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  1. #1
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    FELT Launches new 29er hardtail line

    http://www.feltracing.com/news/default.asp#11

    I like the spec on these like the 180 cranks on the biggest size. 29lbs for the ss seems a bit heavy though!

  2. #2
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    Interesting... anybody ridden one of these? Didn't see any reviews on it yet.

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    Wonder why the SS is heavier AND the same price as the geared bike??? 70mm BB drop? cool

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    It seems like the MSRP on the Pro 29' is really really really cheap...

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    I like it...and I think my buddy from the LBS carries Felt which might mean a bit of a discount.

    J

  6. #6
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    Observations

    Single speed: Cool color! EBB and integrated headset add weight. Also, it's got hydro brakes, which are heavier. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the listed weight is incorrect. But it's probably close. A Raleigh XXIX weighs in at 27lbs on my scale with a rigid fork. Finally, if that rig comes with a radially laced front wheel like the picture shows I'd not be pleased about that!

    Hardtails: Why is a shade of green on everybodies 29"er? Spec seems about right, although the "Pro" weight seems a bit optimistic. Prices are pretty well on the mark considering other 29"ers I've looked at. Standout spec items are the Avid hydro brakes and Ignitor tires. Finally, something other than an Exi!

    Ibex has a 29"er coming out that looks to have the identical frame to these for their hardtail FS model. You can score that one for a grand if you pre order it.

    As for me, I'm not an integrated headset fan, so that's a deal killer for me.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding
    Wonder why the SS is heavier AND the same price as the geared bike??? 70mm BB drop? cool
    Higher spec disc brakes and cranks, trail bike rims instead of xc rims, felt custom hubs, different frame with an EBB, also it looks like the SS includes platform pedals but the nine elite doesn't have pedals pictured. Just including platform pedals alone would account for about a pound and a half of weight probably.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Single speed: Cool color! EBB and integrated headset add weight. Also, it's got hydro brakes, which are heavier. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the listed weight is incorrect. But it's probably close. <snip>

    "It has hydro brakes, which are heavier" than what? The entire line has hydros.

    Also, hydros are only heavier than mechanicals if you use reverse math. Weights for the hydraulics always are a complete front brake assembly- rotor, caliper, line, fluid, and lever whereas mechanicals only call out the weight of the caliper and rotor set.
    Therefore weights would need to be normalized-
    Hydro system < mechanical system including cable, housing, and brake lever

    For example, Avid calls out 428g for their Juicy 5. However, the BB7 weighs in at 318 (325 for the BB5). Their lightest lever is the Speed Dial SL, at 150. We're up to 468g already, and we haven't factored in the cable or housing, both of which are heavier than their respective hydro counterparts.

    Hydraulics ARE lighter than mechanicals. It's that simple.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobblestone
    http://www.feltracing.com/news/default.asp#11

    I like the spec on these like the 180 cranks on the biggest size. 29lbs for the ss seems a bit heavy though!
    I like the geared version of the Nine Pro. Weight claim of 25.75 lbs (doesn't say what size that is), but a wheelset upgrade could easily trim a pound off of that.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Finally, if that rig comes with a radially laced front wheel like the picture shows I'd not be pleased about that!
    I think that image of the Solo is computer generated, and its easier to model radial lacing.
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  11. #11
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    Sorry!

    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    "It has hydro brakes, which are heavier" than what? The entire line has hydros.

    Also, hydros are only heavier than mechanicals if you use reverse math. Weights for the hydraulics always are a complete front brake assembly- rotor, caliper, line, fluid, and lever whereas mechanicals only call out the weight of the caliper and rotor set.
    Therefore weights would need to be normalized-
    Hydro system < mechanical system including cable, housing, and brake lever

    For example, Avid calls out 428g for their Juicy 5. However, the BB7 weighs in at 318 (325 for the BB5). Their lightest lever is the Speed Dial SL, at 150. We're up to 468g already, and we haven't factored in the cable or housing, both of which are heavier than their respective hydro counterparts.

    Hydraulics ARE lighter than mechanicals. It's that simple.


    miles
    I stand corrected. I had forgotten the weights of mechs did not include the levers and lines. Thanks for pointing that out.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    I stand corrected. I had forgotten the weights of mechs did not include the levers and lines. Thanks for pointing that out.


    A very common mistake. Perpetuated by the component manufacturers, no doubt.



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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    "It has hydro brakes, which are heavier" than what? The entire line has hydros.

    Also, hydros are only heavier than mechanicals if you use reverse math. Weights for the hydraulics always are a complete front brake assembly- rotor, caliper, line, fluid, and lever whereas mechanicals only call out the weight of the caliper and rotor set.
    Therefore weights would need to be normalized-
    Hydro system < mechanical system including cable, housing, and brake lever

    For example, Avid calls out 428g for their Juicy 5. However, the BB7 weighs in at 318 (325 for the BB5). Their lightest lever is the Speed Dial SL, at 150. We're up to 468g already, and we haven't factored in the cable or housing, both of which are heavier than their respective hydro counterparts.

    Hydraulics ARE lighter than mechanicals. It's that simple.


    miles
    Your also listing the weight of 2 levers, with one caliper, which moves you down to 393 plus cables.

  14. #14
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    Yep...

    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    "It has hydro brakes, which are heavier" than what? The entire line has hydros.

    Also, hydros are only heavier than mechanicals if you use reverse math. Weights for the hydraulics always are a complete front brake assembly- rotor, caliper, line, fluid, and lever whereas mechanicals only call out the weight of the caliper and rotor set.
    Therefore weights would need to be normalized-
    Hydro system < mechanical system including cable, housing, and brake lever

    For example, Avid calls out 428g for their Juicy 5. However, the BB7 weighs in at 318 (325 for the BB5). Their lightest lever is the Speed Dial SL, at 150. We're up to 468g already, and we haven't factored in the cable or housing, both of which are heavier than their respective hydro counterparts.

    Hydraulics ARE lighter than mechanicals. It's that simple.


    miles
    Thread Hijack alert!

    I shaved 2/3 of a pound off my bike by dumping my BB7s and going with Magura Claras. Another plus side, they felt way better. In the negative side, they sucked in a fat air bubble once a month, requiring a bleeding... and ruining my rides. Swapped those out for some Hope Mono Minis, lost a few more grams, and gained some great frickin brakes.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    Single speed: Cool color! EBB and integrated headset add weight.
    As for me, I'm not an integrated headset fan, so that's a deal killer for me.
    EBB's add weight yes, but intergrated headsets do NOT. If anything, most intergrated headsets (whether they be internal or zero stack) are lighter than conventional headsets. It would be nice if they gave a better model identity for the headset. Internal and Zero Stack do have some differences.
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  16. #16
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    You're right, but.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    EBB's add weight yes, but intergrated headsets do NOT. If anything, most intergrated headsets (whether they be internal or zero stack) are lighter than conventional headsets. It would be nice if they gave a better model identity for the headset. Internal and Zero Stack do have some differences.
    By necessity, the head tube itself has to be reinforced to accomodate the bearings and spread the loading forces adequately so as to not deform the head tube. This weight must be accounted for since it is in effect part of the "head set" of the bike, as it were. Usually this means that the overall weight will end up being more than a conventional headset and frame, but this is difficult to demonstrate.

    But be that as it may, the thing that I really don't like is that integrated headsets on mountain bikes introduce a higher risk of frame failure and limit your head set choices. It's something that is just not necessary. What problem does an integrated headset solve anyway?

    Back to the initial discussion: The Felt 29"er line. It's an interesting line up, but it really isn't all that different than some others. Some spec differences, yes. The standout seems to be the Pro model, which leads the way as far as a nicely spec'ed 29"er for the money. The SS seems a bit pricey for the weight and spec, and the Elite seems about right in terms of what else is out there in that spec and price range.

    Nice to have more choices. Nice to see the hydro brake spec and Maxxis tire spec -that is different. I wish they would have avoided the integrated headset. That to me is the lineups downfall.
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  17. #17
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    1500 for a 29 lbs SS is just stupid. i was really interested when i saw this thread but not anymore

    http://www.feltracing.com/products/p...tid=18,23,1446

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    [QUOTE=heythorp]1500 for a 29 lbs SS is just stupid. i was really interested when i saw this thread but not anymore

    I just got off the phone with the engineer that designed this bike and he has informed me that the weight of the Nine Solo is wrong. As soon as they have the correct weight the website will be changed.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulton
    Your also listing the weight of 2 levers, with one caliper, which moves you down to 393 plus cables.

    I don't believe it. That would put each lever at 75g, which isn't much more than the incredibly delicate Kooka levers from days gone by. I'd have to see them weighed to be convinced.
    In fact, over at Weightweenies, they specifically call out 188g for a pair of Speed Dial Ti levers.



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  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Rob M.]
    Quote Originally Posted by heythorp
    1500 for a 29 lbs SS is just stupid. i was really interested when i saw this thread but not anymore

    I just got off the phone with the engineer that designed this bike and he has informed me that the weight of the Nine Solo is wrong. As soon as they have the correct weight the website will be changed.

    thanks rob, did he give you any indication of what it actually weighs?

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    [QUOTE=heythorp]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob M.


    thanks rob, did he give you any indication of what it actually weighs?
    The official weight is 23.4 lbs. Not sure if it was a 17" or 19" that was weighed. Once I know what size was weighed I will let yoiu know.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    By necessity, the head tube itself has to be reinforced to accomodate the bearings and spread the loading forces adequately so as to not deform the head tube. This weight must be accounted for since it is in effect part of the "head set" of the bike, as it were. Usually this means that the overall weight will end up being more than a conventional headset and frame, but this is difficult to demonstrate.
    Except it doesn't to the extent you think it does, because the whole advantage to the things other than the reduced stack heights is to increase the outside diameter of the headtube, for more weld area with the top and down tubes, and a stronger frame as a result. And just like with frame tubes, increasing the diameter lets you thin the tube wall to have a stiffer/stronger tube, for the same weight.


    What problem does an integrated headset solve anyway?
    You remind me of Chris King, who came up with dozens of excuses for why internal and zero stack headsets were evil, yet his own peridoo headsets were the cat's meow. Nevermind the fact that other companies had been using them successfully for years (cannondale, klein, etc).

    Back to the initial discussion: The Felt 29"er line. It's an interesting line up, but it really isn't all that different than some others.
    I haven't noticed any others spec'ing a 72.5 head angle. Most of the brands who thought to go with a steeper head angle only went 1 degree steeper than standard NORBA XC (71) head angles.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    I don't believe it. That would put each lever at 75g, which isn't much more than the incredibly delicate Kooka levers from days gone by. I'd have to see them weighed to be convinced.
    In fact, over at Weightweenies, they specifically call out 188g for a pair of Speed Dial Ti levers.



    miles
    Your scale of days gone by is broken. Kooka levers were 94 grams for a PAIR. 75g per lever is a LOT more than the kooka levers, or for that matter any of the other really lightweight mechanical levers. Its decidedly middleweight for them in fact. I've had cheap steel core/plastic resin coated bracket/ forged alloy lever blades for V-brakes that cost some factory in taiwan a DOLLAR to produce that weighed 75g/lever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    I don't believe it. That would put each lever at 75g, which isn't much more than the incredibly delicate Kooka levers from days gone by. I'd have to see them weighed to be convinced.
    In fact, over at Weightweenies, they specifically call out 188g for a pair of Speed Dial Ti levers.



    miles
    Go back to your weight weenies ite, Avid SL's listed at 150 a pair.

    regardless, i wasn't arguing the weight, or stating facts. I was just pointing out the error in his math. have a great day.

  25. #25
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    That's about what I remember Andy stating as the projected weight for the Pro, back at Interbike.

    Man, I"m really torn. I'd really like to rip one of these open and just ride it. But with the loss of my last 26er, I'm jonesin for a new ride and I don't thin I can wait for March to get one.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Your scale of days gone by is broken. Kooka levers were 94 grams for a PAIR. 75g per lever is a LOT more than the kooka levers, or for that matter any of the other really lightweight mechanical levers. Its decidedly middleweight for them in fact. I've had cheap steel core/plastic resin coated bracket/ forged alloy lever blades for V-brakes that cost some factory in taiwan a DOLLAR to produce that weighed 75g/lever.

    Here are some photos. The first is the lightest levers ever made by Avid- the canti-friendly CNC Ultimate Ti levers.
    The second is a BB7 complete rotor/caliper set.
    The third is a complete front brake system, with a quite short cable and housing (from a rigid 26" setup with non-suspension length forks).

    I am too lazy to pull a Kooka lever off my wife's bike to weigh and photograph it, so we'll assume Weightweenies is correct at 92g/pair. This means that per lever, the Kookas came in at 46g, as opposed to the 63g of the Avid Ultimates. 17g counts as a few.

    Anyhow, 464g, using less cable and housing than most, and lighter levers than anybody is actually going to use, still comes out heavier than the Hayes Sole, which is a cheap, low end OEM hydro.

    Edit: Ick. My photos didn't upload. I'll post them in the next message.
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  27. #27
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    Here are the photos:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    It's 7:09 California time

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Except it doesn't to the extent you think it does, because the whole advantage to the things other than the reduced stack heights is to increase the outside diameter of the headtube, for more weld area with the top and down tubes, and a stronger frame as a result. And just like with frame tubes, increasing the diameter lets you thin the tube wall to have a stiffer/stronger tube, for the same weight.
    Ideally, you are correct again. But, we are talking about a mass produced, inexpensive frameset. Usually not the ideal tube dimensions for lightweight are being used, but thicker, more robust tubing for durability. Less warranties that way. Well, usually......see my next response!




    You remind me of Chris King, who came up with dozens of excuses for why internal and zero stack headsets were evil, yet his own peridoo headsets were the cat's meow. Nevermind the fact that other companies had been using them successfully for years (cannondale, klein, etc).
    Well, I've seen several of the newer versions of this integrated head set come through for warranties and have seen deformation of the machined surfaces in the head tube itself that has rendered frames useless. Obviously, anything can go bad, but why integrated headsets when they are not necessary. Certainly your reasoning about frame strength is true, but again, what question is that answering that requires an integrated head set? You could do the same with a conventional headset, and avoid potential problems and have more choices in head sets, no?

    And as for Klein and Cannondale, they are vastly different and even more proprietary than what we are discussing already. Nevermind the engineering "success".



    I haven't noticed any others spec'ing a 72.5 head angle. Most of the brands who thought to go with a steeper head angle only went 1 degree steeper than standard NORBA XC (71) head angles.
    Intense 29"er, 73 degree head angle, Salsa Mamasita, 73 degree head angle. Besides, you know as well as I do that there's more to it than just the head angle.
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  29. #29
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    Again it boils down to WHICH intergrated headset... zerostack uses pressed in cups just like conventional headsets, either way, improperly assembling/installing any kind of headset can lead to the damage you described being done to a frame. Ride a conventional headset loose for awhile and you can poach the headtube nicely. As to mass produced frames... why does this make the frame any lower quality? Giant mass produces and uses ZeroStack headtubes on all their bikes. Santa Cruz bikes are mass produced. Ellsworth frames are mass produced. Niner's are mass-produced.

    As to brake levers and brake weights...

    These are some generic (read CHEAP) taiwanese made mechanicals sold under a brand name called Stop'N'Go... they RETAIL $40cdn per wheel (that's what, 1/4 the price of BB7s ?!?) They stop just as well (if matched to brake levers with the correct leverage ratio of course...the basic non-adjustable avid v-brake levers work well with them). They're weighed with all hardware, front and rear models, uncut housing and cables. Notice the weight of the things is less than the BB7s.

    <img src="http://yoda.densan.ca/kmr/bikes/stopngof.jpg">
    <img src="http://yoda.densan.ca/kmr/bikes/stopngor.jpg">

    As to levers... my kooka's are on a bike, but I do have a pic of another light set of levers...
    Technogen TechLite V-levers.

    <img src="http://yoda.densan.ca/kmr/bikes/techlite.jpg">

    Also I have a couple sets of these Avid clones which work GREAT with the SNG discs and cost me $7/pair. If you take one of these, and add it to either the front or rear weight above, you're ending up 438 to 448g.

    <img src="http://yoda.densan.ca/kmr/bikes/babaclevers.jpg">

    In any case, Avid has never been particularly good at making light levers that didn't cost an awful lot. And if we're strictly talking canti-friendly... which are great if you're running discs like the Rockshox/Amp discs (which were built for a canti-compatible lever, not a v-compatible one) or the Avid BBs for road bikes then you should look at these tektro levers, which are 140g/pair can be had new off ebay still NOS for $29.99US.

    <img src="http://yoda.densan.ca/kmr/bikes/tektro.jpg">
    Last edited by DeeEight; 01-22-2007 at 09:52 PM.
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  30. #30
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    Dee8, you are only proving my point. Generically, hydraulics are lighter than mechanicals. Perhaps some combination of mechanical configuration exists that could be lighter than heavy hydraulics, but then again, some of the new hydros are really damned light. The Marta SL, for example, complete front system is an ounce lighter than the front rotor/caliper set you have in your photo.


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  31. #31
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    I'm aware that generally hydraulics are lighter, but ONLY when you throw sh!tloads of dollars at the problem. Marta SL and Formula OROs and whatever else are NOT very affordable for a lot of riders. And its when you compare things like your basic Louise XC and Deore XT hydraulic disc setups you begin to see that mechanicals still have an advantage.
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    Nine Solo Picture

    Not sure if I was suppose to post this yet but here it is. I hope the picture looks allright it looks kind of funky since I resized it.
    Enjoy
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob M.
    Not sure if I was suppose to post this yet but here it is. I hope the picture looks allright it looks kind of funky since I resized it.
    Enjoy
    Looks great Rob. I dig the color. Hope all's well out in Idaho?

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    Felt's site appears to be updated with a new, lower weight for the SS...

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    Frame only?

    Any word on whether these will be available as a frame only?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by slim_pickens
    Any word on whether these will be available as a frame only?
    There are no plans for selling a frame only for 2007. Although I have told them I think it would be a good thing to sell the Solo as a frame only. What do you think? Think they should sell the geared as a frame only also?

  37. #37
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    No shipping for France ...

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob M.
    There are no plans for selling a frame only for 2007. Although I have told them I think it would be a good thing to sell the Solo as a frame only. What do you think? Think they should sell the geared as a frame only also?
    Absolutely! They'd have one of two available aluminum frames with normal, functional BB and dropouts.

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