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  1. #51
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    170mm rear spacing on my frame just wondering if a more narrow rim will change the tire profile enough to fit without rubbing

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upinflames7 View Post
    not sure what spoke tension has to do with the chain hitting
    and when I lean non drive side over it will actually lightly rub.
    That's why, but yes, a 65mm rim will most likely let your tire fit without rub if you get 1/8" of clearance currently.

    I would also highly recommend a clutch-type derailleur, that also significantly cuts down on chain-slap and any rub that results from it. You can run really close to the tire with this type of derailleur with no problems (where with an older or non-clutch design you can't, it will eat-through)
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  3. #53
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    I do plan on upgrading the rear mech but still would like more clearance as a lot of crap gets tossed into the chain by it being so near the tire

  4. #54
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    I don't know if this will help, but my 3.8" 27 tpi Surly Larrys mounted on Marge Lites measure only 3 9/16" (3.56") wide at 10 lbs of pressure. Larry got up to 3 5/8" wide at 20 lbs of pressure.
    On the same Marge Lites, my new 60 tpi 4" Halo Nanuks at 10 lbs of pressure, measure just 3.5" wide. At 20 lbs, they were about 3 17/32"+ (or, not quite 3 9/16") wide.
    These #s using a good old analog sliding caliper.

  5. #55
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    I tend to lean towards the wider side. My formula is tire size in inches * 20 = target rim width in mm.
    4.8" on 100mm rim, 4" tire on 80mm, 3" tire on a 50-65mm etc.
    For summer, I am running a 26x3.5 on a 100mm CS because that is the biggest slick I can find...a little oversteer on hard turns but fast on pavement and great traction while commuting through woods.
    I am searching for a 3.5-4.0" road tire that I could run tubeless on a 27.5x80mm rim or a 3.0 on a 29x65mm rim and save Bud & Lou and the 100mm CS for heavy snow.

  6. #56
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    A wider rim doesn't necessarily give a wider tire contact patch like most people think it does. I used to run 100mm with 4" tires because I thought it did, but then I measured the imprint width in the sand of 4" tires on 100mm and 80mm rims. At around 5 psi, they were the exact same width. The tread width stays the same.

    The tires on 100mm rims look wider because the sidewall is further out but the side wall doesn't contact the ground in normal riding pressures so your not gaining any additional float unless your tire is sinking in up to the sidewalls and if its sunk that deep in the terrain resistance will be so high you're probably better off walking.

    IMO, rims wider than 65mm offer no real advantage for non-snow riding and are just extra weight, and a give a terrible tire profile. I went from 100mm to 80mm rims, and even the 80mm rim profile on a 4" tire is not very good, so I'm going to 60mm rims.

    For winter I'll run 4.8 tires on 60mm rims and 4" tires on the 60's for the other 3 seasons.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    For winter I'll run 4.8 tires on 60mm rims and 4" tires on the 60's for the other 3 seasons.
    Exactly what I do. Bud / Bud on 65 for winter and Jumbo Jim's 4.0 on 65 for summer. Couldn't be happier and works for my all season riding here in Michigan.

  8. #58
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    is there any 65mm rims aluminium and tubless ? now i am no dt 710 but thinking about 65mm rims

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cka3o4nuk View Post
    is there any 65mm rims aluminium and tubless ? now i am no dt 710 but thinking about 65mm rims
    Marge lites are aluminum and I'm pretty sure I've seen people make them tubeless relatively easy through a few different methods.

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  10. #60
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    I wish that they made a Marge Lite in a 29+...a 65mm wide Rabbit Hole.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welnic View Post
    The main advantage of wider rims with any bike tire and rim combination isn't that the contact patch gets bigger with the wider rim at the same pressure, it is that you can run a lower pressure with the wider rim and it will work. ...
    Welnic speaks the truth!
    Weight / psi = size of contact patch
    If you have a 170 lb rider on a 30 lb bike, that equals 200 lbs. So if the tires are inflated to 10psi...
    200 lb / 10psi = 20 sq in of rubber touching the ground. Drop the pressure to 5psi and you end up with a 40 sq in contact patch. Makes no difference if the tire is a 29 x 3 or a 26 x 5, as long as there is enough pressure to keep the rim airborne, the contact patch is the same size.
    A larger tire will have a wider contact patch with less lengthwise flattening of the tread when compared to a smaller tire.

    Likewise, the air pressure on the inside surface of the rim is what supports the bike, so the amount of sidewall deformation is a direct product of rim size both in circumference and width. A tire mounted on a 50mm wide rim will have twice the sidewall deformation as that same tire mounted on a 100mm rim at the same pressure. That means that that a BFL can run at half the pressure on a 100mm rim without burping or bottoming out than what would be possible on a 50mm.
    Same thing with rim diameter, a 26 rim needs 11% more pressure to keep the rim airborne as opposed to a 29+ of the same width. So the sidewall deformation of a 29+ running at 10psi is the equivalent of as a 26 running at 11psi but because the 29+ is at a lower pressure, it will have more rubber on the ground.
    Bottom line, if you are running on soft surfaces, a larger rim will allow you to have a larger contact patch without bottoming out but the trade off is that it comes at the expense of additional rotating mass.
    Last edited by FatBike&SlenderWoman; 04-27-2016 at 06:38 AM.

  12. #62
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    I built up a Borealis Echo with DTswiss BR710 rims, 80mm, running tubeless Bud and Lou 4.8". I'm around 190lbs and ride mostly undulated terrain and the beach along with some snow trails. Reason for this is broad application, i can run the tires well inflated for quicker runs in the summer and on harder surfaces with still a nice grip once its gets slippery and enough flotation for the occasional sand patches that i encounter at the east end of Long Island. When i want to take the rig on the beach i just deflate severely and im good to go. The other day i did a ride when i expected and harder packed surface, but 2 min in i noticed it's all loose sand, so deflation and i was ready to go (for the most part). I ended up on a harder packed beach with some soft patches and all was good. Sometimes i wish for a 29" setup for summer harder and quicker trail runs, but they are only a few, i'm happy with my setup. Maybe Jumbo Jim is my future...

  13. #63
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    I currently own a Salsa Blackborow with 100mm Clown shoes, while its great in the snow it is slow as molasses compared to my Jones in the summer. Thinking if I find a set of Marge Lites or even 80mm wheels I'll be much happier in the dry months. Oh and I only weight 145# so I really don't need the wide wheels I don't think.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by edved37 View Post
    I currently own a Salsa Blackborow with 100mm Clown shoes, while its great in the snow it is slow as molasses compared to my Jones in the summer. Thinking if I find a set of Marge Lites or even 80mm wheels I'll be much happier in the dry months. Oh and I only weight 145# so I really don't need the wide wheels I don't think.
    I don't think it would be a huge difference to drop to a 65mm rim if you are still running 4.8" tires. And if you go to smaller tires the bottom bracket will drop. If you are going to get a new wheelset anyway I would try 27.5"x3.8" or 29"x3".

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welnic View Post
    I don't think it would be a huge difference to drop to a 65mm rim if you are still running 4.8" tires. And if you go to smaller tires the bottom bracket will drop. If you are going to get a new wheelset anyway I would try 27.5"x3.8" or 29"x3".
    I would run a 3.8 tire most likely which along with he 65mm rim should drop 3-5 lbs off what I'm running now I would think and the blackborow has a higher bottom bracket so I didn't think the drop would effect it too much, but I could be wrong.
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by edved37 View Post
    I would run a 3.8 tire most likely which along with he 65mm rim should drop 3-5 lbs off what I'm running now I would think and the blackborow has a higher bottom bracket so I didn't think the drop would effect it too much, but I could be wrong.
    Going to 3.8" with the 65mm rim will be a big difference. You should just put the 3.8" tires you are going to use on your 100mm rims and see what you think. You won't be able to get as rowdy with the 100mm as the rims won't be that well protected, but it should give you a good feel for the bottom bracket height. Rim width doesn't affect tire diameter very much.

  17. #67
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    Love this forum! I had a concern on building up a summer wheelset and low and behold, after a google search I find this thread. So, my question to you all... I'd like to build a 65mm wheelset to use with 4" tires for summer trail riding. Currently have 100mm clownshoes on 4.8 JJ's. Will there be a significant difference in diameter?? Any help would be appreciated.

  18. #68
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    Yeah. They'll be smaller. I can take a picture when I get home. I happen to have one bike with 65mm rims and 4" tires and another with 100mm rims and 4.8" tires.
    The little ones look anemic in comparison.
    If you want diameter, build a pair of 29+ wheels for summer. Almost exactly the same as 4.8" tires in height. My son doesn't even want his Marge Lites and Huskerdus any more. He likes his 29+ so much he asked for Darryls and 4.8" tires for fat.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Branner View Post
    ...I'd like to build a 65mm wheelset to use with 4" tires ...Will there be a significant difference in diameter?
    If the tires stay the same, there will be no difference in diameter.
    All other things being equal, the differences are threefold:
    A narrow rim will reduce rolling mass while increasing casing flex which will result in a softer ride at the expense of handling and load capacity. A narrow rim also reduces exposure to rim and casing damage due to terrain hazards.

    I wider rim spreads out the casing, reducing flex which increases the load capacity allowing one to gain a larger footprint by running at lower tire pressures. This comes at the expense of added rotating mass but is usually preferable on soft surfaces such as sand and snow.

    It has been my experience that 3.5-4.0" tires on 100mm rims exhibit significant self-steer when ridden on hard surfaces. Self-steer is reduced on rims with less than 80mm inner bead-bead width.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    ...If you want diameter, build a pair of 29+ wheels for summer. Almost exactly the same as 4.8" tires in height...
    Mega dittos! A 29+ wheelset will be lighter while maintaining the same diameter and pedal clearance.
    The diameter of a 3.0 x 29 Knard is identical to a 4.8 x 26 Bud but the effect on the bike is akin to turning a Hummer into a Mustang.

    (see link below)
    Last edited by FatBike&SlenderWoman; 10-14-2016 at 01:19 PM.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by N8R View Post
    ...I measured the imprint width in the sand of 4" tires on 100mm and 80mm rims. At around 5 psi, they were the exact same width. The tread width stays the same...
    True, weight of bike - tire psi = contact patch in sq in. So if you maintain the same tire pressure, the contact patch area will be the same regardless of rims or tires.

    A 100mm rim has 20% more load capacity than an 80mm, so the load capacity and rolling resistance of a tire running 5psi on an 80mm rim is equivalent to the same tire at 4psi on a 100mm rim.
    If you are riding on firmer surfaces at higher pressures, the narrow rim has the weight advantage.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatBike&SlenderWoman View Post
    If the tires stay the same, there will be no difference in diameter.
    Except you deleted the part where he said he was using 4.8" tires now, so not likely for him that the diameter will stay the same after the switch to narrower rims and smaller tires.
    It would be helpful to know what the new tire will be.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    ...It would be helpful to know what the new tire will be.
    Agreed, my point was that tire diameter is determined by tire size and is not affected by rim width. A Vee Apache Fattyslick or a 29+ wheelset would be the answer for someone looking for lighter, faster summer wheels while maintaining the same diameter and ride height.

  23. #73
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    Sry & FBSW: Here's more info.. My bike is a 2016 Salsa Blackborow, size medium. Currently running clownshoes on 4.8" JJ's. I want to run a 65mm with either a 4" or 4.4" JJ for summer riding along with a suspension fork. I tried a 29+ bike and didn't like it. I like the confidence I get from the fat tires and want a fun, sporty ride for the summer. I'm 99% sure that's the direction I'll be heading.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Branner View Post
    Sry & FBSW: Here's more info.. My bike is a 2016 Salsa Blackborow
    Like you, I ride a 2016 Blackborow with Bud, Lou and/or JJ 5's tubeless on Clown Shoes.
    In March, at the end of snow season, I installed a set of 3.5 x 26 Vee Speedsters on the Clown Shoes for added speed and to avoid trashing the expensive knobby tires when riding on pavement and dry trails.
    With the smaller diameter tires, it soon became evident that the stock 39-11 top ratio was not tall enough for running on pavement.
    With the 1" lower ride height, pedal strikes also became an issue when riding off road on rough terrain and climbing stairs.
    So, I bit the bullet and laced up a 29+ NoTubes Hugo wheelset that is the same diameter as the 26" fatties which has enabled me to run with the road bikes on the summer rides.
    (You can click this link for details and photos)
    Notubes Hugo 52mm Rim

    Quote Originally Posted by Branner View Post
    I like the confidence I get from the fat tires...
    As I eluded to above, running a lighter, faster wheel that is smaller in diameter seems counter productive to me.
    If you want to stick with the 4" tires, I would suggest doing a 27.5 wheelset. That way, you would maintain close to the same ride height and gear inches.

    (see link below to compare tires and rims)

  25. #75
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    Bud and Lou tubed / 100mm Clownshoes on a Fatboy Trail Pro with Bluto. About 1/4" clearance front and rear. I weigh 210 lbs.

    The whole setup works fine but barely. If I went tubeless or got rowdy in gnarly stuff I'd probably have at least a little tire rub going on.

  26. #76
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    I used to run rolling Daryl's on my old 907.
    I swapped to a Marge lite up front, and now 65mm nextie on my bucksaw.
    Overall the 65mm runs are better for everything.

  27. #77
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    Small 65mm rim vs Medium 80mm rim vs 100mm rim and tire sizes/profiles.

    I have some experience on 3 setups from 80-90 mm rims and 3.8 to 4.6 tires, and my riding weight is 210ish. The softer the terrain, the better a wider the rim is. The said, tread design and psi usually makes a bigger difference.

    I think you will get the best all around with an 80mm rim and then an appropriate tread for the terrain. Going extreme doesn't yield you that much more riding capability, that is fun anyways. Going 100mm rims with 5.0 tires might get you out another day or two. If all you do is ride sugar sand dunes, then that would be awesome. Like all things, if you have a specific use in mind, the best solution usually means giving up some function elsewhere.

    This winter I plan to pick up some Bud and Lou's to put on my 80mm rims...... I will run the Kendas until we have snow. Studded CX bike for when it's icey, which is most of the time


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  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upinflames7 View Post
    not sure what spoke tension has to do with the chain hitting as it is just gravity working not wheel flex as I can just stand and lean the bike over and the chain touches the tire
    I've had bikes where the tire rubbed the chainstays under power and tightening the spokes helped. So with little clearance, these things become more critical.
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  29. #79
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    I'm really liking my 80mm rims with JJ 4.0/4.8, but I don't have anything to compare them against as far as fatbikes. My experience has been limited to riding my friends fatboy a few times.

    I want to build a new set of carbon wheels, basically just to save some weight, but now I'm very torn on what to build. I was planning to get 80mm carbon, but the Nextie 90mm have caught my eye. Love the looks of the snow dragon. Problem is I don't really want to change how the bike rides, just save some weight. I bought the bike originally for snow, but it's too much fun on dirt to be only for snow. Will there be a significant difference going from 80mm to 90mm with 4.0/4.8 tires? I don't want/need the tires any wider.

    Now, tHis thread has me thinking about 65mm rims. Would the 65mm perform well with 4.0/4.8 tires? I already have 2 new sets of tires in those sizes, so I don't really want to get more. I have a couple nice bikes for summer riding, but I have a feeling I'll be riding the fatty a lot in the summer now. 155lbs with gear.

  30. #80
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    Nice Rog....still wanna ride with you someday on one of your "rest" days....

  31. #81
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    Not to pick at an old thread..
    I have 80mm rims...

    But I have been riding 99% in the dirt (only1 snow trip this year) and I have been Bud front and Nate rear for the last two years - Bud Finally stopped holding air tubeless (I have to scrape a lot of goo out of that thing) so I put on a pair of (Framed) 4.0s until I have time to get it done.. My bike is named the Nimble Beast (Necromancer - Pugs)- and now I remember why - with a smaller font the bike handles much better - I do not have the adventure level traction but it is way more lively on the trail..

    I miss the grin and point my bike where I want to go feel of the Bud - I went from the Jetty in South Mission Beach CA to Tourmaline Beach (about 6 miles each way) and back in the soft sand two weeks ago for a workout... I made it... and it was a workout!!

    I guess I need a moonlander and my pugs...
    My bike is heavier than yours - it does not have Carbon or Titanium parts - I love it!

  32. #82
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    Since the last time I participated in this thread, I built up a set of My Other Brother Darryls for my regular fat bike. They are about 200 grams lighter apiece than the Clownshoes they replaced and since they're 20mm narrower, they altered the tire profile slightly. Bike feels so much better and faster.
    Plus, they set up tubeless without split tube, so further weight loss.
    Total win.
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  33. #83
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    I think this is pretty simple with fat bikes: most if not all original/OEM wheels are heavy alu ones, much worse then carbon alternatives. Going from alu to carbon will be good independently of rim width, weight saving will be (relatively) brutal along with increase in stiffness. There are very few alu rims that can compete with carbon IMO, maybe DT swiss 80mm alu thing can come close to 100mm double-walled carbon (in weight, not in stiffness I suppose), all others are much worse. Branded carbon wheels cost is absurd at this point (IMO), BUT we got chinese carbon "phenomena" situation, where carbon wheels from china can cost less then branded alu.

    So generally if you want to get fast fat bike the first thing to do is to drop original wheels and get carbons, chinese ones to be cost effective. And the width choise is secondary at this point.

    And going down to specifics, basically what chinede carbon players offer, Nextie got some new (?) single-wall (meaning tubeless with no tape) 85mm rims, which are about 500gr each, pair them with lightweight/sturdy DT Swiss hubs, and thats it... 85mm is the best. Because you can get them cheap (well, relatively) and light.

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  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weinerts View Post
    Not to pick at an old thread..
    I have 80mm rims...

    But I have been riding 99% in the dirt (only1 snow trip this year) and I have been Bud front and Nate rear for the last two years - Bud Finally stopped holding air tubeless (I have to scrape a lot of goo out of that thing) so I put on a pair of (Framed) 4.0s until I have time to get it done.. My bike is named the Nimble Beast (Necromancer - Pugs)- and now I remember why - with a smaller font the bike handles much better - I do not have the adventure level traction but it is way more lively on the trail..

    I miss the grin and point my bike where I want to go feel of the Bud - I went from the Jetty in South Mission Beach CA to Tourmaline Beach (about 6 miles each way) and back in the soft sand two weeks ago for a workout... I made it... and it was a workout!!

    I guess I need a moonlander and my pugs...
    Since I last posted in this thread advocating for 65mm rims, I've since built up a new bike using 27.5 x i45mm rims. It's faster in nearly every sense and performs better in most of the conditions that I encounter. I don't see much snow, though; I'm about to ride in 5 inches of slush in a little bit. At my size, flotation is out of the question and I've found that 27.5x3.8 Bontrager Hodags do just fine most of the time, even in the snow.

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