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  1. #1
    Laramie, Wyoming
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    Turnagain Rims Tubeless??????

    I just got my new Borealis and since they don't have the Carbondale rims, they gave me these Turnagain rims. I can't say I'm a happy camper as watching Flynn put a set of Bud and Lou tires on the Carbondale rims for a friend of mine is what convinced me to get a new bike.

    The question, has anyone been successful at going tubeless on these rims?

    And if so, what method did you succeed with?

  2. #2
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    Bump

    I'm wondering if anyone has successfully set these up tubeless also and how they did it.

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    Here's a rough outline.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger View Post
    Bump

    I'm wondering if anyone has successfully set these up tubeless also and how they did it.
    1) Secure the rimstrip (we use 12 gram Tyvek strips instead of 80g standard rimstrips) to the rim with tape.
    2) Two loops of 1'' wide foam tape along each rim wall.
    3) 5 or 6 loops of Gladpack or similar plastic wrap.
    4) Install tire and pour in some Stan's solution
    5)Pull the sidewalls outwards onto the foam tape.
    6)Inflate with any pump you have handy, like a mini pump.
    7) Trim off excess plastic.
    7) Ride

    This method makes for easier tubeless setup than on my tubeless ready carbon rims.
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  5. #5
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    Thanks
    This was helpful.
    I did a variation of this and after few attempts it did work. Usually I wouldn't bother to try and get a rim with no bead lock to work, but the goat heads in my area are really terrible.

  6. #6
    Oslo, Norway
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    Sounds good!
    Inflating the tires with this setup on our 103mm rims is way easier than on my tubeless ready bead lock type 80mm carbon rims, as it easily inflates with a minipump out on the trail, while the bead lock type requires a burst of air in order for the bead to pop into place on the carbon rims-
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  7. #7
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    After failing with various tape set ups that I have used with other rims, a split 24" tube over the rim strip worked perfectly. Rode 90 miles today with no air loss.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlh View Post
    After failing with various tape set ups that I have used with other rims, a split 24" tube over the rim strip worked perfectly. Rode 90 miles today with no air loss.
    Nice, gonna give this a try would love to get back to tubeless!! Do you know what kind of pressure you are running??

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    I've had it down to 6psi for the mixed snow/dirt rides I have been doing. I'll run it until my sidewalls wrinkle this weekend, and let you know how it goes. FWIW- I only weigh about 150lbs.

  10. #10
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    john, you might be 150 pounds with full winter gear on that is soaking wet.

  11. #11
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    ^is this the only solution? Split tube or a bunch of foam/ plastic wrap? I was hoping they'd be easier to set up or at least similar to Rolling Darryls. I've tried doing my standard method (tape, install tire with tube, pop one side and pull tube out, put valve in, etc), but the beads won't stay set at all. Kind of a bummer.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  12. #12
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    Even the 103 version that we run is incredibly easy to set up tubeless with the foam tape/plastic wrap method. I've run them down to 2.5psi without any issue, and I run JumBo Jim 4.8s tubeless without latex solution at the moment, with minimal loss of pressure.
    Foam tape/wrap weighs barely 40g, so I would guess that you save at least 1lb off the wheelset vs. a split tube.
    What is the weight of the 24x2.75 split tubes that folks use?

    In addition, run a Tyvek strip instead of a stock nylon rimstrip and loop off another 1/4lb.
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    The 24" Qtubes split tube over the rim strip seems to be the best solution. I've got 3,000 miles on this set up since my initial post, and while it is difficult to set up, it has been quite reliable at ultra low snow riding pressure. I put on my Bud & Lou a couple weeks ago, and they were much harder to install than the Dillinger 4s. It took me and four other guys at my local shop to each pull a section of the bead in place as one guy shot air in with the compressor. Plenty of Stans coating the bead helped quite a bit. I hate these rims for this reason, but they have been reliable.

  14. #14
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    Espen, are you using actual Turnagain rims? The first generation FR80s are loads harder to run tubeless than any other rim I have ever set up. I know you are an industry insider, but the new tubeless ready Turnagains are still not quite ready for the general public.

  15. #15
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    Unfortunately these do not go tubeless very easily. I tried foam and tape and it worked, but was a huge hassle and didn't hold up at low pressures. Sounds like split tube is the best approach. I've switched to tubes for now and will replace these rims eventually to a tubeless compatible pair. It is a little annoying to have a high end bike speced with rims that aren't tubeless, but I believe this will be changed soon if it hasn't already. The new Turnagain rims should work really well - at least that's what I've heard from people that are using them. I think the Sun Mulefut would also be a good alternative.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbasinger View Post
    Unfortunately these do not go tubeless very easily. I tried foam and tape and it worked, but was a huge hassle and didn't hold up at low pressures. Sounds like split tube is the best approach. I've switched to tubes for now and will replace these rims eventually to a tubeless compatible pair. It is a little annoying to have a high end bike speced with rims that aren't tubeless, but I believe this will be changed soon if it hasn't already. The new Turnagain rims should work really well - at least that's what I've heard from people that are using them. I think the Sun Mulefut would also be a good alternative.
    The Mulefut sets up tubeless super easy. So easy I got er did on the first go round.

  17. #17
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    Split tube method was a cinch as compared to tape or other methods. These rims aren't close to what is needed for tubeless. The Clownshoes and RD's have much better tire engagement.

    I may bond the tire to the split tube flange using an instant adhesive to make it burp proof depending on how good/bad the idea works. So far so good. Only real fear is spining the tire on the wheel when the grip comes back after the winter.

    I'm very surprised that in 2015 ANY Fatbikes are coming with these profiles for wheels. Surly must have put all their customers over a barrel with inventory allotments. Borealis, Norco, 9Zero7 all have their house brand wheels on these shitty Weinmann rims.
    Todd

  18. #18
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    I was most upset when I realized my echo turnagrin to a frown rims were not gonna play nicely tubless. After several fails at mounting, I went with light 2.4-2.75 tubes. Put 4 oz. Of orange seal in the tube. Working great for stopping flats here in the AZ. Deserts. Until I change rims, this seems like a fairly lightweight alternative.
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by blockphi View Post
    The Mulefut sets up tubeless super easy. So easy I got er did on the first go round.
    What method did you use?

    Getting ready to convert my Mulefuts and debating tyvec vs gorilla vs saran, ect.

  20. #20
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    My local shop is being especially good to me and will be swapping our my FR 80 rims with a set of the new FR 100s when they are available. It seems that their release keeps getting pushed back. I ordered my Yampa in late October, and was initially told that it may come with the new tubeless-ready rims, then it became a couple more weeks, a couple more, and eventually told by Borealis that it would be December. Borealis then told my shop that it would be early in January, then told them mid January. My shop left a message with Borealis today to see if they will be shipping soon.

    Aside from the lousy rims, I love the bike, but would have been much smarter to order a Yampa frameset or gone with the HED upgrade. If I get a chance to run the TR Turnagains I will post a review.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGHORN LEW View Post
    I was most upset when I realized my echo turnagrin to a frown rims were not gonna play nicely tubless..
    Exactly! I am surprised a high end bike would come with rims that can't be easily made tubeless. i had my maiden voyage today on my Echo and it is a super sweet bike HOWEVER I got a flat from a thorn in my front tire (that I had to put a tube in) and my f'in tire started to FALL off the rim! Thank god I wasn't going down a technical downhill section or anything cause I could of gotten seriously injured. Why no bead lock on these things????

  22. #22
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    ^ the newer rims are supposed to be tubeless, but for those with the older rims, it's a total suck. I just assumed that Borealis/ Turnagain was at the forefront on things, but not having tubeless compatible rims/ no bead lock is just lame-o.
    "There are two kinds of mountain bikers in the world: those who are faster than me, and me."

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlh View Post
    The 24" Qtubes split tube over the rim strip seems to be the best solution. I've got 3,000 miles on this set up since my initial post, and while it is difficult to set up, it has been quite reliable at ultra low snow riding pressure. I put on my Bud & Lou a couple weeks ago, and they were much harder to install than the Dillinger 4s. It took me and four other guys at my local shop to each pull a section of the bead in place as one guy shot air in with the compressor. Plenty of Stans coating the bead helped quite a bit. I hate these rims for this reason, but they have been reliable.
    They stopped being reliable today. The rear went flat, put in my spare Q-DH tube, but to loose fit of the Lou at low pressure caused the tire to move around and shear off the stem of my only spare. Had a nice ride out on my rim, then hitchhiked back to town. My new wheels can't get here soon enough. Why in the hell are such great bicycles spec'd with such shitty wheels?

  24. #24
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    Well John, it's almost like this post has come full circle, one year later. Although I don't ever use mine any longer, they are still holding air. GORILLA tape and building up the bead shelf (A LOT) was the only thing that worked to my satisfaction.

    And the guys at Borealis couldn't understand why I was as disappointed as I was, while waiting on my carbons.

    I went up to the Snowies today and rode in very soft snow with temps near 50 degrees and very little air in the tires. I'm glad I'm not still riding those Turnagain rims.

  25. #25
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    I might just relace them with Clownshoes at this point. It's depressing just how heavy the Surly tube I just put in is.

  26. #26
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    The great thing about these rims (we use the 103mm version) is that they are so incredibly easy to set up and run tubeless, even the 103s. Even easier on the 80s that you guys have since the tire will push the beads more against the sides of the rim on a narrower rim.
    I can take a bare rim and make it tubeless ready with less than 40g (1.4oz) of material.
    That is almost 1oz less than the standard rim tape alone.
    Here is the bare minumum that I have run:
    Strip of Tyvek map (cut to 97mm) instead of stock rimstrip: 10g
    Two strips of double stick tape: 5g
    Four loops of cling wrap: 20g
    No latex solution whatsoever: 0g
    Tubeless valve: 4g

    That is 39g (1.4oz)

    That saves 370g per tire or 740g on the bike (that is 1.6lb on the bike) vs. a typical split tube over stock rimstrip.

    The cling wrap is stretched over the rim, so it will create a seal with the beads. Pump it up with a mini pump if you want.
    I run them down to 1psi, like here:



    I think most of the problems stem from trying to use tires with incredibly sloppy beads. They will require use of closed cell foam under the plastic wrap in order to keep the beads tight.
    I have used the tubeless ready Snowshoe XLs and the tubeless ready Jumbo Jim Liteskin 4.8 and now run the latter without any latex solution.

    In order to create an even better seal that will keep air in for longer (as I run w/o sealant), I now run a strip of ultra light (0.5oz) of closed cell foam under the plastic wrap in the full width of the rim.
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    I'd wait on that and see if they can get you a pair of their 100mm rims. I'm getting mine settled tubeless right now. Really solid bead lock.

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    Espen, thanks for sharing your set up, but we are discussing the FR80 rims, as the new tubeless-ready version does not appear to be available on the retail market yet (Tri-tele, is this correct?). Proper tubeless-ready rims should require nothing more than a quick wrap of tape, and are useless to me if they can't hold a Bud/Lou in place.

  29. #29
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    The one that I'm talking about is the non tubeless ready 103mm, in other words, same profile as the FR80, just close to an inch wider (so in theory more challenging to set up tubeless)

    Remember that Bud/Lou do not have tubeless ready beads, so even on a proper tubeless ready rim, they might require additional work.
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  30. #30
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    I wasn't aware that there was ever a 103mm Turnagain released. They are certainly not available in the states. I've had great success using Bud & Lou tires tubeless on many other models of rims with only tape. Nates, Dillingers, Vanhelgas, and others are all pretty difficult on the FR80 rims.

    I'll try your method out until my new wheels get here. Thanks!

  31. #31
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    The 103s that we use on our bikes are not marketed by Turnagain, but they come from the same manufacturer and is just a different width version of the same base rim.
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    There are a few of the 100mm rims in the US now. Don't think they have seen any of the NEW 80s in yet.

    I am still playing with the best method to seal the 100mm rims, but the bead lock is ROCK solid. Like have to stand on tire to get it off or have serious meat hook mitts to get the job done.

    None of this foamy tapey stuff needed.

  33. #33
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    Yep, the new 100mm tubeless ready one sounds very promising!
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    The great thing about these rims (we use the 103mm version) is that they are so incredibly easy to set up and run tubeless, even the 103s. Even easier on the 80s that you guys have since the tire will push the beads more against the sides of the rim on a narrower rim.
    I can take a bare rim and make it tubeless ready with less than 40g (1.4oz) of material.
    That is almost 1oz less than the standard rim tape alone.
    Here is the bare minumum that I have run:
    Strip of Tyvek map (cut to 97mm) instead of stock rimstrip: 10g
    Two strips of double stick tape: 5g
    Four loops of cling wrap: 20g
    No latex solution whatsoever: 0g
    Tubeless valve: 4g

    That is 39g (1.4oz)

    That saves 370g per tire or 740g on the bike (that is 1.6lb on the bike) vs. a typical split tube over stock rimstrip.

    The cling wrap is stretched over the rim, so it will create a seal with the beads. Pump it up with a mini pump if you want.
    I run them down to 1psi, like here:



    I think most of the problems stem from trying to use tires with incredibly sloppy beads. They will require use of closed cell foam under the plastic wrap in order to keep the beads tight.
    I have used the tubeless ready Snowshoe XLs and the tubeless ready Jumbo Jim Liteskin 4.8 and now run the latter without any latex solution.

    In order to create an even better seal that will keep air in for longer (as I run w/o sealant), I now run a strip of ultra light (0.5oz) of closed cell foam under the plastic wrap in the full width of the rim.
    Hats off to you, Espen! The Lou aired up immediately with this method. Holding air with no sealant at all, but I'll add a bit for puncture protection. This could very well be my favorite ghetto tubeless method if my performance results are as good as yours.

  35. #35
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    Excellent
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    ^ the newer rims are supposed to be tubeless, but for those with the older rims, it's a total suck. I just assumed that Borealis/ Turnagain was at the forefront on things, but not having tubeless compatible rims/ no bead lock is just lame-o.
    Agreed!
    What should happen is Borealis should give their disappointed customers a good faith deal where the new rims are real cheap for us to buy. I mean at least half price! A partial recall of sorts. Then at least it would help with the cost/hassle of rebuilding my wheels. I totally planned to be tubless, and had no idea there would be problems!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGHORN LEW View Post
    Agreed!
    What should happen is Borealis should give their disappointed customers a good faith deal where the new rims are real cheap for us to buy. I mean at least half price! A partial recall of sorts. Then at least it would help with the cost/hassle of rebuilding my wheels. I totally planned to be tubless, and had no idea there would be problems!
    As much as I would like for this to happen, I don't think that it is appropriate for anyone to feel that Borealis needs to do this. They never marketed the first generation rims as tubeless, I just figured that they wouldn't much harder to set up than anything else I had done in the past.

    Espen's saran wrap method aired up right away, but has a loose enough fit with the Lou, that it has leaked through the day. Foam under the wrap, or under a split tube is going to be my last effort until the Jumbo Jims and Juggarnauts I ordered arrive.

  38. #38
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    I agree with John. They weren't advertised as tubeless rims.

    It was unfortunate that these rims were made with no thought about people wanting to explore tubeless options and then put on such a high end bike but they were probably thinking that this would help fuel their carbon rim sales.

  39. #39
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    Boy am I glad that I declined a pair of FR80's free of charge from the LBS. I looked at 'em and politely declined since they did not have the UST style bead seat. And
    I too am a bean pole that weighs in @160 so running 2.5-3 in the front & 3.5-4 in
    the rear is going to happen frequently with my bike living in the Rocky Mountains.

    Bean poles have fewer pump strokes to attain riding pressure!

  40. #40
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    Rune, I'm even more pole shaped, but I run these (actually the even less tubeless friendly 103mm width) down to what must be around 1psi (I let air out for 20-25s after hitting 3.0psi that is the minimum on the gauge) with the super easy and superlight setup outlined above.
    Yes, a true tubeless shape will be preferred in the future, but these are still darn easy to run tubeless at ridiclulously low pressures.
    Extremely easy with tubeless ready beads like Vee and Schwalbe, and still a snap with some extra foam tape on the bead shelf if one runs sloppy bead non tubeless stuff as well.
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  41. #41
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    Fair enough, Espen. At the time it didn't look as though it would be reliable with an FR80
    so I chose the polished RD's stuck a surly strip on 'em wrapped each side with
    one pass of 1" wide gorilla tape. Add to the recipe a Bud & a Lou. Bake for 30 minutes @ oh, oops!
    I will be on the lookout for the new Turnagain for the summer rubber to reside on.

  42. #42
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    That is not a bad choice, as the RD and CS have an excellent bead lock.
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  43. #43
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    Chris from Borealis/Turnagain here.

    I just wanted to clear up a few things here for those who are curious.

    The new tubeless ready 100mm rims are in stock but we are still waiting on the last piece of our tubeless kit to show up before doing the press release on them. We have shipped a couple sets out so far with the customers knowing they will not have the "proper" tubeless kit. That should not be far out at all but I do not have exact dates.

    Tubeless 80's are coming as well but there is no solid date when they will be available just yet.

    I would also like to add we tried going with 103mm rims in testing but there simply was not enough clearance for us to be comfortable with it (any mud/snow build up would be a problem) and ended up going just slightly less than 100mm but set up tubeless the tire profile/width is very similar to what you would see with a clown shoe.

    I will say we are very happy with how these have handled in our testing of both sample and the final production run and even though it took longer to get them out than we had hoped we wanted to make sure they were very dialed before releasing them. I weigh a bit over 200lbs and have run them as low as 4psi in the snow with bud/lou combo and have yet to burp/roll/spin a tire on the rim.

    Thanks to everyone for your patience!
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    Chris, thanks for chiming in here. I'm curious if the tubeless kit is a specific rim strip, or if these rims seal with tape?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlh View Post
    Chris, thanks for chiming in here. I'm curious if the tubeless kit is a specific rim strip, or if these rims seal with tape?
    No problem!

    In short, there will be a rim strip similar to current Turnagain rim strips to cover the cut outs and then a layer of 95mm wide tape similar to most tubeless tapes on the market to actually handle sealing the spoke bed. We are currently working on a video that will show how to set our new FTD rims up tubeless along with some other tricks for things like how to inflate stubborn tires and how to break the bead with no tools as we purposely designed them with a relatively tight bead so they will not burp at extremely low pressures.

    We do have our specific tape for these rims that has worked very well for us but in a pinch you could make something like gorilla tape work, it will just be a fair bit heavier and more of a pain to get set up.
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    Sounds like a nice set up for switching tires with as little hassle as a regular mtb set up. Hope you can get some to Wyoming soon!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlh View Post
    Sounds like a nice set up for switching tires with as little hassle as a regular mtb set up. Hope you can get some to Wyoming soon!
    Do you mean, before winter, John?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlh View Post
    Sounds like a nice set up for switching tires with as little hassle as a regular mtb set up. Hope you can get some to Wyoming soon!
    Thanks for the kind words!

    Obviously I am biased but I liked them enough that after setting up the first few sets from the production run I bought a personal set for my Echo!

    Keep an eye on the Borealis and Turnagain facebook pages, we should post something on there once everything is 100% in, as well as sending out a press release to dealers.
    Head Wheel Builder at Borealis Fat Bikes and Turnagain Components

    Chris Murray Wheel Works

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    Do you mean, before winter, John?
    Are you talking about receiving rims before the end of this winter, or are you referring to changing tires before the start of the winter (e.g., taking off Husker Du, putting on Bud & Lou)?

    As far as getting new wheels before May, I am a bit jaded at this point, but still trying to be positive.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriskmurray View Post
    Thanks for the kind words!

    Obviously I am biased but I liked them enough that after setting up the first few sets from the production run I bought a personal set for my Echo!

    Keep an eye on the Borealis and Turnagain facebook pages, we should post something on there once everything is 100% in, as well as sending out a press release to dealers.
    Chris, Can you tell me how low I can go with the PSIs on these rims? I am afraid to go any lower than 8 PSIs for fear the tire will fall off. I am the one that posted above that I just got a brand new Echo and on my maiden voyage I got a thorn in my tube and the tire started to fall off. I have since slimed my tubes....thanks

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