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  1. #1
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    Idea! What tire is this? Why don't we have more "PADDLE" design tires?

    What tire is this? Why don't we have more "PADDLE" design tires?-tire1.jpgHello all Fatties,
    Which tire are those on the left of the second row?
    I am also wondering why I cannot find more paddle type design tires. I think there is a missing sector of tread design. I have read about the power output challenge of spinning a tire like that but a 1/2in to even 3/4 of tread should be quite manageable. I have a design in mind and will post it when I am done.

    My purpose of this thread is to explore the idea of creating the "ideal paddle tire" and I excitedly welcome all ideas, designs and musings that any of you are willing to share.

    Thanks,
    Chris

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by SE F@R View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tire1.jpg 
Views:	135 
Size:	31.7 KB 
ID:	1206828Hello all Fatties,
    Which tire are those on the left of the second row?
    I am also wondering why I cannot find more paddle type design tires. I think there is a missing sector of tread design. I have read about the power output challenge of spinning a tire like that but a 1/2in to even 3/4 of tread should be quite manageable. I have a design in mind and will post it when I am done.

    My purpose of this thread is to explore the idea of creating the "ideal paddle tire" and I excitedly welcome all ideas, designs and musings that any of you are willing to share.

    Thanks,
    Chris
    Not those, but I've been rolling on these (CST Roly-Polys)

    Paddle tires definitely have a place in fat bike riding IMHO. I put them on in the spring when things are a bit wet around here.

    Other than the weight penalty of running wire bead low TPI, they've been great. Probably not as good a trail tire as Minions, but a good all-arounder. As expected, they're awesome on anything really loose and this particular tread has low rolling resistance on hard pack where the traction of bigger, wider spaced lugs is unnecessary.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What tire is this? Why don't we have more "PADDLE" design tires?-21230998_1393090557476749_8465097995785145698_n.jpg  


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SE F@R View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tire1.jpg 
Views:	135 
Size:	31.7 KB 
ID:	1206828Hello all Fatties,
    Which tire are those on the left of the second row?
    I am also wondering why I cannot find more paddle type design tires. I think there is a missing sector of tread design. I have read about the power output challenge of spinning a tire like that but a 1/2in to even 3/4 of tread should be quite manageable. I have a design in mind and will post it when I am done.

    My purpose of this thread is to explore the idea of creating the "ideal paddle tire" and I excitedly welcome all ideas, designs and musings that any of you are willing to share.

    Thanks,
    Chris
    think those might be the original surly fat tire: the endomorph.

    They were not so great on trails but probably awesome in snow. I used them on the trails and they really had odd steering characteristics.

  4. #4
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    I hear you, but as great as a true sandpaddle might be, the tire builders are in business, and I'm guessing they don't believe they can sell enough paddles, to justify the means of producing one. They can make a multi-use tire say with semi paddles, and various knobs that works well in sand, but can also work well in dirt and gravel, and snow. They probably will sell a lot more of the all around tread verses the true paddle. You have to ask yourself if you are willing to pay say $500 for a specific use tire so it's worth it for the manufacturer?

  5. #5
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    Mr Horse, that tire is def more along the lines of what I need here in New Mexico.

    Rockcrusher, Endomorph huh, know of it from reading but never saw it. I'll google it...
    Yep that is correct!

    My design is 3 solid lines of tread each (maybe) 3/8 to 1/2in wide, same for height. one in the center and two on each extreme outer side tread. With solid straight cross sectional lines of tread (same width and height as other tread) every 4 or so inches.

    A simple enough concept that I would love to test. Yes, it sounds like it could be heavy but you can vary the tread thickness and height to find the sweet spot.

    Every scenario of terrain I think of seems to be covered with this design, cornering grip and straight line grip and good smooth rolling.

  6. #6
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    Those tires are Endomorphs. They worked OK in sand and not at all in most types of snow.

  7. #7
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    Why no paddler tires nowadays? Because they sucked for nearly every kind of riding.

    Before you design a paddle tire, you might want to try one of these designs from the past, it would certainly be illuminating.

    I'm sure you could find a used one for free.

    Quote Originally Posted by SE F@R View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tire1.jpg 
Views:	135 
Size:	31.7 KB 
ID:	1206828Hello all Fatties,
    Which tire are those on the left of the second row?
    I am also wondering why I cannot find more paddle type design tires. I think there is a missing sector of tread design. I have read about the power output challenge of spinning a tire like that but a 1/2in to even 3/4 of tread should be quite manageable. I have a design in mind and will post it when I am done.

    My purpose of this thread is to explore the idea of creating the "ideal paddle tire" and I excitedly welcome all ideas, designs and musings that any of you are willing to share.

    Thanks,
    Chris
    Lrg GG Pedalhead 29
    XMed GG Smash 29
    Lrg Devinci Hendrix 27+
    Med Specialize Levo FSR 27+ (wife)

  8. #8
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    Endos worked pretty good on hardpacked snow, as long as you didn't need to turn.
    Latitude 61

  9. #9
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    Nurse Ben, If I could find one like I described in post #5, I would very happily try it. I can visibly see the faults in the designs I have seen, so I am sure they had shortcomings/compromises.

  10. #10
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    l_l_l
    l_l_l
    l_l_l
    l_l_l
    l_l_l

    Essentially that design above, minus the spaces, totally solid. I may try to make a crude overlay.

  11. #11
    EAT MORE GRIME
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    you mean endomorphs ?

    those things SUCKED ARSE in everything. truly a horrible tire.

    hard to steer in anything, road, dirt, rock. and grip sucked. no grip.

    #1 worst tire on earth. steered like a bus with broken tie rods

    and

    we don't have paddle tires because unless you have a petrol engine
    and are doing straight line sand drags, paddles suck balls
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  12. #12
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    Endomorphs would be great if the tread was a bit deeper, let’s say 8mm or so, and with a slightly rounder carcass profile.
    one by nine works just fine but single speed is all ya need
    BTW, it’s called “sarcasm”; you’re soaking in it!

  13. #13
    All fat, all the time.
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    Descent in sand, that's aboutit.

  14. #14
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    my we've come along way such that people no longer recognize Endomorphs.

  15. #15
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    Paddle tires work on the principle of reaction, not traction. One pound of sand thrown rearward, is one pound of force forward. As 127.0.01 alluded to, you need horsepower to utilize that principle.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SE F@R View Post
    Mr Horse, that tire is def more along the lines of what I need here in New Mexico.

    Rockcrusher, Endomorph huh, know of it from reading but never saw it. I'll google it...
    Yep that is correct!

    My design is 3 solid lines of tread each (maybe) 3/8 to 1/2in wide, same for height. one in the center and two on each extreme outer side tread. With solid straight cross sectional lines of tread (same width and height as other tread) every 4 or so inches.

    A simple enough concept that I would love to test. Yes, it sounds like it could be heavy but you can vary the tread thickness and height to find the sweet spot.

    Every scenario of terrain I think of seems to be covered with this design, cornering grip and straight line grip and good smooth rolling.
    You can find them from time to time on ebay. (just checked, there are a pair of 120 TPI tires for sale)

    I can't opine on Endomorphs, but this particular tread works well on snow in my experience...much better than minions.

    The thing that I like most about them is that they don't tear thru crust as easily as square lugs. The handling qualities are more than adequate, nothing weird about them at all.

    There was a fat bike article on Pinkbike a few months ago, and one of the riders featured (a shop owner) had them on his bike. That's the only other place I've ever seen them.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by KThaxton View Post
    Paddle tires work on the principle of reaction, not traction. One pound of sand thrown rearward, is one pound of force forward. As 127.0.01 alluded to, you need horsepower to utilize that principle.
    Funny but not true at all. Here is the actual principle of operation and you DO NOT need a motor for it to work. Your statement is applicable to water paddles but you do not meed a motor for that function either.
    " The paddle provides superior traction in the sand, in part, because the paddles dig into the sand and push off from the buried sand, not just the surface."


    Just so everyone understands, I do not want the Endomorphs. I would like a better design like I highlighted in post #5 and #10 and to discuss what you guys think the limitation/compromise of that design might be, if any. As I said, Every scenario of terrain I think of seems to be compatible with this design, cornering grip and straight line grip and good smooth rolling.

  18. #18
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    Paddle tires are for tractors

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

  19. #19
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SE F@R View Post
    Funny but not true at all. Here is the actual principle of operation and you DO NOT need a motor for it to work. Your statement is applicable to water paddles but you do not meed a motor for that function either.
    " The paddle provides superior traction in the sand, in part, because the paddles dig into the sand and push off from the buried sand, not just the surface."


    Just so everyone understands, I do not want the Endomorphs. I would like a better design like I highlighted in post #5 and #10 and to discuss what you guys think the limitation/compromise of that design might be, if any. As I said, Every scenario of terrain I think of seems to be compatible with this design, cornering grip and straight line grip and good smooth rolling.
    no

    human powered bikes and paddle tires is like trying to wrestle a greased pig while breathing thru a straw

    you need to actually ride some tires and not judge them by how 'brotastic it looks' in pictures'

    'plain old knobs' works great in everything, like the hodag for just one example

    limitations are significant:
    you may have traction but putting energy into forward motion vs deforming the tire, let alone self-steering and wandering, you know pretty quick paddles will make you cry for momma. every last stolen watt is noticeable when -you- are the engine...in motorsports it doesn't matter how much they suck you can throttle thru it.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  21. #21
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    I got into fat bikes right after Endomorphs fell out of style. Never got to try one but it doesn't look like a tire I'd be interested in.
    My first tires were Bud and Lou on Clownshoes. Lou is a very aggressive tire that one might consider a paddle of sorts because of the center knobs. I quickly learned it was good for snow and not sand or singletrack. Lots of drag.
    I kept Bud on the front but switched the rear to a 4.8 Surly Knard. Tire is great on singletrack and sand. I only switch back to Lou on the rear when the snow flies.
    I like turtles

  22. #22
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    Agreed.

    Ride a bunch of tires and learn what works best for your needs.

    Designing a tire, producing it, then selling it, from memory it will cost 20-30k for mold fabrication anf production with a minimum order of 200 pieces. You might want to talk with Walt, he commissioned a tire from Vee Tire.

    Based on that last diagram I’d start with a Minion FBR 4.8

    Designing a tire based on what works on an ORV, four wheels vs two, pedal vs motor driven, those uses are not comparable. The Endomorph is an example of where out of the box thinking failed.

    Look at the current crop of fat bike tires and learn what is popular and why. The best test of a tire is what sells, and continues to sell.

    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    no

    human powered bikes and paddle tires is like trying to wrestle a greased pig while breathing thru a straw

    you need to actually ride some tires and not judge them by how 'brotastic it looks' in pictures'

    'plain old knobs' works great in everything, like the hodag for just one example

    limitations are significant:
    you may have traction but putting energy into forward motion vs deforming the tire, let alone self-steering and wandering, you know pretty quick paddles will make you cry for momma. every last stolen watt is noticeable when -you- are the engine...in motorsports it doesn't matter how much they suck you can throttle thru it.
    Lrg GG Pedalhead 29
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  23. #23
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    Kenda Juggernaut is sort of a paddle style.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Kenda Juggernaut is sort of a paddle style.
    And, at least for me, has the worst "self steer" of any tire I've ever used. Quite a bit sketchier than the Endo. It works in the rear as a summer tire though.
    Latitude 61

  25. #25
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    Running a 4.0 pro in the rear myself. Never again.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SE F@R View Post
    l_l_l
    l_l_l
    l_l_l
    l_l_l
    l_l_l

    Essentially that design above, minus the spaces, totally solid. I may try to make a crude overlay.
    So in essence it will be an shaped like an E sideways. It may be okay for dry sand, but I do not see it shedding snow or mud. It will quickly become a caked up, heavy, slick.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SE F@R View Post
    I would like a better design...
    We are at point now where better designs have already been done.

  28. #28
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    BTW, on what vehicle does one find a paddle tire on a non-drive wheel? I cannot think of one. Sand rails, sand climbing dirt bikes, even fat bikes with front/rear specific tires do not use paddle type lugs on the front.

  29. #29
    turtles make me hot
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    It made absolutely zero sense to me when Salsa came out with the original Blackborrow and put Lou on both ends.
    I like turtles

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