Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TrailZen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    369

    Plating Failure, EquiLink Pivot Shafts, '08 Virtue 2

    It appears that the designer or engineer who spec'd the EquiLink parts for the '08 Virtue 2 skipped ME-401 (Elements of Machine Design) class the afternoon we covered Hertz contact stress. Otherwise s/he would have known that using a plated shoulder bolt as the inner race of a needle bearing really isn't a good idea. After only 150 trail miles on my '08 Virtue 2, I traced a clicking noise to the EquiLink pivots. Removing the shoulder bolts revealed that the plating on the lower bolt was flaking off the bolt and into the needle bearing. I contacted Felt via 'info@feltbicycles.com' hoping to learn if they were aware of the problem, and if so, if they had spec'd a better shoulder bolt for the application. Felt sent me a canned '...take it to your dealer...' response, even though I had clearly stated that I prefer to do my own bike repairs...

    Because I've spec'd a part or two myself (33+ years as a mechanical engineer, machine design and machine maintenance focus), I measured the components and used McMaster-Carr (M-C), long one of my favorite sources of machine components, to bypass Felt and obtain my own replacements. While the components may vary on other Felt models, the '08 Virtue 2 uses the following:

    Lower EquiLink Bolt: 8mm shoulder bolt, 45mm shoulder length, M6 threads. M-C part #92981A250 ($3.04)

    Upper EquiLink Bolt: 8mm shoulder bolt, 50mm shoulder length, M6 threads. M-C part #92981A207 ($2.73)

    EquiLink Bearings: INA HK0810-RS, 8mm shaft diameter, 12mm OD, 10mm width, Single Sealed. M-C part #5905K84, $8.78, four total per EquiLink (Note--if your bearings are toasted, special equipment is required to press the old bearings out and new bearings in...)

    If you catch this problem before the plating starts showing Hertz stress failure, you can simply replace the two bolts for a cost of ~$10 in parts and shipping. If the plating is only starting to fail, you MIGHT be able to flush and re-lube the bearings--your call...

    The mess I found in my EquiLink assembly is detailed in the close-up photos below. The first photo shows the failed plating on my old lower bolt. The second photo shows the result of solvent-flushing the bad bearings, then filtering the solvent to catch the plating fragments that had been deposited in my lower bearings. As a size reference, the scale is 0.5mm (~0.020") increments... The third photo shows the old shoulder bolt beside the new one--note the difference in surface quality.

    Hope this helps some of you Virtue 2 owners correct a potential problem BEFORE it happens. There are a couple down-sides to the replacement I've made: The shoulder bolts I installed are Grade 12.9 alloy steel--they will rust, so every time I clean my chain, I brush a little chain lube on the exposed bits of the bolts. And the hex socket on the M-C parts is 4mm rather than 5mm. That shouldn't make a difference in future removals UNLESS you use a worn hex key...

    Later,
    TZ

    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1235686818

    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1235686818

    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1235686818
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by TrailZen; 02-26-2009 at 02:46 PM.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    7
    Oh my god, I have a Virtue 2 (08) that developed a creeking noise especially over hard uneven ground. I had better take your advice and start stripping things down to look for wear.

    Thanks for the 'heads-up', much appriciated.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    10
    Just stripped my Felt Compulsion 2 back end down, to find EXACTLY the same scenario - also planning to do the repairs myself.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TrailZen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    369

    Sorry to hear about another one...

    Quote Originally Posted by prb007
    Just stripped my Felt Compulsion 2 back end down, to find EXACTLY the same scenario - also planning to do the repairs myself.
    prb007,
    Good luck with the repairs--hope you caught it early enough that you don't have to replace the bearings... When I initially contacted Felt about this issue, they acted like they'd never heard of the problem, but from the number of folks who've contacted me directly, I fear it's pretty wide-spread. The parts numbers I posted were for my Virtue 2, and the shoulder lengths may be slightly different on other models--haven't looked at other. McMaster-Carr has a great selection of shoulder bolts, however, so you should be able to get your replacement parts there if your local Felt dealer doesn't help...

    If you have to press out the bearings, be advised that the EquiLink cavity is a straight bore (on the Vistue 2, at least), so you can press BOTH out of an end with a single operation. Before pressing them out, measure the installed depth so you put the new bearings in to the same position. New bearings should be pressed in from each side, and ALWAYS press a bearing against its 'data' side (where the number, etc, is stamped)...

    If I can help you in any way with this, feel free to pm me. Checked my replacement work a while back, and see NO signs of stress after 600+ miles--the original plated crap died with less than 150...
    TZ
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    10
    Needle bearings shot to pieces! got spares from UK - based dealer after cross referencing your part number! Cost me about 25 (20 bucks). Also in the throes of trying to get new Equilink top and bottom bolts from Felt Europe, rather than replace the damaged bolts into new bearings! Will post again when bike is up & running (hopefully less than a week!). Thanks for your esponse and original post.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    10
    my 'specialist tools' were a 11mm socket and a ball-pein hammer!

    the bolt...............[IMG]file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Peter.MSI-SYSTEM/Desktop/IMG_2291.JPG[/IMG]

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    10

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TrailZen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by prb007
    Yep--bearings shot! I can see a groove where the edge of the bearing cup was digging into the bolt near the damaged plating... I didn't realize you were in Wales until I saw another of your posts, and don't have a clue of how to source parts there. McMaster doesn't list a European branch...

    Like you, I used a hammer and punch to drive out my first bearing--I was really angry with the whole thing! Needles shot all across my garage... But I used a press (and a socket) to install the new bearings, rather than trying to tap them in with a hammer. If you have a large C-clamp, that will substitute for the press, and gives you a bit finer control of the pressed depth of each bearing. Good luck with the bolts, and I hope the bike is back on the trail soon!

    Regards,
    TZ
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2
    Just doing this to my Virtue - searching for 45mm long shoulder bolts and google found this post! Anyway - 45mm shoulder bolts appear pretty rare, found one on ebay for 16!! I've just mailed Ti Bolts for a quote - interested in that prb007 if the price looks good?
    I replaced my bearings with Oilite bushes, done the bearings once before and thought this time I'd give some bushes ago - at 50p ea, worth a try!

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    10
    Been in touch with Wiggle (from whom I bought the bike in March and Felt Europe) and hopefully getting some 'replacement parts' any day now - will post again when these turn up to see what parts they send. Already bought bearings from simplybearings.co.uk.....20 quid.

    Where did u find the bushes? Maybe an option next time - if they go again in another 6 months!
    if Wales was flattened out it'd be bigger than Texas!

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    10
    Found these AND they're not chrome plated, but, like I said, will wait until Felt come up with the goods first...............

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/8MM-M6-X-50-AL...item439ab855fc
    if Wales was flattened out it'd be bigger than Texas!

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2
    http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Plain_O...earings-1158-c

    Just pm'ed you ref buying bolts - ignore that! Hopefully, if I've inseted the link correctly you'll see a link to Bearingboys above. Much better price on the bolts you found on ebay - good find, just mailed tehm ref a 45 long as they don't have one listed.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TrailZen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    369
    Yensid, prb007,
    McMaster's website says they ship internationally via DHL... I have no idea what the shipping would cost, or if you'd have to pay some excise taxes on top of that, but it's an option. If you know several Felt owners who are facing the plating issue, perhaps it would be worth the effort and cost of placing a single combined order, as McMaster offers such a variety of shoulder lengths in their hardened bolts... Make sure the bolts you install under the needle bearings are hardened--not quite as important if you retrofit with bushings. Good luck on your repairs.
    TZ
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    1
    I asked McMaster to ship them to Spain and they said they don't do send them anymore abroad. Do anybody kow how to get these parts from other providers ?

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    10
    contact Felt Europe - they should send you the parts you need - very difficult to source them elsewhere - I tried! The needle bearings are common items, but the shoulder bolts are very difficult to source.
    if Wales was flattened out it'd be bigger than Texas!

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: smilinsteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    6,769
    TrailZen,
    Are you recommending replacing the OEM bolts with the same type of plated bolt? Would a stainless bolt be a better option?

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TrailZen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    369

    Stick With 12.9 Alloy Steel...

    Smilinsteve,
    In my original post I say "...using a plated shoulder bolt as the inner race of a needle bearing really isn't a good idea." The parts I recommended are grade 12.9 alloy steel--they're hard and will withstand the Hertz stresses from the needle bearings. A year later I'm still running the bolts I installed when I found the problem with Felt's plated bolts. While some grades of stainless can be hardened, most commonly available s/s bolts are not as hard as the alloy steel bolts...
    TZ
    Geriatric mountain biker and trail maintainer... ...with digital braking!

  18. #18
    Tigers love pepper...
    Reputation: cobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    1,367
    Mine failed today. Guess I better take it in and see what they can do.

  19. #19
    ouch....
    Reputation: girgl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    59
    i have just seen you failure
    Just for your info:
    I replaced the 4 INA HK0810-RS with 4X HK0812RS, which are a little bit wider but fit in my Redemptions Equilink. This gives more contact area and causes less stress.
    I also used some Scotchbrite pads to remove the plating completely, which gives a minor decrease in Outer diameter of the bolts and has been showing no real problems for the last year.

    Also I filled the bearings completely with grease, the standard filling volume is for high speed plus full rotation applications and will not give sufficient greaseing for high speed and oscilating movements.
    I chose a Molybdenum Type of grease ( the black awquard stuff) because in this application the molybdenum particles will help in reducing the metal to metal contact.

    So far this seems to work for more than a year now in muddy wet conditions without regrasing or anything else.

    cheers Georg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Plating Failure, EquiLink Pivot Shafts, '08 Virtue 2-img_2142-large-.jpg  

    Attached Files Attached Files
    ????

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    43
    WOW! Am I glad this old thread surfaced again. I need to check out my bikes and take care of them right away before anything gets tore up. As for McMaster - Carr, I've used them lots of times and they are a teriffic resource with very quick shipping. I've always ordered through my work. Do they sell direct to the public?

  21. #21
    sof
    sof is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    58
    Same issue on mine, though I didn't notice until a few week ago when sudden play started in the equilink bar. The bearings were completely eroded; you couldn't even recognise them as bearings. Replacements from Felt Europe have been slow coming due to christmas, but fortunately my lass is German and gave them a call for me, should be here in a few days. I bought the bearing replacement kit but sourced the bolts myself to avoid the same failure.

    I've had the bike 3+ year and haven't ever serviced the bearings so no real complaints, just a shame it's took so long for the bearings to ship.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1
    Hey, I'm having the same problem on my Redemption One (2010) and currently try to find stainless steel or at least 12.9 screws for replacement ... but as girgl shows above the Redemption Equilink needs shoulder lengths of 55.5 and 43 mm and thread lengths of 11 or respectively 8 mm - any ideas on where to get these kind of screws?!
    I checked McMaster - they have very nice TiCN-Coated 18-8 and stainless steel hardware but just not these weird sizes ...

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3
    Hi all
    @ sof : I would like to know where you got the the bolts from, like stealthy, I could not get them
    I still use the original ones which still seem to be fine with the bearings I changed back in 2012
    Cheers georg
    Even ten minutes on my bike make me happy and glad to be able to do it at all.

    Alias girgl,

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •