Tubeless vs tubes??

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  • 11-30-2012
    EPcycles
    Tubeless vs tubes??
    I've ridden tubeless and tubed fat on a plethora of tire and rim combinations over the past few years and I'm interested in other peoples comparative experiences who have experience with both. Good or bad.

    Personally, at this point I'm leaning tubeless since there is the issue of friction between the tube and tire which seems to be rarely discussed. To me, that spells greater inefficiency to sealant. Which is the lesser of evils?
  • 12-01-2012
    Shark
    Way less flats with tubeless here. even huge sticks lodged in tire, with tubeless I rode up to 10 miles, with tube, flat in seconds.
  • 12-01-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    I liken tubed riding to riding in soft dirt as opposed to hard pack. It just seems to feel sluggish. Same thing I noticed with skinny tires, but on a larger scale.

    I run tubeless and am quite content. No burps, no slipping tires, all seems right with the world.

    And yes, all the normal benefits of tubeless, less weight, fewer if any flats etc, still hold ture too.
  • 12-01-2012
    dvo1
    Running a tubeless front right now, had 3psi and rode a trail with a lot of rocks never had a problem other then fast cornering, I am going to switch the rear after we get some real cold to see if the tubeless works at real cold temps.
  • 12-01-2012
    palossweetpea
    Go tubeless
  • 12-01-2012
    EricD701
    I went tubeless this season and Iím not looking back. With tubes I would have to run higher air pressure = less traction. If I lowered the pressure to the point I got good traction I would wind up getting pinch flats.
    Now I get great traction the trails I ride have lots of rocks and roots and I havenít had a single flat. And I ride just about everyday.
  • 12-01-2012
    PretendGentleman
    fewer flats is my main reason. I used to get 1 per ride, but sometimes 2,3, 4, or 5. Super annoying! With tubeless, I've only had problems as a tire gets old. My ust ardent started leaking where the bead is attached to the tire and nothing I would do made any difference and over time it got worse. But still better than tube flats, as it just slowly lost air and I'd repump every 5 miles.

    I had wtb prowler tires and they burped alot when run tubeless, but every other tire has been good.
  • 12-01-2012
    GTR2ebike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I liken tubed riding to riding in soft dirt as opposed to hard pack. It just seems to feel sluggish. Same thing I noticed with skinny tires, but on a larger scale.

    I run tubeless and am quite content. No burps, no slipping tires, all seems right with the world.

    And yes, all the normal benefits of tubeless, less weight, fewer if any flats etc, still hold ture too.

    Not sure about lower weight (except for uma's) but everything else you said sounds good.
  • 12-01-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    Not sure about lower weight (except for uma's) but everything else you said sounds good.

    In my case, I'm running Uma's. But any well executed ghetto tubeless version should be a chunk lighter too, unless you know something I don't???
  • 12-01-2012
    Gruitr1
    So I want to go tubeless!! I'm running Marge lite holy on back with Nate and holy rolling Darryl out front with Bud. Can these combos be set up tubeless?? Is there a good thread/instructions on how to run tubeless?? I run tubeless on my skinny tire bike no problems. Do you have to use the foam strip method/duct tape etc.. to set up fat tires?? Ready to do this on both our Mukluk's but unsure of best method. Any help would be appreciated!! Thanks!!
  • 12-01-2012
    Gruitr1
    2 Attachment(s)
    Wanting to go tubeless on both our bikes!! Is there any long term effects on running these tires tubeless?? Does Stan's effect the tires and what about the cold temps?? Wife and I just bought these Mukluk's.. Loving them!!
  • 12-02-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    Cold hasn't been an issue for me with conventional tubeless, which I've been running for years. Of course, cold being relative, I'm in upstate NY, and we ride regardless, but I don't think we've seen too many rides colder than zero. Maybe a few below, but not by much. Running Stans sealant.

    So far, same thing with the fatties, and the fact that they're larger, is about the only difference, so I can't see any "long term" impacts on tires, wheels what have you.

    Split tube set up works well, for me. You may be able to get away from the foam, but if you don't mind doing it, it'll make the initial airing up go much more smoothly. I ran out of foam and needed to set one up the other day, used bubble wrap (little pinkie finger nail sized bubble type, not the big ping pong ball sized variety), worked fine too.

    I use 24x2.5-2.75 presta tubes. With your choice of bulking agent in place, stretch them on with valve installed. Split up the middle, and lay tube out over the rim edges. Install one tire bead, add a slop of sealant, install other bead, inflate. Much like regular tubeless, you may need to futz a bit, I find whacking the tire with my hand while running in pressurem seems to help getting the beads to seat up.

    A compressor makes the job infinitely easier.

    Duct tape method is not my go to, so someone else would be best for sharing that, but I'm guessing set up is close to the same....
  • 12-02-2012
    Gruitr1
    Couple questions? What is the best foam to use (width, size, etc.) and how do you attach it to the rim? Does it go on before or after the split tube? Never mind, I see in your post you are calling this the bulking agent.. Correct?? And, after you split the tube and "lay tube out over the rim edges" what happens to the excess exposed tube? (trim it off or is it not exposed after the tire is seated? Thanks for the info!!
  • 12-02-2012
    Chris_P
    Could someone explain to me why a tubeless set up is lighter? I'd like to go that route but I've never run it and don't get why it would be lighter. If using the split tube method, is it just the difference in using a lighter tube? In my tire now, there's just a tube. When I here some of the stuff used in a tubeless setup (extra rip strip, tape, foam, sealant .....) I don't get the 'lighter' aspect. Although if it is the case, when paired with some performance benefits, I'd be sold. Thanks.
  • 12-02-2012
    Luthar
    Lighter and More Compliant
    The split tube method described by Mendon is my go to method. The tube mentioned is nearly 1/2 a pound lighter than the standard Fat tube. That being said, the foam weather strip doesn't even register a weight on my scale. So 1 pound saved on the bike. Not a big deal for my 36 lb Moonie, BUT the ride quality is way better, and I can run 6 psi under my 180lbs and ride rocks, roots and gnar all day long.
    Go tubeless.
  • 12-02-2012
    Gruitr1
    Good question Chris!! I wondered the same... Tubeless does give a better feel/footprint as you ride and allows for lower air pressure I believe. You also get the benefit of less flats from thorns, nails, etc.. Sealant will fill small punctures! I'm no expert but these are a few advantages!! Not sure on the weight differences for tube/tubeless??
  • 12-02-2012
    vmaxx4
    The weight issue has been discussed before, and if I remember correctly it was something like this. Compared to the Surly "toobs", the weight savings is there by going tubeless. If you run a lighter tube like the Q-tubes, there is not really a lot of weight savings when you add up the weight of the 24" tube and the weight of the sealant.
    There are light weight tube options and you really need to decide if your terrain/riding style demands tubeless or not, or you want the lower tire pressure and "feel" that you can get from a tubeless set-up. Personally I feel more secure with Toobs when running in the cold winters I get.
  • 12-02-2012
    upmtbyader
    Saving a 1/2 pound on rotating mass per tire is probably comparable with saving 5 pounds of overall bike weight. I have not went tubeless yet on my moonie but a 1/2 pound per wheel is very significant and like others said the feel tubeless is much smoother.
  • 12-02-2012
    Saul Lumikko
    A couple of things to notice when comparing weights:

    1) Even if all the foam, tape, split tubes and whatever tubeless recipe you use ends up weighing as much as a tube, the weight is placed at the radius of the wheel. A tube is further from the axle, so it means more inertia to overcome when accelerating.

    2) Liquid inside the tube is not rotating mass in the same sense as solids (foam, tape, tube...). There is some friction, yes, but it doesn't compare gram for gram. Accelerating a wheel with sealant inside is easier compared to a setup of the same weight without sealant.

    Right now I have a Schwalbe SV 13F tube in one tire and the Surly toob in the other. Weights are 185 grams and 440 g (weighed) respectively for each. I'm probably going to try out tubeless, but if it doesn't work out for me I'll happily go back to SV 13F's in each end.
  • 12-02-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gruitr1 View Post
    Couple questions? What is the best foam to use (width, size, etc.) and how do you attach it to the rim? Does it go on before or after the split tube? Never mind, I see in your post you are calling this the bulking agent.. Correct?? And, after you split the tube and "lay tube out over the rim edges" what happens to the excess exposed tube? (trim it off or is it not exposed after the tire is seated? Thanks for the info!!

    I use white closed cell foam that comes in sheets, perhaps 1/8" thick. Doesn't much matter, you just want light, and closed cell. Open cell will absorb water etc....

    Cut to slightly less than rim width, no rocket science there either.

    Goes under the split tube.

    Yes, once the tire is in place and inflated just trim off the excess flappage.

    That's the other thing in all this weight talk. You remove a third or more, of an already smaller diameter tube, so really, compared to a Surly fat tube, it's minimal. I don't add a ton of sealant either, about the same amount as a skinny tire set up. Surlys tires seem to be pretty well "rubbered". Once set up, they seem to just be good, not nearly the screwing around and sealing of side walls etc that seems to happen with skinnier tires.
  • 12-02-2012
    Saul Lumikko
    Regarding trimming the "flappage" of a split tube rim strip, does it make changing tires more difficult? I wouldn't want to buy and split a new tube everytime I have taken the tire off to check on sealant, but I can live with a bit of excess rubber if it makes things easier.

    On a side note, I got neg repped for my previous post with a comment "spoken like a true believer", as if simple physics was a question of belief. :D
  • 12-02-2012
    aeronca7ccm
    are there any negatives to not trimming the "flapage"?
  • 12-02-2012
    EPcycles
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by aeronca7ccm View Post
    are there any negatives to not trimming the "flapage"?

    Just looks and a few grams of extra weight.
  • 12-03-2012
    Luthar
    It does make changing/checking tires hard. I have replaced the split tube for ease, but it can be done,
    not likely trailside though.
  • 12-03-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    A nice tight trim will make it a bit trickier to change a tire in three minutes, sure. What I've found is, they tend to form into place a bit. and if you take the time to go around and break the bond between tire bead and tube on both sides, then remove the tire, they tend to stay pretty much in place. Then careful tire installation, followed by using a thin screw driver to slide stuck under tube edges back into place, and the whole thing adds a few minutes to the procedure, not too bad.

    And no, nothing beyond looks and the extra weight.

    Pointless neg rep, it's the new anonymous web cruising emo kid's passive aggressive outlet... :rolleyes:

    I've gotten a few too, usually for stuff that just makes you go, huh??? :confused:
  • 12-03-2012
    ozzybmx
    Theres someone who trolls the FatBike forum and neg reps people.... ive had a couple and whoever it is they seem to have issues with themselves, my last was along the lines of "Boasting again".... yeah whatever, im sharing my experience and taking pics to hopefully help someone else out. I reckon the negger is actually a fatbike rider too as theres a lot here recieving sneaky negs.
    He has a piddly rep score so dont worry, i'll make it up tomorrow when the 24h curfew runs out :thumbsup:
  • 12-03-2012
    Ze_Zaskar
    I'm I the only one who still prefers tubes?
  • 12-03-2012
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    I'm I the only one who still prefers tubes?

    I don't mind the tubes in my fatbike but would prefer Tubeless, but I'm not splitting tubes to do it. I'm going to have a good go at doing it with tape in the next week or two.
  • 12-03-2012
    Ze_Zaskar
    I've used tubless tires on Mavic UST wheels for two yearssome years ago. The lack of pinch flats was cool, but never felt that big of a improvement in riding quality and traction.

    On my fatbike wheels I have a single layer of duct tape for rimtape and use Schwalbe ultralight freeride tubes. Quite a light combo and works really well.

    Tubeless has it's advantages, but I still go for tubes
  • 12-03-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Theres someone who trolls the FatBike forum and neg reps people....

    It's funny you say that, I just checked mine, and apparently got some for liking and encouraging use of Leftys with fatties, but for not having an equally glowing supportive position on Maverick SC32's. I find them to be one of the less stiff forks I've tried, sorry, but it's my experience, shoot me. :rolleyes:

    Opinions are only good if shared by all I guess. ;)
  • 12-03-2012
    Shark
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    I'm I the only one who still prefers tubes?

    You might be the last....;):D

    How often do you flat?

    First few months when I still had tubes, I flatted so often, I just couldn't stand it anymore.
  • 12-03-2012
    coldbike
    My biggest issue with tubeless is the fear. I know that neither my rims (clownshoes) nor my tires are designed to run tubeless. I am concerned that at some inopportune time, my tire will roll or burp and I will crash. That said, I had so many tubes fail in the month or so before I did the conversion that tubeless conversion became the only sensible course of action. I do still carry a spare tube or two though.
  • 12-03-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    You might be the last....;):D

    How often do you flat?

    First few months when I still had tubes, I flatted so often, I just couldn't stand it anymore.

    nope there's two of us :p and i won't be converting. Both methods are a pain to some degree be it initial setup, be it on the trail fix etc.
  • 12-03-2012
    alphazz
    Quote:

    All the tubeless faithful still carry a spare tube. That alone says something IMO.
    I don't carry a tube. I see no point in it.

    Through the years I've seen plenty of handlebars, stems, forks, and frames break while on rides. No one carries extra of those items.
  • 12-03-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I don't carry a tube. I see no point in it.

    Through the years I've seen plenty of handlebars, stems, forks, and frames break while on rides. No one carries extra of those items.

    a bit extreme comparo to say the least. I see no point in going tubeless either but i also know it's functional but just not what i prefer. ;)
  • 12-03-2012
    EPcycles
    Frequently changing tires is a good argument for using tubes.

    Also, I carry a spare tube, tools, and food always regardless of tubeless or tubed.
  • 12-03-2012
    Ze_Zaskar
    On my around 100 miles on the Pugs I'm yet to have a flat, and my area has a large amount of thorns (Rubus armeniacus mostly). I use Slime on my tubes, which really helps and overcomes something that sometimes is made sound like tubeless exclusive.

    I think it's important to mention that tubes still have some advantages over tubeless.
    - Way more flexibility, you can change wheels and tires with no fuss;
    - No problems in slashing tires, you can just sew them;
    - Regular Slime is a lot more durable than most latex based products used to seal tubeless setups;
    - Easier to repair anywhere;
    - No need to worry about tire-rim relationships.
    Just the ones that came to my head right now

    Nothing wrong with tubeless, just not for me. I would probaly use it if I was a racer, but I'm not. My bike is closer in concept to an expedition LR Defender than to a Mitsubishi Pajero Evo (that would be a Beargrease?), so the setup is accordingly different


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I don't carry a tube. I see no point in it.

    You'll see the point when you open an hole on your sidewall in the middle of nowhere. Been there, done that
  • 12-03-2012
    alphazz
    Quote:

    You'll see the point when you open an hole on your sidewall in the middle of nowhere. Been there, done that
    Well, let's see. I've been riding mountain bikes since the early 80's when we received the first production Diamond Backs in our shop. I've never opened a hole on my sidewall. But if I did, it's an easy repair requiring a patch just like patching a tube.
  • 12-03-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    Well, let's see. I've been riding mountain bikes since the early 80's when we received the first production Diamond Backs in our shop. I've never opened a hole on my sidewall. But if I did, it's an easy repair requiring a patch just like patching a tube.

    he's not speaking of a pin hole that a toob requires but something along the lines of what would require a boot, ie a 1/2" gash of sorts.
  • 12-03-2012
    Ze_Zaskar
    I've opened sidewall slashes that I couldn't patch even if my life depended on it. On a tubed tire that can be repaired with a little dental floss and that's it
  • 12-03-2012
    alphazz
    Come on guys. If you can patch it to run a tube, you can patch it to run tubeless.
  • 12-03-2012
    wadester
    I live in thorn country. In skinny tires, I went tubeless long ago - using stan's rims and rimstrips with DIY sealant. I found the positive change in rolling resistance to be well worth the change, but the "go a year w/o a flat" was the deal closer.

    But now, with fatties - pressures are 1/3 what I ran on the skinnies. With normal profile skinnyrims, at 30psi, there were burping issues especially when doing fast corrective steering on slow techy sections. My concern with tubeless fatties is more tread grip and less pressure leading to opening the bead. I note that this is on my local trails/conditions.

    I have never been a gram counter, but I know that my skinny tubeless setups were not lighter than a minimalist's tube setup - but they were lighter than the thornproof tubes filled with Slime that let me ride w/o flats!

    With fatties, I'm actually running moto tubes which are equivalent to the Surly Toobs (except schraeder valved). I have been slowly working on an inflatable beadlock system which should hold the beads tightly, as well as acting as a "run flat" insert. In the meantime, tubes work ok as long as they have sealant in them.
  • 12-03-2012
    wadester
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    I've opened sidewall slashes that I couldn't patch even if my life depended on it. On a tubed tire that can be repaired with a little dental floss and that's it

    And you can do the same on a tubeless sidewall. Sew it back together and let the sealant seal it. Baseball stitch works best.
  • 12-03-2012
    Ze_Zaskar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wadester View Post
    And you can do the same on a tubeless sidewall. Sew it back together and let the sealant seal it. Baseball stitch works best.



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    Come on guys. If you can patch it to run a tube, you can patch it to run tubeless.

    It's not the same thing, a repaired slashed tire may be only capable of keeping the sidewall together and the tube inside
    Small slashes can be patched, but bigger ones may be impossible to repair that way. Also, sometimes the dental floss of a sewed slash can start to rip thru the sidewall fibers
  • 12-03-2012
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    I'm I the only one who still prefers tubes?

    Right there with ya.

    I still *want* tubeless to work on fatties. I run it on all my 29" bikes, and love it.

    So far the promise of improved performance (or even basic air retention) is a myth.

    With tubes I might get a flat every ~10th ride. Maybe.

    With tubeless I get 2 flats *between* every ride--they leak down to flat in a matter of hours.

    If I could get them to reliably hold air I *might* be able to trust them for longer rides--the kind where I could determine if the performance was actually different enough to be worth the hassle.
  • 12-03-2012
    mgersib
    2 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    I don't mind the tubes in my fatbike but would prefer Tubeless, but I'm not splitting tubes to do it. I'm going to have a good go at doing it with tape in the next week or two.

    There really isn't much of a trick to the Gorilla Tape method. Just start with clean parts (clean the rims and rim strip (if you're using cutout rims) with alcohol and let it dry before you start taping and also, it helps to install the tire with a tube first, and seat one of the beads, and also use the tube to make sure your tape is pressed down in a uniform manner on the rim surface. Then, air down the tire, remove the tube, install the tubeless valve stem and sealant, pop your bead back on, go to your compressor, and carefully air it up, making sure not to blow the bead off as it beads up (typically the consequence of the tire attempting to bead asymmetrically on the rim).

    I just built a new set of Marge Lite rims over the weekend, and they were just as easy to set up tubeless as the Rolling Darryls they replaced (and are a ton lighter as well).

    Cheers,
    MG
  • 12-03-2012
    Logantri
    Do other people have the same problem as mikesee, ie. poor air retention? Can you go a few days without airing it up?
  • 12-03-2012
    PretendGentleman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Logantri View Post
    Do other people have the same problem as mikesee, ie. poor air retention? Can you go a few days without airing it up?

    older (i.e., having seen more use not more years) tires tend to be worse in this regard. My 29er tires (ardent 29.4 EXO) will have drips on the sidewalls and my WTB's (2.3, exiwolf?) will have wet looking sidewalls a lot of the time. Generally tires vary a lot in this regard. My surly Bud's seem to lose no air whatsoever, but they're also newer than the ardent.

    Even with my ardent, I often only pump it up once per week and will thus not pump it up before my second ride of the week; I might though for the third or fourth.
  • 12-03-2012
    EPcycles
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    With tubeless I get 2 flats *between* every ride--they leak down to flat in a matter of hours.

    Never had that problem. Are you using sealant? What's your process?
  • 12-03-2012
    alphazz
    I've been playing with lights and other stuff with my rear tire so it's kind of an experiment. My front tubeless has the same air I put in it when I set it up tubeless. They don't have to leak. Submerge your tire in water and figure out where you are having problems and fix it. Air retention in fatties is not a myth.

    A flat every "10th ride" would upset me.
  • 12-03-2012
    ozzybmx
    Cheers mgersib, good to hewr you got it sorted with marge lites. I'm intending to do it with gorilla tape only. Hopefully it works ;)t
  • 12-03-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    With tubeless I get 2 flats *between* every ride--they leak down to flat in a matter of hours.

    All in good fun sir? You must be doing it wrong. :p

    I have Uma 70's and 90's that hold air for months, both mine, and customers.

    With split tube sets on Clownshoes and Darryls, same thing. Set and forget.

    Sure, a few months in, once sealant level drops, they drift the same way a skinny would, but nothing even approaching the hassles your having.

    If I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same way.

    The only thing I can think is you live in rock country. Are you using old, previously run tires? Perhaps the sidewalls are too scuffed and beat down for the sealant to get ahead of the curve.

    New tires, regardless of set up? Inflate, set pressure and go. They retain better than a lot of skinny tires I set up new on Stans rims to be honest...
  • 12-03-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I've been playing with lights and other stuff with my rear tire so it's kind of an experiment. My front tubeless has the same air I put in it when I set it up tubeless. They don't have to leak. Submerge your tire in water and figure out where you are having problems and fix it. Air retention in fatties is not a myth.

    A flat every "10th ride" would upset me.

    but they do simply because of the setup and if you become upset over a flat every 10th ride i'm here for ya. ;)
  • 12-03-2012
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    All in good fun sir? You must be doing it wrong. :p

    I have Uma 70's and 90's that hold air for months, both mine, and customers.

    With split tube sets on Clownshoes and Darryls, same thing. Set and forget.

    Sure, a few months in, once sealant level drops, they drift the same way a skinny would, but nothing even approaching the hassles your having.

    If I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same way.

    The only thing I can think is you live in rock country. Are you using old, previously run tires? Perhaps the sidewalls are too scuffed and beat down for the sealant to get ahead of the curve.

    New tires, regardless of set up? Inflate, set pressure and go. They retain better than a lot of skinny tires I set up new on Stans rims to be honest...

    Hasn't seemed to make any difference with new or used tires. They all leak.

    Wouldn't have started with a beat up tire anyway--the idea has been to duplicate my 29" experience where I install a tire and don't touch it again til its worn out, dead.

    Current operating theory is that the amount of torque on the beads from riding the local chunk (think slow speed rock crawling, even on XC rides) means that they are constantly getting pulled free of the rim, maybe even multiple times per ride. Not enough to burp them (probably because I'm not brave enough to ride them hard yet) but enough that I need to add air every ~20-30 minutes or so when riding. Sometimes there's a visible spot of sealant, sometimes not.

    If I pump them up, then spend ~15 minutes doing the shake and bake to get every leak sealed in the shop, they'll hold for ~half a day. But then I go ride and have to add air several times during the ride. Get home, park the bike, and within an hour they're totally flat.
  • 12-03-2012
    alphazz
    mikesee, I would be interested in how you are doing the tubeless setup. Your experience would be exhausting but it isn't what should be happening.

    Are you using tubes or tape?
  • 12-03-2012
    GTR2ebike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Hasn't seemed to make any difference with new or used tires. They all leak.

    Wouldn't have started with a beat up tire anyway--the idea has been to duplicate my 29" experience where I install a tire and don't touch it again til its worn out, dead.

    Current operating theory is that the amount of torque on the beads from riding the local chunk (think slow speed rock crawling, even on XC rides) means that they are constantly getting pulled free of the rim, maybe even multiple times per ride. Not enough to burp them (probably because I'm not brave enough to ride them hard yet) but enough that I need to add air every ~20-30 minutes or so when riding. Sometimes there's a visible spot of sealant, sometimes not.

    If I pump them up, then spend ~15 minutes doing the shake and bake to get every leak sealed in the shop, they'll hold for ~half a day. But then I go ride and have to add air several times during the ride. Get home, park the bike, and within an hour they're totally flat.

    Something isn't right. The split tube is visible between the tire and the rim right?

    All of mine have held air perfectly, better than any 29 set up I've had.
  • 12-03-2012
    Gilboy
    1 Attachment(s)
    No Tubes
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chris_P View Post
    Could someone explain to me why a tubeless set up is lighter? I'd like to go that route but I've never run it and don't get why it would be lighter. If using the split tube method, is it just the difference in using a lighter tube? In my tire now, there's just a tube. When I here some of the stuff used in a tubeless setup (extra rip strip, tape, foam, sealant .....) I don't get the 'lighter' aspect. Although if it is the case, when paired with some performance benefits, I'd be sold. Thanks.

    I havent used tubes in nine years and never looked back. Now tubeless in mountain bike (Flow EX) disc cross bike (Arch), road bike (Mavic Cysrium SL) and now Beargrease (ghetto tubed rolling holy Darylls)

    after all the number crunching you will save a total of .833125lb of weight total

    but the thought of being tubeless.................priceless !



    this takes into account:

    Weight of the fat tube 500g

    24"x2.4-2.75 tube 260g



    Initial savings (500-260) 240g



    Excess tube material trimmed off 45g



    Secondary savings (240+45) 285g



    3 scoops of Stans (32g per scoop) 96g





    Final Savings (285-96) 189g



    Two tires (189X2) 378g
  • 12-03-2012
    Saul Lumikko
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Current operating theory is that the amount of torque on the beads from riding the local chunk (think slow speed rock crawling, even on XC rides) means that they are constantly getting pulled free of the rim, maybe even multiple times per ride. Not enough to burp them (probably because I'm not brave enough to ride them hard yet) but enough that I need to add air every ~20-30 minutes or so when riding. Sometimes there's a visible spot of sealant, sometimes not.

    Sounds to me like the beads don't connect tight enough with the "bead shelf" on the rim. I'd wrap a round or two of tape on the rim and retry. If the bead raises and snaps on the rim too easily, it's loose. I prefer to have such a tight fit that it requires soapy water to slip on and breaking the bead needs two thumbs and an "oomph" (when deflated).
  • 12-04-2012
    sryanak
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gilboy View Post
    I havent used tubes in nine years and never looked back. Now tubeless in mountain bike (Flow EX) disc cross bike (Arch), road bike (Mavic Cysrium SL) and now Beargrease (ghetto tubed rolling holy Darylls)

    after all the number crunching you will save a total of .833125lb of weight total

    but the thought of being tubeless.................priceless !



    this takes into account:

    Weight of the fat tube 500g

    24"x2.4-2.75 tube 260g



    Initial savings (500-260) 240g



    Excess tube material trimmed off 45g



    Secondary savings (240+45) 285g



    3 scoops of Stans (32g per scoop) 96g





    Final Savings (285-96) 189g



    Two tires (189X2) 378g

    Other advantages notwithstanding lots of people are using tubes that weigh about the same or are lighter than the 24" tube to start with so no weight savings to be had.
  • 12-04-2012
    mgersib
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Cheers mgersib, good to hewr you got it sorted with marge lites. I'm intending to do it with gorilla tape only. Hopefully it works ;)t

    Cheers bro! You'll get it. Be patient. Install with a tube first to get your first bead seated, then pop the tube out, put your tubeless stem and sealant in and BAM, you'll be set. Make sure your tape goes bead-to-bead, which will require two wraps, minimum. I actually run a third wrap right down the center and that seems to seal the best. I have one with two wraps and one with three and today, both are perfect. One was just a little better sealed right off the bat. The sealant had to get a little leak around the valve stem on the two-wrapper... but I digress.

    You'll get it. Have fun ozzybmx!

    Cheers,
    MG
  • 12-04-2012
    mgersib
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Hasn't seemed to make any difference with new or used tires. They all leak.

    Wouldn't have started with a beat up tire anyway--the idea has been to duplicate my 29" experience where I install a tire and don't touch it again til its worn out, dead.

    Current operating theory is that the amount of torque on the beads from riding the local chunk (think slow speed rock crawling, even on XC rides) means that they are constantly getting pulled free of the rim, maybe even multiple times per ride. Not enough to burp them (probably because I'm not brave enough to ride them hard yet) but enough that I need to add air every ~20-30 minutes or so when riding. Sometimes there's a visible spot of sealant, sometimes not.

    If I pump them up, then spend ~15 minutes doing the shake and bake to get every leak sealed in the shop, they'll hold for ~half a day. But then I go ride and have to add air several times during the ride. Get home, park the bike, and within an hour they're totally flat.

    FWIW, Mike, I've never run tubes on my fatbike. At times it's been a pain to get the bead seated, and I've had to use the method I described earlier, but it's 100% worth it on the trail. The only tubes I've ever had to buy are ones I'm replacing because I've given them out to other riders on the trail. I guess I consider it a goodwill expense...

    I run 'em down to 4psi too... on steep climbs. No sweat.
  • 12-04-2012
    alphazz
    If done well, using a tube to seat one side is a waste of time. If you pull the tape very tight, no wrinkles, and use foam if needed, you should be able to pump up by hand.
  • 12-04-2012
    mgersib
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Logantri View Post
    Do other people have the same problem as mikesee, ie. poor air retention? Can you go a few days without airing it up?

    I can go for more than a week without adding air to my tires. I use a low-pressure gauge and stability of pressure is one of the great things about a well set-up tubeless system. I can hold 9-10psi for more than a week without adding air.

    I'm doing it now.
  • 12-04-2012
    exp18
    One thing that I have found is that you need to inspect the bead of the tire and remove any inperfections with sand paper or if you are careful a small die grinder on any tubeless tire it is as important as the smooth tape.
  • 12-04-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Hasn't seemed to make any difference with new or used tires. They all leak.

    Yeah, something odd is going on for sure.

    We've been down this road before, what you ride, is not what others ride, all areas require different riding styles and appropriate gear yada yada yada.

    All that being said, you're screwing around WAY more than the rest of us.

    I scratch my head at those who even have to air up once a week etc.

    I run mine at around 8, (on Uma's) and they hold air for months. I'm no pro, and my terrain is northeast woods, so plenty of roots, rock gardens etc, but I ride plenty hard enough to have burped a conventional Stans tubeless now and again (generally since I forgot to check pressure before the ride). I beat the snot out of them, push them as hard as I can into corners, etc. Rock gardens are just fun, I blow through them with little regard for lines as I would with skinnier wheels.

    I do a fair bit of out of the saddle techy climbing too.

    I only mention all this so that you can get a picture of where I'm at trail wise.

    Guys I ride with that are running split tubes, seem to have very similar results as well...

    I'm sure your rock crawling is putting a bit more stress on, sure. What pressures you running? I know you know way more than most with regards to soft condition pressure, so I doubt your running 4 or 5 etc.

    Others have mentioned too, the amount of effort it takes to break the bead off the rim, mine is often a two handed endeavor, wheel on the floor so I can push harder etc.

    Super strange, sucks you're not having a good experience, as you well understand how, If it worked, it's a really nice thing.

    Not too sure how much any of this helps, but I'd say forge on, there must be an answer, and I'd love to hear it once you find it.

    As an aside, wouldn't you think skinny tires would have the same bead slippage given identical situations?
  • 12-04-2012
    EOB
    regards to the uma wheels from speedwaycycles, they clam no issues going tubeless along with their stan;s tape. i did not hear them say anything on building up the center....sure would appreciate any feedback on the uma's 70mm & 90mm going tubeless....thanks!
  • 12-04-2012
    Moe Ped
    My $.02
    I can only speak to doing tubeless ghetto-style on Large Marge's but it is the way to go; not trouble-free but much less trouble than with tubes. (I ride in a puncture-rich environment!)

    Since I run a sealant anyway (Slime) if I'm running tubes my weight saving is in the tubes; 1~2 # depending---all the other weights cancel out.

    What I've been running is either Stan's or SlimePro when I seat the tires (the latex tends to "glue" the tire in place) and then I top off with plain ol' Slime (like what you'd use in your car; comes in the handy gallon size with a pump)---it'll take a couple of weeks before all the leaks seal up.
  • 12-05-2012
    Ze_Zaskar
    Don't want to sound rude, but theese last posts confirm something that I like about tubes, the simplicity and reliability of the setup
  • 12-05-2012
    GTR2ebike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    Don't want to sound rude, but theese last posts confirm something that I like about tubes, the simplicity and reliability of the setup


    :nono:
  • 12-05-2012
    bighit
    I have run tubeless in every mountain bike I have had or years. I have an unopened bottle of Stan's but yet I haven't converted my fat wheels. I just never flatted on the trail with the surly tubes yet. My current set up CS/Bud, Lou are being run at 5psi. Maybe I will encounter some flats at this pressure, but until then I am hard pressed to convert.
  • 12-05-2012
    MendonCycleSmith
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by EOB View Post
    sure would appreciate any feedback on the uma's 70mm & 90mm going tubeless....thanks!

    I'm running them (90's) and love them. Bead is actually quite hard to break free to change tires, add sealant etc.

    No need to bulk up the bead seat. Helps ease installation to use a tire that is already in use, rather than all flattened down and just out of a box. That said, the foldable ones seemed to seat up just fine.

    I do use the tube first to seat the beads, remove tube, leaving one bead in place, then inflate system just to ease seating.
  • 12-05-2012
    Ze_Zaskar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    :nono:

    Reliability?
    Don't want to start another tubes-no tubes war but with tubes you just have to slap them inside the tire and inflate. Put some Slime in the tube and it is flat resistant to a point.
    Slash in the sidewall? No problem. Too happy turning at too low pressures? No problem, no air ir running away throuh the bead. No air leaks because of bad seating or a temperature drop. Use adequate pressures or riding and you'll hardly have a pinch flat (on a fatbike).
    To me, this means reliability. Go to an expedition/touring cycling forum and see what the guys who REALLY need reliability think about tubeless.

    Once again, nothing wrong with tubeless, but not for me
  • 12-05-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    :yesnod:

    fixed proper
  • 12-05-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    Reliability?
    Don't want to start another tubes-no tubes war but with tubes you just have to slap them inside the tire and inflate. Put some Slime in the tube and it is flat resistant to a point.
    Slash in the sidewall? No problem. Too happy turning at too low pressures? No problem, no air ir running away throuh the bead. No air leaks because of bad seating or a temperature drop. Use adequate pressures or riding and you'll hardly have a pinch flat (on a fatbike).
    To me, this means reliability. Go to an expedition/touring cycling forum and see what the guys who REALLY need reliability think about tubeless.

    Once again, nothing wrong with tubeless, but not for me

    yup this will work just fine IMO.
  • 12-05-2012
    PretendGentleman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    Reliability?
    Don't want to start another tubes-no tubes war but with tubes you just have to slap them inside the tire and inflate. Put some Slime in the tube and it is flat resistant to a point.
    Slash in the sidewall? No problem. Too happy turning at too low pressures? No problem, no air ir running away throuh the bead. No air leaks because of bad seating or a temperature drop. Use adequate pressures or riding and you'll hardly have a pinch flat (on a fatbike).
    To me, this means reliability. Go to an expedition/touring cycling forum and see what the guys who REALLY need reliability think about tubeless.

    Once again, nothing wrong with tubeless, but not for me

    how ironic- I use tubeless because of reliability. a tube is good for maybe 5 miles on my trails, at least for me. Slime might work somewhat in tubes, but I suppose its the sort of thing where it only gets credit when it fails - my perception of slime in tubes is that it works terribly. I really wish I could make tubes work without flatting all of the time, but for now I'll stick with tubeless where I can go 100+ rides in a row without a flat.
  • 12-05-2012
    alphazz
    On a fatty, yep, totally reliable.

    You just have to set them up and you are ready to go. Slap on a tire, no need for a silly tube, throw in some Stans, pump it up, and go ride.

    What is all this talk about slashing sidewalls? Do you guys really ruin that many tires? Maybe you need to pay attention to where or how you ride a little more. Granted, I've slowed down on the trails a little over the years, but I've never had that big of a problem with slashing my tires open. Which by the way, IS a problem with tubes.
  • 12-05-2012
    mikesee
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    On a fatty, yep, totally reliable.

    You just have to set them up and you are ready to go. Slap on a tire, no need for a silly tube, throw in some Stans, pump it up, and go ride.

    What is all this talk about slashing sidewalls? Do you guys really ruin that many tires? Maybe you need to pay attention to where or how you ride a little more. Granted, I've slowed down on the trails a little over the years, but I've never had that big of a problem with slashing my tires open. Which by the way, IS a problem with tubes.

    The tone of your posts, this one in particular, says more about you than about anyone or anything else.

    Totally reliable? Clearly not for everyone.

    Ever thought about why that is, instead of just blithely waving your hand through the air while dismissing 'silly tubes'?

    Or thought about what, exactly, you'll be putting into your tire to limp home after you get that karmic pimp slap of a sidewall slash on your next ride?

    The reason tubeless isn't working for everyone is because this stuff (Surly rims andSurly/45N tires) wasn't designed to work together without a tube as interface.

    Lots of people have figured out ways around this, and that's great.

    Many more have had nothing but frustration, despite their best efforts to make it work. Your ignorance and pompousness (at least that's the way you come across, to me) aren't helping anyone.

    P.S. Craig @ Mendon, Gersib, et al--thanks for the thoughts and encouragement. Next time I have a few hours to spare (January?!) I'll dig back into it. For now, again, it's tubes.
  • 12-05-2012
    Moe Ped
    A couple more comments...
    ...OK more than a couple:
    a) I wouldn't want to try going tubeless without having a good-sized compressor in my shop. (or a small compressor with a big tank)

    b) Schrader valves are more tubeless- friendly than Presta valves. (for both seating the bead and subsequent sealant refills)

    c) If a tire won't seat on the first try; then setting it aside (off the rim) for a couple of days with a fully-inflated tube within. (pre-shapes the tire)

    d) If you're in a hurry then yes seating one bead with a tube will help. (still no luck?---see (c) above)

    e) Using foam to fill the rim's drop center should help (I've never tired it) but adds to the weight/complexity of the process.

    f) Using the "split inner tube/ foam weather-strip" method should work 100% if done correctly (I've never tired it) but adds a lot to the weight/complexity of the process.

    g) The exploding starting fluid/hair spray bead seating technique looks like fun but I never got it to work (only succeeded in catching my tire on fire) on a bike tire.

    There are dozens of vids of this process out there; this is a good one (skip ad in 5 seconds):
    <iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XkzoPIyJcRk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  • 12-05-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    On a fatty, yep, totally reliable.

    You just have to set them up and you are ready to go. Slap on a tire, no need for a silly tube, throw in some Stans, pump it up, and go ride.

    What is all this talk about slashing sidewalls? Do you guys really ruin that many tires? Maybe you need to pay attention to where or how you ride a little more. Granted, I've slowed down on the trails a little over the years, but I've never had that big of a problem with slashing my tires open. Which by the way, IS a problem with tubes.

    yes SETUP of silly tubeless requires much more than a tube but for some strange reason that's awfully hard for you to see and you continue to want it to be the go to for everyone and that is simply not the case just as tubes are not for everyone.....it begs the questions whats so difficult to understand?? :skep:
  • 12-05-2012
    PretendGentleman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    ...OK more than a couple:
    a) I wouldn't want to try going tubeless without having a good-sized compressor in my shop. (or a small compressor with a big tank)

    b) Schrader valves are more tubeless- friendly than Presta valves. (for both seating the bead and subsequent sealant refills)

    c) If a tire won't seat on the first try; then setting it aside (off the rim) for a couple of days with a fully-inflated tube within. (pre-shapes the tire)

    d) If you're in a hurry then yes seating one bead with a tube will help. (still no luck?---see (c) above)

    e) Using foam to fill the rim's drop center should help (I've never tired it) but adds to the weight/complexity of the process.

    f) Using the "split inner tube/ foam weather-strip" method should work 100% if done correctly (I've never tired it) but adds a lot to the weight/complexity of the process.


    the foam does add a bit of complexity-mostly going to the store to get it. But really, not much weight...its low density foam afterall...

    I made a post about setting up my bud on darryl tubeless. air compresor definitely not needed. I'd say a floor pump wasn't even required; a hund pump would have been enough. This is a good way to have things for trail-side repairs, heaven forbid, if they become necessary.

    to me complex is the process of fixing a flat every few miles, but that's not everyone's experience using tubes.
  • 12-05-2012
    alphazz
    Guys, I'm sorry you are offended. It's not hard to understand that some don't want to go tubeless. But I want to play on an even field. A slashed sidewall is as much of a problem for tubes as it is for tubeless unless it is very small.

    Two posts up:

    "a) I wouldn't want to try going tubeless without having a good-sized compressor in my shop." I think that they guys on here that have taken the time to read how others are making tubeless work are not needing to go to such extremes.

    "e) Using foam to fill the rim's drop center should help (I've never tired it) but adds to the weight/complexity of the process." Here is the problem. Yes, it makes it more complex, if that is the term you want to use, but it makes it work easily.

    I saw a thread by ozzy recently where he went tubeless and setup four tires. I think he said it took him five hours. I would easily believe that. The initial setup is time consuming. But once it is done, it is easy to maintain and work with.

    Mikesee, it isn't "ignorance and pompousness". I see posts like the ones above with the explosion and it just absurd. About what I'll be putting into my tube to get home can be a problem with tubes as well. I've helped fill a friend's tire (he was using tubes) with grass before. It worked.

    nvphatty, I have no burden for tubeless to be the "go to for everyone". But I don't believe bringing up silly arguments are appropriate either.

    Again, I'm sorry you guys have been offended.
  • 12-05-2012
    nvphatty
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    nvphatty, I have no burden for tubeless to be the "go to for everyone". But I don't believe bringing up silly arguments are appropriate either.

    Again, I'm sorry you guys have been offended.

    NO offense taken here and while our opinions differ that's all it is to me. I did try and instill a level of reason within it but perhaps i didn't convey that message well.

    Another time & place i may well be a toobless guy but so far i'm good without. :thumbsup:
  • 12-05-2012
    exp18
    :confused:What a controversial topic, it makes me re-think my priorities
  • 12-05-2012
    montana_ben
    Tubeless vs tubes, there are so many variables involved its hard to recommend one over the other. Lots of thorns in your area? Nasty sharp rockses? Riding all snow? Swapping tires a lot? Like messing around with your bike? Pinch flat much? Etc...

    Keep in mind there are different ways to set up tubeless if you decide to go that route. I basically glued my rim strip down with polyurethane caulk, added stans, that's it. It's open to different interpretations as it were. You can go complex or simple depending on what you're trying to achieve and what tools you have on hand. There's a DIY appeal to it.

    Tubes are clean and simple, but all my Qtubes have patches on them after the summer, and since they don't take the patches all that well (being so stretched) they're all slow leakers, and I ended up adding a little stans to them just to seal the patches. I wouldn't expect the stans to seal a new puncture. So it's give and take all around. The summer wheelset will hang with tubes for now, come spring I'll hit em with the juice and see how they do. Winter set is tubeless for now...
  • 12-06-2012
    ozzybmx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    :confused:What a controversial topic, it makes me re-think my priorities

    I have been know to set up tubeless for others as they couldnt manage it with certain setups, i thought i was pretty sh1t hot at it.... the bloody fat wheels were pissing me right off :D

    My priorities was to get back on the tubeless train ASAP, i was flatting around about every other ride and i previously went for a stretch of 18 months on my SS without a single puncture, i didnt even own a mini pump till i asked you's guys about 6 months ago.

    Everyone has different terrains, riding styles and running different pressures so being tubeless on your bike might not be such a big deal.
  • 12-06-2012
    alphazz
    ozzy, how are your tubeless wheels working out? Leaking down any?
  • 12-06-2012
    ozzybmx
    3 rides in and still holding on the trialtech SL's.

    Have not looked at the Bud/ML's but they will hold beautifully, the loud pop on both sides as the bead sealed tells me that.
  • 12-06-2012
    KrateKraig
    Thanks everyone for all the wonderful insight. I've really enjoyed reading this very interesting thread. Me? I think I'll stick with tubes until rims and tires come out that are designed to run tubeless, then I might try them.

    I had UST on my Rush (sold the bike) and my first tubeless experience was a love/hate relationship. Loved them when they held air and saved me from flatting. Hated that it took a lot of time and effort to get them to not leak, and of course there was that mess when you wanted to change tires.

    Both have advantages and disadvantages. What works best for each person is personal preference.

    Whatever you run, may all of your rides be flat free.
  • 12-07-2012
    bugshield
    Dear Trek...
    Dear Trek,

    I have found your most impressive product, the fitted rim strips for your Bontrager Mustang rims.

    Please immediately get to work making similar rim strips for Surly's fat bike rims.

    I look forward to purchasing them next week!

    Sincerely yours,

    Deluded
  • 12-07-2012
    Velobike
    I like the idea of tubeless, but needing to use a sealant with the resulting potential for mess, kills the idea of tubeless for me.

    Also any prospect of not being able to reinflate trailside.
  • 12-07-2012
    ozzybmx
    Im not a drug pusher :)

    (i dont push my opinion, if you dont like just disregard)

    Filling the valley with foam and taping it allows track pump inflation, mini pump might be no good but C02 will certainly inflate a "valley" filled wheel on the trail.
  • 12-07-2012
    lawfarm
    I did my tubeless setup last night, ghetto with a foam strip.

    It took about 40 minutes to do 2 tires, for the first time.

    I did use an air compressor, but it wasn't needed. The tire would have seated with a hand pump or a CO2 cartridge. It could not have gone any easier, and dismounting/remounting in the field should not be any kind of problem.

    I would not use schrader valves. Presta are more reliable, and every bike pump works with them. I can't see any downside to the conversion. It simply could not have been any easier. No drilling, no glue, no caulk, no mess. The foam strips cost about $.25 per tire (buying a 50' roll from Lowes), and took about 2 minutes and a pair of scissors to cut to size. The "complexity" level was well within the capacity of my 4 year old.

    If people want to stick with tubes, that's fine--totally their call. That'll just make it easier for me to pass them on the trail. :D:thumbsup:


    --WAIT--I take back what I said. It was hard and dangerous to make and manufacture the parts needed for a Ghetto tubeless conversion. If anyone needs help, I'll sell you a ghetto tubeless conversion kit for $100, including the required tube and foam strip. ;)
  • 12-07-2012
    PretendGentleman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lawfarm View Post
    I did my tubeless setup last night, ghetto with a foam strip.

    It took about 40 minutes to do 2 tires, for the first time.

    I did use an air compressor, but it wasn't needed. The tire would have seated with a hand pump or a CO2 cartridge. It could not have gone any easier, and dismounting/remounting in the field should not be any kind of problem.

    I would not use schrader valves. Presta are more reliable, and every bike pump works with them. I can't see any downside to the conversion. It simply could not have been any easier. No drilling, no glue, no caulk, no mess. The foam strips cost about $.25 per tire (buying a 50' roll from Lowes), and took about 2 minutes and a pair of scissors to cut to size. The "complexity" level was well within the capacity of my 4 year old.

    If people want to stick with tubes, that's fine--totally their call. That'll just make it easier for me to pass them on the trail. :D:thumbsup:


    --WAIT--I take back what I said. It was hard and dangerous to make and manufacture the parts needed for a Ghetto tubeless conversion. If anyone needs help, I'll sell you a ghetto tubeless conversion kit for $100, including the required tube and foam strip. ;)

    But toobs are so simple! Why so much added weight and complexity... so you can join the tubeless club?

    j/k. glad to hear it worked out for you. I'd never heard of folks using foam prior to reading about conversions for far bikes. But I think it would be great on my 29er too, as reseating a bead that comes off for whatever reason is tons easier with foam.

    Hopefully the foam still has some push to it after being squished inside a tire for months. Since this is so new, we'll have to wait and see.
  • 12-07-2012
    lawfarm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    But toobs are so simple! Why so much added weight and complexity... so you can join the tubeless club?

    j/k. glad to hear it worked out for you. I'd never heard of folks using foam prior to reading about conversions for far bikes. But I think it would be great on my 29er too, as reseating a bead that comes off for whatever reason is tons easier with foam.

    Hopefully the foam still has some push to it after being squished inside a tire for months. Since this is so new, we'll have to wait and see.

    Reduced weight, you mean...

    About 1.5 pounds reduced weight.

    I will be curious to see how the foam holds up, too. Since it doesn't touch the tire, the only pressure on it is from the air pressure in there...which is usually single digit for me. Single digit pressure spread out evenly...I don't think there'll be much deterioration. I was torn on whether the foam was needed or not. As easily as the tires mounted up, I think it's the way to go.
  • 12-07-2012
    PretendGentleman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by lawfarm View Post
    Reduced weight, you mean...

    About 1.5 pounds reduced weight.

    of course I meant that! And I think fiddling with tube patches and stopping in the middle of rides to maintian your tubes all the time is far more complex than the tubeless set-it-up-and-don't-think-about-it-for-100+-rides approach. :thumbsup:

    sarcasm doesn't always carry over well to the web

    (weight loss can be great though my reason for running tubeless is definitely b/c of flats)
  • 12-07-2012
    Velobike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    ... And I think fiddling with tube patches and stopping in the middle of rides to maintian your tubes all the time is far more complex than the tubeless set-it-up-and-don't-think-about-it-for-100+-rides approach...

    Suppose it depends where and how you ride.

    I go about 3 years between punctures with tubes.
  • 12-07-2012
    coastkid71
    3 threads on tubeless fat on the front page of MTBR...
    Fatbikes, adventure, snow riding and racing, sand, snow, lava, rock, trails, trail centres if you really have to, simple non suspension, big fat tyres, simple to maintain and repair in off the beaten track places.... tubeless to repair is a bit more fuss than another tube swap or patch a tube, esp in extreme condtions. tubeless has a place in all types of MTBs...
    Fair enough if your interested in having a go but 3 threads?

    Along with folk asking if you paint a frame with plastic coat how much heavier will it be I think this is exactly why i do not come on here much anymore...:rolleyes:


    Well the gates are open now... :rolleyes:
  • 12-07-2012
    lawfarm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by coastkid71 View Post
    3 threads on tubeless fat on the front page of MTBR...
    Fatbikes, adventure, snow riding and racing, sand, snow, lava, rock, trails, trail centres if you really have to, simple non suspension, big fat tyres, simple to maintain and repair in off the beaten track places.... tubeless to repair is a bit more fuss than another tube swap or patch a tube, esp in extreme condtions. tubeless has a place in all types of MTBs...
    Fair enough if your interested in having a go but 3 threads?

    Along with folk asking if you paint a frame with plastic coat how much heavier will it be I think this is exactly why i do not come on here much anymore...:rolleyes:


    Well the gates are open now... :rolleyes:

    There are more than 3 threads...:D:p

    I started a new thread with a specific title, so that 3 months from now, when someone else wants to go tubeless with Rolling Darryls, they will have an easy time finding what worked for me.

    As far as the repair thing goes, my experience on a multitude of bikes, in a multitude of conditions, has been that tubeless means more time riding and less time repairing...but to each his own.
  • 12-07-2012
    boogman
    Hmm i haven't experienced flat in close to 900 miles of riding on my pug..

    I'm mainly interested in the tubeless for the weight savings.. However it seems like I can achieve similar weight savings by going with a conventional MTB tube..?

    I don't see any cons of going that way as a weight savings goal, without going tubeless What say you?
  • 12-07-2012
    lawfarm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by boogman View Post
    Hmm i haven't experienced flat in close to 900 miles of riding on my pug..

    I'm mainly interested in the tubeless for the weight savings.. However it seems like I can achieve similar weight savings by going with a conventional MTB tube..?

    I don't see any cons of going that way as a weight savings goal, without going tubeless What say you?

    I had contemplated that, as well. For me, the reasons I went tubeless were:

    1) Running a lighter tube increases the chances of flatting, over either tubeless, or a regular Surly tube.
    2) Better traction/less rolling resistance with tubeless.
    3) More weight reduction. I don't think you'll find a conventional MTB tube that's as light as a 24" tube...even with a dash of stans.