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  1. #51
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    Not understanding you calculations ? I have done this now 5 times and done the calcs everytime. Im only posting it up here to help others decide.

    My bare wheel is 1745g, setup tubeless is 1855g so 110g total for the tubeless setup. Q-tubes weigh 220g and thats without a rimstrip. How much are your rimstrips weighing ? add that to the 220g.

    Its well under half the weight of the lightest tube'd setup.

    If you want to add 2 scoops of stans its a total of 170g, even 3 scoops takes it to around 200g. I was adding 2 scoops to my Qtubes anyway as small punctures here are a PITA, ive been tubeless for 5 years on all my other bikes.... i couldnt go any longer with tubes in the fat wheels.

    Adding more stans only makes it last longer, 2 scoops is plenty for 2-3 months then just add some more. Theres no need to fill the wheel with it because if you get a stick puncture it only going to spit the lot of it on the trail anyway.
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  2. #52
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    A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams.

    Two things to note when comparing weighs of tubeless vs. tubed:

    In a tubeless setup the weight is closer to center, which means it affects acceleration less.
    Also the sealant is liquid, which is not the same as solid weight when it comes to acceleration.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul Lumikko View Post
    A Surly rim strip weighs over 100 grams.
    Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.

    Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.

    But after my findings, im sure theres a lot of riders out there that are not even counting rim strips.... they are a shocking weight unless you have been careful with them.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Even with the lightest rim strip configuration, tubeless with this 3M tape, Vinyl rimstrip and foam is still half the weight.
    Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.

    By your most optimistic math:

    110 g of tubeless rim set-up + 170g (only 2 scoops!) of sealant = 280 g
    100 g of Surly rim strop + 220 Q-tube = 320 g

    Lighter? Yes. Half the weight? not even close... 10% is more like it.

    Plus I think your calculations are optimistic. I would not run a 3.7" tire tubeless with any less than 3 scoops. Basic geometry tells you that a 3.7" tire has twice the surface area of a 2.2 tire, meaning you should probably add about twice as much sealant. And you can make your own rimstrip (as I did) that is lighter than the Surly strip, I think mine is around 60 grams.

    Still the weights are comparable. For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned. Obviously for you puncture sealing is more critical. Different folks, different strokes.

    I want to know more about rolling resistance and ride quality of tubed vs tubeless. Positive impacts in these departments would compel me to give tubeless a try. Thanks for working through all the bugs for me
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned.
    Changing a flat would be no different really.

    In a tubeless setup, break the bead, remove valve stem, install tube.

    In a tubed setup, break the bead, remove old tube, install new tube.

    I do agree on the amount of sealant though. 2 scoops in such a big tire doesnt sound like it would be very effective. Thats how much sealant I use in 29x2.2 tires.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fakie1999 View Post
    Changing a flat would be no different really.
    Except that you're likely to get wet, gooey and cold.
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  7. #57
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    This reminds me, I should clean out my AM/FR bike tires of the Stan's sealant... then I can post photos of Stan's Boogers.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FishMan473 View Post
    Ozzy, again I think you are coming up with a good system here. BUT, I don't see how you can claim its "half the weight" of a tubed system. Maybe if you have a tube with sealant in it, which for your purposes may be necessary, but for me, and most fatbikers, is not.

    By your most optimistic math:

    110 g of tubeless rim set-up + 170g (only 2 scoops!) of sealant = 280 g
    100 g of Surly rim strop + 220 Q-tube = 320 g

    Lighter? Yes. Half the weight? not even close... 10% is more like it.

    Plus I think your calculations are optimistic. I would not run a 3.7" tire tubeless with any less than 3 scoops. Basic geometry tells you that a 3.7" tire has twice the surface area of a 2.2 tire, meaning you should probably add about twice as much sealant. And you can make your own rimstrip (as I did) that is lighter than the Surly strip, I think mine is around 60 grams.

    Still the weights are comparable. For me, the ease of changing a flat in sub-freezing conditions with gloves on seems higher with tubes than it would for tubeless, and that factor overrides a few grams of weight plus or minus, as far as I am concerned. Obviously for you puncture sealing is more critical. Different folks, different strokes.

    I want to know more about rolling resistance and ride quality of tubed vs tubeless. Positive impacts in these departments would compel me to give tubeless a try. Thanks for working through all the bugs for me
    I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).

    So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
    220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g

    not half, but pretty darn close.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I think he was saying 170g is total setup with 60g of sealant(2 scoops).

    So, 110g of valve,tape and foam + 60g of sealant = 170g
    220g tube + 100g rim strip = 320g

    not half, but pretty darn close.
    spot on ^^^

    Plus I was adding the sealant to my tubes anyway.

    170g of sealant would be near 1/4 of a litre.
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  10. #60
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    I think you're right about the flat tire situation too, if you do get a rip big enough to need a tube put in, it should be easy enough to pop the valve out of the way, and stick a tube in. So, unless you're trying to not have to carry a spare tube, and rely on a patch kit, It's about the same, and a patch kit would be very difficult in gloves.
    Besides, If you're going tubeless, it should be very rare that you get a flat at all.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Saul im not 100% on your theory of rolling water, at a certain speed all the liquid gets centrifugally displaced around the worst place there is.... being the inside of the tread wall.
    The difference between liquid and solid is not 100% this or that, there are lots of factors like viscosity and friction (liquids still have some). The point is that when you accelerate from standstill and the tire rotates 1/4 turns for example, the tube will rotate the exact same amount at the same time. Liquid will gradually pick up the speed and spread out to the tread wall, but at that point you're rolling already and weight location (far from center) isn't so critical. When you've reached the speed you keep, rolling weight matters very little. Going uphill you of course pull all the weight with you, but that includes you, all your gear and the bike regardless of where the weight is.

    It's not like liquid weight has zero effect on acceleration, but the effect is reduced compared to solid weight, so I think they can not be compared gram for gram. I'll rather take 100 grams of sealant in my tires instead of 100 grams of rubber.

    Going further would require a lot of testing to see how much exactly the difference is. All I say is that there is a slight difference in the favor of liquid.

  12. #62
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Do you know how long it took to find this thread again? Search is a fail. I'm carsick from scrolling. Worth it, redoing my tubeless, and I want that tape.

  13. #63
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    Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.

    The tape looks like its done an awesome job.
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  14. #64
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    Yup, same here (thanks to this thread). Have run some very low pressure for snow. bottomed out on the rim a few times with no ill effects. No burps. Essentially perfect so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Schott, both my sets are still tight as ****. No leakage and the foam was holding up really well last time i looked.

    The tape looks like its done an awesome job.
    Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Would that be the "Gorilla Tape" that is doing a great job?
    No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.

    Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.

    You tear the old stuff off to replace it and spend an hour plus getting glue off your rim seat/bead of each wheel.

    All 4 sets of wheels i have now are tubeless with the strapping tape and doing beautifully.

    IMO its terrible stuff but YMMV.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    No, the 8898 Strapping tape (blue). I will never stick Gorilla tape on a set of wheels ever again.

    Ive had about 5-6 rolls in different widths over the past 2 years and used it on every wheel ive had in that time, my enve wheels also came with Gorilla tape from the factory and i dont know why they stick with it, its heavy, it leaves a messy residue, it moves when air pressure pushes against it (more critical on fat wheels), it has or gets over time an uneven glue spread allowing tubeless fluid to go through and under it and the tyre bead sticks to the glue ripping threads off the tape when you remove a tyre.

    You tear the old stuff off to replace it and spend an hour plus getting glue off your rim seat/bead of each wheel.

    All 4 sets of wheels i have now are tubeless with the strapping tape and doing beautifully.

    IMO its terrible stuff but YMMV.
    Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?

  18. #68
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    The only tape I could find close to suitable in middle-earth was called BearTape (I think it's the same as gorilla), with a strip on the left side, right side and in the middle. It weighted in pretty close to a surly 90g rim strip, but the sealant was coming out through the cut outs and unused spoke holes it needed another couple wraps to seal. I thought I was losing some weight with my 18g of nylon and packing foam then the tape went on
    Blue tape looks to be the ticket.

  19. #69
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    I just taped my Surly rimstrip on the rim with Stan's tape. It might be a 50g heavier solution than without the rimstrip, but I get to keep the cool blue rimstrip.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjdog800 View Post
    Thanks for the clarification! What width do you use and where did you get it?

    If you are in the US you can get it from RS Hughes in any width, i could only get it in 48mm here so that was the width i used.
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  21. #71
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    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    I was able to get my HuDu to seat up on a Rolling Darryl with just gorilla tape. I had to put a tube in, seat the beads, unseat one side, pull the tube out, and then was able to get the other bead to seat with a compressor... it wasn't exactly easy, as I did have to kind of pull up on the sidewall to get it to pop on... a pair of extra hands helps.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    I put Larry's on my Daryls. Layer of foam, then Standard Gorilla overalpped for width. Do not put tape in the bead area. Inflate w/compressor Until it beads. Fill through valve w/ syringe. Has not leaked a pound since January.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by alshead View Post
    Anyone find the 8898 tape in anything wider than 72mm? I'm trying to go tubeless on a set of Holy Rolling Daryls with 120tpi HD's. One wheel seated up with some foam and gorilla tape, but the other won't seat up no matter what I try. I've tried split tube, foam, gorilla tape + stans in the bead socket... just won't air up.
    The Hudu's were a bit problematic for me on the Holy RD's, figure out which side is giving you the most grief seat that side with a tube then pull it out and seat the other. If that doesn't work you can always grab the hairspray and lighter if you don't have a compressor.

  25. #75
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    Been reading this thread with interest. I have just bought an On-One fatty and at some point want to go tubeless. I'm a bit torn now between this method with tape and foam or the split tube method.

    I have just found some 48mm 3M 8898 strapping tape but it's £32 a roll!

    I have a question about seating the valve when using the foam. When you put the valve thorugh and tighten up the nut does the valve base seal agaist the tape ok? Do you not run the risk of tightening it and pulling the valve through the tape?

  26. #76
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    I would be having another look, im taking it you are in the UK by the currency quoted

    Here's a better price for starters Tapes | Farnell United Kingdom | Results
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  27. #77
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    Couple questions for you Ozzy...

    Would it be possible for you to post the manufacturers part number on the 55mm wide 3M tape you found? Might make Google searches for each region more effective.

    The "vinyl rim tape" you mention... is this just some sort of non-stick vinyl strapping?

    The second attempt using the 3M tape and vinyl strip used no foam whatsoever, correct?

    Thanks for the help... appreciate all the documentation and answers you have posted.
    Just keep pedaling...

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  28. #78
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    Here you go - **Scotch® Film Strapping Tape 8898 Blue, 48 mm x 55 m, 24 per case Bulk

    The vinyl rims strips are cut from a roll of vinyl cloth at a craft shop, vinyl that is used in dressmaking, basically coloured waterproof cloth.

    The second attempt, and third and fourth i always use 10mm EVA foam. This non memory foam makes it easy to inflate tyres with a floor pump.

    Good luck with your conversion.
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  29. #79
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    Awesome.... thanks a lot!!
    Just keep pedaling...

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  30. #80
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    I have just done a little experiment tonight successfully.

    I have used ripstop nylon as the rim strip, weighs about 1-2g for 2 wraps, feels like feather weight, my scales wont even register.

    Then 2 wraps of 8898 tape @ less than 10g.

    The ultralight HuDu was inflated on the margelite rim for a week at 30psi with a tube, i deflated and took them off, cleaned the old tape off the rim then did the new lightweight taping, put the tyre on with a tube then inflated... popping both beads.

    Carefully removed 1 bead seal and the tube then screwed in a tubeless valve with 1 bead still seated.

    I then put some soapy water on the remaining unseated bead, set the wheel horizontally on a bucket (so the unsealed bead was being forced down with gravity and inflated it with a track pump popping the other bead and sealing the tyre onto the rim successfully.

    So tomorrow when i get time i will inject 60-80ml of stans into the tyre through the valve stem and see if i can seal it.

    So the complete rimstrip with tape is around 10-15g in total.

    Will keep yous updated when i add the stans and try to get the tyre sealed.

    My whole idea with this is as an out and out race wheelset.
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    Tubeless Tuesday.

    Got a 907 built up for my wife and daughter a week ago and it flatted yesterday so I decided to take it tubeless like my surly.
    The HDs on Rolling Darrel's sure didn't take to the Getto tubeless setup as quickly as my Marge Lites with Escalators. Those have been set up for six months with no issues. I unseated one side to check the Stan's fill and it was still pretty good. Added one scoop and seated it back up with a compressor. Not even a "Stan's ball" to take out.
    Back to the HDs... Split and mounted a tube over the surly rim strip, set on the tire, doused it all with soapy water, and tried to use my compressor to fill through the valveless stem. No luck. Wrapped a strap around the tire to push it out some on the rim and it finally aired up after giggling and rotating the tire a bit. Extra hands would make it easier. Quickly put the valve core back in and pumped it up to 30. Never got the Pop I got with the escalators as they seated on the rim but it looks like it is seated properly and is holding pressure.
    The extra width on the rolling Darrel made it a lot harder to air up compared to the Marge lites as there is a lot more space for air to escape.

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    Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.

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  34. #84
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    Ordered supplies to go tubeless-

    orange seal tubeless valves- I like the larger rubber foot on these but it made me think (after I bought them) that I could have made my own from some blown 700cc tubes...

    Plan on using Tyvek Tape to seal up the rims, no foam, Stan's sealant, and some 3M reflective tape on the Surly rimstrip.

    Will update when I get the supplies and get it done!

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Did you tell your wife about the mod? If not, it would be a great way to gain feedback from a rider who might not understand the differences. Ask your wife if the bike feels different.
    After a couple rides, wife hasn't noticed a difference. I think she's still in the honeymoon stage with this bike and hasn't found any quirks to mention... yet.

  36. #86
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    The 8898 blue tape is a bit hard to find by the roll rather than the case . Here are the 2 links(by the roll) already mentioned in this thread.
    The 72 (2 7/8")
    Welcome to R.S.Hughes

    The 48mm (1 7/8")
    3M Scotch 8898 Synthetic Rubber Film Strapping Adhesive Tape, 4.6 mil Thick, 60.14 yds Length x 1-7/8" Width, Blue: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

    And here is a link to 2" x 165' Tyvek tape that some people use with success

    Amazon.com : Tyvek Sheathing Tape 2" x 165' : Patio, Lawn & Garden


    Also if you are using glue, rubber cement (Elmers $1.49) is not quite the same as vulcanizing fluid. The Elmers type stuff is made to peel off paper. Either will work but the tire specific stuff has other additives to cause cross linking and it sticks better. However, if they sell it at an auto store (Napa, Autozone) or farm store (Farm Fleet, Tractor supply) it may be called rubber cement. They sell Slime brand "rubber cement" made specifically for tires/tubes 8 oz for $5.99. Buying online incurs shipping fee to include "Hazmat" label.
    Last edited by k.b.; 10-06-2013 at 06:31 AM.

  37. #87
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    Supplies showed up yesterday so I went to work-

    Clownshoe with Bud tire
    Removed the surly rimstrip, cleaned it off and put a strip of reflective tape down it and put it back on the rim.

    Ran 1 strip of 2" tyvek tape down each side of the rim (not fully in contact with the side of the rim) then I ran a stripe down the center of the rim.

    Put the tube back in and pumped her up to 30 psig, left it in for maybe 15 minutes. Left one side of the tire on the rim if felt like the bead was set. Pulled the tube out and put in the orange seal tubeless valve, used the o-rings.

    I messed around for probably an hour trying to get the bead to set- decided after 30 minutes to put the Stan's in since I didnt want to have to break the bead again... Using a strap and a lot of luck I finally got the bastard to air up. Did the stan's shake- couldnt get the tire to hold air so I put it on the bike and rode it around and that seemed to do the trick- aired it up super tight and left it overnight.

    This AM the b#tch was flat... pulled off the tire and washed everything off. Going back for round two when I get home.

    I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too.

    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??
    Did you use some soapy water to see where air was leaking out? Its hard to diagnose if you don't know where its leaking.

  39. #89
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    No, soapy water... thought I had it last night- Will use tonight though so I know if I have it sealed up!

  40. #90
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    Yeah even if it seems everyhing is sealed up and working well, the last thing I always do is spray it down with soapy water to see if there are any slow leaks.

    The sealant may just have not gotten a chance to seal the bead well, you might just need to add more sealant, shake it around a little more and see if it holds air. You may have jumped the gun a little by tearing it all down.

  41. #91
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    Nothing better than morning rage! Guess it just gives me more practice so my front wheel goes smoothly!

  42. #92
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    Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.
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  43. #93
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    One place you really want to tape up is the holes on the bead near the weld seam on the Surly rims. Otherwise you will be trying to plug those with sealant and since the rim has hollow sections it might take ages and way too much sealant.

    I've been running Marge Lites with Husker Dus and Escalators for a year now and at the very beginning I tried to seal them with just rubber against the rim bead area. I ended up having lots of slow leaks when the tire was flexing around and concluded that I would have to use a lot of sealant to have them eventually seal so instead I went with a split tube method.

    I did experiment with wide gorilla tape that was placed from rim edge to rim edge where the tire had tape between it and the rim without direct contact for the tire to the rim. I found that the gorilla tape is too sticky and difficult to get into place without crimps around the bead area. Those crimps usually resulted in slow leaks, just like the bare rim.
    Wide tape that is easier to get in place and doesn't leave crimps or other leak prone areas might be more successful.

    I built up a Clownshoe wheelset for the same Husker and Escalator tires and opted for split tube directly without messing around with other methods. I will be running low pressures on the Clownshoe wheelset for the winter so small burps and slow leaks with a ton of sealant was something I wanted to avoid.

  44. #94
    Laramie, Wyoming
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizzard75 View Post
    I am guessing that I need to run the tape closer to the edge of the rim- it was a slow leak so I am going to go back over all the tape too.

    any other suggestions or obvious errors based on my write up??
    I am assuming that you are using Tyvek tape only in order to save weight and that maybe you were able to get it for little or no cost. I really like the gorilla tape and I ran it all the way to the outside of the rim (trimming off excess on outside after pushing it down into the bead area). I've tried tape that is more slick and haven't liked the results. I just put new tape on mine last week because I drilled out some additional holes last week. It airs up and seals perfectly. I have absolutely no issues as mentioned in the earlier post about "crimps" in the tape in the bead area but I pull the tape extremely tight.

    I use these down to below 2 psi at times during the winter with no issues.


  45. #95
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    After your "Stan's shake" make sure you lay the wheel horizontal (I set mine on my soapy water bucket) as it allows the stans to settle to the tire/rim interface. Visit it about 4 times with 15 minute intervals to give it another shake and set it back horizontal on the opposite side. I've had great luck doing HuDu's and Escalators on Marge Lites and Rolling Darryls.

  46. #96
    Location: SouthPole of MN
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Has your tape covered the holes on the rim bead ? .... might be escaping from there into the rim join and getting free azza bird.
    I'll second that... this is what gave me trouble first off. What I did is take a hot-glue gun and filled the suckers up. Worked perfectly.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  47. #97
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    Thanks everyone for the help! I cant wait to leave work to get back at it-

  48. #98
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    Dont think the tyvek tape is the right stuff for the job. Got home wrapped it all around the outside of the rim and aired it up- getting better at the bead snapping- soaped it up and it was leaking in one spot on the bead and in just about every rim hole- too much. I pulled it all off - tyvek tape sucks to remove btw, tears very easily.

    Split tube or Gorilla tape?? Pro's and Con's... I assume that the gorilla tape is lighter and the split tube is easier- which method is more robust?

    I have the tubeless valves so really I am going to go with gorilla tape- although I would prefer schrader valves over prestra... blah going gorilla- thanks again for all your help!

    After reading the thread better I think 8898 tape instead of gorilla- for now though I am going to put the tube back in so I can freakin ride my bike!

  49. #99
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    Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.

    Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!
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  50. #100
    Laramie, Wyoming
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Ahhh.... another happy fatbiker with a tubeless fail.

    Its a friggin pain-in-the-a$$ going tubeless on fat wheels, worth it once you get it right but hurry up Stans tubeless fat rims I say !!!
    Oh come on ozzy. Most of the fails are people who aren't doing what works. They are trying to skimp and then it doesn't work and it goes down in the books as a fail.

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