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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ze_Zaskar View Post
    Reliability?
    Don't want to start another tubes-no tubes war but with tubes you just have to slap them inside the tire and inflate. Put some Slime in the tube and it is flat resistant to a point.
    Slash in the sidewall? No problem. Too happy turning at too low pressures? No problem, no air ir running away throuh the bead. No air leaks because of bad seating or a temperature drop. Use adequate pressures or riding and you'll hardly have a pinch flat (on a fatbike).
    To me, this means reliability. Go to an expedition/touring cycling forum and see what the guys who REALLY need reliability think about tubeless.

    Once again, nothing wrong with tubeless, but not for me
    how ironic- I use tubeless because of reliability. a tube is good for maybe 5 miles on my trails, at least for me. Slime might work somewhat in tubes, but I suppose its the sort of thing where it only gets credit when it fails - my perception of slime in tubes is that it works terribly. I really wish I could make tubes work without flatting all of the time, but for now I'll stick with tubeless where I can go 100+ rides in a row without a flat.

  2. #77
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    On a fatty, yep, totally reliable.

    You just have to set them up and you are ready to go. Slap on a tire, no need for a silly tube, throw in some Stans, pump it up, and go ride.

    What is all this talk about slashing sidewalls? Do you guys really ruin that many tires? Maybe you need to pay attention to where or how you ride a little more. Granted, I've slowed down on the trails a little over the years, but I've never had that big of a problem with slashing my tires open. Which by the way, IS a problem with tubes.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    On a fatty, yep, totally reliable.

    You just have to set them up and you are ready to go. Slap on a tire, no need for a silly tube, throw in some Stans, pump it up, and go ride.

    What is all this talk about slashing sidewalls? Do you guys really ruin that many tires? Maybe you need to pay attention to where or how you ride a little more. Granted, I've slowed down on the trails a little over the years, but I've never had that big of a problem with slashing my tires open. Which by the way, IS a problem with tubes.
    The tone of your posts, this one in particular, says more about you than about anyone or anything else.

    Totally reliable? Clearly not for everyone.

    Ever thought about why that is, instead of just blithely waving your hand through the air while dismissing 'silly tubes'?

    Or thought about what, exactly, you'll be putting into your tire to limp home after you get that karmic pimp slap of a sidewall slash on your next ride?

    The reason tubeless isn't working for everyone is because this stuff (Surly rims andSurly/45N tires) wasn't designed to work together without a tube as interface.

    Lots of people have figured out ways around this, and that's great.

    Many more have had nothing but frustration, despite their best efforts to make it work. Your ignorance and pompousness (at least that's the way you come across, to me) aren't helping anyone.

    P.S. Craig @ Mendon, Gersib, et al--thanks for the thoughts and encouragement. Next time I have a few hours to spare (January?!) I'll dig back into it. For now, again, it's tubes.
    Last edited by mikesee; 12-05-2012 at 04:10 PM.

  4. #79
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    A couple more comments...

    ...OK more than a couple:
    a) I wouldn't want to try going tubeless without having a good-sized compressor in my shop. (or a small compressor with a big tank)

    b) Schrader valves are more tubeless- friendly than Presta valves. (for both seating the bead and subsequent sealant refills)

    c) If a tire won't seat on the first try; then setting it aside (off the rim) for a couple of days with a fully-inflated tube within. (pre-shapes the tire)

    d) If you're in a hurry then yes seating one bead with a tube will help. (still no luck?---see (c) above)

    e) Using foam to fill the rim's drop center should help (I've never tired it) but adds to the weight/complexity of the process.

    f) Using the "split inner tube/ foam weather-strip" method should work 100% if done correctly (I've never tired it) but adds a lot to the weight/complexity of the process.

    g) The exploding starting fluid/hair spray bead seating technique looks like fun but I never got it to work (only succeeded in catching my tire on fire) on a bike tire.

    There are dozens of vids of this process out there; this is a good one (skip ad in 5 seconds):
    The views and opinions expressed here are those of the author and do not represent any policy of the CA Dept. of Parks & Rec.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    On a fatty, yep, totally reliable.

    You just have to set them up and you are ready to go. Slap on a tire, no need for a silly tube, throw in some Stans, pump it up, and go ride.

    What is all this talk about slashing sidewalls? Do you guys really ruin that many tires? Maybe you need to pay attention to where or how you ride a little more. Granted, I've slowed down on the trails a little over the years, but I've never had that big of a problem with slashing my tires open. Which by the way, IS a problem with tubes.
    yes SETUP of silly tubeless requires much more than a tube but for some strange reason that's awfully hard for you to see and you continue to want it to be the go to for everyone and that is simply not the case just as tubes are not for everyone.....it begs the questions whats so difficult to understand??

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    ...OK more than a couple:
    a) I wouldn't want to try going tubeless without having a good-sized compressor in my shop. (or a small compressor with a big tank)

    b) Schrader valves are more tubeless- friendly than Presta valves. (for both seating the bead and subsequent sealant refills)

    c) If a tire won't seat on the first try; then setting it aside (off the rim) for a couple of days with a fully-inflated tube within. (pre-shapes the tire)

    d) If you're in a hurry then yes seating one bead with a tube will help. (still no luck?---see (c) above)

    e) Using foam to fill the rim's drop center should help (I've never tired it) but adds to the weight/complexity of the process.

    f) Using the "split inner tube/ foam weather-strip" method should work 100% if done correctly (I've never tired it) but adds a lot to the weight/complexity of the process.

    the foam does add a bit of complexity-mostly going to the store to get it. But really, not much weight...its low density foam afterall...

    I made a post about setting up my bud on darryl tubeless. air compresor definitely not needed. I'd say a floor pump wasn't even required; a hund pump would have been enough. This is a good way to have things for trail-side repairs, heaven forbid, if they become necessary.

    to me complex is the process of fixing a flat every few miles, but that's not everyone's experience using tubes.

  7. #82
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    Guys, I'm sorry you are offended. It's not hard to understand that some don't want to go tubeless. But I want to play on an even field. A slashed sidewall is as much of a problem for tubes as it is for tubeless unless it is very small.

    Two posts up:

    "a) I wouldn't want to try going tubeless without having a good-sized compressor in my shop." I think that they guys on here that have taken the time to read how others are making tubeless work are not needing to go to such extremes.

    "e) Using foam to fill the rim's drop center should help (I've never tired it) but adds to the weight/complexity of the process." Here is the problem. Yes, it makes it more complex, if that is the term you want to use, but it makes it work easily.

    I saw a thread by ozzy recently where he went tubeless and setup four tires. I think he said it took him five hours. I would easily believe that. The initial setup is time consuming. But once it is done, it is easy to maintain and work with.

    Mikesee, it isn't "ignorance and pompousness". I see posts like the ones above with the explosion and it just absurd. About what I'll be putting into my tube to get home can be a problem with tubes as well. I've helped fill a friend's tire (he was using tubes) with grass before. It worked.

    nvphatty, I have no burden for tubeless to be the "go to for everyone". But I don't believe bringing up silly arguments are appropriate either.

    Again, I'm sorry you guys have been offended.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    nvphatty, I have no burden for tubeless to be the "go to for everyone". But I don't believe bringing up silly arguments are appropriate either.

    Again, I'm sorry you guys have been offended.
    NO offense taken here and while our opinions differ that's all it is to me. I did try and instill a level of reason within it but perhaps i didn't convey that message well.

    Another time & place i may well be a toobless guy but so far i'm good without.

  9. #84
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    What a controversial topic, it makes me re-think my priorities

  10. #85
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    Tubeless vs tubes, there are so many variables involved its hard to recommend one over the other. Lots of thorns in your area? Nasty sharp rockses? Riding all snow? Swapping tires a lot? Like messing around with your bike? Pinch flat much? Etc...

    Keep in mind there are different ways to set up tubeless if you decide to go that route. I basically glued my rim strip down with polyurethane caulk, added stans, that's it. It's open to different interpretations as it were. You can go complex or simple depending on what you're trying to achieve and what tools you have on hand. There's a DIY appeal to it.

    Tubes are clean and simple, but all my Qtubes have patches on them after the summer, and since they don't take the patches all that well (being so stretched) they're all slow leakers, and I ended up adding a little stans to them just to seal the patches. I wouldn't expect the stans to seal a new puncture. So it's give and take all around. The summer wheelset will hang with tubes for now, come spring I'll hit em with the juice and see how they do. Winter set is tubeless for now...

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    What a controversial topic, it makes me re-think my priorities
    I have been know to set up tubeless for others as they couldnt manage it with certain setups, i thought i was pretty sh1t hot at it.... the bloody fat wheels were pissing me right off

    My priorities was to get back on the tubeless train ASAP, i was flatting around about every other ride and i previously went for a stretch of 18 months on my SS without a single puncture, i didnt even own a mini pump till i asked you's guys about 6 months ago.

    Everyone has different terrains, riding styles and running different pressures so being tubeless on your bike might not be such a big deal.
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  12. #87
    Laramie, Wyoming
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    ozzy, how are your tubeless wheels working out? Leaking down any?

  13. #88
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    3 rides in and still holding on the trialtech SL's.

    Have not looked at the Bud/ML's but they will hold beautifully, the loud pop on both sides as the bead sealed tells me that.
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  14. #89
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    Thanks everyone for all the wonderful insight. I've really enjoyed reading this very interesting thread. Me? I think I'll stick with tubes until rims and tires come out that are designed to run tubeless, then I might try them.

    I had UST on my Rush (sold the bike) and my first tubeless experience was a love/hate relationship. Loved them when they held air and saved me from flatting. Hated that it took a lot of time and effort to get them to not leak, and of course there was that mess when you wanted to change tires.

    Both have advantages and disadvantages. What works best for each person is personal preference.

    Whatever you run, may all of your rides be flat free.
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  15. #90
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    Dear Trek...

    Dear Trek,

    I have found your most impressive product, the fitted rim strips for your Bontrager Mustang rims.

    Please immediately get to work making similar rim strips for Surly's fat bike rims.

    I look forward to purchasing them next week!

    Sincerely yours,

    Deluded

  16. #91
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    I like the idea of tubeless, but needing to use a sealant with the resulting potential for mess, kills the idea of tubeless for me.

    Also any prospect of not being able to reinflate trailside.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  17. #92
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    Im not a drug pusher

    (i dont push my opinion, if you dont like just disregard)

    Filling the valley with foam and taping it allows track pump inflation, mini pump might be no good but C02 will certainly inflate a "valley" filled wheel on the trail.
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  18. #93
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    I did my tubeless setup last night, ghetto with a foam strip.

    It took about 40 minutes to do 2 tires, for the first time.

    I did use an air compressor, but it wasn't needed. The tire would have seated with a hand pump or a CO2 cartridge. It could not have gone any easier, and dismounting/remounting in the field should not be any kind of problem.

    I would not use schrader valves. Presta are more reliable, and every bike pump works with them. I can't see any downside to the conversion. It simply could not have been any easier. No drilling, no glue, no caulk, no mess. The foam strips cost about $.25 per tire (buying a 50' roll from Lowes), and took about 2 minutes and a pair of scissors to cut to size. The "complexity" level was well within the capacity of my 4 year old.

    If people want to stick with tubes, that's fine--totally their call. That'll just make it easier for me to pass them on the trail.


    --WAIT--I take back what I said. It was hard and dangerous to make and manufacture the parts needed for a Ghetto tubeless conversion. If anyone needs help, I'll sell you a ghetto tubeless conversion kit for $100, including the required tube and foam strip.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawfarm View Post
    I did my tubeless setup last night, ghetto with a foam strip.

    It took about 40 minutes to do 2 tires, for the first time.

    I did use an air compressor, but it wasn't needed. The tire would have seated with a hand pump or a CO2 cartridge. It could not have gone any easier, and dismounting/remounting in the field should not be any kind of problem.

    I would not use schrader valves. Presta are more reliable, and every bike pump works with them. I can't see any downside to the conversion. It simply could not have been any easier. No drilling, no glue, no caulk, no mess. The foam strips cost about $.25 per tire (buying a 50' roll from Lowes), and took about 2 minutes and a pair of scissors to cut to size. The "complexity" level was well within the capacity of my 4 year old.

    If people want to stick with tubes, that's fine--totally their call. That'll just make it easier for me to pass them on the trail.


    --WAIT--I take back what I said. It was hard and dangerous to make and manufacture the parts needed for a Ghetto tubeless conversion. If anyone needs help, I'll sell you a ghetto tubeless conversion kit for $100, including the required tube and foam strip.
    But toobs are so simple! Why so much added weight and complexity... so you can join the tubeless club?

    j/k. glad to hear it worked out for you. I'd never heard of folks using foam prior to reading about conversions for far bikes. But I think it would be great on my 29er too, as reseating a bead that comes off for whatever reason is tons easier with foam.

    Hopefully the foam still has some push to it after being squished inside a tire for months. Since this is so new, we'll have to wait and see.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    But toobs are so simple! Why so much added weight and complexity... so you can join the tubeless club?

    j/k. glad to hear it worked out for you. I'd never heard of folks using foam prior to reading about conversions for far bikes. But I think it would be great on my 29er too, as reseating a bead that comes off for whatever reason is tons easier with foam.

    Hopefully the foam still has some push to it after being squished inside a tire for months. Since this is so new, we'll have to wait and see.
    Reduced weight, you mean...

    About 1.5 pounds reduced weight.

    I will be curious to see how the foam holds up, too. Since it doesn't touch the tire, the only pressure on it is from the air pressure in there...which is usually single digit for me. Single digit pressure spread out evenly...I don't think there'll be much deterioration. I was torn on whether the foam was needed or not. As easily as the tires mounted up, I think it's the way to go.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawfarm View Post
    Reduced weight, you mean...

    About 1.5 pounds reduced weight.
    of course I meant that! And I think fiddling with tube patches and stopping in the middle of rides to maintian your tubes all the time is far more complex than the tubeless set-it-up-and-don't-think-about-it-for-100+-rides approach.

    sarcasm doesn't always carry over well to the web

    (weight loss can be great though my reason for running tubeless is definitely b/c of flats)

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretendGentleman View Post
    ... And I think fiddling with tube patches and stopping in the middle of rides to maintian your tubes all the time is far more complex than the tubeless set-it-up-and-don't-think-about-it-for-100+-rides approach...
    Suppose it depends where and how you ride.

    I go about 3 years between punctures with tubes.
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  23. #98
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    3 threads on tubeless fat on the front page of MTBR...
    Fatbikes, adventure, snow riding and racing, sand, snow, lava, rock, trails, trail centres if you really have to, simple non suspension, big fat tyres, simple to maintain and repair in off the beaten track places.... tubeless to repair is a bit more fuss than another tube swap or patch a tube, esp in extreme condtions. tubeless has a place in all types of MTBs...
    Fair enough if your interested in having a go but 3 threads?

    Along with folk asking if you paint a frame with plastic coat how much heavier will it be I think this is exactly why i do not come on here much anymore...


    Well the gates are open now...
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by coastkid71 View Post
    3 threads on tubeless fat on the front page of MTBR...
    Fatbikes, adventure, snow riding and racing, sand, snow, lava, rock, trails, trail centres if you really have to, simple non suspension, big fat tyres, simple to maintain and repair in off the beaten track places.... tubeless to repair is a bit more fuss than another tube swap or patch a tube, esp in extreme condtions. tubeless has a place in all types of MTBs...
    Fair enough if your interested in having a go but 3 threads?

    Along with folk asking if you paint a frame with plastic coat how much heavier will it be I think this is exactly why i do not come on here much anymore...


    Well the gates are open now...
    There are more than 3 threads...

    I started a new thread with a specific title, so that 3 months from now, when someone else wants to go tubeless with Rolling Darryls, they will have an easy time finding what worked for me.

    As far as the repair thing goes, my experience on a multitude of bikes, in a multitude of conditions, has been that tubeless means more time riding and less time repairing...but to each his own.

  25. #100
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    Hmm i haven't experienced flat in close to 900 miles of riding on my pug..

    I'm mainly interested in the tubeless for the weight savings.. However it seems like I can achieve similar weight savings by going with a conventional MTB tube..?

    I don't see any cons of going that way as a weight savings goal, without going tubeless What say you?

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