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  1. #1
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    All this chatter of tubeless and countless threads, i myself have had 3-4 attempts but never using the "build up the valley" method.

    So the missus asked what i was doing today, i said "a bit of stuff outside" she said she would not be home all day and she would pick the kids up from school

    Perfect opportunity for for Toobless Toosday.... though i didnt count on it taking me 5 hours.

    Ok i used Laminate flooring underlay for the foam, its plastic backed and not the lightest but its a medium density foam. I measured the "valley" and cut it into strips progressively getting wider.





    1 wrap around with gorilla tape, stretched and made sure it reached the bead.




    Marge lites.
    Rimstrip = 45g
    Foam = 50g
    Tape = 45g
    So the rim strip stayed there meaning a 90g gain for losing a 220g Q-Tube superlite = -130g
    I have not added sealant to the Marge Lites yet as i will not be riding them until i have got the others sorted.



    This is where i was gobsmacked, i fitted the tyre, gave them a quick once round with some soapy water, gave it 1-2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre move towards the bead and started bubbling



    10-12 pumps later the first bead popped, then the second at about 15psi, i have pumped them to 20psi and they still seem like they are holding air with no sealant.



    Awesome, cant believe how easy that was, most time was taken cutting foam. Thanks to all who have posted their tubeless conversions.... if you see some of you mod here, i probably copied you. Cheers
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  2. #2
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    Ok set number 2.

    These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed.
    These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.

    I removed the old rimstrip and added the foam and new gorilla tape, total gained was 45g more from what they were, the original rimstrip could have been lighter but nevertheless 220g q-tube superlite minus 45g = 175g saved (rimstrip is additional 55g) per wheel. Both wheels have had 70ml of stans added.

    First thing was to block the holes that would let the air escape into the rim and out the butted joint. Filled with epoxy metal putty and a smear of loctite on the joint.




    Same as before, filled the valley with foam. Then taped up.







    These went up with the same 1-2 pumps but did not pop onto the bead, thats why i will try and sort these out first as the other wheels are 100%. I cant burp the bead or let any air out until they are nearly flat but tonights ride will make things clearer. They are currently holding air (after stans blocked about 10 holes from thorns) at 10psi and i will drop that gradually down to about 7psi for testing purposes.

    Hopefully all works well and they stay on the rims, cheers for tips

    4 wheels now tubeless !!!!

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  3. #3
    nothing to see here
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    Nice work. Looking forward to the ride impressions.
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  4. #4
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    Cheers Stevo, If i survive the run tonight i'll post how the Trialtechs go later, the Marge Lites are as good as perfect, the bead is solid on them.
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  5. #5
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    Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully.

    One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt

    I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.
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  6. #6
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    I have saved 260g on the Marge/Buds wheelset.

    And 350g on the TrialTech/HuDu's wheelset. (sealant added after weigh in)

    With the new 1080 cassette i weighed my bike in the high 24lbs today, the new "lite" HuDu's i just got are saving me 130g a tyre too, so when its gets the next weigh in i might have a surprise
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  7. #7
    All fat, all the time.
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    Nicely done! Enjoy alot less flats

  8. #8
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    Cheers shark, Ive been tubeless for 5 years on other bikes, if i get anywhere near the result ive had with them i'll be super happy.
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  9. #9
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    Great write up and nice images. I'm tubeless on my non drilled rolling Darryl's + nates. Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam? She's on marge lites and will soon be running Dillingers ...I'd like to make this tubeless for her.
    Thanks again.

  10. #10
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    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    Whatever floats your bike, dude

  11. #11
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    Very nice and thurough.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    correct. all i did was do three layers of gorilla tape (left/right/center), melt the valve hole out w a soldering iron and put air in w a compressor. providing that seals up ok i then take out the valve core and huck some stans in and shake.
    so far its worked flawlessly on 3 efforts on rolling darryls W/O cutouts.

  13. #13
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    Hey;

    SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!



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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    Hey;

    SUPERB, clear, concise write-up with great images, Ozz. Not the first, but likely the best!



    -
    yup by far the ozzyiest (just made that up ) if i understand the 1st post correctly regarding the absence of a tube it requires more air volume to match a tubed setup in order to have the same ride feel yes??

  15. #15
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    I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    I post this in the other thread but i think its very important to inspect the bead of the tire for any inperfections and remove them with sand paper or if you are careful a die grinder. I found that out the hard way after I had leaks on a spilt tube method.
    Very True...

    Of ALL of the the surfaces involved. Car race tires are the same way. The beads are so stiff and with little extra rubber to absorb junk, that if anything gets in there (casting flashing, bead bits, little stones, rim corrosion or nicks, whatever) it will leak, and race tires already leak like crazy anyway. Flat every morning, sometimes, if you don't pay close attention when mounting them.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ok set number 2.

    These have been a *****, i have tried these 3-4 times with no luck.Hopefully things have changed.
    These are 47mm Trialtech SL's. They already had a rimstrip weighing 55g as there was a full wrap of gorilla tape on them from the last unsucessful tubeless attempt.

    I removed the old rimstrip and added the foam and new gorilla tape, total gained was 45g more from what they were, the original rimstrip could have been lighter but nevertheless 220g q-tube superlite minus 45g = 175g saved (rimstrip is additional 55g) per wheel. Both wheels have had 70ml of stans added.

    First thing was to block the holes that would let the air escape into the rim and out the butted joint. Filled with epoxy metal putty and a smear of loctite on the joint.




    Same as before, filled the valley with foam. Then taped up.







    These went up with the same 1-2 pumps but did not pop onto the bead, thats why i will try and sort these out first as the other wheels are 100%. I cant burp the bead or let any air out until they are nearly flat but tonights ride will make things clearer. They are currently holding air (after stans blocked about 10 holes from thorns) at 10psi and i will drop that gradually down to about 7psi for testing purposes.

    Hopefully all works well and they stay on the rims, cheers for tips

    4 wheels now tubeless !!!!

    Nice work dude!! Persistence pays! You will absolutely love riding tubeless on your fatbike. I think the benefits are totally magnified by the big wheels... Especially the aspect of rolling resistance. You will feel it immediately.

    Let us know how it goes!

    Cheers,
    MG

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Just did a 35km loop, wheels performed beautifully.

    One thing that has surprised me, i usually ran these wheels/tyres at 9psi on dirt

    I started the ride with 10psi in the tyres (digital gauge), i took the gauge with me to drop air out as i went.... wrong. I had to add a little bit making both tyres to 11psi to feel the same as they did previously with tubes fitted.
    You'll likely start to get a feel for the fact that you can go lower and lower with your pressure as your confidence in the tubeless setup grows. You'll start to understand that feeling the rim gently tapping the ground every once and a while isn't the worst thing in the world when you're running tubeless (unless you're riding in really rocky terrain).

  19. #19
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    Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?
    Fat and Single

  20. #20
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    thanks for the post..

    I've got Large Marge Rims and the 27tpi Larry and Endos.. would these combinations be tubeless compatible? What's the process?

  21. #21
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    "Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"

    I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruitr1 View Post
    "Just used gorilla tape and Stan's but no center filler. What is the reason needed for the center foam?"

    I was wondering the same?? What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?
    As far as I understand it, the foam really just helps with mounting and first taking air. Without the foam, there would be too much room for air to escape between the tire and rim when first airing up.

  23. #23
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    Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivrmutt View Post
    Seriously, all that work for 1/2 lbs? I just don't get it.
    Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Loosing the weight is is very nice side-effect but the whole concept of tubeless is puncture and pinch flat elimination and also ride quality.
    Agreed.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DubzOxford View Post
    Does this method work for folding bead tires or only wire bead?
    Both sets i used are folding beads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    So if I read that right you didn't put any tape under the foam, just over it? And the 'contact patch' between the rim and tape is more or less just the bead shelf??
    The Marge lites have a small line of tape on either side holding the clear sparkly polythene rimstrip in place but in short the answer is yes, both wheels have the gorilla tape stretch fitted the full width and its only contacting the bead shelf
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by easterntide View Post
    What is the reason needed for the center foam?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruitr1 View Post
    What is the purpose of the filler, center foam or any foam at all?? Seems like you could just use the existing rim strip or no rim strip and just run 3 strips of gorilla tape around rim carefully covering up to bead edge on rim as pictured in this thread and be done?
    I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead

    The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.

    Filling the "valley" with foam stops the bead falling into the valley and forces a tighter fit so once you start inflating, the bead has already got a semi-seal on the built up foam and the slighest bit of pressure and its moving towards the bead ready to seal. Trying to inflate them without this foam is a painful job, the tyres can be easily changed out and inflated again tubeless with a track pump.

    Non of the fat tyres are meant to be inflated tubeless and the QC on them doesnt seem flash, also apart from UMA rims i dont think there is any that are meant to be used for tubeless either.

    There loads of different ways of doing this and doing it without foam might be as easy for you with you tyre/rim combo. I have tried a few times with the Trialtech/HuDu and also on my GFS/larry-endos without success, now this time the foam has made all the difference.
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  28. #28
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    What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    I did this way because it worked successfully on other members here, theres plenty of other threads already posted that i copied to do these. It made sense and i could see exactly what advantage it would give but i am still shocked at the ease they inflated, 1-2 pumps and the tyre bead was touching the rim bead

    The main reason is fat tyres are super "baggy" and actually fall off the rim, no tyre levers needed with these getting the tyre bead up on or near the rim bead to start building pressure is the harderst part and the foam does this for you.

    Filling the "valley" with foam stops the bead falling into the valley and forces a tighter fit so once you start inflating, the bead has already got a semi-seal on the built up foam and the slighest bit of pressure and its moving towards the bead ready to seal. Trying to inflate them without this foam is a painful job, the tyres can be easily changed out and inflated again tubeless with a track pump.

    Non of the fat tyres are meant to be inflated tubeless and the QC on them doesnt seem flash, also apart from UMA rims i dont think there is any that are meant to be used for tubeless either.

    There loads of different ways of doing this and doing it without foam might be as easy for you with you tyre/rim combo. I have tried a few times with the Trialtech/HuDu and also on my GFS/larry-endos without success, now this time the foam has made all the difference.
    Great thread on your technique; well executed---I'd try it but I seem to be getting by OK ghetto-style w/o the foam. It might be worth mentioning that when using this method to be sure to use "closed-cell" foam; there are "open-cell" weather-stripping tapes and they'd act just like a sponge if the wheel was immersed---talk about heavy!
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  30. #30
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    Thanks Ozzy for posting your efforts.

    Well explained and must say the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by boogman View Post
    What did you use as valve if no split tube? Thanks
    I don't think he is using a valve as that's not accounted for in the weight

  32. #32
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    No way, 10g valves are too heavy

    For the two sets of wheels i used 3 proper tubeless valves and 1 made from a tube.

    If you have old tubes with valves that have removable cores just cut round the valve and leave a 10mm circle all around, its just as good bought valves and in a lot of cases cheaper too as the valves are about $10 each .
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sand Rat View Post
    the lighting really shows off your handy work; (by design?...or luck?)
    It was stinking hot outside, just lucky lighting as i did all the taping inside in aircon'd comfort.
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  34. #34
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    Nice work!

    So now, just to play devils advocate for a moment, why Gorilla tape as opposed to split tube?

    I love G tape (the most badass duct tape ever made!), but it is heavy as far as duct tape goes, nice and dense, but heavy. Yeah, not *that* heavy, okay, relax out there...

    The reason I like the split tube is the extra room it takes up and the bead socket, as well as the extra sealing around the bead. Also makes you not have to go around and seal all the tiny drain holes in the rim.

    Sure, the sealant takes care of the sealing, but if it has help, it'd seem to be a good thing.

    Think bead socket room reduction ala Stan's rims with their BST, mixed with the butyl wrapped beads on the current crop of "tubeless ready" tires, and you can see what my thrust here is.

    I also have a theory working off of Mikesee's issues with thinking the beads are slipping under heavy load/low pressures, that the butyl wrap on the bead will help hold it more tightly than just the aluminum rim.

    All good, just discussing relative merits and potential downfalls/benefits of both concepts.

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  35. #35
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    Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
    The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.

    No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.
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  36. #36
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    My Surly Cycling cap is off to those of you that were able to make your Holy Rolling Darryl’s tubeless. I thought about going tubeless since day one when I got my Neco. I scanned the pages of the fat bike forum looking for suggestions and final decided to make the plunge this morning. I grabbed a roll of Gorilla tape, a set of Stans tubeless valves, some foam to fill the valley, and started off on my unknown venture. Everything went just as planned, I put the final strip of tape across the rim, put my valve in, mounted my 120tpi Knard and to the compressor I went. I attempted to fill the tire with absolutely no luck. No matter what I did I could not get the tire to fill with air. In frustration and lack of time, I removed all the items that created my useless Tubeless system. The ball of tape, foam and valve that I had in my hand felt rather heavy. For grins I took out my scale and weighed the mess. 200 grams on the noise. With the 265 gram tubes in which I was going to replace, I decided to hold off on another attempt to go tubeless.
    Until I can figure out my mistake, I will live with the 130 gram combined difference.
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ive always been tubeless with tape and valves, and the foam in the middle make its easy to inflate with a floor pump. Tyres are easily changed and on the off chance of a puncture that doesnt seal up its as simple as removing the valve and put a tube in.
    The main reason to tape it up is holding the foam in place, if i was running a split tube i would still have to have some kind of tape for the foam, it might as well be gorilla tape and forget the tube.

    No tube hanging out the side of the tyre would make it a neater looking job too i would think.
    Both systems work, all good there.

    Just fyi, no need for taping the foam with split tube though. Rim strip, foam, split tube, roll it.

    Nice sharp razor, and I get a nice clean cut, right next to the tire. Can't even tell it's there.

    Regardless, I do love tubeless.
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  38. #38
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    I'm waiting to hear back from Eclipse about whether they can make a fat tube.

    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    I'm waiting to hear back from Eclipse about whether they can make a fat tube.
    $100 tube ha

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTrail View Post
    people have said that about tires. Now, to us, a $100 tire is cheap
    Slightly different, let me know when you find a $10-15 fat bike tire.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    $100 tube ha
    I'll be lugging my bike up and down a mountain for 24 hours in January. Come the 23rd hour, I'd happily pay more than that to lose well over 1 lb from my bike.
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  42. #42
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    Ozzy, followed your method for setting up my Marge Lites tubeless today. (27tpi Larry front, 27tpi Endo rear). Worked well from what I can tell. Haven't had a chance to ride it yet though.

    I am glad the previous owner of my house left a roll of laminate flooring foam. Finally found a use for it

    Thanks a ton!!!

    Decorative duct tape for a "rim strip" on my setup...figured why not.

    Last edited by sickmtbnutcase; 12-08-2012 at 06:24 PM.

  43. #43
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    Nice one !!! Well that's made the write up worthwhile already. So it's worked on wire bead tyres too then
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  44. #44
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    After spiking one tyre with a stick and when i went to put a tube in it i seen that the pressure has collapsed my foam i decided to try something different.

    Gorilla tape weighs a bit and its very messy leaving glue stuck everywhere.

    So i got 2 x 55m rolls of 3M Tensalized packing tape, basically wide stans tape.

    Also got some non-memory foam so it would not compact under pressure.

    To make it worthwhile and make sure it wasnt making the combo heavier i weighed each stage.

    Wheel as is with only gorilla rim tape and clear plastic was 1820g


    Rim tape removed, 1745g meaning my rim tape was 75g.... which was a bit surprising.


    New Vinyl rim tape installed and 1 wrap of 3M tape was 1795g, meaning my new vinyl tape is 50g per wheel.


    Blue 3M tape covers the vinyl 100% so its airtight.


    New non-memory foam fitted, 1845g.


    Taped right up and over the sides.


    Trimmed back tight to the bead with a sharp knife and excess removed.


    View of finish taping job, im excited as its turned out as i expected
    When the tyre pops on the bead the tape will be locked behind it similar to ghetto tubeless meaning the sealant or air cant escape down beside the tape.


    Total weight of 3 wraps of tape was 10g, bringing the total weight to 1855g meaning that the TOTAL tubeless conversion including the heavy vinyl rimstrip was 110g. The rimstrip could be done with the 3M blue tape for under 10g if you like blue as a colour.... so a 70g conversion is possible.
    Q-tube SL still weighs 220g, my new tubeless is 110g with this light tape.



    Conversion was easy, the longest time taken was cleaning the residual gorilla tape off... took about 1 hour of hard labour

    End result, 2 pumps with the track pump and the tyre was at the bead, at approx 13psi the first bead popped and around 15psi the other went on.

    Hopefully this is it dialled now.

    Happy Toobless.

    Trek 9.9 Superfly SL
    FM190 Fatty
    Indy Fab Deluxe 29
    Pivot Vault CX
    Cervelo R3 Disc

  45. #45
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    Nice work Ozzy. Where would I buy some of that 3M tape... and what do I ask for?
    Cheers
    FatMuz
    2016 Evil The Following
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  46. #46
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    Muzz, i searched all over for it, the US has it in loads of sizes including 72mm but the postage from RS Hughes in the US was $120 for 2 rolls of tape

    Element14 here in Oz does the 48mm and thats the only place i could find it here. They do free shipping on orders over $45 so i got 2 rolls and stuck 4 x $1.75 tape measures (can never find one in my house) on just to bump it over the freebie postage price.

    cheers.
    Trek 9.9 Superfly SL
    FM190 Fatty
    Indy Fab Deluxe 29
    Pivot Vault CX
    Cervelo R3 Disc

  47. #47
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    Look forward to hearing how this new tape holds up over time

  48. #48
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    Maybe I missed it but how much Stan's are you using?

  49. #49
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    2 scoops, weighs 60g'ish. Same amount i was injecting into my Qtubes.
    Trek 9.9 Superfly SL
    FM190 Fatty
    Indy Fab Deluxe 29
    Pivot Vault CX
    Cervelo R3 Disc

  50. #50
    viva la v-brakes!
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    Ozzy, this looks very promising but I have to ask: you really get away with just 2 scoops of Stans in this? I'm not sure that I'd trust less than 3, and I have no need to seal holes just cover the inner surface of the tire.

    For those of us NOT riding in the thorny outback this is still heavier than q-tubes (without sealant), but only nominally. I really wish someone could do some quanitifyable analysis on tubes vs no-tubes with fat-bike tires.
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    I have a car. I made a choice. I ride my bike.

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