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Thread: Titanium Fattie

  1. #1
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Titanium Fattie

    I've been lusting for a fat bike for years. I'm turning 40 later this year, life's peachy-keen, so I figure I owe it to myself to get a titanium fattie. Wife's given me the chartreuse signal (between yellow and green) if I take care of some other things (sell stuff, fix house, no trips, etc.)

    For the last few months, I've been bouncing around ideas in my head about what I want. JNCarpenter's ByStickel is so close, but alas, isn't the metal I want it in (to preempt "Why ti?": 'cuz that's what I want )

    I've got a whole bunch of ideas in my head, and have already talked to some sweet ti frame crafters, but I'm not sure if I've ever asked the following. Has this been done before or can it be?
    1. Titanium frame, 70mm Uma rim, Larry rear
    2. Slider dropouts (singlespeed or geared options with Alfine or Rohloff)
    3. 16.5" chainstays at closest point (bike will have 29er & snowbike duties, and want short stays for many reasons)
    4. 135mm rear (internally geared hub options)
    5. Symmetrical (easy swap out with 29er wheel)


    Let me know if I'm nuts. Also, dual fat tires would totally prevent this from happening, right?

    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  2. #2
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    Might fit. 47mm trials rims measure out to 88mm for a Larry. I think Endomorphs on a 70mm come out to 93mm or something, and a Rohloff has a generous chainline.

    I saw a nice steel frame that had a 5mm offset instead of 17.5mm offset, and could handle Large Marge rims and Endomorphs. You could build up a 29er wheelset with the same offset and be good.

  3. #3
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller
    Might fit. 47mm trials rims measure out to 88mm for a Larry. I think Endomorphs on a 70mm come out to 93mm or something, and a Rohloff has a generous chainline.

    I saw a nice steel frame that had a 5mm offset instead of 17.5mm offset, and could handle Large Marge rims and Endomorphs. You could build up a 29er wheelset with the same offset and be good.
    Thanks Drew. On the front of my bike now is a 50mm Speedway Uma with a Larry, and I think that is wide enough for me. Are these rims still made?

    What about side-to-side flex of the wheel & tire? Should that be a consideration when trying to figure out how much room is needed between the stays?
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  4. #4
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    Four out of the five should be easy enough, but getting that short on the chainstays ain't gonna be easy. Pictured below is my Black Sheep with 17.75" chainstays (with sliders all the way in).



    There is close to an inch between the tire and seat tube/chainstay bridge, but only 1/2" between the 32t chainring and chainstay (w/ ~57mm chainline; 36t pictured would have even less). An 83 or 100mm BB shell would probably be a necessity, but even then some trickery with a plate or such may be required to get the chainstays under 17". Sounds like a cool project though, hope it works out for you!
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

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    That is one of the most serene sheep I have seen, beautiful!
    Ridin ridin ridin..... raw ti!

  6. #6
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    I'm working with Form Cycles right now, they've been great. You'd get the benefit of my bike having paved the fatty way for you with them, it's their first, and the design is all mine, it's been really fun!

    I'd agree, stays that short will be tricky.

    If you haven't lined up a builder yet, I'd definitely give Daryl a call. Super nice guy, will give tons of time on the phone if need be, and very willing to tackle all manner of odd ball requests.

    Not to take anything away from the 'Sheep there, or any of the builders you're already considering!

    Filling your back tire with water or concrete will help keep that from happening!
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  7. #7
    Slow But Still Pedaling
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    How are those Ti forks working with the fat tire Miles?

    And drevil, how will you accommodate the Rohloff 54mm chain line - use an 83mm BB rather than 100?
    Last edited by JimInSF; 02-02-2011 at 09:43 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF
    How are those Ti forks working with the fat tire Miles?
    Love it. A little bit of fore/aft deflection with hard braking on high traction surfaces, but that's not something you run into often on snow. Otherwise it does everything I ask of it, looks gorgeous, and I should be able to say the same ten years down the road.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  9. #9
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    For what it's worth...

    Alaska fatbiker here so I've seen a "few" of these bikes around. First thing, Ti is sweet and you'll have no regrets. I don't think points #4 & #5 are compatible. If so I'd like to hear about this solution.

    My Ti 907 does double duty as both a fatbike and a 29'er and I does quite well at doing this I might add. My symmetrical 160-mm frame is no longer available, but a Ti Fatback is a no brainer solution here. I have a good friend with one and it's about as custom as a frame can be yet provides for the largest number of drivetrain options and wheel configurations... other than point #4. Greg and his crew have this fatbike thing figured out so I'd hesitate going full customs by another vendor not familiar with fatbike geometries. Also, I believe if you ask.... the Ti Fatback could be built with sliders.

    Another thing... I have come to really appreicate the longer chainstays on my 907. Although it's not as nimble as a traditional 26er or 29er HT, the bike remains planted on the steepest climbs and tracks incredibly well on the flats and downhills. Also, they are great for loaded off-road touring which I did a bit of this past summer here in Alaska.

    Rumor has it that Chain Reaction in Anchorage might be coming out with a new Ti frame source by a "new" Ti vendor. I know some of the details, but it is not for me to say.

    Good Luck....

    Regards,

    EndUser
    Last edited by EndUser; 02-02-2011 at 06:22 PM.
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  10. #10
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    BS Ti Fork

    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF
    How are those Ti forks working with the fat tire
    I have that identical BS Ti fork on my 907 fatbike and I love it. I was running their steel unicrown fork for the last two seasons and as mentioned there is certainly more fore / aft movement... which is what I wanted. It is considerably more compliant than the steel version, but still tracks as well. Not to mention... the Ti fork is a pound less than the steel version.... exactly 2 pounds with the thicker tubes. My fat bike is now at 27# complete....

    Regards,

    EndUser
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil
    ...dual fat tires would totally prevent this from happening, right?...]
    Absolutely. That only happens because your rear wheel is far too light.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  12. #12
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    Thanks EndUser and Miles - it's too bad the wait at BS is so long at this point! (Someone recently posted on, I think it was the 29er forum, that he's now been waiting for his frame from BS since October 2009...)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF
    Thanks EndUser and Miles - it's too bad the wait at BS is so long at this point! (Someone recently posted on, I think it was the 29er forum, that he's now been waiting for his frame from BS since October 2009...)
    Did you see this? Don't know if they're actually stocking them or not, but presumably there's not a year and a half wait if they're selling them on their website.

    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    Alaska fatbiker here so I've seen a "few" of these bikes around. First thing, Ti is sweet and you'll have no regrets. I don't think points #4 & #5 are compatible. If so I'd like to hear about this solution.
    What makes you say that? You're looking at a 135mm symmetrical rear end on the bike I posted above.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    What makes you say that? You're looking at a 135mm symmetrical rear end on the bike I posted above.
    My appologies, but I was referring to all wheel and drivetrain configurations not just IGH. The IGHs have not quite caught on here yet for winter use.

    Can that frame accept a full 2x10 or 3x9 drivetrain and run 100-mm rims and not have chainline clearance issues with the tire?

    Sorry about the confusion, that was not my intent and I corrected my post above.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    My advice and $3 will buy you nothing more than a tunafish sandwich

  15. #15
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    beta

    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF
    Thanks EndUser and Miles - it's too bad the wait at BS is so long at this point! (Someone recently posted on, I think it was the 29er forum, that he's now been waiting for his frame from BS since October 2009...)
    Jim,

    No wait necessary. Chain reaction in Anchorage stocks BS Ti forks for fatbikes. If you want to run a 135-mm front set-up with disc-tabs, they have plenty of these forks available now. I believe they have both 450 and 468-mm A-to-C forks. 10-inch steer tubes and ~40-mm off-set. All Breezer style dropouts.

    Regards,

    EndUser
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    My appologies, but I was referring to all wheel and drivetrain configurations not just IGH.
    I see. I think implicit in Drevel's post was an understanding that a 135 symmetrical rear would all but require an IGH.

    Can that frame accept a full 2x10 or 3x9 drivetrain and run 100-mm rims and not have chainline clearance issues with the tire?
    Can you run a full cassette on any bike with 100mm rims? Chain Reaction suggests not (bottom of product description for its 100mm rims). Obviously it's not happening on this bike with a 68mm bottom bracket shell. I'm actually running it 1x5 now with a Large Marge on the rear, and am just hoping I can do the same with an 80mm rim.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    Jim,

    No wait necessary. Chain reaction in Anchorage stocks BS Ti forks for fatbikes. If you want to run a 135-mm front set-up with disc-tabs, they have plenty of these forks available now. I believe they have both 450 and 468-mm A-to-C forks. 10-inch steer tubes and ~40-mm off-set. All Breezer style dropouts.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    135mm centered or offset?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    . Greg and his crew have this fatbike thing figured out so I'd hesitate going full customs by another vendor not familiar with fatbike geometries.
    Honestly, this isn't a knee jerk response tied to the fact that I'm having a custom one done.

    I've seen the same sentiments attached to statements over in the 29er forum with regards to custom bikes. Oh, don't go with so and so, they don't have the geometry dialed like Brand X.

    Geometry is just numbers, not alchemy. Any builder worth giving your hard earned bucks to, is going to do some research before jumping in on a style they aren't super familiar with, as well as most likely knowing a thing or two about bike handling characteristics and how different properties affect the rider. The info is all out there, it's not hidden in some vault to be kept away from the lustful masses

    Also, bikes are recipes, and like any good one, they all have a unique taste. Not taking anything away from the good folks up in AK, but what they have, geometrically speaking, is totally repeatable by any good builder, by simply looking up the digits. Just like they could copy a 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper, or a fine batch of Nestle's Toll House cookies.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    Jim,

    No wait necessary. Chain reaction in Anchorage stocks BS Ti forks for fatbikes. If you want to run a 135-mm front set-up with disc-tabs, they have plenty of these forks available now. I believe they have both 450 and 468-mm A-to-C forks. 10-inch steer tubes and ~40-mm off-set. All Breezer style dropouts.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    I'll have to check with them on whether they stock the 100mm - if I go fat, I'd be interested in a build with a Son dynamo hub. (Adventure bike!)

  20. #20
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    I wish someone would copy that jones and jam a fat tire in there. It docent look like he is in a hurry to do it. Unless he is hiding it.
    2013 mongoose Fat bike
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  21. #21
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    Totally agreed BigHit. I was talking to him a couple of weeks ago and he gave no indication that he was. (Personally, I want a 100mm fork, which he is no longer making, and room for a fat rear, which is also not on the Jones map...)

  22. #22
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    now *this* i cant wait to see... :-)~

    hurry up and be 40...

  23. #23
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    Centered 135

    Quote Originally Posted by dvo1
    135mm centered or offset?
    Centered 135

    Regards,

    EndUser
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  24. #24
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    Does anyone make 100mm carbon forks that will fit a Larry or Endomorph? I'd be particularly interested in someone who will do something slightly custom - I'd like to fit one of these and fit those dropouts.

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    You are absolutely correct...

    and I'd never dissuade someone from going custom. It's a fun and gratifying experience if you get the right builders involved. Besides, nobody has a lock on the intellectual rights to build fatbike frames.

    I've seen some of your schematics and your frame looks great and I wish you luck with the build.

    Regards,

    EndUser
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF
    Does anyone make 100mm carbon forks that will fit a Larry or Endomorph? I'd be particularly interested in someone who will do something slightly custom - I'd like to fit one of these and fit those dropouts.
    love my SON on my rando bike.
    could see getting a disc version to use on a fargo-esque adventure bike fatty.
    running the new led lights you'd have full brightness at just above a walking pace...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndUser
    and I'd never dissuade someone from going custom. It's a fun and gratifying experience if you get the right builders involved. Besides, nobody has a lock on the intellectual rights to build fatbike frames.

    I've seen some of your schematics and your frame looks great and I wish you luck with the build.

    Regards,

    EndUser
    Thanks, yep, it's all about working with a builder who has a solid background, otherwise, you can end up with all manner of horror stories....

    Can't wait to see the final drawing, of the complete frame. It's kinda like getting ultrasounds of your pregnant wife, you see a bit, but never get the whole enchilada
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF
    Does anyone make 100mm carbon forks that will fit a Larry or Endomorph? I'd be particularly interested in someone who will do something slightly custom - I'd like to fit one of these and fit those dropouts.
    Not 100, but carbon...

    Fatback carbon fork!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    Not 100, but carbon...

    Fatback carbon fork!
    Someone else mentioned the same desire in the thread (100mm for running dynamo/gen hubs) and they suggested we use headlamps instead.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    I see. I think implicit in Drevel's post was an understanding that a 135 symmetrical rear would all but require an IGH.



    Can you run a full cassette on any bike with 100mm rims? Chain Reaction suggests not (bottom of product description for its 100mm rims). Obviously it's not happening on this bike with a 68mm bottom bracket shell. I'm actually running it 1x5 now with a Large Marge on the rear, and am just hoping I can do the same with an 80mm rim.
    I'm running a full 9spd cassette on a Fatback (170 OLD/100mmBB) with USC 100mm rims. I've got the RaceFace Atlas X type crankset, which requires shims to set the side play. I've got all (2 or 3x2.5mm) of my shims on the drive side so the chain goes past the rim w/o touching. With all the shims on the non-drive side the chain was on the rim in low/1st gear. I expect some wear on the rim due to chain dancing, but I can't hear it rub and there are no marks as of yet.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles e
    Can you run a full cassette on any bike with 100mm rims? Chain Reaction suggests not (bottom of product description for its 100mm rims)
    On some frames, I believe so with the right hub. I've seen some symetrical 170-mm rears and some 135-mm offset rears with full complement of gears running 100-mm rear rims.

    Regards,

    EndUser
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    Pretty sure some of the 29er carbon forks will fit a fat tire but not with a 100mm or maybe even 80mm rim or probably a 65mm on some of them. Best to test the fit before you buy.

  33. #33
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    I couldn't fit a Larry on a 40mm rim in an On-One carbon fork.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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    I have asked Jeff also before about doing a fat spaceframe when I will be at the top of The List, but he had no intentions to do that.
    Then a couple of months ago I asked Jeff to sell me the fat diamaond bike that's in his blog,
    Sheila replied that they won't sell that one because it is Jeff's personal bike!
    Ridin ridin ridin..... raw ti!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by joop
    I have asked Jeff also before about doing a fat spaceframe when I will be at the top of The List, but he had no intentions to do that.
    Then a couple of months ago I asked Jeff to sell me the fat diamaond bike that's in his blog,
    Sheila replied that they won't sell that one because it is Jeff's personal bike!
    I think a bunch of us has asked him to do it, myself included. Wonder why he hasn't jumped on it when there seems to be so much demand for it. Maybe he's still tinkering.
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  36. #36
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    I've been reading up a bit from all you dual-fat gurus, so thanks for the responses everyone. This has been very informative. I've wanted one of these beasts for a while, but it wasn't until about 6 months ago that the ideas started swirling more and more. Then a wee bit of snow hit us a couple of weeks ago, and a buddy with a dual-fatty was suffering less than the rest of us, which really put the fans to the flames.

    I'm a singlespeeder at heart, but in my experience, rides become hikes in the snow if you just have one gear. You really need that low gear to spin in some sections, but I don't want to use that the whole ride. I also wanted to avoid the complication of external shifty bits as much as possible, or at least minimize them, so that lead me to the path of IGH, and as far as I know, only come in 135mm. The sliding drops make the singlespeed switcheroo a piece of cake.

    As for the super short stays, I've been looking for a 29er with a stubtail since I've tried long and short chainstays on 29ers and think I'm ready for something even shorter. Since I'll only be getting one super nice bike for a while, I figure I could it incorporate it into my requirements. Besides, Mikesee said something in his Snoots post about shorter stays being beneficial, so I figure it couldn't hurt.

    One thing I didn't mention before is that I definitely won't be using this just for snow. I live in Maryland, where we get just a few weeks of primo snow bike riding conditions. I plan to use this bike for everything off-road related (except long tours because I have other bikes for that). I hardly ever go to the beach, but I'd make a few trips just to play with this thing.

    Symmetry? Partially for aesthetics, but also for compatibility of 29er wheels.

    I've considered some of the brands already mentioned, and even had lengthy discussions with some of them, but ultimately, they didn't have what I was looking for, thus, the search continues.
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  37. #37
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    Agreed, that Black Sheep is gorgeous. I've told James I hope someday to get another bike from him (had a Cross frame) and this is inspiring (Alfine, and double duty as a single speed 29er.)

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    Ricky I think you are planning this out really well. If there is one thing I wish I could afford right now, its an IGH drivetrain for the Pugs...but at prices for doing that here in Norway it is going to be awhile! I have no regrets buying the complete bike, but it it does beg for an IGH. Which I could then swap onto a BS frame ;-)

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    Great looking sheep. Was wondering what is the BB width? How bout the rear hub size and is it offset?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by scremf
    Great looking sheep. Was wondering what is the BB width? How bout the rear hub size and is it offset?
    68mm BB shell, 135 non-offset rear.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

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    "I'll have to check with them on whether they stock the 100mm - if I go fat, I'd be interested in a build with a Son dynamo hub. (Adventure bike!)"

    The GF bought a steelie for her fatback and I bought a Ti for mine...

    "Someone else mentioned the same desire in the thread (100mm for running dynamo/gen hubs) and they suggested we use headlamps instead."

    ...that's why we bought our forks from Chainreaction (aka fatbikes.com)...
    If Huffy made an airplane, would you fly in it?

  42. #42
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    A buddy of mine (who I haven't seen much recently) saw this thread and offered to let me try out his fat bike which he received some time last summer or fall. Of course, I jumped on the chance. Until today, I hadn't spent more than 10 minutes on a dual fat bike, yet, I lusted for one. I figured this ride could cement whether or not to proceed with the project, or save my ducats for something else.

    I picked up the bike from him in the morning, headed to the local park, and adjusted the seat up, but only a little, since we are about the same height. There wasn't a lot of snow left here in Maryland, mere patches where there was a lot of shade. Luckily, some of them were on hills.

    Up, down, fast up, fast down, slow up, slow down the hard, thin, crusty snow. Loghop here, a little air there; not too much though, since this steed wasn't mine Singletrack swooping, then mixed in with a little road grinding. I tried the rear wheel hopping, and the small obstacle rides. Some things seemed easier, some harder.









    Still lust for one? Hell yeah. These badboyz are a ton o' fun.

    Thanks Delonn!
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  43. #43
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    DeEvil, What bike is that? It's awesome.

  44. #44
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
    Reputation: Drevil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,904
    Quote Originally Posted by tommignon
    DeEvil, What bike is that? It's awesome.

    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

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