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  1. #1
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    Surly Pugsley Complete vs. Salsa Mukluk Complete... few questions

    Well, one main question: It appears that the Mukluk is a nicer bike than the Pugsley. So how is it priced $50 less at MSRP?

    The second question: is there a snowball's chance in hell of even getting a Mukluk before the end of the winter? I've been down this road before with Salsa in trying to get a Vaya, waiting months and months and months, and ending up with a Surly LHT because the Vayas were on backorder out the wazoo.

    Third question: Not meant to be sarcastic, but in case I'm missing something- if you had a choice, why would you choose the Pugsley over the Mukluk?

    My main beef with the Pugsley is the horizontal dropout, as I always plan to run it geared, and I like Salsa's dual rear spacing setup.

    Confused...

  2. #2
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    Hi there, My friend at Eurobike was told the Surly will be cheaper than the Salsa?, mmm dunno why then?
    looking at the two its like the Surly is the base line model and cheaper- but not any worse for it,
    and the Salsa a higher spec build, maybe cause the pugsley has a loyal following despite real nice frames from other manufacturers since...

    dont worry about the pugs rear drop outs, not that fiddly ,just need to get used to them
    the muckluk is ideal if you want 29er rims to have 2 in 1 bikes having inline wheels and the Pugsleys price will swing it for some folk who only want to buy a winter bike cheaper bike on a budget,

    pugsley is steel, Muckluk is alloy, again preferences there,

    pugsley is a proven design the Muckluck isnt

    but both will be fun to ride

    i just wonder if the Pugsley will be imported to the UK cause the Muckluk apparrently isnt, i know at least 20 folk here in the UK who want one...nothing to do with me and would proberly prefer to buy a cheap complete bike for around $1500 which will equate to about the same in s here,

    which would i buy? alloy for beachriding for makes sense for sure,but my steel pugsley fits me like a glove...and is real comfy
    im wanting to build a 2nd fatbike really light for xc riding next year and like those new Surly rims , but reckon it will be a 9zero7 alloy frame with carbon fork for me
    plan it...build it....ride it...love it....
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  3. #3
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    My confusion as far as price stems from Surly saying the Pugsley complete will be $1550 USD, while Salsa says the Mukluk complete will be $1500 USD.

    Salsa's supposed to be the premium brand, Surly the budget brand, usually there is more of a price difference.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX
    ...
    Third question: Not meant to be sarcastic, but in case I'm missing something- if you had a choice, why would you choose the Pugsley over the Mukluk?
    ...
    My interest in a fatbike was concretized through the Mukluk. After digging through a lot of stuff on the internet I chose a Pugsley for the following reasons: I wanted to run an Alfine hub, which pretty much meant the Pugsley and I really like that the Pugsley can use ordinary 135 mm hubs. The fact that the front and rear wheel are interchangeable is also nice, but hardly a deal breaker.

    If you only want to run conventional gears the Mukluk is probably the better one. An aluminium frame seems better for winter and beach riding and is lighter as well. The probability is IMO very high that Salsa has done their homework with the Mukluk and as such it might be a better bike (geometry, handling, etc) than the Pugsley. And the Mukluk has bottle mounts on the fork by default, something everybody should have.

    Now, the probability that I would get a complete Mukluk to my part of the world before spring is probably close to zero. My Pugsley frame arrived a few days ago, two weeks after it was ordered.
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  5. #5
    Harmonius Wrench
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    As of right now, if you have not pre-ordered a Mukluk, you won't get it this winter. The demand for the Mukluk complete has overwhelmed Salsa and I have heard that for people that have already pre-ordered, there will be a lot of folks waiting till February before they see a fat bike with a Salsa downtube decal. The bum rush for this bike has been astounding, from all accounts I have heard from dealers.

    That leaves you with a Surly Pugsley complete, (that is, if you want to ride this winter), and with that pricing, I am betting it will also sell through pretty quickly. If you are on the fence, ya better get off sooner than later, or I've a feeling Pugsleys will end up like the Mukluks.

    I say this, because the price is pretty aggressive. I don't know that you can build from a frame and get anywhere near that sort of price in the end for a complete.

    I am also willing to bet that Mukluks will be more expensive soon. Demand for the bike far outstrips supply. Hmm.......something about this reminds me of economics class......
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  6. #6
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    Freaking Salsa. I swear they do this on purpose, the severe lack of product- I mean I know having more demand than product is good to build buzz, but when people can't get bikes for months and months and months, that just sucks. I thought maybe after the Vaya's ****storm of backorders they would have made it a little easier for people to buy their bikes.

  7. #7
    Harmonius Wrench
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJaredX
    Freaking Salsa. I swear they do this on purpose, the severe lack of product- I mean I know having more demand than product is good to build buzz, but when people can't get bikes for months and months and months, that just sucks. I thought maybe after the Vaya's ****storm of backorders they would have made it a little easier for people to buy their bikes.
    Well, it is hard to predict demand. Salsa (nor Surly up until now) had ever had a complete snow bike in the line up. No data from dealers, no real idea of market support. (Not in hard numbers, at any rate)

    One dealer I talked to said he has about three times the pre-orders he would have liberally predicted going in.

    There's always surprises in marketing a new bicycle or concept for using a bicycle, (Fargo, Vaya). I wouldn't have predicted the interest in drop bar 29"ers, for instance, that there is. No way. but I get tons of hits and contacts regarding the subject.

    I think Salsa finds itself hitting a lot of "buttons" that people are responding to in greater numbers than anyone could have imagined. One of the good examples of not hitting it, (from a Salsa standpoint), is the El Go-Go, the tri/time trial bike they did, that was a total flop.

    So, its just one of those things, I think. salsa just happens to have "hit a home run" a time or two lately, and the Mukluk is another one.
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  8. #8
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    Fair enough. I think I will go with your theory, as it makes them not seem evil

  9. #9
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    I do not see any complete Pugsley bike at http://surlybikes.com/bikes/. Where did you find this?

    As far as I know, there are no studded fat tires. How are the fat bikes really doing on ice and hardpacked, icy surface?
    Haavard

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvrdberger
    I do not see any complete Pugsley bike at http://surlybikes.com/bikes/. Where did you find this?
    http://surlybikes.com/blog/2386/

    Quote Originally Posted by hvrdberger
    As far as I know, there are no studded fat tires. How are the fat bikes really doing on ice and hardpacked, icy surface?
    I'll leave someone who owns one to answer this But I have seen pictures of homemade studded tires on fatbikes

  11. #11
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    Studded Larry!

    Seems like someone studded the Larries:

    Studded Larry!

    Show me your studded Larry!
    Haavard

  12. #12
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    I'm thinking part of the problem could be that snow bikes run opposite the normal product cycle. Demand is high right now, whereas for most bikes it is six months from now.

    I know our shop has had a hell of a time getting Pugsleys, rims and tires. They tend to become available in February when nobody wants them.

  13. #13
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    I'd like to buy a Mukluk/Pugsley in February! Unfortunately I have little space for fifth bike now...
    Haavard

  14. #14
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    I'm worried about tyres now the world and his wife seems to want a mukluk.

    Me I want a fatback ti :-)

  15. #15
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    does anyone actually know the part spec on the pugs complete? I think that would be a bigger influence on price. If nothing else the Large Marge's are spendier than the shebas

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthony.delorenzo
    I'm thinking part of the problem could be that snow bikes run opposite the normal product cycle. Demand is high right now, whereas for most bikes it is six months from now.

    I know our shop has had a hell of a time getting Pugsleys, rims and tires. They tend to become available in February when nobody wants them.
    I bought mine in February. Feb & Mar are still prime time winter in my neck of the woods. Although I have a FS Mtbike also, I do ride the Pugs quite a bit year round!
    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/3AZt70aQwjQZVGL_GkM3bw?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WYKnoMRX3tc/S9jaPzxN6NI/AAAAAAAADM8/zoJTnTJukxk/s800/SnowRide28.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/BlackCanoeDog/SnowBiking2010?feat=embedwebsite">Snow Biking 2010</a></td></tr></table>

    <table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/gFODqZnAmRmaYSQeifpF8g?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WYKnoMRX3tc/S_fvl776KnI/AAAAAAAADSA/YDedXGAe3jw/s800/1.jpg" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/BlackCanoeDog/FatBikeMisc?feat=embedwebsite">Fat Bike Misc.</a></td></tr></table>
    https://picasaweb.google.com/113125576961447749127

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  17. #17
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    If demand is as strong as people are indicating I think you'll see prices rise in the short term until other manufacturers get on the bandwagon and start to produce fatbikes. Look for Trek to notice that this is a profitable market. In five years we'll be seeing $200 fatbikes in WalMart. LOL

  18. #18
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    I bet Fatbacks and 907s don't have the wait times listed above and both those shops have shipped stuff all over the world. Both also make very reasonably priced versions.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak
    I bet Fatbacks and 907s don't have the wait times listed above and both those shops have shipped stuff all over the world. Both also make very reasonably priced versions.
    Unless something has changed, Wildfire's website says their complete bikes start at $2500. And the 907 alum frame is $499, which is basically the Pugsley frame price, so much like the Pugsley unless I patiently scoured various online bike shops and eBay for parts, I am not too sure I'd be able to build one for $1500. That plus I don't have the time what with my family life and work to build a bike so I'd have to pay for labor anyway.

  20. #20
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    XJaredX, I used the FatBack as my other example and not the Wildfire Fatbike. You are probably correct that you couldn't build either the 907 or FatBack for $1500 but from what it sounds like reading earlier in this thread you won't be able to gat a Mukluck for a long time. I was just trying to point out that there are relatively inexpensive alternatives that are available without he long wait. If they don't work for you I hope something else will. Good Luck

  21. #21
    Fat!Drunk!Slow!
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    I've seen both the FatBack and the 907 built up with price tags for around 1800-1900 that are ready to go at their respective bike shops. Call up Speedway or CRC to see what they can do for you if you just can't wait just to save a few hundred bucks.

  22. #22
    will rant for food
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    I will provide an unfortunate echo here... I have a spreadsheet of a fat bike parts list, with a few frames as options. I could build up a single speed fat bike for about $1350, assuming I already have a truing stand and can lace up a wheel, and hit up every deal possible.

  23. #23
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    I really like the looks of the Salsa. The prices they're asking for both the Salsa and Surly are hard to resist, seeing that I had my "budget" Pugsley built in March for close to 1800. I love my Pugs and have said I'd never look at another snow bike. Damn you Salsa! I have a 20 year old Ala Carte, so have been a Salsa enthusiast for a long time, at least the exclusive hand built bike from California. They're still great quality bikes, however, I'm really surprised by the aluminum. They were hardcore cromoly manufacturers forever and have changed their stance on materials (titanium, aluminum, etc). This is not a complaint, but I am surprised by it. I'd like to try a Mukluk out some time.

  24. #24
    bikeboatbrewski
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    I want a Pugsley.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak
    XJaredX, I used the FatBack as my other example and not the Wildfire Fatbike. You are probably correct that you couldn't build either the 907 or FatBack for $1500 but from what it sounds like reading earlier in this thread you won't be able to gat a Mukluck for a long time. I was just trying to point out that there are relatively inexpensive alternatives that are available without he long wait. If they don't work for you I hope something else will. Good Luck

    Oops, yeah didn't know that existed haha. Even though the banner ad is at the top of every thread in this forum.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvrdberger
    I do not see any complete Pugsley bike at http://surlybikes.com/bikes/. Where did you find this?
    It's there now! So now that we know the build specs we can do a proper comparison between the Pugsley/Mukluk. I'm leaning towards the Pugs myself.

  27. #27
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_pilot
    I'm worried about tyres now the world and his wife seems to want a mukluk.
    You're telling me

    Wife and I tried a pair of Mukluks a couple of days ago. They're a bucketload of fun, and my wife couldn't stop laughing. At 4'8", the XS is rideable for my wife.

    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  28. #28
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    The Pugsley Complete is on Surly's web site:
    http://surlybikes.com/bikes/pugsley_complete/

    Large Marge rims, Larry in the front, Endomorph in the back. I gotta get one of these.

    It surprises me that it comes with an 11-32 cassette instead of an 11-34 or 12-36, but maybe that's fatbike appropriate and I just don't know it yet

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil
    ...Wife and I tried a pair of Mukluks a couple of days ago...
    You make it look so easy...

    Edit: Thought I recognised you - were you at Aviemore for the World Champs in 07? We exchanged grunts.
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  30. #30
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike
    You make it look so easy...

    Edit: Thought I recognised you - were you at Aviemore for the World Champs in 07? We exchanged grunts.
    Yessir, Aviemore was a blast as well. Hope you had fun playing at ibike. I'm glad I made it out.

    Even though the Salsa was great, I can't wait that long for a fatbike. I'm swinging towards the Surly.
    "Keep your burgers lean and your tires fat." -h.d. | ssoft | flickr

  31. #31
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    Mukluk chosen

    Thank you for all the great info. I chose the Mukluk over the Pugsley after reading many comments. My new Mukluk arrived Monday and I spent Tuesday evening putting it together. Good thing the neighbors couldn't see me test riding across their lawns at 10:15 last night.

    I called Salsa to find out where to get the Mukluk in Florida but the only dealer (120 miles away) had none and Salsa said they were sold out. However, he did mention several bike shops that sold mail order and Bikeman.com had all sizes in stock with free shipping for $1499. Bikeman also pre-assembles the bike so it was a quick build.

    A little research revealed to me that Surly and Salsa are both owned by Quality Bicycle Products (see Wikipedia). My Mukluk came with Surly Larry tires and Handspun Fat Sheba Rims; Handspun is also owned by QBP. I also got a hint from Salsa that upgraded models will be out for 2012 so the days of the $1500 fatbike may be numbered. This is a great bike for the money; since QPB is the parts source it seems easy to eliminate the distributors' markup on the components. First trailride this Saturday! We'll see how the Salsa like sugar sand!

  32. #32
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    Surly pricing

    Hi, I just found a very low price for the Pug and I would like to go ahead and buy but I would like to check with you if you have reviews on this seller called wheelsdirectstore dot com

    Many thanks,
    Italiano

  33. #33
    Geordie biker
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    i have owned a 2011 mukluk complete and now own a 2011 pugsley complete.

    mukluk isnt as well made as the pugsley, ride wise they are very similar.

    sizing is slightly different, 19'' was perfect on the mukluk, 20'' is perfect on the pug for my 6ft body.

    they are both too similar for me to decide over, prehaps a more technical guy can say more, but i only opted for the salsa first as it was new. i almost had another but decided on the pug for my second fat.

    its upto colour choice mainly, id prefer the pug if it was matt black like the new black ops one coming out.


    what ever you choose, they are both fine bikes.
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  34. #34
    Frt Range, CO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italiano View Post
    Hi, I just found a very low price for the Pug and I would like to go ahead and buy but I would like to check with you if you have reviews on this seller called wheelsdirectstore dot com....
    Pretty common scam, they change the name of the company all the time so there's no reviews. Send them money, never hear from them again....

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italiano View Post
    Hi, I just found a very low price for the Pug and I would like to go ahead and buy but I would like to check with you if you have reviews on this seller called wheelsdirectstore dot com

    Many thanks,
    Italiano
    I'm always suspicious of a vendor that's mentioned by a new MTBR member on their first post (or even their 24th post, such as that Ventura person.) But I also noticed that this vendor can't even spell "Surly" correctly in their left-side navigation bar.

  36. #36
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    I decided I could not wait for a Mukluk, so I went ahead and bought the Pugsley. I took my first ride yesterday on a normal single track trail, and it was huge fun, like riding a giant BMX bike. Lots of great comments as well. Even my wife loved the looks and name (both brand and model) of the bike. I also stopped by a local shop that has something like 15 Muk 2's they are putting together, plus 2 on the floor, and honestly, I think it's a wash between the two bikes. I like the steel frame (tougher than aluminum, prefer the feel, add a little frame saver and no problems), the crank and the brake set of the Pugs better, but the shifters/derailliers and hubs and rims of the Muk better. Oh yeah- my Pugs was $1200, the Muks are $1550-ish. As far as weight, the Muk may be a few pounds lighter, but it's not like it's sub 30#. The difference lifting the two bikes was nearly imperceptible- you save a few pounds with the frame, but everything else is very similar.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by saltyman View Post
    mukluk isnt as well made as the pugsley
    Can you elaborate on why you feel it's not as well made?

  38. #38
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    the welds are rough and also the actual tubing looks rather weak on various parts of the salsa. namely the chainstays and around the rear of the bike in general.

    thin aluminium on stress areas isnt good, especially on 38+lbs of bike. never read any horror stories yet though.

    there were a few places on the salsa id like to of seen beefed up or changed.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    I decided I could not wait for a Mukluk, so I went ahead and bought the Pugsley. I took my first ride yesterday on a normal single track trail, and it was huge fun, like riding a giant BMX bike. Lots of great comments as well. Even my wife loved the looks and name (both brand and model) of the bike. I also stopped by a local shop that has something like 15 Muk 2's they are putting together, plus 2 on the floor, and honestly, I think it's a wash between the two bikes. I like the steel frame (tougher than aluminum, prefer the feel, add a little frame saver and no problems), the crank and the brake set of the Pugs better, but the shifters/derailliers and hubs and rims of the Muk better. Oh yeah- my Pugs was $1200, the Muks are $1550-ish. As far as weight, the Muk may be a few pounds lighter, but it's not like it's sub 30#. The difference lifting the two bikes was nearly imperceptible- you save a few pounds with the frame, but everything else is very similar.
    How did you get a Pug for $1,200, was it used?

  40. #40
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    I don't have a salsa, buy can understand what you're saying. I'm not a fan of aluminum anything.

    Steel is STILL real

  41. #41
    ejj
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    I'd normally agree, as I own a Surly trucker, but I don't think you can compare the Mukluk to a steel bike, as the tires add a huge amount of dampening/suspension to the frame. Also, the welds on aluminum bikes are a little different than steel, and that might play in to the general appearance.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejj View Post
    I'd normally agree, as I own a Surly trucker, but I don't think you can compare the Mukluk to a steel bike, as the tires add a huge amount of dampening/suspension to the frame. Also, the welds on aluminum bikes are a little different than steel, and that might play in to the general appearance.
    Part of the Muks appeal is that you can make it into a rigid 29er MTB so it better be built to withstand that sort of abuse with skinny 2.1"-2.3" tires.

    Having said that Taiwan is so good at making AL MTBs given the sheer number produced it's likely that the design is bomber or it wouldn't have made it to a complete product.
    Safe riding,

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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by imafunkyman View Post
    I really like the looks of the Salsa. The prices they're asking for both the Salsa and Surly are hard to resist, seeing that I had my "budget" Pugsley built in March for close to 1800. I love my Pugs and have said I'd never look at another snow bike. Damn you Salsa! I have a 20 year old Ala Carte, so have been a Salsa enthusiast for a long time, at least the exclusive hand built bike from California. They're still great quality bikes, however, I'm really surprised by the aluminum. They were hardcore cromoly manufacturers forever and have changed their stance on materials (titanium, aluminum, etc). This is not a complaint, but I am surprised by it. I'd like to try a Mukluk out some time.
    Aluminum is cheaper than steel

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