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  1. #1
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    All this chatter of tubeless and countless threads, i myself have had 3-4 attempts but never using the "build up the valley" method.

    So the missus asked what i was doing today, i said "a bit of stuff outside" she said she would not be home all day and she would pick the kids up from school

    Perfect opportunity for for Toobless Toosday.... though i didnt count on it taking me 5 hours.

    Ok i used Laminate flooring underlay for the foam, its plastic backed and not the lightest but its a medium density foam. I measured the "valley" and cut it into strips progressively getting wider.





    1 wrap around with gorilla tape, stretched and made sure it reached the bead.




    Marge lites.
    Rimstrip = 45g
    Foam = 50g
    Tape = 45g
    So the rim strip stayed there meaning a 90g gain for losing a 220g Q-Tube superlite = -130g
    I have not added sealant to the Marge Lites yet as i will not be riding them until i have got the others sorted.



    This is where i was gobsmacked, i fitted the tyre, gave them a quick once round with some soapy water, gave it 1-2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre move towards the bead and started bubbling



    10-12 pumps later the first bead popped, then the second at about 15psi, i have pumped them to 20psi and they still seem like they are holding air with no sealant.



    Awesome, cant believe how easy that was, most time was taken cutting foam. Thanks to all who have posted their tubeless conversions.... if you see some of you mod here, i probably copied you. Cheers
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  2. #2
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    Ok set number 2.

    These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed.
    These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.

    I removed the old rimstrip and added the foam and new gorilla tape, total gained was 45g more from what they were, the original rimstrip could have been lighter but nevertheless 220g q-tube superlite minus 45g = 175g saved (rimstrip is additional 55g) per wheel. Both wheels have had 70ml of stans added.

    First thing was to block the holes that would let the air escape into the rim and out the butted joint. Filled with epoxy metal putty and a smear of loctite on the joint.




    Same as before, filled the valley with foam. Then taped up.







    These went up with the same 1-2 pumps but did not pop onto the bead, thats why i will try and sort these out first as the other wheels are 100%. I cant burp the bead or let any air out until they are nearly flat but tonights ride will make things clearer. They are currently holding air (after stans blocked about 10 holes from thorns) at 10psi and i will drop that gradually down to about 7psi for testing purposes.

    Hopefully all works well and they stay on the rims, cheers for tips

    4 wheels now tubeless !!!!

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  3. #3
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    Nice work. Looking forward to the ride impressions.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  4. #4
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    Cheers Stevo, If i survive the run tonight i'll post how the Trialtechs go later, the Marge Lites are as good as perfect, the bead is solid on them.
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  5. #5
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    Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully.

    One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt

    I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.
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  6. #6
    Fat & Single
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    I have saved 260g on the Marge/Buds wheelset.

    And 350g on the TrialTech/HuDu's wheelset. (sealant added after weigh in)

    With the new 1080 cassette i weighed my bike in the high 24lbs today, the new "lite" HuDu's i just got are saving me 130g a tyre too, so when its gets the next weigh in i might have a surprise
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  7. #7
    All fat, all the time.
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    Nicely done! Enjoy alot less flats

  8. #8
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    Cheers shark, Ive been tubeless for 5 years on other bikes, if i get anywhere near the result ive had with them i'll be super happy.
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  9. #9
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    Great write up and nice images. I'm tubeless on my non drilled rolling Darryl's + nates. Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam? She's on marge lites and will soon be running Dillingers ...I'd like to make this tubeless for her.
    Thanks again.

  10. #10
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    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    Whatever floats your bike, dude

  11. #11
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    Very nice and thurough.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    correct. all i did was do three layers of gorilla tape (left/right/center), melt the valve hole out w a soldering iron and put air in w a compressor. providing that seals up ok i then take out the valve core and huck some stans in and shake.
    so far its worked flawlessly on 3 efforts on rolling darryls W/O cutouts.

  13. #13
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    Hey;

    SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!



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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    Hey;

    SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!



    -
    yup by far the ozzyiest (just made that up ) if i understand the 1st post correctly regarding the absence of a tube it requires more air volume to match a tubed setup in order to have the same ride feel yes??

  15. #15
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    I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.
    Very True...

    Of ALL of the the surfaces involved. Car race tires are the same way. The beads are so stiff and with little extra rubber to absorb junk, that if anything gets in there (casting flashing, bead bits, little stones, rim corrosion or nicks, whatever) it will leak, and race tires already leak like crazy anyway. Flat every morning, sometimes, if you don't pay close attention when mounting them.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ok set number 2.

    These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed.
    These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.

    I removed the old rimstrip and added the foam and new gorilla tape, total gained was 45g more from what they were, the original rimstrip could have been lighter but nevertheless 220g q-tube superlite minus 45g = 175g saved (rimstrip is additional 55g) per wheel. Both wheels have had 70ml of stans added.

    First thing was to block the holes that would let the air escape into the rim and out the butted joint. Filled with epoxy metal putty and a smear of loctite on the joint.




    Same as before, filled the valley with foam. Then taped up.







    These went up with the same 1-2 pumps but did not pop onto the bead, thats why i will try and sort these out first as the other wheels are 100%. I cant burp the bead or let any air out until they are nearly flat but tonights ride will make things clearer. They are currently holding air (after stans blocked about 10 holes from thorns) at 10psi and i will drop that gradually down to about 7psi for testing purposes.

    Hopefully all works well and they stay on the rims, cheers for tips

    4 wheels now tubeless !!!!

    Nice work dude!! Persistence pays! You will absolutely love riding tubeless on your fatbike. I think the benefits are totally magnified by the big wheels... Especially the aspect of rolling resistance. You will feel it immediately.

    Let us know how it goes!

    Cheers,
    MG

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully.

    One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt

    I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.
    You'll likely start to get a feel for the fact that you can go lower and lower with your pressure as your confidence in the tubeless setup grows. You'll start to understand that feeling the rim gently tapping the ground every once and a while isn't the worst thing in the world when you're running tubeless (unless you're riding in really rocky terrain).

  19. #19
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    Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?
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  20. #20
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    thanks for the post..

    I've got Large Marge Rims and the 27tpi Larry and Endos.. would these combinations be tubeless compatible? What's the process?

  21. #21
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    "Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"

    I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruitr1 View Post
    "Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"

    I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?
    As far as I understand it, the foam really just helps with mounting and first taking air. Without the foam, there would be too much room for air to escape between the tire and rim when first airing up.

  23. #23
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    Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivrmutt View Post
    Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.
    Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.
    Agreed.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DubzOxford View Post
    Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?
    Both sets i used are folding beads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    The Marge lites have a small line of tape on either side holding the clear sparkly polythene rimstrip in place but in short the answer is yes, both wheels have the gorilla tape stretch fitted the full width and its only contacting the bead shelf
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by easterntide View Post
    What is the reason needed for the center foam?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruitr1 View Post
    What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?
    I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead

    The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.

    Filling the "valley" with foam stops the bead falling into the valley and forces a tighter fit so once you start inflating, the bead has already got a semi-seal on the built up foam and the slighest bit of pressure and its moving towards the bead ready to seal. Trying to inflate them without this foam is a painful job, the tyres can be easily changed out and inflated again tubeless with a track pump.

    Non of the fat tyres are meant to be inflated tubeless and the QC on them doesnt seem flash, also apart from UMA rims i dont think there is any that are meant to be used for tubeless either.

    There loads of different ways of doing this and doing it without foam might be as easy for you with you tyre/rim combo. I have tried a few times with the Trialtech/HuDu and also on my GFS/larry-endos without success, now this time the foam has made all the difference.
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  28. #28
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    What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead

    The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.

    Filling the "valley" with foam stops the bead falling into the valley and forces a tighter fit so once you start inflating, the bead has already got a semi-seal on the built up foam and the slighest bit of pressure and its moving towards the bead ready to seal. Trying to inflate them without this foam is a painful job, the tyres can be easily changed out and inflated again tubeless with a track pump.

    Non of the fat tyres are meant to be inflated tubeless and the QC on them doesnt seem flash, also apart from UMA rims i dont think there is any that are meant to be used for tubeless either.

    There loads of different ways of doing this and doing it without foam might be as easy for you with you tyre/rim combo. I have tried a few times with the Trialtech/HuDu and also on my GFS/larry-endos without success, now this time the foam has made all the difference.
    Great thread on your technique; well executed---I'd try it but I seem to be getting by OK ghetto-style w/o the foam. It might be worth mentioning that when using this method to be sure to use "closed-cell" foam; there are "open-cell" weather-stripping tapes and they'd act just like a sponge if the wheel was immersed---talk about heavy!
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  30. #30
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    Thanks Ozzy for posting your efforts.

    Well explained and must say the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by boogman View Post
    What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks
    I don't think he is using a valve as that's not accounted for in the weight

  32. #32
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    No way, 10g valves are too heavy

    For the two sets of wheels i used 3 proper tubeless valves and 1 made from a tube.

    If you have old tubes with valves that have removable cores just cut round the valve and leave a 10mm circle all around, its just as good bought valves and in a lot of cases cheaper too as the valves are about $10 each .
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sand Rat View Post
    the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)
    It was stinking hot outside, just lucky lighting as i did all the taping inside in aircon'd comfort.
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  34. #34
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    Nice work!

    So now, just to play devils advocate for a moment, why Gorilla tape as opposed to split tube?

    I love G tape (the most badass duct tape ever made!), but it is heavy as far as duct tape goes, nice and dense, but heavy. Yeah, not *that* heavy, okay, relax out there...

    The reason I like the split tube is the extra room it takes up and the bead socket, as well as the extra sealing around the bead. Also makes you not have to go around and seal all the tiny drain holes in the rim.

    Sure, the sealant takes care of the sealing, but if it has help, it'd seem to be a good thing.

    Think bead socket room reduction ala Stan's rims with their BST, mixed with the butyl wrapped beads on the current crop of "tubeless ready" tires, and you can see what my thrust here is.

    I also have a theory working off of Mikesee's issues with thinking the beads are slipping under heavy load/low pressures, that the butyl wrap on the bead will help hold it more tightly than just the aluminum rim.

    All good, just discussing relative merits and potential downfalls/benefits of both concepts.

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  35. #35
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    Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
    The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.

    No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.
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  36. #36
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    My Surly Cycling cap is off to those of you that were able to make your Holy Rolling Darryl’s tubeless. I thought about going tubeless since day one when I got my Neco. I scanned the pages of the fat bike forum looking for suggestions and final decided to make the plunge this morning. I grabbed a roll of Gorilla tape, a set of Stans tubeless valves, some foam to fill the valley, and started off on my unknown venture. Everything went just as planned, I put the final strip of tape across the rim, put my valve in, mounted my 120tpi Knard and to the compressor I went. I attempted to fill the tire with absolutely no luck. No matter what I did I could not get the tire to fill with air. In frustration and lack of time, I removed all the items that created my useless Tubeless system. The ball of tape, foam and valve that I had in my hand felt rather heavy. For grins I took out my scale and weighed the mess. 200 grams on the noise. With the 265 gram tubes in which I was going to replace, I decided to hold off on another attempt to go tubeless.
    Until I can figure out my mistake, I will live with the 130 gram combined difference.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
    The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.

    No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.
    Both systems work, all good there.

    Just fyi, no need for taping the foam with split tube though. Rim strip, foam, split tube, roll it.

    Nice sharp razor, and I get a nice clean cut, right next to the tire. Can't even tell it's there.

    Regardless, I do love tubeless.
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  38. #38
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    I'm waiting to hear back from Eclipse about whether they can make a fat tube.

    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I'm waiting to hear back from Eclipse about whether they can make a fat tube.
    $100 tube ha

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTrail View Post
    people have said that about tires. Now, to us, a $100 tire is cheap
    Slightly different, let me know when you find a $10-15 fat bike tire.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    $100 tube ha
    I'll be lugging my bike up and down a mountain for 24 hours in January. Come the 23rd hour, I'd happily pay more than that to lose well over 1 lb from my bike.
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  42. #42
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    Ozzy, followed your method for setting up my Marge Lites tubeless today. (27tpi Larry front, 27tpi Endo rear). Worked well from what I can tell. Haven't had a chance to ride it yet though.

    I am glad the previous owner of my house left a roll of laminate flooring foam. Finally found a use for it

    Thanks a ton!!!

    Decorative duct tape for a "rim strip" on my setup...figured why not.

    Last edited by sickmtbnutcase; 12-08-2012 at 06:24 PM.

  43. #43
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    Nice one !!! Well that's made the write up worthwhile already. So it's worked on wire bead tyres too then
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  44. #44
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    After spiking one tyre with a stick and when i went to put a tube in it i seen that the pressure has collapsed my foam i decided to try something different.

    Gorilla tape weighs a bit and its very messy leaving glue stuck everywhere.

    So i got 2 x 55m rolls of 3M Tensalized packing tape, basically wide stans tape.

    Also got some non-memory foam so it would not compact under pressure.

    To make it worthwhile and make sure it wasnt making the combo heavier i weighed each stage.

    Wheel as is with only gorilla rim tape and clear plastic was 1820g


    Rim tape removed, 1745g meaning my rim tape was 75g.... which was a bit surprising.


    New Vinyl rim tape installed and 1 wrap of 3M tape was 1795g, meaning my new vinyl tape is 50g per wheel.


    Blue 3M tape covers the vinyl 100% so its airtight.


    New non-memory foam fitted, 1845g.


    Taped right up and over the sides.


    Trimmed back tight to the bead with a sharp knife and excess removed.


    View of finish taping job, im excited as its turned out as i expected
    When the tyre pops on the bead the tape will be locked behind it similar to ghetto tubeless meaning the sealant or air cant escape down beside the tape.


    Total weight of 3 wraps of tape was 10g, bringing the total weight to 1855g meaning that the TOTAL tubeless conversion including the heavy vinyl rimstrip was 110g. The rimstrip could be done with the 3M blue tape for under 10g if you like blue as a colour.... so a 70g conversion is possible.
    Q-tube SL still weighs 220g, my new tubeless is 110g with this light tape.



    Conversion was easy, the longest time taken was cleaning the residual gorilla tape off... took about 1 hour of hard labour

    End result, 2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre was at the bead, at approx 13psi the first bead popped and around 15psi the other went on.

    Hopefully this is it dialled now.

    Happy Toobless.

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  45. #45
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    Nice work Ozzy. Where would I buy some of that 3M tape... and what do I ask for?
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  46. #46
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    Muzz, i searched all over for it, the US has it in loads of sizes including 72mm but the postage from RS Hughes in the US was $120 for 2 rolls of tape

    Element14 here in Oz does the 48mm and thats the only place i could find it here. They do free shipping on orders over $45 so i got 2 rolls and stuck 4 x $1.75 tape measures (can never find one in my house) on just to bump it over the freebie postage price.

    cheers.
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    Look forward to hearing how this new tape holds up over time

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    Maybe I missed it but how much Stan's are you using?

  49. #49
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    2 scoops, weighs 60g'ish. Same amount i was injecting into my Qtubes.
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  50. #50
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    Ozzy, this looks very promising but I have to ask: you really get away with just 2 scoops of Stans in this? I'm not sure that I'd trust less than 3, and I have no need to seal holes just cover the inner surface of the tire.

    For those of us NOT riding in the thorny outback this is still heavier than q-tubes (without sealant), but only nominally. I really wish someone could do some quanitifyable analysis on tubes vs no-tubes with fat-bike tires.
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  51. #51
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    Not understanding you calculations ? I have done this now 5 times and done the calcs everytime. Im only posting it up here to help others decide.

    My bare wheel is 1745g, setup tubeless is 1855g so 110g total for the tubeless setup. Q-tubes weigh 220g and thats without a rimstrip. How much are your rimstrips weighing ? add that to the 220g.

    Its well under half the weight of the lightest tube'd setup.

    If you want to add 2 scoops of stans its a total of 170g, even 3 scoops takes it to around 200g. I was adding 2 scoops to my Qtubes anyway as small punctures here are a PITA, ive been tubeless for 5 years on all my other bikes.... i couldnt go any longer with tubes in the fat wheels.

    Adding more stans only makes it last longer, 2 scoops is plenty for 2-3 months then just add some more. Theres no need to fill the wheel with it because if you get a stick puncture it only going to spit the lot of it on the trail anyway.
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  52. #52
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    A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams.

    Two things to note when comparing weighs of tubeless vs. tubed:

    In a tubeless setup the weight is closer to center, which means it affects acceleration less.
    Also the sealant is liquid, which is not the same as solid weight when it comes to acceleration.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams.
    Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.

    Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.

    But after my findings, im sure theres a lot of riders out there that are not even counting rim strips.... they are a shocking weight unless you have been careful with them.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.
    Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.

    By your most optimistic math:

    110 g of tubeless rim set-up + 170g (only 2 scoops!) of sealant = 280 g
    100 g of Surly rim strop + 220 Q-tube = 320 g

    Lighter? Yes. Half the weight? not even close... 10% is more like it.

    Plus I think your calculations are optimistic. I would not run a 3.7" tire tubeless with any less than 3 scoops. Basic geometry tells you that a 3.7" tire has twice the surface area of a 2.2 tire, meaning you should probably add about twice as much sealant. And you can make your own rimstrip (as I did) that is lighter than the Surly strip, I think mine is around 60 grams.

    Still the weights are comparable. For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned. Obviously for you puncture sealing is more critical. Different folks, different strokes.

    I want to know more about rolling resistance and ride quality of tubed vs tubeless. Positive impacts in these departments would compel me to give tubeless a try. Thanks for working through all the bugs for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned.
    Changing a flat would be no different really.

    In a tubeless setup, break the bead, remove valve stem, install tube.

    In a tubed setup, break the bead, remove old tube, install new tube.

    I do agree on the amount of sealant though. 2 scoops in such a big tire doesnt sound like it would be very effective. Thats how much sealant I use in 29x2.2 tires.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakie1999 View Post
    Changing a flat would be no different really.
    Except that you're likely to get wet, gooey and cold.
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  57. #57
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    This reminds me, I should clean out my AM/FR bike tires of the Stan's sealant... then I can post photos of Stan's Boogers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.

    By your most optimistic math:

    110 g of tubeless rim set-up + 170g (only 2 scoops!) of sealant = 280 g
    100 g of Surly rim strop + 220 Q-tube = 320 g

    Lighter? Yes. Half the weight? not even close... 10% is more like it.

    Plus I think your calculations are optimistic. I would not run a 3.7" tire tubeless with any less than 3 scoops. Basic geometry tells you that a 3.7" tire has twice the surface area of a 2.2 tire, meaning you should probably add about twice as much sealant. And you can make your own rimstrip (as I did) that is lighter than the Surly strip, I think mine is around 60 grams.

    Still the weights are comparable. For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned. Obviously for you puncture sealing is more critical. Different folks, different strokes.

    I want to know more about rolling resistance and ride quality of tubed vs tubeless. Positive impacts in these departments would compel me to give tubeless a try. Thanks for working through all the bugs for me
    I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).

    So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
    220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g

    not half, but pretty darn close.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).

    So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
    220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g

    not half, but pretty darn close.
    spot on ^^^

    Plus I was adding the sealant to my tubes anyway.

    170g of sealant would be near 1/4 of a litre.
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    I think you're right about the flat tire situation too, if you do get a rip big enough to need a tube put in, it should be easy enough to pop the valve out of the way, and stick a tube in. So, unless you're trying to not have to carry a spare tube, and rely on a patch kit, It's about the same, and a patch kit would be very difficult in gloves.
    Besides, If you're going tubeless, it should be very rare that you get a flat at all.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.
    The difference between liquid and solid is not 100% this or that, there are lots of factors like viscosity and friction (liquids still have some). The point is that when you accelerate from standstill and the tire rotates 1/4 turns for example, the tube will rotate the exact same amount at the same time. Liquid will gradually pick up the speed and spread out to the tread wall, but at that point you're rolling already and weight location (far from center) isn't so critical. When you've reached the speed you keep, rolling weight matters very little. Going uphill you of course pull all the weight with you, but that includes you, all your gear and the bike regardless of where the weight is.

    It's not like liquid weight has zero effect on acceleration, but the effect is reduced compared to solid weight, so I think they can not be compared gram for gram. I'll rather take 100 grams of sealant in my tires instead of 100 grams of rubber.

    Going further would require a lot of testing to see how much exactly the difference is. All I say is that there is a slight difference in the favor of liquid.

  62. #62
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Do you know how long it took to find this thread again? Search is a fail. I'm carsick from scrolling. Worth it, redoing my tubeless, and I want that tape.

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    Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.

    The tape looks like its done an awesome job.
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    Yup, same here (thanks to this thread). Have run some very low pressure for snow. bottomed out on the rim a few times with no ill effects. No burps. Essentially perfect so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.

    The tape looks like its done an awesome job.
    Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?
    No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.

    Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.

    You tear the old stuff off to replace it and spend an hour plus getting glue off your rim seat/bead of each wheel.

    All 4 sets of wheels i have now are tubeless with the strapping tape and doing beautifully.

    IMO its terrible stuff but YMMV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.

    Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.

    You tear the old stuff off to replace it and spend an hour plus getting glue off your rim seat/bead of each wheel.

    All 4 sets of wheels i have now are tubeless with the strapping tape and doing beautifully.

    IMO its terrible stuff but YMMV.
    Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?

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    The only tape I could find close to suitable in middle-earth was called BearTape (I think it's the same as gorilla), with a strip on the left side, right side and in the middle. It weighted in pretty close to a surly 90g rim strip, but the sealant was coming out through the cut outs and unused spoke holes it needed another couple wraps to seal. I thought I was losing some weight with my 18g of nylon and packing foam then the tape went on
    Blue tape looks to be the ticket.

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    I just taped my Surly rimstrip on the rim with Stan's tape. It might be a 50g heavier solution than without the rimstrip, but I get to keep the cool blue rimstrip.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?

    If you are in the US you can get it from RS Hughes in any width, i could only get it in 48mm here so that was the width i used.
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  71. #71
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    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    I was able to get my HuDu to seat up on a Rolling Darryl with just gorilla tape. I had to put a tube in, seat the beads, unseat one side, pull the tube out, and then was able to get the other bead to seat with a compressor... it wasn't exactly easy, as I did have to kind of pull up on the sidewall to get it to pop on... a pair of extra hands helps.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    I put Larry's on my Daryls. Layer of foam, then Standard Gorilla overalpped for width. Do not put tape in the bead area. Inflate w/compressor Until it beads. Fill through valve w/ syringe. Has not leaked a pound since January.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    The Hudu's were a bit problematic for me on the Holy RD's, figure out which side is giving you the most grief seat that side with a tube then pull it out and seat the other. If that doesn't work you can always grab the hairspray and lighter if you don't have a compressor.

  75. #75
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    Been reading this thread with interest. I have just bought an On-One fatty and at some point want to go tubeless. I'm a bit torn now between this method with tape and foam or the split tube method.

    I have just found some 48mm 3M 8898 strapping tape but it's £32 a roll!

    I have a question about seating the valve when using the foam. When you put the valve thorugh and tighten up the nut does the valve base seal agaist the tape ok? Do you not run the risk of tightening it and pulling the valve through the tape?

  76. #76
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    I would be having another look, im taking it you are in the UK by the currency quoted

    Here's a better price for starters Tapes | Farnell United Kingdom | Results
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    Couple questions for you Ozzy...

    Would it be possible for you to post the manufacturers part number on the 55mm wide 3M tape you found? Might make Google searches for each region more effective.

    The "vinyl rim tape" you mention... is this just some sort of non-stick vinyl strapping?

    The second attempt using the 3M tape and vinyl strip used no foam whatsoever, correct?

    Thanks for the help... appreciate all the documentation and answers you have posted.
    Just keep pedaling...

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    Here you go - **Scotch® Film Strapping Tape 8898 Blue, 48 mm x 55 m, 24 per case Bulk

    The vinyl rims strips are cut from a roll of vinyl cloth at a craft shop, vinyl that is used in dressmaking, basically coloured waterproof cloth.

    The second attempt, and third and fourth i always use 10mm EVA foam. This non memory foam makes it easy to inflate tyres with a floor pump.

    Good luck with your conversion.
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    Awesome.... thanks a lot!!
    Just keep pedaling...

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    I have just done a little experiment tonight successfully.

    I have used ripstop nylon as the rim strip, weighs about 1-2g for 2 wraps, feels like feather weight, my scales wont even register.

    Then 2 wraps of 8898 tape @ less than 10g.

    The ultralight HuDu was inflated on the margelite rim for a week at 30psi with a tube, i deflated and took them off, cleaned the old tape off the rim then did the new lightweight taping, put the tyre on with a tube then inflated... popping both beads.

    Carefully removed 1 bead seal and the tube then screwed in a tubeless valve with 1 bead still seated.

    I then put some soapy water on the remaining unseated bead, set the wheel horizontally on a bucket (so the unsealed bead was being forced down with gravity and inflated it with a track pump popping the other bead and sealing the tyre onto the rim successfully.

    So tomorrow when i get time i will inject 60-80ml of stans into the tyre through the valve stem and see if i can seal it.

    So the complete rimstrip with tape is around 10-15g in total.

    Will keep yous updated when i add the stans and try to get the tyre sealed.

    My whole idea with this is as an out and out race wheelset.
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Got a 907 built up for my wife and daughter a week ago and it flatted yesterday so I decided to take it tubeless like my surly.
    The HDs on Rolling Darrel's sure didn't take to the Getto tubeless setup as quickly as my Marge Lites with Escalators. Those have been set up for six months with no issues. I unseated one side to check the Stan's fill and it was still pretty good. Added one scoop and seated it back up with a compressor. Not even a "Stan's ball" to take out.
    Back to the HDs... Split and mounted a tube over the surly rim strip, set on the tire, doused it all with soapy water, and tried to use my compressor to fill through the valveless stem. No luck. Wrapped a strap around the tire to push it out some on the rim and it finally aired up after giggling and rotating the tire a bit. Extra hands would make it easier. Quickly put the valve core back in and pumped it up to 30. Never got the Pop I got with the escalators as they seated on the rim but it looks like it is seated properly and is holding pressure.
    The extra width on the rolling Darrel made it a lot harder to air up compared to the Marge lites as there is a lot more space for air to escape.

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    Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.

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  84. #84
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    Ordered supplies to go tubeless-

    orange seal tubeless valves- I like the larger rubber foot on these but it made me think (after I bought them) that I could have made my own from some blown 700cc tubes...

    Plan on using Tyvek Tape to seal up the rims, no foam, Stan's sealant, and some 3M reflective tape on the Surly rimstrip.

    Will update when I get the supplies and get it done!

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.
    After a couple rides, wife hasn't noticed a difference. I think she's still in the honeymoon stage with this bike and hasn't found any quirks to mention... yet.

  86. #86
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    The 8898 blue tape is a bit hard to find by the roll rather than the case . Here are the 2 links(by the roll) already mentioned in this thread.
    The 72 (2 7/8")
    Welcome to R.S.Hughes

    The 48mm (1 7/8")
    3M Scotch 8898 Synthetic Rubber Film Strapping Adhesive Tape, 4.6 mil Thick, 60.14 yds Length x 1-7/8" Width, Blue: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

    And here is a link to 2" x 165' Tyvek tape that some people use with success

    Amazon.com : Tyvek Sheathing Tape 2" x 165' : Patio, Lawn & Garden


    Also if you are using glue, rubber cement (Elmers $1.49) is not quite the same as vulcanizing fluid. The Elmers type stuff is made to peel off paper. Either will work but the tire specific stuff has other additives to cause cross linking and it sticks better. However, if they sell it at an auto store (Napa, Autozone) or farm store (Farm Fleet, Tractor supply) it may be called rubber cement. They sell Slime brand "rubber cement" made specifically for tires/tubes 8 oz for $5.99. Buying online incurs shipping fee to include "Hazmat" label.
    Last edited by k.b.; 10-06-2013 at 05:31 AM.

  87. #87
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    Supplies showed up yesterday so I went to work-

    Clownshoe with Bud tire
    Removed the surly rimstrip, cleaned it off and put a strip of reflective tape down it and put it back on the rim.

    Ran 1 strip of 2" tyvek tape down each side of the rim (not fully in contact with the side of the rim) then I ran a stripe down the center of the rim.

    Put the tube back in and pumped her up to 30 psig, left it in for maybe 15 minutes. Left one side of the tire on the rim if felt like the bead was set. Pulled the tube out and put in the orange seal tubeless valve, used the o-rings.

    I messed around for probably an hour trying to get the bead to set- decided after 30 minutes to put the Stan's in since I didnt want to have to break the bead again... Using a strap and a lot of luck I finally got the bastard to air up. Did the stan's shake- couldnt get the tire to hold air so I put it on the bike and rode it around and that seemed to do the trick- aired it up super tight and left it overnight.

    This AM the b#tch was flat... pulled off the tire and washed everything off. Going back for round two when I get home.

    I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too.

    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??
    Did you use some soapy water to see where air was leaking out? Its hard to diagnose if you don't know where its leaking.

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    No, soapy water... thought I had it last night- Will use tonight though so I know if I have it sealed up!

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    Yeah even if it seems everyhing is sealed up and working well, the last thing I always do is spray it down with soapy water to see if there are any slow leaks.

    The sealant may just have not gotten a chance to seal the bead well, you might just need to add more sealant, shake it around a little more and see if it holds air. You may have jumped the gun a little by tearing it all down.

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    Nothing better than morning rage! Guess it just gives me more practice so my front wheel goes smoothly!

  92. #92
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    Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.
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  93. #93
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    One place you really want to tape up is the holes on the bead near the weld seam on the Surly rims. Otherwise you will be trying to plug those with sealant and since the rim has hollow sections it might take ages and way too much sealant.

    I've been running Marge Lites with Husker Dus and Escalators for a year now and at the very beginning I tried to seal them with just rubber against the rim bead area. I ended up having lots of slow leaks when the tire was flexing around and concluded that I would have to use a lot of sealant to have them eventually seal so instead I went with a split tube method.

    I did experiment with wide gorilla tape that was placed from rim edge to rim edge where the tire had tape between it and the rim without direct contact for the tire to the rim. I found that the gorilla tape is too sticky and difficult to get into place without crimps around the bead area. Those crimps usually resulted in slow leaks, just like the bare rim.
    Wide tape that is easier to get in place and doesn't leave crimps or other leak prone areas might be more successful.

    I built up a Clownshoe wheelset for the same Husker and Escalator tires and opted for split tube directly without messing around with other methods. I will be running low pressures on the Clownshoe wheelset for the winter so small burps and slow leaks with a ton of sealant was something I wanted to avoid.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too.

    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??
    I am assuming that you are using Tyvek tape only in order to save weight and that maybe you were able to get it for little or no cost. I really like the gorilla tape and I ran it all the way to the outside of the rim (trimming off excess on outside after pushing it down into the bead area). I've tried tape that is more slick and haven't liked the results. I just put new tape on mine last week because I drilled out some additional holes last week. It airs up and seals perfectly. I have absolutely no issues as mentioned in the earlier post about "crimps" in the tape in the bead area but I pull the tape extremely tight.

    I use these down to below 2 psi at times during the winter with no issues.


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    After your "Stan's shake" make sure you lay the wheel horizontal (I set mine on my soapy water bucket) as it allows the stans to settle to the tire/rim interface. Visit it about 4 times with 15 minute intervals to give it another shake and set it back horizontal on the opposite side. I've had great luck doing HuDu's and Escalators on Marge Lites and Rolling Darryls.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.
    I'll second that... this is what gave me trouble first off. What I did is take a hot-glue gun and filled the suckers up. Worked perfectly.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  97. #97
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    Thanks everyone for the help! I cant wait to leave work to get back at it-

  98. #98
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    Dont think the tyvek tape is the right stuff for the job. Got home wrapped it all around the outside of the rim and aired it up- getting better at the bead snapping- soaped it up and it was leaking in one spot on the bead and in just about every rim hole- too much. I pulled it all off - tyvek tape sucks to remove btw, tears very easily.

    Split tube or Gorilla tape?? Pro's and Con's... I assume that the gorilla tape is lighter and the split tube is easier- which method is more robust?

    I have the tubeless valves so really I am going to go with gorilla tape- although I would prefer schrader valves over prestra... blah going gorilla- thanks again for all your help!

    After reading the thread better I think 8898 tape instead of gorilla- for now though I am going to put the tube back in so I can freakin ride my bike!

  99. #99
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    Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.

    Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.

    Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!
    Oh come on ozzy. Most of the fails are people who aren't doing what works. They are trying to skimp and then it doesn't work and it goes down in the books as a fail.

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