to bring the OD of the HT close enough not to look ridiculous. Having a band of bare silver around an anodized headset might not sit well with some.

    oh, and I spoke with Jay at King about this when they introduced the Inset. He wasn't into it. I've spoken with some of the sales employees about it as well but it seems like it's falling on deaf ears. I think they want to see a demand for it before they would bother producing it.
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  5. #5
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    Did a little bit of modeling yesterday to check things out. I'll do one final geometry check next week before I send the model off to the shop to have a run made.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.5&quot; external headset cup for &quot;InSet&quot; style HT-tapered-steerer-assembly.jpg  

    1.5&quot; external headset cup for &quot;InSet&quot; style HT-tapered-steerer-assembly2.jpg  

    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    Did a little bit of modeling yesterday to check things out. I'll do one final geometry check next week before I send the model off to the shop to have a run made.
    That would be an attractive HT. Good job, Sean.
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  7. #7
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    Nice!

    What's the bearing spec for the cup? Are you planning to use whatever King is using?

    Looks very, very nice. I have a project in mind already.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    Did a little bit of modeling yesterday to check things out. I'll do one final geometry check next week before I send the model off to the shop to have a run made.

  8. #8
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    I've registered the domain www.standard44.com which I'll flesh out with info once Sean and I have had a chance to nut out the details.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  9. #9
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    I'm sending some contact info for Cane Creek to you (Walt, Warwick) later today. If you guys really want this to happen, call them up or email them and tell them what you want.

    Also, I convinced a supplier to order some 120mm Reba Team Maxle Lite tapered steerer forks. Walt, Joe is going to call you today. They have a long lead time (90 days) but we apparently can't get them otherwise. Let's support the fact that this distro is making an effort and help them sell out of these forks. WW, I'll send you the info later today.

    If there are any lurkers reading this who are interested (I'm frankly surprised at the lack of interest so far) come out.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  10. #10
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    no names will be mentioned, but I spoke with production managers at a couple of mid-sized production builders and they seem to be interested. Maybe gaining some momentum.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  11. #11
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    all this makes such a lot of sense...go smudge! ace concept!

  12. #12
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    I'll start fleshing out a website this weekend smudge. Can you email me essentially everything you've got?

    I think it would be a good idea to also have a section with custom builders who support the concept so potential customers can see who has the tooling and support the early adopters.

    If you're down with the idea and want to get on board, drop me an email with all your contact details - infoATthylacinecyclesDOTcom.



    I should also mention that as custom builders we are well behind the 8-ball on this. With tapered headtubes and forks increasingly popular on production Aluminium all-mountain bikes, our lack of volume is closing off some markets that the production clowns are readily exploiting.

    Things like this are vital to keep custom frames at the forefront as well as expand our appeal beyond the 'tired lugged bike with racks' cliche, so if you build 29ers or burlier trailbikes, it would be well worth getting behind this.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  13. #13
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    I like the idea but i'm wondering what a 46mm+ headtube is going to look like on a steel frame, has anyone built anything using a 44mm headset (for non-taper) and have they got any pictures?

    I really like the idea and it's a brilliant solution, but i can't help thinking it's gonna look a bit fugly, i hope someone has some evidence to prove me wrong

    matt

  14. #14
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    Naw.

    I can't really imagine I'd use the tapered setup for anything with a <38mm downtube or <32mm toptube, so I don't think it'll look all that weird. I've done some 1.5" standard frames for Leftys and such and it's a tiny bit odd looking, but really not that bad. This will be ~48mm OD (and I'll probably turn down the center section a decent amount. So perhaps a little odd looking on some frames, but really worth it, IMO.

    We'll see, of course, based on who wants these things. I think for any 29er fork with 100mm or more of travel, it's a no-brainer. Then again, I've been saying that about through-axle forks for years and the Maxle/QR15 stuff is only finally catching on now.

    -Walt



    Quote Originally Posted by 18bikes
    I like the idea but i'm wondering what a 46mm+ headtube is going to look like on a steel frame, has anyone built anything using a 44mm headset (for non-taper) and have they got any pictures?

    I really like the idea and it's a brilliant solution, but i can't help thinking it's gonna look a bit fugly, i hope someone has some evidence to prove me wrong

    matt

  15. #15
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    Warwick we should chat later because I'm very interested in the reasoning behind the website. I think there are some very sensitive industry folks out there and any attempt to strongarm (real or perceived) them in the marketplace isn't going to be taken well.

    I'm not going to be the guy to list who I've been talking to because it's not my place to out them. I'll happily work behind the scenes on this issue (as I have been doing for the past few weeks) with as many mid size manufacturers as will listen to me with the hope that it will drum up enough market demand for the headset people to realize that it's viable in the market place. One of the shops has two CNC mills and two CNC lathes. They can move on it so fast that I wouldn't be surprised to see it at NAHBS.

    I strongly feel that the tapered steerer has merit and I don't want to see small and mid sized builders miss the boat on something that just makes sense. I truly believe that it's a better product and I want us to be able to build frames for it and sell it so I'm just doing what I can to put something into the supply chain to make it possible. I've been working toward this for over a year already, it's starting to get a little traction and I want to make sure it's pursued in the right way.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18bikes
    I like the idea but i'm wondering what a 46mm+ headtube is going to look like on a steel frame, has anyone built anything using a 44mm headset (for non-taper) and have they got any pictures?

    I really like the idea and it's a brilliant solution, but i can't help thinking it's gonna look a bit fugly, i hope someone has some evidence to prove me wrong

    matt
    Matt,

    I haven't finished this frame yet but you can get the gist here. Ti frame 46.25mm HT and 44.45mm DT.

    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  17. #17
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    As Walt said, 38mm and above downtubes are the go and should look just fine. Brant has some big bulge-butted tubes in the works which were made for something just like this.

    I'm half way through two all-mountain 29er frames which will be using both, so I'll post some pictures once we're further along.
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  18. #18
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    What hole saw? 1.875"?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.F.L.
    What hole saw? 1.875"?
    1 13/16" I have some Morse hole saws in that size that cut the miter perfectly. They're wobbly enough that they cut just slightly larger than 46mm
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  20. #20
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    quick but veiled update...progress is being made. Another mid-manufacturer is extremely enthusiastic and a component manufacturer is looking at it right now. Not guaranteed but a proto could be ready by next week.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  21. #21
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    Good job!

    Now if we could get Rock Shox to release some 29er Rebas with tapered steerers to the masses we'd be headed in the right direction. Any word on when these will become available to folks other than the Big S?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackMoth
    Now if we could get Rock Shox to release some 29er Rebas with tapered steerers to the masses we'd be headed in the right direction. Any word on when these will become available to folks other than the Big S?
    They're coming but in limited quantities. I've got some coming that should land by apr/may
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    I'm sending some contact info for Cane Creek to you (Walt, Warwick) later today. If you guys really want this to happen, call them up or email them and tell them what you want.

    Also, I convinced a supplier to order some 120mm Reba Team Maxle Lite tapered steerer forks. Walt, Joe is going to call you today. They have a long lead time (90 days) but we apparently can't get them otherwise. Let's support the fact that this distro is making an effort and help them sell out of these forks. WW, I'll send you the info later today.

    If there are any lurkers reading this who are interested (I'm frankly surprised at the lack of interest so far) come out.
    As a rider, not builder, if I were going for a new custom frame, this would for sure be piquing my interest.

    Hmmm. A 5" travel Ventana rear-ended Curtlo, built nice and low/slack/short/beefy would kick ass...
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    As a rider, not builder, if I were going for a new custom frame, this would for sure be piquing my interest.

    Hmmm. A 5" travel Ventana rear-ended Curtlo, built nice and low/slack/short/beefy would kick ass...
    Damn.
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  25. #25
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    I've ordered some retrofit Fox tapered steerer uppers for customers that already have a 29er fork and don't want to lash on a whole new fork when they upgrade to a frame with a 44mm ID headtube.

    [Un]fortunately Fox will happily make some 100 or 120mm travel 29er forks with tapered steerers and QR15.....if you order MOQ's
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  26. #26
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    I think I've done just about all I can do to push this. I'll be getting a proto sample shortly and from there it's up to the component manufacturer to decide whether or not they want this in their line up. In the next week or so I'll be back in contact with the production builders I pulled into this and they can start making their cases to the headset maker and the fork companies. Ultimately, that's what's going to create the supply stream from which we (the individual builders) will benefit.
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  27. #27
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    Sean and I have created www.standard44.com to act as a portal to keep everyone informed as to which custom builders are down with the concept, and which suppliers are onboard.

    If you want to be kept in the loop, you can register via email there, or I'm sure Sean will post updates and happenings as they, well, happen.
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  28. #28
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    You spelt "obsolescence" wrong. ;-)

  29. #29
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    "Inherent," too.

  30. #30
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    Damn, that's the old image. Ooops. Changes as soon as my web guy wakes up. Thanks for the head's up.
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  31. #31
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    this is a great idea if you can make it happen.

    I actually came up with a very similiar idea about 3 years ago when tapered road fork steerers started showing up when the new CE standards were introduced. I was working at a company that made road forks at the time and saw this as a good solution for small builders to use a tapered fork without having to go source new headtubes.

    The few people I talked to about it on the headset side at the time had very similar reactions, let's see the interest first from the builders.

    I didn't work there much longer after that so it probably died there.

    Good luck as I think this could work extremely well for small builders.

  32. #32
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    whats the latest on this?

    i want progress!!!!

    sorry
    matt

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 18bikes
    whats the latest on this?

    i want progress!!!!

    sorry
    matt
    still waiting for the prototype. I've got a machine shop on standby if something goes sideways and it doesn't work out.

    Sean
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  34. #34
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    Prototype is done. It's not anodized but the shape is identifiable enough that it might give away the manufacturer so no pics. Once I get it on a frame and it's less obvious, I'll share some pics.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
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  35. #35
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    Sean,

    I turned and bored down a huge chunk of Ti I picked up from United Titanium last week after we talked about a one piece head tube for the tapered inset design.

    Though it offers a seamless head tube that works nicely, it was a royal pain in the tushy, and if I had to pay for the Ti to do this for each build, would increase the cost of the frame by 200 bucks just for the material.

    Given the time sink and cost a one piece design requires, I definitely feel you are on track with the cup for the 44 id.

    Sign me up

    cheers,

    rody
    (old enough to know better, but still young enough to be foolish to try)
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rody
    Sean,

    I turned and bored down a huge chunk of Ti I picked up from United Titanium last week after we talked about a one piece head tube for the tapered inset design.

    Though it offers a seamless head tube that works nicely, it was a royal pain in the tushy, and if I had to pay for the Ti to do this for each build, would increase the cost of the frame by 200 bucks just for the material.

    Given the time sink and cost a one piece design requires, I definitely feel you are on track with the cup for the 44 id.

    Sign me up

    cheers,

    rody
    (old enough to know better, but still young enough to be foolish to try)
    thanks!

    I can't wait to get it here.

    edit: P.S. rody, I need to see this thing. Pics!

    P.P.S. Apparently Deda is making tapered ti HT's. I'll try to remember to email you the drawing.
    Last edited by smudge; 02-05-2010 at 09:19 PM.
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  37. #37
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    Any updates smudge? Thanks in advance!

  38. #38
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    Cane Creek Facebook Site

    Cane Creek Cycling Components We told you we'd be releasing new stuff to our Facebook fans first... How about a headset bottom that allows you to run a tapered steerer-tube fork through virtually any bicycle frame using a typical 1-1/8" ZeroStack headset...

    Fletcher, North Carolina – March 4, 2010 – Citing the need for a headset solution that would... facilitate the use of a tapered steerer fork (1.5” to 1-1/8”) in a standard ZeroStack™ head-tube, Sean Chaney, owner of Vertigo Cycles, a custom frame builder from Portland, approached Cane Creek with a brilliant, simple headset idea.

    “After hearing from David Turner and then speaking with Sean, I was so excited by the problem-solving nature of his headset solution and it’s far reaching implications for both new and old bicycles using the ZeroStack™ standard that I produced a technical drawing the same day,” says Josh Coaplen, Cane Creek Director of Research & Development. “The headset bottom is simply a 1.5” traditional with a 44mm diameter insertion sleeve that fits a frame using the ZeroStack™ standard.”

    All-New, Problem-Solving - The XX 44mm Traditional

    Coming mid-Summer 2010.
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  39. #39
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    I just got an email about this today- nice job Sean!

  40. #40
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    F'ing rad!

    Nice work, Sean!

    For what it's worth, significant progress is being made on the (steel) head tube front as well. I would be pretty surprised if we didn't have a plug/play head tube within a month or two.

    -Walt

  41. #41
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    I've been wanting to show this for a little while



    the press release
    Last edited by smudge; 03-04-2010 at 01:17 PM.
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  42. #42
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    100% awesome...good work sean! looks tasty...

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    I've been wanting to show this for a little while



    the press release
    Sweet. Is this going to be a one-length-fit-all head tube or will different lengths be available?

    How short can a head tube be for a tapered steer fork?
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  44. #44
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    Maybe Walt can answer the steel HT question. I've got to work out my own thing for ti.

    IIRC the taper on a Fox fork is 95mm from the top of the taper to the crown race seat. Lower stack of this HS is 11.7mm, upper is 8.5 I think. So about 75mm min length.
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  45. #45
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    Steel head tubes

    Shiggy -

    The exact head tube configuration isn't finalized, but it will *likely* be:
    -44mm ID (actually, it'll probably be a tiny bit undersized, to allow some distortion and reaming back to round), ~46.5mm OD. This will mean that you'll have to braze on rings to match the OD of the cups to make a smooth headtube/headset transition. You can of course leave them off as well if you don't care.
    -Probably heat treated 4130.

    It's also possible we'll do something with a ~48mm OD and it will need some external lathe work to turn down the center section (but less/no need for rings). I'm leaning away from that option right now, but I am not the only builder/company involved, so things could certainly change.

    I think you can safely count on the head tube stock being available by the time the headset is out, and it will be available to anyone who wants to buy it, not just the folks involved in the current project.

    -Walt

    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    Maybe Walt can answer the steel HT question. I've got to work out my own thing for ti.

    IIRC the taper on a Fox fork is 95mm from the top of the taper to the crown race seat. Lower stack of this HS is 11.7mm, upper is 8.5 I think. So about 75mm min length.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by smudge
    For ti builders, a HT can be made using 1.5" Sched 40 seamless pipe. It requires about half an hour to an hour on the lathe to turn and bore the tube to a workable size.
    Sean/smudge -

    This is awesome. Do you have a good source for small quantity 1.5" Sch 40 Ti pipe (or would you sell me some)?

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustola
    Sean/smudge -

    This is awesome. Do you have a good source for small quantity 1.5" Sch 40 Ti pipe (or would you sell me some)?
    at the moment unfortunately not. My source dried up. I personally have 5ft of 1.5" sch 40 pipe and another 5 ft of another material that will work. I need to look carefully at my build schedule for the next six months...I might be able to sell you some. PM me with your email address.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt
    Shiggy -

    The exact head tube configuration isn't finalized, but it will *likely* be:
    -44mm ID (actually, it'll probably be a tiny bit undersized, to allow some distortion and reaming back to round), ~46.5mm OD. This will mean that you'll have to braze on rings to match the OD of the cups to make a smooth headtube/headset transition. You can of course leave them off as well if you don't care.
    -Probably heat treated 4130.

    It's also possible we'll do something with a ~48mm OD and it will need some external lathe work to turn down the center section (but less/no need for rings).
    I'm leaning away from that option right now, but I am not the only builder/company involved, so things could certainly change.

    I think you can safely count on the head tube stock being available by the time the headset is out, and it will be available to anyone who wants to buy it, not just the folks involved in the current project.

    -Walt
    My vote would be for the option in bold. I know it limits to those with lathes but you know "A lathe is a beautiful thing" and it means you can make XC-able frames and AM-able frames depending on how aggressive you are with your turning.

    50mm OD would suit best, simply because that's what most of the current InSet/Fustrum top assemblies are, and "I'm guessing" what the Standard44 headsets will be.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  49. #49
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    I know I'm not a steel guy but I'm going to throw in my $0.02

    You guys would be best off just getting the tube pulled at whatever O.D. the center portion is going to be (I imagine somewhere in the 46-46.5mm range) and designing some rings for Paragon to manufacture to silver braze on. Why do all the work to machine a tube down from 50mm to 46mm if you don't have to? Plus, that's a lot of swarf to manage in a small shop.

    BTW - I've dropped the responsibility of drawing out the rings for Mark as I have material and the setups to make my own for the pipe I currently have. Not only that, I wouldn't want him to make a bunch of steel rings before knowing what material you guys are going to have.
    Sean Chaney :: Owner/Builder :: Vertigo Cycles LLC
    flickr :: www.vertigocycles.com

  50. #50
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    See Sean, this is the problem with us not all getting behind a unified front via something like standard44.com

    Everyone is running off doing their own thing, nobody knows who's doing what, and suppliers aren't going to have a good idea of the potential market because - for example - Walt could be talking to TT for example about some head tubes, and only order enough for himself because he has no idea who needs what, or who's interested in how much.

    I'm putting my hand up to be a facilitator and offer up a repository for all the information needed via standard44.com if people think having a unified front is a good thing.

    My reasoning is simple -

    • We can create a larger impact if we're all working together for the good of independent framebuilding.
    • Suppliers can get a better feel for the size of the market.
    • Sean is a good guy and deserves our unified support.
    • This is the first of the 'new' standards that is actually 'pro' custom framebuilding.

    All the other BB and HT standards being pushed are being done by the majors, and it looks like we're no longer the 'innovators'. I personally don't want customer framebuilding to be relegated in peoples' minds as the "overblown fixies and 10 grand retro lugged touring bike' industry" - it's important now more than ever be get behind something that's 'pro us'.
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

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