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Thread: Surly and rust?

  1. #1
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    Surly and rust?

    I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a Moonlander, however I'm wondering is rust an issue with Surlys. I live in Newfoundland (far east Canada) and we are surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean.

    I am only planning to ride this in the snow, and maybe on a trail or two during the summer. Not planning on going near the salt water.

    Secondly, is the paint easily chippable? I know that is a pretty subjective question.

    Tks

  2. #2
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    Good info here

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    I've read about people spraying the inside of their steel frames with Weigle's Frame Saver or Amsoil HD (Heavy Duty) Metal Protector.

    I like the Amsoil product for my lawn and garden equipment but I don't have a steel frame to try it on.

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    I left my moonlander outside one night.


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    Find a Post by CoastKid...somewhere on his site he has a detailed treatment of his pugs.

    Has many years of use on the UK coast with good results. Being the same ocean one side should not be much different in that regard than the other.

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    lol . . . poor neglected moonie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NLSpruce3 View Post
    I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a Moonlander, however I'm wondering is rust an issue with Surlys. I live in Newfoundland (far east Canada) and we are surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean.

    I am only planning to ride this in the snow, and maybe on a trail or two during the summer. Not planning on going near the salt water.

    Secondly, is the paint easily chippable? I know that is a pretty subjective question.

    Tks
    I think people make more of it than really matters. Clean and oil occasionally and it will last fine. Like any mechanical device really.

    Shhhh I swear I could hear my Ogre rusting.

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    Who has ever had a new car made out of steel rust in a year.... or 5? The steel bike and rust concern is just paranoia. You would have to be neglecting the crap out of it, and even then for it to really get rusty would be years and years. If you are really worried about it and have an air compressor simply blow out all the wet areas and bolts, yadda yadda and you will be fine. Surly bikes are all steel and majority of them are for road riding and commuting ... on salty roads in winter. They are fine.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    New cars are dipped in an electrolysis zinc bath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NLSpruce3 View Post
    I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a Moonlander, however I'm wondering is rust an issue with Surlys. I live in Newfoundland (far east Canada) and we are surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean.

    I am only planning to ride this in the snow, and maybe on a trail or two during the summer. Not planning on going near the salt water.

    Secondly, is the paint easily chippable? I know that is a pretty subjective question.

    Tks
    I built up my Pugs. It got used in Baja for 5-8 months essentially living outside a tent a frisbee's throw from a beach. It was used during 2 Canadian winters in Calgary and enjoyed a week long bath or corrosive dust at Burning Man.

    I didn't rustproof it. I only cleaned it about once a year.

    After 4yrs I decided to repaint it due to some surface rust forming. I could have avoided that by washing it with fresh water after salty rides, but I was too lazy.

    It now looks like new and will probably get repainted in another 4-5yrs.

    I expect this frame will just keep on rolling.

    I didn't find the paint easy to chip. It survived quite well given the abuse the bike sustained.
    Safe riding,

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    Don't use frame saver, rust is hip it will increase resale value!

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    Ha, ha. he said he would only use it for a couple of rides...hee, hee..he just doesn't know....

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    rolling motor oil around the inside of the frame will help alot too

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFFcourse View Post
    Don't use frame saver, rust is hip it will increase resale value!
    Rust saver aka rust proofing will only help prevent rust inside the bike. So it won't hurt the rusty re-sale value at all. Washing the bike down when it's salty and waxing the outside will stop exterior rust from forming and could be a problem if your prospective buyer is keen on a rusty bike.
    Safe riding,

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    Two 5yr old Pugs with months of salty beach camping under their belts and a couple Canadian winters. The problem isn't rust - it's finding enough time to ride them.
    Safe riding,

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  16. #16
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    Lemon pledge helps as spray-on wax. Makes bikes smell good too.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I left my moonlander outside one night.


    IMG_1279 by jonshonda187, on Flickr
    That's funny and how I figured I was at the right house

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    Former Union Tinknocker/Tinsmith of decades. Steel rusts = period. If your near salt (winter roads) Ocean,etc. + 20 times. You can prime it paint it, what ever.......it RUSTS out.
    That is why there is Galvanized, Aluminum, Stainless,etc.etc.
    Don't kid yourself..........
    The Only thing that keeps black (steel) from rusting is lots of oil.........

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    Who has ever had a new car made out of steel rust in a year.... or 5? The steel bike and rust concern is just paranoia.
    Not to be argumentative but your way off base/wrong. Cars are galvanized and more panels. The steel frames are MUCH heavier than a bikes and Still rust out regularly in salt area's (example Rust/Manufacturing belt USA,Great Lakes,Ocean side). Add welds = 20x more likely to rust where welds are.

    Steel rusts out = period/fact. If your near salt (ocean to roads,snow) at least 20x more. This is a fact and definitely Not except to Asian fabricated steel frame bikes .......as if.

    Oil keeps steel from rusting. Primer's and paint are temporary.

    I fabricated in the skilled trades with various for years/decades...........

    Steel is used for bike frames because a) its cheap and b) easy on the pocket book for small shops to....... set up shop, easy to work with, start / maintain business with out large investment compared to what is done,needed with modern aluminum frames, extrusion's , etc. All of which costs more, particularly set up of yet even to engineering............

    Don't kid yourself........

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    For a ~$500 frame, figuring someone bought one at 18yrs old and the rate it will rust with any care taken at all....I figure buying oneself a new bike by 45 or so is pretty reasonable. I still don't think the frame would rust to a level of failing by then.

    I started riding lugged steel frames from the 60's and 70's when they were 15-20yrs old and the only frame failures I had were from wrecking them under my weight and strength. I wasn't messing with frame saver or linseed oil back then, I'd just buy the bike at a yard sale and ride it until I bent it. None of them were rusted out and I barely oiled my chain back then, let alone oiled frames, washed and waxed etc.

    I had a motorcycle that shipped with particularly crappy screws and ordered a forum developed obsessive compulsive set of stainless screws to replace them all. Eventually I sold that bike with half the plastic missing on it and the compression shot on the motor. The screws still looked great. What was the value I derived from that little project? Heh.

    $500 frame that might rust a bit over 20yrs or $3k custom Ti frame...bit of a different set of wants in the decision process I'd say. Hell in 20yrs I'll be lucky to be able to cycle and likely have gone through a handful more frames just for fun, long before this one rusts out to a point it has to be replaced.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    Not to be argumentative but your way off base/wrong. Cars are galvanized and more panels. The steel frames are MUCH heavier than a bikes and Still rust out regularly in salt area's (example Rust/Manufacturing belt USA,Great Lakes,Ocean side). Add welds = 20x more likely to rust where welds are.

    Steel rusts out = period/fact. If your near salt (ocean to roads,snow) at least 20x more. This is a fact and definitely Not except to Asian fabricated steel frame bikes .......as if.

    Oil keeps steel from rusting. Primer's and paint are temporary.

    I fabricated in the skilled trades with various for years/decades...........

    Steel is used for bike frames because a) its cheap and b) easy on the pocket book for small shops to....... set up shop, easy to work with, start / maintain business with out large investment compared to what is done,needed with modern aluminum frames, extrusion's , etc. All of which costs more, particularly set up of yet even to engineering............

    Don't kid yourself........
    Yeah years ago we had those old Toyotas in Prince George and Northern Ontario that would trap water in certain points of the frame and just rust out. And we put some Zeibart coating underneath it but that just made it worse, just trapped the moisture and salt and didn't allow it to dry out.
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    The new moonlanders have the inside treated already, as for the exterior, you should take care of your bike like you should take care of your car, or boat. If you put your boat in salt water you should clean it very thoroughly. You should wash your car and wipe it dry and wax it once in a while as well. Treat your Moonlander like this and it'll be fine. Lots of steel bikes from years back still kickin it.
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    My experience is that aluminum corrodes faster than steel rusts, assuming similar levels of sealing to begin with. It is funny that there is never a thread about the most popular bike frame material and the deterioration of the metal when the paint fails.

    High PH typically attacks aluminum. Many cleaning products are high PH, so it stands to reason that careless use of cleaners may be more of an issue for aluminum.

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    Interestingly they make boats for saltwater out of aluminum. It's actually very corrosion resistant but the issue is when it's in electrical contact with dissimilar metals you get galvanic corrosion where the lesser metal corrodes while the higher metal is protected. Since our bikes have lots of components made of metal other than aluminum, I think this is why aluminum bikes corrode. This is also why I am a little skeptical of Salsa's corrosion resistance claims for its Mukluks. Sure, if you throw the naked frame in salt water it will do just fine, but when you bolt a bunch of steel components onto it, it may be a different story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    Not to be argumentative but your way off base/wrong. Steel rusts out = period/fact.
    Not be argumentative in return... but duh, yes steel rusts. Everything corrodes... all we are... is dust in the wiiiiiind.

    I guess my spin post was to get the point across that this thread shouldn't even exist because:

    It has been covered MANY times.

    Surly has a s^!% ton of steel frames all over the world, the majority of which are daily commuters on salty, snowy, wet roads... and they aren't rusting out from under people.

    It's a bike. Ride it and quite yer dam worryin.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

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    I treat all steal frames with frame saver. take the effort for a little piece of mind. I am from Newfoundland orginally as well and now live on the wet coast. even if you do not treat the frame you will not have structural problems for years unless the bike will be left outside 24/7. what part of NL are you from. My family are still in Isle Aux Morts near Port aux basques.
    Quote Originally Posted by NLSpruce3 View Post
    I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a Moonlander, however I'm wondering is rust an issue with Surlys. I live in Newfoundland (far east Canada) and we are surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean.

    I am only planning to ride this in the snow, and maybe on a trail or two during the summer. Not planning on going near the salt water.

    Secondly, is the paint easily chippable? I know that is a pretty subjective question.

    Tks

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    Functionally the only corrosion related issue I've had with my Pugsleys is that one of them has AL spoke nipples which have essentially turned to dust from corrosion.
    Safe riding,

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  28. #28
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    My 80 year old steel road bike isn't rusty...



    I'm inclined to trust steel bikes not to rust so long as they get some basic care. Spray some chain lube into the frame tubes, or spray grease, lanolin etc, and a nice hole at the bottom of the BB shell so all water drains out.
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    It's not the point that steel rusts. We know it does. It's just that a bike frame is thicker steel then say an auto sheet metal panel. It would take years of neglect to rust a steel frame to the point that it is no longer functional. And surly uses powder coat and the shit is the most durable coating on all of my bikes.

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    And steel car frames, decades old are still in great shape in dry , arid areas like in the photo. A Model T frame lasts damn near forever in Arizona. The Great Lakes, Rust belt, Ocean front they rust through,shot,won't pass inspection. They are much thicker, heavier than a steel bike frame.

    Black steel rust period. It can't be argued any more than gravity is a fact of life on earth. Brand has (surly this case) has nothing to do with it so, all you Surly groupies need not get your panties all wet in protection. Nor does China manufactured matter.

    Aluminum don't rust period. Rust is specific to black steel. Corrosion via caustic's (alkaline chemicals with a pH of 13-14) will darn sure eat the sheet out of steel, PRONTO fast, as will low pH acids. This in reply to the cleaning chemical comment. As if bike owners are even using caustics to clean their bicycles >>>> You cleaning your bike with drain opener?

    The only thing in my actual, Professional experience that prevents black steel from rusting in an exterior, exposed environment is OIL. Everything, else (primers,paints,etc.) is temp. Lay a 4'x8' sheet of 16 gauge black outside, non oil'ed and it will have rust on it by morning. That is why they come OILED up from US Steel and others off the truck. Black sheet metal, beams,structural = ALL the same. Thicker just takes longer to rust through. Rust is bad because it attacks in layers - OIL prevents rust.

    The galvanic corrosion chart brought up by some DOES include black steel and is a reaction chart between metals. Black Steel is far from except from this as suggested.

    Foolishness - if you want to believe a chinese fab'ed bike frame made of black steel and painted is somehow immune to rusting, in the same environments which much heavier , car frames have rusted out in for decades --------- more power to you.
    If you want to believe caustic's and acid's somehow chew up black steel less = more power to you .
    If you want to believe the galvanic chart spares black steel - your choice
    I fabricated with many different and much more complicated than a simple steel pipe bicycle frame.........banged out in China to boot.
    It's all metal/steel to me just as it's all wood to a carpenter. Just some are better than others for certain things, some cost more,some are harder to work with.

    Black steel is, most common, cheap, and easy to work with = period. It makes for good HEAVY duty structural. Keep it out of a salt environment if your bike frame is made of it. Aluminum is MUCH better than steel, in such an environment and worst INCLUDING swimming pools environments with chlorine , etc. Stainless better yet, but it's heavy (like steel) and cost more.

    Black steel is used beyond heavy large structural because it is cheap, readily available and easy to work with...............always was........always will.

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    ^Hey goofball 4130 is different then mild steel.


    Is the term' black steel' from like the 50's?? I think you're blowing black smoke

    *feeding the troll**

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    @ Kevin
    Nice comment, feel tough hiding behind a computer screen calling someone a goofball.

    You not knowing the term black steel tells me a lot.

    That wasn't explained in the social media bicycle marketing / club, you bought into at purchase .....huh?..........imagine that..........

    See ya tough guy. Go watch some Barney tapes of your youth before beady by.



    *feeding the troll**

  33. #33
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    Hey NLSpruce3, to answer your question about paint chipping on a Surly, you have to give it a pretty good smack with something sharp. The decals come off real easy but I think that's intentional (I like it). I left my Lefty fork swing around and hit my down tube pretty hard (I have since padded it), and that chipped it.

    Meanwhile, let's get into a verbal sparring over oxidization. Tinman perhaps Kevin perceived you as a tough guy as you called it, with your absolutely certain emphasis that steel frames are temporary despite vikb's experience with Surly bikes in salty conditions, and it's time to get down to tough guy stuff.

    Bigger things to get worked up over.

    Sorry if I'm sounding like a yellow bellied peace keeper here, it's out of compensatory habit given my anger problem.
    Disclaimer: I run Regular Cycles (as of 2016). As a profiteer of the bicycle industry, I am not to be taken very seriously.

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    Sorry for the verbal stuff. I meant it tongue in cheek. I apologize again.

    I thought your ranting was long and rather strange that all.

    Not into comparing professions, but I'm a 7 year tig welder for a major airline company. So it's not like I'm a amateur.

    To the op-

    Steel rusts yes. But the time to take a noticeable ride change (or breakage) is around a decade if stored inside when not in use, Yes, even with nasty weather.

    I do treat my troll with a commercially available lubricant. Once a season


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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Surly and rust?-uploadfromtaptalk1381205797441.jpg  


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    It sure seems like a good primer and paint/powder coat is enough to keep most steel frames from rusting at all if it remains intact. I know 4130 is not much better if at all than black steel or mild steel, but there certainly are some steels out there that are very corrosion resistant, as well as being stronger than 4130.

    I will ask this here also: How much more expensive would it be to make a bike frame out of one of the air hardening corrosion resistant high strength steels than using 4130?

    Are 4130 frames generally heavier than aluminum just for stiffness, since the strength to weight ratio for the steel is about the same or even better.

    Couldn't a frame made from corrosion resistant ultra high strength steel be considerably lighter and still more durable, as well as corrosion resistant?

    I am assuming most steel frames are not heat treated after welding. If they were they could be quite a bit lighter than aluminum for the same strength and durability. If they used ultra high strength stainless steel, and heat treated them, they could be even lighter.

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    High tensile strength steel.has many disadvantages.

    Heat treating steel makes it softer.

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    Odd...seems like everyone is by-passing the wisdom and the effort CoastKid has done.

    Is it because no link was posted? Which = If you can't feed it to me it must not be any good? Or have we just gotten too lazy in this forum?

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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    It sure seems like a good primer and paint/powder coat is enough to keep most steel frames from rusting at all if it remains intact. I know 4130 is not much better if at all than black steel or mild steel, but there certainly are some steels out there that are very corrosion resistant, as well as being stronger than 4130.

    I will ask this here also: How much more expensive would it be to make a bike frame out of one of the air hardening corrosion resistant high strength steels than using 4130?

    Are 4130 frames generally heavier than aluminum just for stiffness, since the strength to weight ratio for the steel is about the same or even better.

    Couldn't a frame made from corrosion resistant ultra high strength steel be considerably lighter and still more durable, as well as corrosion resistant?

    I am assuming most steel frames are not heat treated after welding. If they were they could be quite a bit lighter than aluminum for the same strength and durability. If they used ultra high strength stainless steel, and heat treated them, they could be even lighter.
    Some kind of 'table' showing the corrosion resistance of various frame steels could prove interesting; along with what happens at the tube joints with the different butting methods.

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    @ autodoctor - " It sure seems like a good primer and paint/powder coat is enough to keep most steel frames from rusting at all if it remains intact." The short answer for exterior = no, all are temporary though some better than others even in a non salty (ocean spray - winter road treatment environment ). Oil works.
    @ autodoctor - this link has some good stuff in regards to your other questions.

    Frame Materials for the Touring Cyclist

    @ Kevin = cool, no problem

    @ All = Sorry, I went on to much. This thread brought in salty environments & steel frames. There is no real rust issue imo, if you live in a non salty environment (Ex. ocean spray/winter road treatment versus Arizona ) or don't ride in such condition's. Obviously, leaving steel bike outside in substantial rainfall region's (ex Seattle) and not caring for it Will cause rust also.
    If a steel bike was rode as as much as a automobile in a salty environment it would rust out much faster but, few if any are.
    * using caustic's (high pH Alkaline chemicals. Ex. non acid drain opener) on it will cause corrosion quickly. Ditto for acids with very low pH (ex. HF - pH 1-3) In other words lower pH than vinegar. I have no idea why anyone would? Yet, another on this thread brought it up, as if.
    * This thread asked about Surly steel and rust, in wet salt environments. Surly, steel frames are no different than any others against rust. If you ride in such environments and own = oil it down (spray the sheet out of it) preseason interior frame where you can and Rinse it off after use exterior. If you keep the frame paint touched up and rinsed after salty use the rust will likely come from interior (inside out) along with exterior weld areas. If purchasing new an Aluminum frame is a Much better choice for such environments .
    * The reality is I think few, ride regularly , continually in salty environments and most, whom live in such, would have enough common sense to rinse / flush the frame off (regardless of frame build material) if they did along with oiling it down to extend it's life before it rusts out. The fact is, no matter what you do, if you rode in such, It Will Rust Out. Just like any automobile (yet faster-much faster). People with nice auto's Put Them Up For Winter. Jeep's, Trucks and everything else to extend = oil them down and keep the exterior rinsed extending the rust out time.......they Still Rust,,,,,,,,,all of them,,,,, even modern autos with much better pre treatments than pre 90's
    * If you ride in a dry, arid area and want to keep your frame for years = steel is fine. If you live / ride in a wet moist or in particular salty environment there are better frame choice materials than steel. Ditto if you leave your bike outside for storage in moist , high perspiration area's, regardless of salty or not.
    * If you Really wanted to aid your steel bike in rust prevention = talk to a automotive body shop in the Great Lakes area or salty sea shore. There are a few products that help, but, ultimately they will tell you "oil"

    Unusual topic - steel & salt - They Don't Play Well Together.....

    Enjoy the outdoors.......

  40. #40
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    A 4130 cro-moly steel frame will develop surface rust but it is exceptionally unlikely that the damage will ever be more than cosmetic. I have never seen or even heard of a 4130 frame failing due to rust.

    My experience is that aluminum corrodes/oxidizes just as fast as steel rusts. So you're not any better with aluminum.

    A titanium frame with good welds will theoretically last forever. But the titanium will cost 2-3 times as much, and the chances are that component standards will render the frame obsolete in 10-20 years anyway (steerer tube sizes, brake standards, etc.).

    If I were you, I'd buy the Pugs and use some sort of petroleum based product inside the tubes to seal/protect it for insurance.

    Don't forget that the components you put on the frame are aluminum and will corrode rather quickly. You'll go through aluminum parts much, much, much faster than you'll go through steel frames...

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    Foolishness - if you want to believe a chinese fab'ed bike frame made of black steel and painted is somehow immune to rusting, in the same environments which much heavier , car frames have rusted out in for decades --------- more power to you.
    Foolishness - Not believing what people have told you who have actual experience with the topic at hand (SURLY'S and RUSTING of those Surly's). We aren't discussing wether or not XX metal will rust in XX time... the original thread was about whether a Surly Frame made of steel will rust! IT has been answered here... AND MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY.... huf huf huf.... MANY MANY MANY times before.

    Go debate metal corrosive talk in a metal corrosive talk forum maybe? Just saying... it was a simple thread and simple answers were already given... (see 3 lines up).
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnroyal View Post
    A 4130 cro-moly steel frame will develop surface rust but it is exceptionally unlikely that the damage will ever be more than cosmetic. I have never seen or even heard of a 4130 frame failing due to rust.

    If I were you, I'd buy the Pugs and use some sort of petroleum based product inside the tubes to seal/protect it for insurance.

    Don't forget that the components you put on the frame are aluminum and will corrode rather quickly. You'll go through aluminum parts much, much, much faster than you'll go through steel frames...
    +1 - with a modiucm of care a Pugsley will last as long as you want it to in winter or beach use.
    Safe riding,

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnroyal View Post
    My experience is that aluminum corrodes/oxidizes just as fast as steel rusts. So you're not any better with aluminum.
    My experience too. I had to put down an old AL frame from it, albeit a old crappy poorly cared for one. Oil often emulsifies with water, and it is not waterproof. No good Great Lakes car guy worth a darn(I'm one) would use oil to stop corrosion on external steel. Messy, bad for the enviro, and needs to be reapplied frequently. Its used on bulk steel because it is cheap, easy to apply, and can be removed for future welding and other process.

    I've media blasted my fair share of rusty oxidized metal. It is often not as bad as it looks. Sometimes it is worse. But never have I had steel that looked good, but turned out to be shot. From the OP's stand point, keep it looking good and it is good.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    +1 - with a modiucm of care a Pugsley will last as long as you want it to in winter or beach use.
    Yep!


    Coastride Aug 10th 059 by coastkid71, on Flickr

    I have two 06 Pugs with over 10,000 miles now between them, frame saved both, and l have ridden lots and lots of wet sand and salt water exposure over last 6 years.

    The grey frame had a grinder with wire brush wheel taken to remove all paint and the rust on the rack mounts etc was just surface rust.
    I still spray 3in1 (multi purpose) airsole oil into them but to be honest am not too worried about the condition, and i ride them pretty hard over rocks etc...

    Only problem now is the odd brass spoke nipple breaking - probably because of rock riding a fully rigid bike.
    But your okay for a rust caused frame failure for at least 6 years!

    Oh don`t ride IGH`s submerged for long in in salt water - they don`t like it!

    How i prep bikes for the coast; coastrider: Fatbike Preperation for beach riding
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    This is heading South fast. Before, I depart this thread I must point out for those of honest interest. THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL MISINFORMATION BEING CONVEYED HERE
    TO INCLUDE :
    * Aluminum versus Black Steel - corrosion resistance = Aluminum is Much more resistant, it's not even close / bike environment and many aluminum bike frames are are anodized to boot.

    * Steel bike frames don't rust out - not worth a reply. Apparently, they are immune unlike everything else made of the same, put through the same. There is no such thing as gravity on panet Earth either.....

    * oil on steel - correct not "used to stop" but darn sure used to prevent and nothing works better. I never wrote "to stop". "bad for the environment" - yea, thats why how many barrels a day are used??? Throw some kitty littler down and apply in your garage and the "environment " and pretty tree's to hug will be just fine....... What do you use on your chain? Dispose of your rubber tires? Anything plastic........................give me a break.........yea spray's some oil on your bike frame is just going to ruin the whole world all things considered. I will now go smash my chainsaws for good and only use hand saw's and axe the rest of my life. Do, hold your breath and wait for me, to accomplish.

    * Surly ~ has nothing to do with brand, all to do with material. Yet, some of you Obviously want to defend the brand ??? Guess, that is the result of being social media marketed and blog'ed to death as I can think of no other reason. Again, Steel/material not Surly labeled bikes = two different S's

    * "Experience"- reply to - un called for BS Jabs/Shot.
    Mine 20 years Union tin knocker / tin smith - Journeyman / on the job/full time/Always- shop fab to field - 4 years Specific trade school way back when, metallurgy training/school, working with Engineers weekly if not daily. Stick,Mig & Tig. Solder via tinners irons, less silver solder limeted braze. Typical - Galvanized, Black Steel, Various Aluminum , Various Stainless, copper,tin,etc. Layout, seem,fab,weld from scratch......."scratch".....meaning raw material/design build and not a jig/rigged table with widget parts coming , same welds/fitting......that's an assembly line. Yea, and I bicycle too (duh). How about you hot shot calling out the experience BS cry? Let me guess - you ride your bike --- so you know-----so there / see ya Shirley

    Links - Corrosion , first download doc. alum.
    http://www.corrosionist.com/aluminum...sion%20(1).pdf

    Straight-
    Corrosion Prevention and Corrosion Control. All the information about Corrosion.

    I see "crosskid71" just replied and with a photo before I submit. Good for ya "kid" and thanks for not having an attack smartarse reply like some. There are some tools you can use besides a wire brush on a drill motor, that are better (pm me). Oil helps ! The thicker the better rather than pen. oil Keep on her......
    "The grey frame had a grinder with wire brush wheel taken to remove all paint and the rust on the rack mounts etc was just surface rust.
    I still spray 3in1 (multi purpose) airsole oil into them but to be honest am not too worried about the condition, and i ride them pretty hard over rocks etc..."


    Personally, I would never buy any steel framed bike to use in a salty,moist environment but...........that's my choice


    Latter............

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    Tinman - you seem to have a lot of faith in the corrosion resistance of aluminum. I'm curious as to whether you grease your seatposts or leave bare aluminum-to-aluminum contact?

    If the latter, have you tried to adjust your seat height lately?

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    Tinman...thanks for the links supplied

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    @ autodoctor - " It sure seems like a good primer and paint/powder coat is enough to keep most steel frames from rusting at all if it remains intact." The short answer for exterior = no, all are temporary though some better than others even in a non salty (ocean spray - winter road treatment environment ). Oil works.
    @ autodoctor - this link has some good stuff in regards to your other questions.

    Frame Materials for the Touring Cyclist
    I am pretty sure I have read everything on that website at some point or other, although I by no means claim to remember it all. I don't see much, if anything there about my questions though. The yield strengths listed have been exceeded by quite a bit for both steel and aluminum alloys recently, and maybe even the titanium has gone up a bit.

    I do like the explanation of why material choice has virtually no impact on ride quality, or pedaling efficiency. I have always thought that the "feel of steel" was BS.

    My main questions remain unanswered though:
    why a steel frame is heavier than an aluminum one when the steel used has at least as good of a strength to weight ratio? edit: I realize that even really strong steel is only as stiff as cheap crap steel, and it must have a certain diameter for adequate stiffness, and a minimum wall thickness for dent resistance, but I would think an adequately stiff frame could still be made lighter than an aluminum frame.
    and,
    what are the issues with using some of the newer stronger steel alloys, some of which are corrosion resistant, and some of which are air hardening(strong without heat treatment)?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Federline View Post
    High tensile strength steel.has many disadvantages.

    Heat treating steel makes it softer.

    Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk 2
    What are the disadvantages of high strength steel vs. Aluminum, other than corrosion in the low alloy high strength steels?(genuine question, not sying there aren't any)

    "heat treating" is generally used as a term for Age hardening, quench hardening, or Martenistic hardening, all of which make a metal more hard, strong and brittle.

    Annealing, or normalizing is also done with heat, and it basically does the opposite, making it weaker, softer, and more easily worked(less brittle). but this is not usually called heat treating.

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    I was referring to annealing when using the word softer.

    High strength steels that are used in bridges are super super pricey, weigh more, and have less resistance to cracking when welding. PLUS some rare high strength steels, flex like crazy

    There's always a give and take, the more you heat treat the more brittle it becomes, annealing- gets soft and slightly stronger- but doesn't retain shape.

    The give and take with certain blends of steel , strength, how malleable, and ductility all come in to play.


    I weld stainless from 304ss all the way to monel, and i601 inconnel. Steel costing thousands of dollars a pound machined. There is really not much better of an option for a bike made from steel.


    (Sorry for the phone post I'm on a bike ride)

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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Federline View Post
    I was referring to annealing when using the word softer.

    High strength steels that are used in bridges are super super pricey, weigh more, and have less resistance to cracking when welding. PLUS some rare high strength steels, flex like crazy

    There's always a give and take, the more you heat treat the more brittle it becomes, annealing- gets soft and slightly stronger- but doesn't retain shape.

    The give and take with certain blends of steel , strength, how malleable, and ductility all come in to play.


    I weld stainless from 304ss all the way to monel, and i601 inconnel. Steel costing thousands of dollars a pound machined. There is really not much better of an option for a bike made from steel.


    (Sorry for the phone post I'm on a bike ride)

    Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk 2
    I don't know why you are responding while on a ride, hopefully you stopped for a few minutes to type.

    I still think you are confusing strength and toughness, but I do get that price, toughness, weldability, and workability(ductility) are disadvantages of the high strength steels. Each alloy does have it's own compromises. I was just thinking there must be something that has come along that is better than 4130 for bicycle frames. edit: other than the really expensive brand name proprietary stuff.

    I don't get how any of the steel alloys could be more flexible or heavier though. I thought all the steel alloys were pretty much the same modulus and density.

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    I'm on the east coast, just outside of St. John's.

    Thanks for all the information, comments and debate . . . but it looks as if a Moonlander is no longer an option for me. The LBS's supplier has them all accounted for. Thats a bit of a piss off as I have spent months reviewing and researching and finally decided on the Moonlander.

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    Well I guess the OP question is no longer of use to the OP. I guess you will probably go to a wide rear hub fatback or 907 then?

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    My phone beeped at me (auto subscribed) waiting for a rider.

    You're prob right, I don't know for 100% certain. But stainless of all varieties are heavier

    Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk 2

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    NLspruce: I wouldn't give up on getting a moonlander yet. Certainly there's one your size at a bike shop somewhere, sitting there all lonely, and waiting for you to find it.
    As far as bikes that will handily accept the biggest tires, you'll have to spend a good bit more for something other than a moonlander. Of course, if you are fine with regular fat 4" tires, then there are quite a few more choices, and even some that can squeeze in the fattest tires if not on the fattest wheels. If corrosion is a major issue where you will ride, I would look at the Carver ti O'beast. for around $1400 and up for a frame, you can get a light, corrosion resistant fat bike frame.

  56. #56
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    This thread inspired me to inspect my 3 year old Pugsley. This frame was NOT treated in any way. This frame WAS used properly, meaning it was ridden in the rain, snow, salt, slush, and mud. This frame was never disassembled for maintenance. Are you ready for the horrifying pictures?

    Down the seat tube:


    Inside the BB shell:


    I found some dirt, some grease blobs, some excess powdercoat, but no obvious rust. There was some minor discoloration on top of the BB shell when looking down the seat tube, but it's more dirt colored than rust colored. The external exposed metal from chips and scratches has slight surface rust, but nothing worrisome.

    The moral of the story? The steel/rust paranoia is way out of control.
    Jason
    Disclaimer: www.paramountsports.net

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    Re: Surly and rust?

    What about ED coating? Apparently my All City Big Block fixed gear frame has "ED coating" to prevent corrosion, both inside and out. How effective is it, and could you have it done on another frame aftermarket?

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    My All City Mr. Pink has that same ED/black internal coating. It looks pretty nice and should hold up well. However, there's some mixed reviews about it's use in other applications besides bicycle frames.
    Jason
    Disclaimer: www.paramountsports.net

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    Let's put it this way ... the manhole covers on the streets are made of carbon steel ... pretty much the same stuff steel bikes are made out of ... and are the roads salty in winter? How long do manhole covers last? It may not be pretty ... but the stuff's tough.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    ...The moral of the story? The steel/rust paranoia is way out of control.
    I think so - which is why I posted a picture of my 80 year old steel bike. I've got a few old bikes, all steel, average age between 60 - 85 years, and rust is not a problem.

    I think a bike would have to be victim to spectacular neglect for there to be a rust problem in normal use.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAGI410 View Post
    The moral of the story? The steel/rust paranoia is way out of control.
    +1 - MTBR is great when people talk about experience they've had with specific bikes under specific conditions applicable to the OP. You can actually learn something useful.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    Re: Surly and rust?

    Agreed. Steel is awesome. My two year old troll has been through the ringer. And shows zero rust. Even if it did, it would take 20 years for performance to suffer.


    Sent from my LG-P769 using Tapatalk 2

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    My Pugs at 8 months old developed significant rust around the top tube mounted cable guides and other braze-ons. A few months later it was much worse, with tendrils of bubbled-up paint extending from the braze-ons. It never saw snow or salt water and was stored indoors. Must've been my extra caustic sweat. Strip and new PC for $120 took care of it, but still...
    Surly and rust?-p1000927.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    Let's put it this way ... the manhole covers on the streets are made of carbon steel ... pretty much the same stuff steel bikes are made out of ... and are the roads salty in winter? How long do manhole covers last? It may not be pretty ... but the stuff's tough.
    Manhole Cover = Gray Cast Iron / Not Steel / -- Average Weight = 250 Pounds. Not Plausible, please educate yourself as to why a manhole cover would be Substantially more corrosion resistant than a black steel bike frame.
    Thanks

    Other in general -----------------------------------------------------------

    I think it is high time industrial arts classes are brought back into middle and high schools as Mandatory. Jobs (including and in particular steel mills and metal processing) are Returning to the U.S.of A. and Canada. The work force available, particularly the younger work force concerns me.
    I write, add the above because it appears, much of the Basic's have been lost.

    Another link of value -

    Bicycle Frame Refinishing

    Enjoy the outdoors..........

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
    I think it is high time industrial arts classes are brought back into middle and high schools as Mandatory. Jobs (including and in particular steel mills and metal processing) are Returning to the U.S.of A. and Canada. The work force available, particularly the younger work force concerns me.
    I write, add the above because it appears, much of the Basic's have been lost.
    Hey, I'm a mechanical engineer designing seawater intakes and pipes among other things, I think I have some idea of the "Basic's".

    Actually, both carbon steel and cast iron are fine for corrosion. You can use carbon steel directly in seawater for a decade or more as long as you incorporate a corrosion allowance. And if you use galvanic protection it will last a very long time.

    It's stainless steels that are the problem since they corrode badly with chlorides.

    But this whole corrosion issue is way overblown, don't worry and just ride. I would make sure I don't have pockets of salt water sitting inside the frame but beyond this who cares.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    My Pugs at 8 months old developed significant rust around the top tube mounted cable guides and other braze-ons. A few months later it was much worse, with tendrils of bubbled-up paint extending from the braze-ons. It never saw snow or salt water and was stored indoors. Must've been my extra caustic sweat. Strip and new PC for $120 took care of it, but still...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's interesting, I would guess it's because the guides are made of a different alloy than the frame and galvanic corrosion is happening. The brazeons are acting like zincs on your boat. Or maybe it's the welding material.
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    My Pugs at 8 months old developed significant rust around the top tube mounted cable guides and other braze-ons
    Interesting. Did Surly warranty that for you?

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by evandy View Post
    Interesting. Did Surly warranty that for you?


    Surly warranty does not cover the finish:

    http://www.surlybikes.com/files/Frameset%20Warranty.pdf

    Although they have replaced frames when whole batches had problematic paint.

    The photo above is my Pugs after 4yrs including months camping at the beach and 2 Canadian winters. I would characterize my maintenance regime as - total neglect.

    If I had taken the time to wash the salt off my frame and wax it my bike would have looked sweet. Instead I just rode it and ignored maintenance for 4yrs.



    At that point I had it sandblasted and powder coated. It's as good as new.

    Knowing how lazy I am I'll probably be powder coating it again in another 4-5yrs. That doesn't bother me as that's about the time I get sick of the colour of a bike and want to hit reset anyways.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  69. #69
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    Hey Vik how did the inside of the tubes look?
    All I am saying is give pizza chants

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_BC View Post
    Hey Vik how did the inside of the tubes look?
    I didn't treat the frame when I built it up. There was nothing worrying visible at the seat tube, BB, head tube or steerer on the fork - which was what I could really see.

    I did spray the interior of the frame & fork with a rust proofing treatment this time when I got it back from the powder coater.

    I have moved away from Calgary where my Pugs would have seen road salt. OTOH - I am close enough to the ocean to hear the ship's horns at the harbour and have to keep an eye out for poo-bombing sea gulls.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    My Pugs at 8 months old developed significant rust around the top tube mounted cable guides and other braze-ons. A few months later it was much worse, with tendrils of bubbled-up paint extending from the braze-ons. It never saw snow or salt water and was stored indoors. Must've been my extra caustic sweat. Strip and new PC for $120 took care of it, but still...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thats just surface rust SmoothP, same as my Grey Pug i have and sripped to bare steel. It dissapeared with a few seconds on a grinder with a wire brush ... see here for pics

    coastrider: Return of an old friend... Pt1
    plan it...build it....ride it...love it....
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    NLspruce: I wouldn't give up on getting a moonlander yet. Certainly there's one your size at a bike shop somewhere, sitting there all lonely, and waiting for you to find it.
    As far as bikes that will handily accept the biggest tires, you'll have to spend a good bit more for something other than a moonlander. Of course, if you are fine with regular fat 4" tires, then there are quite a few more choices, and even some that can squeeze in the fattest tires if not on the fattest wheels. If corrosion is a major issue where you will ride, I would look at the Carver ti O'beast. for around $1400 and up for a frame, you can get a light, corrosion resistant fat bike frame.

    I'm still thinking positive. I'm meeting with my LBS on Tuesday to have a chat. I also located another bike shop on the other side of the province who is checking with his supplier. I got $$ burning a hole in my pocket . . . but not enough for a 190mm 9Zero7 or a Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evandy View Post
    Interesting. Did Surly warranty that for you?
    I didn't even try. Like Vik said, finish isn't covered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coastkid71 View Post
    Thats just surface rust SmoothP, same as my Grey Pug i have and sripped to bare steel. It dissapeared with a few seconds on a grinder with a wire brush ... see here for pics

    coastrider: Return of an old friend... Pt1
    Nice little story on your blog!

    I wish I took pics of it just before I got it refinished. It really looked bad. Each of those little bubbles had spread in multiple directions like fingers about an inch long. Multiply that by 3 sets of 3 cable guides and it looks like crap. Strip and powder coat fixed it, though:Surly and rust?-pugs_new_2.jpgSurly and rust?-pugs_new_3.jpg

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    Another smokin' green Pugger redux! Hulk style. Nice job Smoove. That's a nice shade and the black decals look great. I fell so hard for the black on black on my Necro when I first saw it and now I'm starting to look forward to a repaint. Sheesh.

    Funny enough, I thought if I did do it eventually (way before the new Ops surfaced), I thought I'd go for a campstove/army green. Still like the looks of it, but I'm not sold on the colour-matched RDs. Luuuv that new sandy Moonie with the black rims too. Gawd these are nice lookin' bikes. Gnarly overgrown BMXers...partly why I'll always like the Pug geo over some of the more relaxed stuff out there.

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    The lil' glimpse on the steerer is a nice touch too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frozenmonkey View Post
    Another smokin' green Pugger redux! Hulk style. Nice job Smoove. That's a nice shade and the black decals look great. I fell so hard for the black on black on my Necro when I first saw it and now I'm starting to look forward to a repaint. Sheesh.

    Funny enough, I thought if I did do it eventually (way before the new Ops surfaced), I thought I'd go for a campstove/army green. Still like the looks of it, but I'm not sold on the colour-matched RDs. Luuuv that new sandy Moonie with the black rims too. Gawd these are nice lookin' bikes. Gnarly overgrown BMXers...partly why I'll always like the Pug geo over some of the more relaxed stuff out there.
    The pugs geo doesn't seem very BMX like to me. Isn't the BB supposed to be a lot higher for a big BMX? and the top tube a bit longer?
    The original prototype for the On-One Fatty that Shiggy had designed would have been the perfect big BMX.

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    Maybe it's more mental impression and the playful feel of the fat bike that takes me back. Looks-wise, I think the tire width on these bikes skews the scale to look more BMX to me (80's dirt racers)...kinda smaller and tighter than a pure XC MTB. I run mine short stem and hi-riser FWIW. I thought the Pug was a bit longer in the top tube than most, but I might be wrong. In any event, the Pug and the Moonlander feel more MTB than the Mukluk to me. The O'Beast is the only other fatty I've tried and it felt somewhere in between, and really nice. Wanted a setback post on it and I felt like I coulda rode all day. The MTB feel of the Pug, modded by fat tires just feels really playful to me, and BMXish just comes to mind (maybe just my set up). I'm not really familiar with the On-One proto you mentioned but you're probably right about the BB height etc. The Singular Puffin looks like it's gonna be a ripper and if I had all the $$$ I wish I had to sink into a couple of fat bikes, I'd be all over it.

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