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  1. #1
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    FOES mono 2.1 lighter in 2010

    Few pics from Pinkbike. These pictures from Eurobike in Germany first days of Sept.
    2 pounds less in 2010.


    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3958237/

    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3958244/

    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3958238/

    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/3958241/
    Last edited by missfoesquebec; 09-22-2009 at 12:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    A week goes by and no one has any comments on the new Mono? MissFoes, are you tempted to pick up a new frame next year?

    I do know I've been sitting on the fence between something a little more park focused like a Santa Cruz Driver8 or just going all out full DH, and the only bike on that shortlist is the Mono. I was leaning Driver8, but now the idea of a slightly lighter Mono using more conventional parts (hub, chain guide) makes the decision harder!

    Chris.

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    Few things to think about:

    Do you want to keep the same bike for years?
    If yes. Foes Mono is the answer. At least 5 years avant-garde (I mean technological advantage over the others) and very well built. The frame and shock are built like Hulk! It helps self-confidence!

    Do you need best bike for technical trail and very easy to pedal?
    Curnut shock are very buseful on flat not bottoming out. Also the best on near death trail. You will survive these with Foes. The air 2.1 shock is awesome. I follow guys 20 younger because I have the Foes-Curnut advantage. They don't understand why. I know. Keep the secret!

    Do you want a very light bike and ready to buy a new one each year?
    Foes Mono might be not the good choice.

    The others are sleeping. Maybe they just wake up with Interbike Las Vegas going on.
    Cheers.
    Mylene

  4. #4
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    A Mono certainly wouldn't be my first Foes, and I am a very firm believer in the latest Curnutt Air shocks. Neither the Driver8 or the Mono are exactly light, but I do expect 4 to 5 years out of the bike. I'm not interested in the disposable DH (READ: Trek Session 88, FRO, etc).

    It's the idea to blitz the old school double black trails off the top of Garbonzo that keeps me coming back to the Mono. I'll be interested to see if anyone gets their hands on a new one and reports in on it.

    Chris.

  5. #5
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    Also gettin' flat tire everydays is not cool.
    Longer shock like Curnut 2.1 help very much to avoid that.
    How much rider I saw in Deux-Alpes few weeks ago the bike upside down to repair flat tire.
    Quiet the same in 2007 at World Cup in Mont-Sainte-Anne near Quebec City.
    I got top 20 mostly because others were on flat tires on finals. The Curnut advantage no question. Doing that at 50 years old is still a world record (kind of).

  6. #6
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    Some vids from Interbike 2009. Sub 40 pound DHS with Foes' own fork. I think the decision just got a whole lot easier.

    http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/featu...,520/sspomer,2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXICFV-Y0zU

  7. #7
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    Mono 2:1

    Looking for a new bike! The Mono has my interest! Can you tell me the diff in rides between the air and coil curnutt? Is there a bike out there that you can compare the ride to? Is the travel plush, or just lots of it? Does the shock ramp up at the end of its travel? How does it ride over the roots and big drops?
    Thanks for your info

  8. #8
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    Most shocks are 1 inche of travel equal 3 inches of suspension.
    3 inches of travel= 9 inches.

    Curnut Porgressive: Coil TI or air? No problem because of a longer travel of the shocks.
    Standard coil: a little bit stiffer. The metal is not reacting like Ti.
    Titanium: better and lighter. Some thing it's too slow to react sticking on the ground. Anyway more aline that standard coil.
    Air: very alive! You can jump almost everythings. Better and sometime cheaper than 2 titanium coils.
    Only BOS (France) shock might come close of Curnut. Just close not equal...

  9. #9
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    thanks

    Thanks for the info, I think I was talking to you before about the mono! Is there a bike out there that you could compare the ride of the Mono 2:1 to? Is it a plush ride?
    Thanks again!!

  10. #10
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    I don't know the other bikes.
    You can't bottom up with these shocks.
    Each year others & friends change their bikes. I can't understand that. I don't need to do it! The 2010 is looking good. Can I resist???
    I own 2 mono 2.1 2006 and one mono DHS 2002.
    Never broken.
    Always nice on tough trails.
    Stable at speed.
    Sharp edges on corner.
    The missing point for Foes is no pro team on World Cup and US Norba since 2004.
    Some marketing weakness for sure.
    But the technical R&D is a way up on XXI.

    The 2010 FXR look nice too for a mix of adventure (up and down of the mountains)...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by missfoesquebec
    Only BOS (France) shock might come close of Curnut. Just close not equal...
    I gotta disagree, the curnut technology makes it hard to have a shock that reacts as well as the BOS, or pretty much any shim-stack based shock like Fox, Elka, Avalanche, and so on. Curnut CV/T technology means a certain amount of force is required to initiate movement, which means more of the bump is transfered to you, it also makes it hard to react at high speed. With such a low leverage rate, these traits are also amplified. Roots and rocks at speed was exactly the situation where my Curnut was poor. I had it checked out twice and rebuilt once. Going through said rocks/roots it was like a jackhammer, when I switched the shock for a DHX 5.0, it was much better. When I finally got a linkage-controlled bike with a decent shock it was much better still (I had linkage bikes before, but I wanted to try out the Foes and see how good it would perform, I also has the misconception that the "huge" curnut shock must be good). While they tried to develop this technology for Mx, pretty much no one will touch it. It does make poor suspension designs pedal "better", and it does allow for progressive damping to resist bottoming on falling-rate bikes, but it also can't react as a more speed-sensitive damper can. Curnut coil shocks are HUGE, but that big size doesn't translate to better features or travel, as it does with my Avalanche shocks. On low-speed stuff the curnut does just fine, bottom-resistance (drops are low shaft-speed events) and chassi stability, but you can say the same of any modern shock with a decent low-speed circut, like Cane Creek's DB, Fox RC4, Avalanche Woodie/Chubby/DHS, Elka Stage 5, etc. The air curnut is supposed to be a decent improvement, although is still going to be bound to some of these limitations. Another problem with the coil curnut is you need something like 25 or 15lb spring incriments to tune it correctly to the rider due to the low leverage, and spring manufacturing tolerance simple isn't that precise for mtb springs. Low leverage doesn't have many benefits, obviously "too high" is also bad, as it puts excessive pressure on the components.

    If Foes bikes retained their amazing lateral rigidity and used a modern linkage-system with a modern shock, they'd rule the world. They don't need any fancy virtual-pivot system if they're running one ring up front like a DH/FR bike. I think Foes has invested so much into the curnut stuff though that they really can't afford to lose all that time/money. Either in reality or perception.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  12. #12
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    I never saw something like that on Foes threads all around the planet. Curnut bad on everything. Very funny!

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    I've seen quite a few posts like this. I had a curnutt coil-over on my last DHS and have to say it's the best shock I've ever used. They behave completely differently to just about any other shock out there.

    The curnutt shocks tend to polarise people - if you're used to a traditional shim-stack damper which 'smooths out' everything then the curnutt will probably feel weird/wrong. They don't tend to respond well to smaller, low-speed bumps (they will always fail the 'carpark squish test'). However, when the shock is set up properly, the harder you push it the better it feels. It's almost as if there's a critcal level of force required for them to wake up and get interested.

    The harshness/feedback that a lot of people complain about I have actually found to be really useful. The shock puts through just enough feedback for you to feel what the bike is doing but still keeps you pinned.

    I can't compare the curnutt to a BOS or Avalanche, but I prefer the curnutt to every shim-based damper I've ever used.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by missfoesquebec
    I never saw something like that on Foes threads all around the planet. Curnut bad on everything. Very funny!
    You can see it just one post above. Nearly everyone with a curnut "rationalizes" the harsh/choppy action. Wouldn't it be great to not have that and all the other benefits? It's possible.


    Plus, I didn't say it was bad on everything. It pedaled fine in terms of bob resistance, although didn't have as much traction uphill as my linkage bikes. It took "low speed" events just fine, which means jumps, drops, and so on. On the other hand, it's usually not that hard to have decent low-speed performance, but there was more chassi stability in terms of not wallowing and blowing through the travel. To be fair though, my Avalanche shocks have as good or better low-speed traits while simply blowing away the curnut in every other situation. Except for Avalanche, who did this a few years ago, we have only recently seen shocks with decent high and low speed compression circuts, ones that you can adjust without turning the other into crap. The RC4, Push MX, Cane Creek DB and Elka to again name a few. Previous to this, we thought we had to accept the limitations caused by SPV stuff like Progressive and Curnut. When the DHX came out it did a good job of retaining some of the SPV characteristics without as much harsh travel, but the low-speed circuts were still pretty useless.
    Last edited by Jayem; 01-17-2010 at 10:06 PM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You can see it just one post above. Nearly everyone with a curnut "rationalizes" the harsh/choppy action. Wouldn't it be great to not have that and all the other benefits? It's possible.
    What other stable platform bikes are you referring to?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You can see it just one post above. Nearly everyone with a curnut "rationalizes" the harsh/choppy action. Wouldn't it be great to not have that and all the other benefits? It's possible.
    Horses for courses ...

    personally, I'm looking forward to taking delivery of my curnutt air equipped 2010 mono, hopefully some time in the next couple of weeks.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypoxic
    Horses for courses ...

    personally, I'm looking forward to taking delivery of my curnutt air equipped 2010 mono, hopefully some time in the next couple of weeks.
    Frame only or did you also take one of the new Foes build kits?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrissa
    Frame only or did you also take one of the new Foes build kits?
    Frame only. Already have an XTD fork. Sorted out my own build kit for it. It's gonna be sick!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrissa
    What other stable platform bikes are you referring to?
    Jeeze, anything with a 5th element, older swinger, or curnut for the most part. I also had a 5th element on a bike, in addition, 4 DHXs, the DHX also has the same technology, called the "boost valve", but they use it for the purpose in the description, as a "boost" to add some position-sensitive damping, while retaining speed-sensitive damping at the main piston. Even so, when you crank up the pressure it gets pretty harsh due to all the resistance to the damping and excessively progressive damping. The 5th element and curnut could be said to "over-rely" on this technology, but it still restricts the flow on even the DHX in some situations. The low-speed adjustments on the DHX were pretty poor as well, but that has been addressed with stuff like the RC4. Let me tell you that real low and high speed circuts make a huge difference.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "stable platform bikes", there's no such thing. There are only bikes that have stable-platform shocks on them, usually refered to as SPV or CV/T on the shock. These tend to be falling-rate single-pivot designs, as the increasing resistance doesn't usually work all that well on linkage bikes, plus the linkage bikes can just use regular shocks. If these bikes didn't have SPV shocks on them (I've tried this too) you'd have to use a MUCH higher spring rate than normal, have very harsh initial travel, or use a lower spring rate and deal with excessive bottoming. This is in contrast to a linkage bike that can use a lower spring rate, as well as shocks from many different manufacturers.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I'm not sure what you mean by "stable platform bikes", there's no such thing.
    Jayem,

    Ok, maybe my question wasn't clear. You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Nearly everyone with a curnut "rationalizes" the harsh/choppy action. Wouldn't it be great to not have that and all the other benefits? It's possible.
    How is it possible? What stable platform system or anti-pedal-bob design succeeds where Foes falls down?

    Chris.

  21. #21
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    If you have a single-ring bike, like a DH bike or FR bike, you don't need an "anti-bob" platform. You can place the pivot at a spot where it will intersect the chainline correctly to provide good pedaling traits. It becomes more problamatic when you have two or three rings and need to try and tune the proper behavior into the bike with those varying chainlines. Most of those bikes make pretty big compramises. The "virtual" pivot type bikes (not VPP specifically, but things like horst-links, dw link, vpp, whatever niner's system is called, etc) allow for this without having to make big sacrifices. Something like a high-pivot heckler will stiffen a lot under pedaling forces to help prevent bob, which will cause it to be pretty harsh in bumps while pedaling, yet if you take a much lower bike and give it the compression damping it needs to resist chassi movement and pedal decently(like a Foes) it ends up also being somewhat harsh, but for other reasons. There is kind of a "middle ground", where you don't have to have excesive compression damping yet the bike pedals decently, but this is still a compramise, maybe a little "harsher" still or maybe it bobs a little.

    There's also a difference between some "bob" and actually robbing energy. You can have some chassi movement without much energy loss, but for some people the visual aspect of this is too much to overcome. On the other hand, it should be a relationship of how much energy goes into pedaling and how much of that moves the bike forward. One aspect that I'm noticing more is how certain bikes (some of mine as well) "squat" when you try to go up a steep hill. This robs a lot of energy as the rear compresses quite a bit, yet on level ground the bike accelerates with little bob or loss of energy.

    While I'm touching on different subjects and bikes, my main point is that you can "have your cake and eat it too" to a much higher extent than a few years ago. Most foes have a pretty low pivot, without any or much rearward movement, this is going to make them somewhat harsh to square edged impacts. Then you have the shock that has excessive compression damping. Any damping above and beyond what is required to absorb a bump is going to make the bike harsher on said bumps. Then you have the progressive damping that adds more resistance through the travel, you can argue it all you want, but the idea is largely unproven. I can't imagine how you'd have enough rebound force in very choppy terrain if there isn't any "real" progression (just damping progression), which could easily lead to excessive harsh travel in rock gardens and repetative fast hits. Some of the foes have higher pivots like the DH bike, so this isn't across the board, but it still suffers from the shock technology. ALL of these things have been addressed by manufacturers and most bikes will outperform any Foes bike in terms of suspension. They may stand on their own in terms of lateral stiffness or geometry, but otherwise they are beat in every suspension catagory by just about everything else. Foes is going out of their way to make something that is never going to perform as well as a basic linkage-actuated single pivot, and the more advanced technologies these days simply outclass them by far.

    Chassi design is also important obviously, I've had crappy FS bikes before, and any design has to be applied and designed correctly in that sense. My foes had a huge long 10mm bolt going through the scissor linkage and shock, and it would always bend. With a bolt that long (at least 4"), you can simply impart a massive amount of leverage on it. It doesn't matter how good the suspension is with something like that holding it back. Another poor one was my azonic saber, pretty crappy bike overall. Decent suspension, but it didn't matter with the lateral flex and same shock-bolt design. Some manufacturers like Iron Horse made some amazing stuff like their DW bikes, yet shoddy quality and so-so pivot designs held them back. So, yes, there are far better bikes, they have to be designed decently, it's not as big a problem today as it used to be. I am refraining from naming any bikes specifically that are "better" than foes though, because when it comes to suspension, most everything I've owned and ridden was better. Some by different amounts.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  22. #22
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    its good to see so much weight coming off of the frame. my 2:1 was 47lbs built up..6 lbs heavier than my Revolt and 7lbs heavier than my RS7

    i have my 2:1 Mono sitting on my wall collecting dust :spam:

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    i have my 2:1 Mono sitting on my wall collecting dust
    Need help to clean dust?
    I'll be happy to do it!
    Great winners both of you: deadatbirth and hypoxic!
    PS. How long I will control myself??????

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by missfoesquebec
    PS. How long I will control myself??????
    Go on, do it! You know you want to ...


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    I Can't with 2 2007 Foes 2.1 (medium and small) and old 2002 mono DHS!
    At first I thought, what the big deal of the 2010?
    Then all the secret improvments made me (almost) change my mind.
    It lost 3 pounds. Still cool lookin' Better shock without bulb valv or 2 springs. A lot easier to built the shock. Chain guide as you wish. Security gards rubber on the frame for excess turning fork.
    Well well well!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by missfoesquebec
    I Can't with 2 2007 Foes 2.1 (medium and small) and old 2002 mono DHS!
    At first I thought, what the big deal of the 2010?
    Then all the secret improvments made me (almost) change my mind.
    It lost 3 pounds. Still cool lookin' Better shock without bulb valv or 2 springs. A lot easier to built the shock. Chain guide as you wish. Security gards rubber on the frame for excess turning fork.
    Well well well!
    Nice ...

    I had a 1999 DHS mono, one of 10 unique team frames built before the Y2K (to this day I regret selling it). Replaced it with a 2004 DHS which was stolen from me about a year ago, complete with custom paint, team replica decals and super rare team-only prototype F1 forks. Probably wouldn't have replaced it if it hadn't been stolen, but just couldn't stomach being without a DH bike.

    Can't wait to get my new frame built up. Have even super-customed my XTD fork. If you're lucky I might post some pics up here when it's all built ...Stolen DHS Mono.jpg

  27. #27
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    How'd you customize the XTD's? I had carbon-fiber leg guards made for mine,
    looks sweet!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana
    How'd you customize the XTD's? I had carbon-fiber leg guards made for mine,
    looks sweet!
    Me too. I've had a one-off carbon shelled front hub made for it, replaced all the bolts with titanium and am currently working on an air spring leg for it, but that's still a work in progress.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypoxic
    Me too. I've had a one-off carbon shelled front hub made for it, replaced all the bolts with titanium and am currently working on an air spring leg for it, but that's still a work in progress.
    That sounds sweet, show it all off with some pics!!!

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    , team replica decals
    The big letters of the 2002 Foes Mono DHS are so cute. I remember that for the first time I saw this new frame at the end of Aug 2001 at World Cup in Mont Ste-Anne. It was an automatic bing bang into the heart. Your bike look like the Marla Streb Foes bike in 2001. So so sweet!
    Largers decals are better but the new 2.1 frame is not built for that
    See this personal website and maybe you will find at Mont-Ste-Anne in 2001 (French with pics) what I'm talking about.
    http://canadiandownhill.tripod.com/
    2003: winner was Fionn Griffith. The lady with Nordique Jersey (pro hockey team in Quebec City) was me in 2003 at MSA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    If you have a single-ring bike, like a DH bike or FR bike, you don't need an "anti-bob" platform. You can place the pivot at a spot where it will intersect the chainline correctly to provide good pedaling traits. It becomes more problamatic when you have two or three rings and need to try and tune the proper behavior into the bike with those varying chainlines. Most of those bikes make pretty big compramises. The "virtual" pivot type bikes (not VPP specifically, but things like horst-links, dw link, vpp, whatever niner's system is called, etc) allow for this without having to make big sacrifices. Something like a high-pivot heckler will stiffen a lot under pedaling forces to help prevent bob, which will cause it to be pretty harsh in bumps while pedaling, yet if you take a much lower bike and give it the compression damping it needs to resist chassi movement and pedal decently(like a Foes) it ends up also being somewhat harsh, but for other reasons. There is kind of a "middle ground", where you don't have to have excesive compression damping yet the bike pedals decently, but this is still a compramise, maybe a little "harsher" still or maybe it bobs a little.

    There's also a difference between some "bob" and actually robbing energy. You can have some chassi movement without much energy loss, but for some people the visual aspect of this is too much to overcome. On the other hand, it should be a relationship of how much energy goes into pedaling and how much of that moves the bike forward. One aspect that I'm noticing more is how certain bikes (some of mine as well) "squat" when you try to go up a steep hill. This robs a lot of energy as the rear compresses quite a bit, yet on level ground the bike accelerates with little bob or loss of energy.

    While I'm touching on different subjects and bikes, my main point is that you can "have your cake and eat it too" to a much higher extent than a few years ago. Most foes have a pretty low pivot, without any or much rearward movement, this is going to make them somewhat harsh to square edged impacts. Then you have the shock that has excessive compression damping. Any damping above and beyond what is required to absorb a bump is going to make the bike harsher on said bumps. Then you have the progressive damping that adds more resistance through the travel, you can argue it all you want, but the idea is largely unproven. I can't imagine how you'd have enough rebound force in very choppy terrain if there isn't any "real" progression (just damping progression), which could easily lead to excessive harsh travel in rock gardens and repetative fast hits. Some of the foes have higher pivots like the DH bike, so this isn't across the board, but it still suffers from the shock technology. ALL of these things have been addressed by manufacturers and most bikes will outperform any Foes bike in terms of suspension. They may stand on their own in terms of lateral stiffness or geometry, but otherwise they are beat in every suspension catagory by just about everything else. Foes is going out of their way to make something that is never going to perform as well as a basic linkage-actuated single pivot, and the more advanced technologies these days simply outclass them by far.

    Chassi design is also important obviously, I've had crappy FS bikes before, and any design has to be applied and designed correctly in that sense. My foes had a huge long 10mm bolt going through the scissor linkage and shock, and it would always bend. With a bolt that long (at least 4"), you can simply impart a massive amount of leverage on it. It doesn't matter how good the suspension is with something like that holding it back. Another poor one was my azonic saber, pretty crappy bike overall. Decent suspension, but it didn't matter with the lateral flex and same shock-bolt design. Some manufacturers like Iron Horse made some amazing stuff like their DW bikes, yet shoddy quality and so-so pivot designs held them back. So, yes, there are far better bikes, they have to be designed decently, it's not as big a problem today as it used to be. I am refraining from naming any bikes specifically that are "better" than foes though, because when it comes to suspension, most everything I've owned and ridden was better. Some by different amounts.


    So do you just masturbate to bike tech specifics instead of porn? Further more if you dislike Foes so much, why are you here?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by McBloodClot
    So do you just masturbate to bike tech specifics instead of porn? Further more if you dislike Foes so much, why are you here?
    Hey man, that's not called for. I asked Jayem an honest question, and he gave me an honest and thought-out answer. I may not always agree with his ideas and answers, but I certainly appreciate his point of view and input. Take the useless hate somewhere else.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrissa
    Hey man, that's not called for. I asked Jayem an honest question, and he gave me an honest and thought-out answer. I may not always agree with his ideas and answers, but I certainly appreciate his point of view and input. Take the useless hate somewhere else.
    Let's see some facts from my own experience in racing.
    Just the facts.
    World Cup at Mont-Sante-Anne (MSA) in 2007.
    My 4th WC at MSA.
    50 years at the time. Yes folks this is the record (oldest woman ever in a World Cup!).
    Bike: Foes 2.1 2006.
    The start was very fast in an open ski trail with sharps rocks for about 30 sec.
    I trained 4 days without pinch flat. It was dry all these days. Many racers changing wheels with a lot of flat. Shocks not adjust properly for all of these racers? Giant, Norco, Commencal Intense, Yeti. All the big teams.
    Semi finals: 24th.I can do better. The finals is the only race that matter you know.
    Here the finals. In 2006 the first 30 went to finals. No more of this these days. Only the first 20 with that modern rules. Anyway.
    I started second on the finals. Fast on uphill part, smooth on rocks gardens.
    I finished 19th. Second Canadian few sec (lost many sec near the finish line on a tight loose sand curve) behind Sheila Morris (38 years old and National Champs in 2008). All others Canadians out for punctures and few international rider as well.
    When you race on technical trails like MSA, Fort-William, Champery, Plattekill and Mount Snow maybe. The longer shocks is the best like a missile to the finish line and smooth like a lazyboy all way down.
    When a complete bike (frame, shock fork) don't change year after year it because it's THE BEST!!!

  34. #34
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    You're preaching to the choir here.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrissa
    Hey man, that's not called for. I asked Jayem an honest question, and he gave me an honest and thought-out answer. I may not always agree with his ideas and answers, but I certainly appreciate his point of view and input. Take the useless hate somewhere else.
    I second that. Let's keep the debate constructive.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by McBloodClot
    So do you just masturbate to bike tech specifics instead of porn? Further more if you dislike Foes so much, why are you here?
    Well, seeing as I actually owned a foes...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Well, seeing as I actually owned a foes...
    You haven't had a Foes in years. But when you did - and when you posted under a different handle - you were much more enamored of them.

    Since then you've trolled the Foes forum, berating Curnutt shocks.

    Every forum has its trolls, I suppose - but do you really want to be compared to mountainbeyotcher123?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    ...in addition, 4 DHXs, the DHX also has the same technology, called the "boost valve"...
    You didn't have 4 DHX Fox shocks with Curnutt technology in them unless it was VERY recently (last year or less), or there was patent infringement going on.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by azoutside
    You didn't have 4 DHX Fox shocks with Curnutt technology in them unless it was VERY recently (last year or less), or there was patent infringement going on.
    Nope, Fox used the same general idea, although they coupled it with a shim-stack, whereas Curnutt/5th had a simple "on/off" system where the "SPV" pressure had to be overcome and then there wasn't really the same type of speed-sensitive meetering of the oil as with the DHX (see Avalanche 5th element mod). Yes, Fox DID use the same general idea, but they coupled it with a speed-sensitive piston as well, so it wasn't "just" SPV. I don't know if Charlie Curnutt protected his invention enough, but odds are he wasn't specific enough in the possible applications/variations. The basic idea is that the air-pressure/ramp up in the reservior controls a valve that meters the oil flow. This was a relatively new idea with SPV, at least to the extent that it did control the shock, and then it was used on the DHX.

    The entire premise of the DHX when it came out was that it offered position-sensitive damping or "platform", while still retaining speed-sensitive characteristics. It was supposed to offer similer benefits to the curnutt, while outperforming it at speed and bump-absorption.

    I found that even the DHX had a little too much restriction in the flow. This is highly dependant on the rider and bike, but this is something that PUSH originally took out of the DHX for their first "race" tune, which is no longer offered. It turned out that riders did not want the "ultimate" in the suspension action, but rather they wanted to be able to adjust the platform, so Push had to go with a compramise for a while, but now they offer the MX tune which once again entirely guts the shock of the "boost-valve".

    The DHXs were nowhere near as extreme (extremely harsh) as the curnutt and 5th element shocks that I owned, but make no mistake, I owned and rode those as well. You might want to study up on the premise of the SPV valve. It's the same thing as the boost-valve that is used in the DHX, but the extent of the control IS different.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    ...I don't know if Charlie Curnutt protected his invention enough, but odds are he wasn't specific enough in the possible applications/variations...
    It's protected enough that it's now licensed and being used in the RP23 and DHX. And by the way, it's Chuck's invention. Charlie helped develop the application and worked with Brent to introduce it into the MTB market. The cavity valve (aka "SPV") has been used in a few different shocks that had somewhat different performance based on the way the design was tuned by the different manufacturers. The Foes version is the truest to the original design as far as I know, and IMO works extremely well, at least in the latest version that I've been using. Set up correctly, it provides excellent anti-bob even on a single pivot frame and gives amazing bottoming control. I personally don't feel the harshness that you complain of, although I do understand that if a shock is going to provide resistance against slow movements, it will potentially have a less-supple feel over the small stuff than a shock that does not have the same control. I wouldn't mind trying the new Fox sometime, would be an interesting comparison to see how it stacks up.

  41. #41
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    What Foes are you riding? And are you using a coil or air Shock?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blyth
    What Foes are you riding? And are you using a coil or air Shock?
    XCT-5, XTD Air, Fox Float 32 (140) up front. It's a great cushy XC bike. I don't get crazy with bombing down stuff so I went with the lighter bike rather than the more popular FXR.

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    " Curnut invented the whole 'platform' damping technology then sold the patent to Fifth Element (edit: Turner in 2003) and started the whole damper revolution thing off. The curnut shocks on the Foes, their 2:1 leverage ratio, the quality of their build - they really are special"
    http://www.singletrackworld.com/foru...-top-for-wales
    When it was bought in 2003, Foes kept an exclusivity of the original patent for Foes bikes only but with a cost on each shock sold. The SPV was adapt to others bikes at a lower cost with some limitations I guess. I read that too on Mountain Biking mag around 2003.

  44. #44
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    The patent was licensed to Turner (Progressive Suspension - 5th Element) and subsequently sub-licensed to other manufacturers. Under that agreement, a special clause was included that would allow Foes to also use the same technology on a limited basis.

    Jayem, if you're down at the 24HOP this weekend, feel free to stop by our camp and say hello. If you mind your manners I'll introduce you to the inventor of SPV and you can tell him what a piece of crap you think it is in person. Look for a silver Dodge quad cab with a 5th wheel trailer and a dark red Excursion.


  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by azoutside
    The patent was licensed to Turner (Progressive Suspension - 5th Element) and subsequently sub-licensed to other manufacturers. Under that agreement, a special clause was included that would allow Foes to also use the same technology on a limited basis.

    Jayem, if you're down at the 24HOP this weekend, feel free to stop by our camp and say hello. If you mind your manners I'll introduce you to the inventor of SPV and you can tell him what a piece of crap you think it is in person. Look for a silver Dodge quad cab with a 5th wheel trailer and a dark red Excursion.

    Naw, was going to be a mechanic down there, but just couldn't afford the trip. It would be fun to ask him some questions about how it can possibly perform up to the level of something like a CCDB or my avalanches considering it has more compression damping (CV/T) than is required for bump absorption, but I don't need to ask him questions about what I already know. I had them look at the shock 2x and then rebuild it the last time, it was always a turd. It clunked on the rebound and was like a jackhammer, they tried to feed me some BS about "new bushings" being the source of it and that it dynoed fine, even though it was more than 6 mo old and ridden frequently. Worst $550 I spent in mtb. Foes could have ruled the DH scene by using traditional shocks and pushing their great lateral rigidity. I get singled out because I'm vocal about my experience, but look back through the foes threads and you'll find plenty of people agreeing with me and the same themes echoed by others. You can claim it's just a big conspiracy theory I guess.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Naw, was going to be a mechanic down there, but just couldn't afford the trip. It would be fun to ask him some questions about how it can possibly perform up to the level of something like a CCDB or my avalanches considering it has more compression damping (CV/T) than is required for bump absorption, but I don't need to ask him questions about what I already know. I had them look at the shock 2x and then rebuild it the last time, it was always a turd. It clunked on the rebound and was like a jackhammer, they tried to feed me some BS about "new bushings" being the source of it and that it dynoed fine, even though it was more than 6 mo old and ridden frequently. Worst $550 I spent in mtb. Foes could have ruled the DH scene by using traditional shocks and pushing their great lateral rigidity. I get singled out because I'm vocal about my experience, but look back through the foes threads and you'll find plenty of people agreeing with me and the same themes echoed by others. You can claim it's just a big conspiracy theory I guess.
    I just think you're a bore. You haven't owned a Foes in 3-4 years and have no experience with the new air shocks - yet you're still trolling the Foes board.

    What's more, you're also a hypocrite.

    Back when you owned an FXR you loved it - and posted about it frequently.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Naw, was going to be a mechanic down there, but just couldn't afford the trip. It would be fun to ask him some questions about how it can possibly perform up to the level of something like a CCDB or my avalanches considering it has more compression damping (CV/T) than is required for bump absorption, but I don't need to ask him questions about what I already know. I had them look at the shock 2x and then rebuild it the last time, it was always a turd. It clunked on the rebound and was like a jackhammer, they tried to feed me some BS about "new bushings" being the source of it and that it dynoed fine, even though it was more than 6 mo old and ridden frequently. Worst $550 I spent in mtb. Foes could have ruled the DH scene by using traditional shocks and pushing their great lateral rigidity. I get singled out because I'm vocal about my experience, but look back through the foes threads and you'll find plenty of people agreeing with me and the same themes echoed by others. You can claim it's just a big conspiracy theory I guess.
    I agree 100%.

    I went through the same thing as you. I sent my Curnutt back a couple times and it always clunked and was just plain terrible. The first Curnutt they let me trade for a Romic and it blew the Curnutt away. Then I tried the Avy and was amazed. On my second Foes I was told the Curnutt was fixed, so I got it again and again it was terrible. I put an Avy on it and was happy. I loved both of my Flys, but the Curnutt was just terrible. Then when I broke my Fly, the hassle I went through was just not worth owning a Foes anymore. I rode the 2nd Fly for a season and sold it. I still miss the stiffness, but I have moved on. Now that their bike are available with other shocks you might see more of them on the trails, but I havent seen one in the last 2 years.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Naw, was going to be a mechanic down there, but just couldn't afford the trip. blah blah blah....
    That's a shame. I was so looking forward to meeting the man who really does know it all.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    ...I get singled out because I'm vocal about my experience, but look back through the foes threads and you'll find plenty of people agreeing with me and the same themes echoed by others. You can claim it's just a big conspiracy theory I guess.
    I don't mind the fact that you have an opinion that is formed based on your experience and analysis of data you've gathered. In fact I find it refreshing, because there are far too many who simply follow and never seem to think for themselves. I don't expect everyone to like a particular product. The Curnutt shock has inspired a wide array of opinions since its inception in the late 60s, through all of its versions. The concept of using compression damping to control vehicle motion is admittedly controversial. What I do find interesting is your particular approach to vocalizing your opinions. I extended a (mostly) sincere offer to meet a person who has contributed significantly to the suspension industry, regardless of whether you agree with his designs or not, and you responded in your typical rude and arrogant fashion. Your choice, I suppose, but not one that I would have made.

    Last edited by azoutside; 02-16-2010 at 04:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrissa
    Hey man, that's not called for. I asked Jayem an honest question, and he gave me an honest and thought-out answer. I may not always agree with his ideas and answers, but I certainly appreciate his point of view and input. Take the useless hate somewhere else.

    Alright DUDE... first off I am new to this whole forum thing and I think it is great...where else can you drink a **** load of beer, talk smack rather you know something or not, and not have to worry about getting cock punched! hahha.. Love the 21st century!!!

    For useless hate...dude forums are one of the most useless outlets of all time, it's great!!! Second...if you really gave a **** what this jayem dude has to say about what I am assuming is a bike you already own and love, then private e-mail him.

    For someone like me that owns a Foes and thinks the Curnutt and other SPV are some of the most bad ass performing rear shocks on the market, don't really give a **** what some dude that is so nose deep in paper theory that writes an essay on why Curnutt and SPV are **** shocks compared to a Fox/ Avy/Your Moms shock...blah blah blah.

    Yeah I and everyone else that has ridden a jungle bungle of different suspension bikes with different rear shocks....oh my gosh!!! what is the best, what really works...oh my gosh!!!! Well it's a good thing that what matters most of all over everything is a thing that I don't feel most people on forums understand, and it's called RIDER PREFERENCE!!! If one technology was so superior over all technologies that worked on all bikes no matter the linkage, then hey...wouldn't our sport be boring, we all ride the same damn bike and setup.

    So for people like Jayem...hey, it's guys like you that make fourms fun, we get drunk, laugh at you can't help write stupid drunken comments in response...for everyone else...

    FOES AND CURNUTT ****ING RULE!!!

    otherwise, I wouldn't be on this forum!!!

  50. #50
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    I tried to find few days ago any retailers selling 2010 Mono Foes. Didn't find this frame on website of the past retailers like Go-Ride, JensonUSA and BeyondBike. Do you know someone that bought the new bike or frame ?

    No news yet about special program for a Foes team (grass roots or pro).
    It looks that the*marketing side of the company is missing.
    No more riders on Foes in recent DVD.
    Tha's worrying a bit.

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