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  1. #1
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    Thought you guys might be interested in the latest rim offering here at Velocity, the 45mm wide double-walled Dually. It's being offered in 26 & 29" to start, preorders start today.

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-dually-final.jpg

    There's some more info here: Velocity USA: Introducing the "mid fat" 45mm Dually rim

    And here: Velocity Wheels
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  2. #2
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    Tubeless ready, it says.

  3. #3
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    Will you have wide enough tape/conversion kits for these rims to go tubeless?
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  4. #4
    All fat, all the time.
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    MMMMMMMM...spokeless.....

  5. #5
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    Might be a pretty nice option for guys wanting to run suspension on their Kampi.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    MMMMMMMM...spokeless.....
    They use magnets!

  7. #7
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    But how much will they weigh after we drill 'em!

  8. #8
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    These look very interesting.
    Though i wonder if all numbers are correct, this one is doublewalled and claiming 675gr for 29" inch version (600gr for the 26") and the singlewalled Rabbit hole weights 699gr.

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    No spoke holes are shown in the picture: will it be drilled with offset spoke holes (like a Surly Rabbit Hole), or is it center-drilled?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vighor View Post
    These look very interesting.
    Though i wonder if all numbers are correct, this one is doublewalled and claiming 675gr for 29" inch version (600gr for the 26") and the singlewalled Rabbit hole weights 699gr.
    The figures are correct based on the weight of the Dually extrusions we have in-hand. Foot by foot, the 45mm Dually weighs about the same as our Cliffhanger extrusion, so we're pretty confident on the conservative sub-700g figure.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  11. #11
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnroyal View Post
    No spoke holes are shown in the picture: will it be drilled with offset spoke holes (like a Surly Rabbit Hole), or is it center-drilled?
    Due to the shape of the rim, it's going to be center drilled to keep the spokes in the spoke bed.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  12. #12
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    Will you have wide enough tape/conversion kits for these rims to go tubeless?
    Since the rim is going to be center drilled, our 24mm tape and conversion kit should work just fine on the rim, just as with the Blunt 35.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  13. #13
    Harrumph
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    Very nice, I've been a little underwhelmed with the RabbitHoles. And very impressed with the Blunt 35s. The wider rim's only advantage being tire performance at really low pressures.

    The Dually looks to take that single advantage away for me.

    I'm also not a fan of the offset spoke holes on 700c rims. If used with lower flange/narrow flange-to-flange hubs, the dished side can have a very low bracing angle.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  14. #14
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    You guys make nice rims and I enjoy building with them, riding them, and selling them.

    But...

    ...calling *any* rim you make tubeless ready is, quite frankly, BS. Nothing about the extrusion is made or meant to hold a tire on sans tube. Wrapping it with an overpriced piece of tape does nothing to accomplish this.

    Please stop calling them tubeless ready. In the end, your lawyers are going to advise you to do the same. My intent here is not to slander, but to keep innocent and unsuspecting riders from getting hurt.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    Very nice, I've been a little underwhelmed with the RabbitHoles.
    What has been the problem with them?
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  16. #16
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You guys make nice rims and I enjoy building with them, riding them, and selling them.

    But...

    ...calling *any* rim you make tubeless ready is, quite frankly, BS. Nothing about the extrusion is made or meant to hold a tire on sans tube. Wrapping it with an overpriced piece of tape does nothing to accomplish this.

    Please stop calling them tubeless ready. In the end, your lawyers are going to advise you to do the same. My intent here is not to slander, but to keep innocent and unsuspecting riders from getting hurt.
    I hear what you're saying and appreciate the fact you're trying to keep us honest, but the fact is that the rim *is* designed differently -- specifically to hold a tire in place sans tube.

    I would like to point out that we do not call all of our rims tubeless- ready. The Dyad, Atlas, Aero, Aerohead, Aeroheat, Deep-V, Fusion, Synergy, NoBS and Chukker are not tubeless ready by our standards, and we wouldn't ever claim they were.

    Now, here's a comparison side-by-side of our first flight A23 (Aussie made, non-tubeless ready) vs. our tubeless ready US made A23. It should be readily apparent that the web and bead are entirely different. The tubeless ready A23 is on the left, the conventional A23 is on the right. Note the shelf on the left A23, designed to keep the tire from "burping" at lower pressure.

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-bead2.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-bead1.jpg

    There's less clearance between the lip and bead for a tighter lock. We get a lot of complaints from consumers trying to mount a conventional tire and tube on our tubeless ready rims when using cloth or plastic rim strips, due to the tighter tolerances of our tubeless ready rims.

    We recently went through and put a disclaimer on all our tubeless ready rims that states we only recommend using a thin tape like our Velotape or Stan's in our tubeless ready rims, just for this reason.

    So in short, the designs are quite a bit different, and when we say "tubeless ready," we are referring to the design of the rim, and not just a tape kit and sealant.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  17. #17
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    baboom!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by seely View Post
    I hear what you're saying and appreciate the fact you're trying to keep us honest, but the fact is that the rim *is* designed differently -- specifically to hold a tire in place sans tube.

    So in short, the designs are quite a bit different, and when we say "tubeless ready," we are referring to the design of the rim, and not just a tape kit and sealant.

    I see the difference you're referring to, and agree that (in theory at least) it does look to be much better.

    The bulk of my experience with your rims, tubeless, is with the P/Blunt 35. I've got several of these on the shelf right now in 26", 650b, and 29". Precisely zero of these have any sort of shelf--they all closely resemble the older, non-tubeless A23 you pictured.

    And there is no way that that rim is safe to run tubeless. Not now, not ever. Without a bead lock it simply can't prevent the bead from moving inward and expelling air. I'll freely admit that I've neither seen nor touched the Dually, so maybe it is different. From the pics you've shared it doesn't appear to be.

    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.
    You've got me cornfused. I had the Blunt SL 29ers and they have the bead shelf and went tubeless like nobody's business. Never burped.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    What has been the problem with them?
    Nothing I'd call problems really. But the RHs cost ~50.00 US MSRP more, weigh ~100g more, arguably harder to set up tubless, and IMO build a weaker wheel. That's quite a bit of compromise for a small low pressure advantage. The tread profile is nearly the same on either rim, the sidewall has more curve on the 35 of course. But I never felt the need to drop pressures to "fatbike" levels, where the wider rim would have been beneficial.

    I've heard good things about the Kris Holm 29'er rims too, also cheaper than the RH. But heavier, stronger, and 36hole.

    So the RHs aren't necessarily bad, but look at building in to wider hubs or hubs with oversized flanges to help out the spoke geometry. I have a set built with an XT centerlock hub with the spokes going to the corresponding side nipple holes. I'm going to rebuild them with all spokes going to the drive side nipple holes. The relatively small flange 100mm hub with dish for the disc mean that the spokes come off the hub nearly vertical. Not really a big deal, but again an extra consideration/compromise for little gain.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    You've got me cornfused. I had the Blunt SL 29ers and they have the bead shelf and went tubeless like nobody's business. Never burped.
    I'm glad it's working for you, truly.

    About 20% of the folks I build 'em for have great luck tubeless. The rest, like myself, eventually give up when the frustration and fiddling, and/or obvious potential for injury, become too much.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'm glad it's working for you, truly.

    About 20% of the folks I build 'em for have great luck tubeless. The rest, like myself, eventually give up when the frustration and fiddling, and/or obvious potential for injury, become too much.
    That's weird... I really don't know I guess. I had WTB TCS tires and I had zero fiddling... just popped into place.

    Isn't this the bead shelf right here? Taken from this 29inches web page...

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-bluntsl2011-011.jpg
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  23. #23
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    I'm very excited to see these! I see another wheelset in the future for my Krampus

  24. #24
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    Does anyone know the recommended max and min tyre widths?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostraveller View Post
    Does anyone know the recommended max and min tyre widths?
    I think we're recommending 45 on up.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I see the difference you're referring to, and agree that (in theory at least) it does look to be much better.

    The bulk of my experience with your rims, tubeless, is with the P/Blunt 35. I've got several of these on the shelf right now in 26", 650b, and 29". Precisely zero of these have any sort of shelf--they all closely resemble the older, non-tubeless A23 you pictured.

    And there is no way that that rim is safe to run tubeless. Not now, not ever. Without a bead lock it simply can't prevent the bead from moving inward and expelling air. I'll freely admit that I've neither seen nor touched the Dually, so maybe it is different. From the pics you've shared it doesn't appear to be.

    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.
    Are you saying that you don't have or never seen the tubeless design rims pictured above? If not, how can you be so flatulent?

  27. #27
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I see the difference you're referring to, and agree that (in theory at least) it does look to be much better.

    The bulk of my experience with your rims, tubeless, is with the P/Blunt 35. I've got several of these on the shelf right now in 26", 650b, and 29". Precisely zero of these have any sort of shelf--they all closely resemble the older, non-tubeless A23 you pictured.

    And there is no way that that rim is safe to run tubeless. Not now, not ever. Without a bead lock it simply can't prevent the bead from moving inward and expelling air. I'll freely admit that I've neither seen nor touched the Dually, so maybe it is different. From the pics you've shared it doesn't appear to be.

    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.
    I agree with Mike. There is more to being a tubeless rim than just having the bead seat shelf, which is part of the standard ISO/ETRO rim spec. The others use the UB (US) rim profile which actually are intended for a tire bead shape not used for modern tires.

    For successful tubeless the bead seat shelf width, inner bead ridge, shelf to sidewall to hook shape, and bead seat diameter are critical.
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  28. #28
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    I cannot find them now - but I swear I saw a set of drilled single wall 700C snow rims on the Velocity web site... I posted a link on the Krampus thread - but it just goes to the Velocity site..
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  29. #29
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    I'm 1 for 2 for running tubeless on P35s. Racing Ralph 2.4s on my hardtail 29er have been bulletproof for an entire season. Big Apple 2.35s were way too loose to even try.

    Love the rims either way...

  30. #30
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    ...so then you're 1 for 1?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumpus View Post
    ...so then you're 1 for 1?
    Hmmm... That's a brain teaser. One pair worked out of two attempts. I think 1 AND 1 would be the score, but 1 OF 2 seems like a legitimate tally system as well.

    Will review after copious caffeine ingestion.

  32. #32
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    What is a good "mid fat" tire and do you know what frames will accommodate this combination other than a fat bike frame?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weinerts View Post
    I cannot find them now - but I swear I saw a set of drilled single wall 700C snow rims on the Velocity web site... I posted a link on the Krampus thread - but it just goes to the Velocity site..
    I remember that. They were white and limited edition. I thought they were maybe a complete pre-built wheelset.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    Are you saying that you don't have or never seen the tubeless design rims pictured above? If not, how can you be so flatulent?
    There's 2 people on the forum you should listen to regarding tyres, one is Shiggy, the other is mikesee.

    You don't have to agree with them, but they are speaking from considerable experience.
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  35. #35
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    What is a good "mid fat" tire and do you know what frames will accommodate this combination other than a fat bike frame?
    Pete -- the new Surly Instigator and the Krampus come to mind.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    Are you saying that you don't have or never seen the tubeless design rims pictured above? If not, how can you be so flatulent?
    How many wheels have you built? I'd like to look at your web site to get an idea of your experience, can you link it here?
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    How many wheels have you built? I'd like to look at your web site to get an idea of your experience, can you link it here?
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.
    Yeah, you might really do well to look around this forum a bit more and get an idea to whom you're referring before you go shooting your mouth off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.
    Polite and direct: the person's opinion you are questioning is a professional wheel builder. He's seen their product, built with their product and ridden their product. New product design has been equated to old products (by manufacturer voice) which he has in his stock room. You do not have to agree with the opinion, but you can't question the credentials which have led to the informed opinion.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    There's 2 people on the forum you should listen to regarding tyres, one is Shiggy, the other is mikesee.

    You don't have to agree with them, but they are speaking from considerable experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by MauricioB View Post
    Yeah, you might really do well to look around this forum a bit more and get an idea to whom you're referring before you go shooting your mouth off.
    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Polite and direct: the person's opinion you are questioning is a professional wheel builder. He's seen their product, built with their product and ridden their product. New product design has been equated to old products (by manufacturer voice) which he has in his stock room. You do not have to agree with the opinion, but you can't question the credentials which have led to the informed opinion.
    Funny thing is I neg repped him with the same flatulence comment he made about Mike and he neg repped me back for irrelevant person insult- LOL
    Last edited by TwoTone; 08-06-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.
    The way I read it was that a very high percentage have difficulty making tubeless work. Fair comment.

    Bearing in mind that many of the old hands here use their fatbikes to go into very remote places, some conservatism regarding equipment is to be expected. It's one thing to have something on the bike fail at a trail park, and a completely different thing if it happens hundreds of miles from anywhere.

    If you just want to play at trail parks, then you don't need to listen to mikesee, but if you want to go far into the hinterland it's very much worth listening to him.

    So far on this forum we have managed to avoid the unpleasantness that blights other forums. It would be decent if you retracted that flatulent remark. (You don't have to agree with him)

    And as MauricioB suggests it's worth checking back posts of anyone you disagree with before posting antagonistic replies. In my opinion there's more depth of experience here in this forum in practical bike technicals than most of the other forums.
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  42. #42
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    I'm excited for this. When will QBP have them? Or should we just call Velocity direct? Slightly less convenient, however.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmucker View Post
    I'm excited for this. When will QBP have them? Or should we just call Velocity direct? Slightly less convenient, however.
    QBP is getting a good chunk of our first shipment, which we're expecting early fall, or *maybe* late summer (fingers crossed)... they'll have them about the same time we do.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    [...] In my opinion there's more depth of experience here in this forum in practical bike technicals than most of the other forums.
    Precisely because we have very little patience for uninformed, antagonistic mambling.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    If you just want to play at trail parks, then you don't need to listen to mikesee, but if you want to go far into the hinterland it's very much worth listening to him.
    If you are going downhill on a rocky trail at 30mph and have a front tubeless failure the consequences are pretty grim.

    My buddy who owns a LBS won't work with any "ghetto" tubeless setups after 2 riders were killed trail riding in his area due to tubeless failures.

    So I would be just as concerned about this issue if you are a day rider on your local trails.
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  46. #46
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    No ghetto tubeless for me. I'll wait for a proper setup.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If you are going downhill on a rocky trail at 30mph and have a front tubeless failure the consequences are pretty grim.

    My buddy who owns a LBS won't work with any "ghetto" tubeless setups after 2 riders were killed trail riding in his area due to tubeless failures.

    So I would be just as concerned about this issue if you are a day rider on your local trails.
    Vik, I know that this thread is not the place...but I would be very interested to hear of some of the mishaps that are credited to tubeless failures.

    Most interested into the how and why of that conclusion. A tall wide tire with a sudden loss of air at speed...can't be good though. Are all disastrous reports occurring with speed?

    One way to find out.

    Care to lead off with a thread on that topic...can't say that there has been one?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sand Rat View Post

    Care to lead off with a thread on that topic...can't say that there has been one?
    I don't know much more than I have posted. I personally haven't had a tubeless failure, but I'm pretty picky about what rims/tires I use and how they are setup.

    My friend who owns the LBS is in a position like Mike C and Shiggy where he sees more product than us regular folks plus and is plugged into the industry and local riding community well. He's given me a few bits of advice over the years and everything he has told me has been 100%.

    I'm not an expert of tubeless tires/rims....the point I wanted to make was just that everyone should be concerned about their tubeless setups and safety - not just the expedition types.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If you are going downhill on a rocky trail at 30mph and have a front tubeless failure the consequences are pretty grim...
    I hadn't thought of that aspect.

    Mainly because I'm never likely to be going downhill at 30mph.

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    Will the Dually be produced in a 36h variety?

  51. #51
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    So there must be a liitle "edge" inside the rim to hold the tire safely? I zoomed the rabbithole drawing in the surly 2014 catalogue - and there are edges - look at the attached picture!

    So the rabbithole is more tubeless safely than the dually?Name:  rabbithole.png
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  52. #52
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    Reps aside, I have two Velocity P35 running tubeless on an off road unicycle, one with a Knard 29, the other with a Hans Dampf Super G.

    At 200# I am no lightweight, and I put waaaaay more sideload and compressive load on my tires than any two wheeler, yet other than the occassional burp, they are steady performers.

    I agree that a good tubeless rim will have a shelf, shelfhook, and lip hook so the tire bead locks into place, BUT even that will not prevent a tire from pushing out of the hook with sufficient side loading.

    You guys are being overly critical, kinda OCD really, maybe you need to cut back on the caffeine??? The worst flats I have had were blow outs from tubes splitting and a tire bead blowing off the rim (bad tire).

    There are no guarantees in life, all you can do is base your decisions on what you observe. I am far more worried about crashing into a tree than I am about a tire blowing off a rim.

  53. #53
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    A little side by side comparison.

    Name:  Dually-profile-web_1.png
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  54. #54
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    Just took delivery of a Dually 29 this week! Just waiting on a WTB Laserdisc Lite hub to show up and I'll have it laced up.

    I'm still up in the air about which tire to try first. I really want to get my hands on the new Dirt Wizard 29x2.7 from Surly, but there is no news when that will be available. I have an older Ardent 2.4 I could throw on.

    Currently I'm using a Niner carbon fork, but may grab a Karate Monkey fork if there is not enough clearance. I'll post pics once the wheel is done.

  55. #55
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    I wouldn't hold your breathe on the DW. It will come when it comes. Could be next March.

    What bike is the dually going on?
    Safe riding,

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  56. #56
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    I have to admit I have a bit of fat bike envy, so I plan to give my SIR9 a chubby front. It's currently set up rigid with an Ardent 2.4 on Arch in the front which I really like, but I thought a wider rim and lower PSI might make it a little more compliant.

  57. #57
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    Any ride reports yet guys? Also how well they set up tubeless with Knards?
    The LPG

  58. #58
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    bead lock and angled spoke holes, aka, WTB TCS would make me warm and fuzzy.
    otherwise the occasional burp , on a front wheel, will cost me a collar bone , especially the rock gardens I ride. sure it's gonna be fine for most, but that does not mean it's correct. maybe ride the dually in rear in rabbit-hole in front , for my fuzzy collarbone feeling ?!

  59. #59
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    When oh when oh when? Got my knards in today, Krampus tomorrow, just waiting on the Duallys so I can get them built up!

  60. #60
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    Lots of talk in this thread about tubeless use with this rim. Would be nice to see some pics from anyone who has gotten hands on these rims. A good shot of the seating area and thougths would be appreciated.

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    I will happily oblige as soon as I get them in my grimy little hands!

  62. #62
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    You guys realized that SnowCat rims are 44mm wide and have been available for like 20 years, right?
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    Would nipple washers help building up P35s ?
    I have a pair, but not sure what size rear tire will work tubeless...a 2.4 would be too big I'm sure. I got some Vee Rubber Speed R 29 x 2.40 I want to use...hoping they'll work tube less and fit inside a 2011 Recon Silver fork.but from what i'm reading...it might be too big up front as well.
    ...any suggestions?
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  64. #64
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    Crossing my fingers these will be offered in the same swanky anodized flavors as the Blunt 35.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by A1an View Post
    Crossing my fingers these will be offered in the same swanky anodized flavors as the Blunt 35.
    That would be cool, but I bet it'll take a few years and a few more 29+ bikes to get to that point.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by A1an View Post
    Crossing my fingers these will be offered in the same swanky anodized flavors as the Blunt 35.
    Right now we're doing Black and Polished primarily, and a few special request Mill finish (no finish). Down the road we're going to look more at color options.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  67. #67
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    I have heard that 45mm and up tires will fit, and I have mainly heard talk about the 29er(622ISO), but it also comes in 26"(559), so would that mean it can use any 26" tire wider than 45mm, including Bud and Lou 4.8". I don't think it would be dangerous, but that is well over the common 2:1 recommendation(120mm tire, 39mm rim[iso width]).

    the inside width is very close to a 47mm trials rim, so up to 4.0" labeled tires should work, as they are commonly used on the trials rims.

    just to put my 2 cents in on tubeless ready rims, noting that I have not that much experience with tubeless bicycle tires, I don't think the dually, or P35, or even the new version rim in the left side of the picture look particularly well suited to running low pressures while tubeless. They may be great at allowing the tire to inflate easily, but don't look very adept at holding it to the sidewall with anything other than air pressure, or a bit of friction from a tight fitting tire bead, which cannot be counted on with bicycle tires.

    I do have some experience with tubeless tires for 4 wheeled vehicles running fairly low pressures(10-20psi), which of course have much higher side loads being vertical when turning, and a bump, lip in the extrusion or protrusion behind the bead seat is critical in keeping the tires from burping at lower pressures. Of course, sometimes bead locks that clamp the tires to the rim with a metal ring and bolts are used, not only to keep the tires from slipping under engine or brake torque, but to keep them from loosing air. That would definitely be too heavy, and negate any tubeless benefits on a bicycle though.

    As far as my experience with bicycle tires and rims, the Surly rim I have(Marge lite) has a nice bead lip, and I may try tubeless on it, But the OnOne rims and the Neon trials rims look like they are better off just sticking to tubes, even though they do have a bead shelf. If I were to get some Duallies, I would probably give it a shot, if the tires fit pretty tight, but I would be leery of running less than 12psi or so, which is about what I'm limited to even with tubes on the OnOne rims.

    But, overall, I really like the Dually, just wish they could have gone a little farther with the tubeless idea and put some bead nips, or whatever you want to call the ridge behind the tire bead on the bead shelf. Even if running higher pressures, it is good to have the security in case you are loosing air somewhere else, then hit a rock or something at a bad angle.

    I really like the profile of the Spank Stiffy rim. It is a little bit heavier of an extrusion to be bulletproof for downhill, etc. With that profile and thinner extrusion in a wider(50mm) width would be a great trail wheel for fat bikes that get hammered hard. I contacted them once sometime late last year or early this year to see if they were interested in maybe doing a 50-65mm for fat bikes, and they said no, but things may change.

  68. #68
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    Not disagreeing with anyone here, more of a question... is anyone planning on running pressures that low, 10-12psi? I don't think of these as much as fat tire rims as 29+ (maybe cause I plan on using these on my Krampus). On my SS with Flows and 2.3" tires, I run around 28psi. I am 6'5" at 220 lbs, and was thinking I could drop to low to mid 20s psi.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatlip11 View Post
    Not disagreeing with anyone here, more of a question... is anyone planning on running pressures that low, 10-12psi? I don't think of these as much as fat tire rims as 29+ (maybe cause I plan on using these on my Krampus). On my SS with Flows and 2.3" tires, I run around 28psi. I am 6'5" at 220 lbs, and was thinking I could drop to low to mid 20s psi.
    I'm 175lbs and usually riding with 40lbs of clothes, gear, food. I'm not great about measuring pressure, but I figure I'm around 20 psi +/-2 psi. I'd be pinch flatting every 5mins at 10 psi.
    Safe riding,

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  70. #70
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    I'm usually around 230-240lbs plus riding gear and run my rear at 17-18 and front at 14-15 with Rabbit Holes. I suspect I might need a little more if I switch to the Dually's. I'm also running a suspension fork.
    The LPG

  71. #71
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    Thanks y'all, that helps a bit. As you can see by my post count, I am no pro at this!

  72. #72
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I have heard that 45mm and up tires will fit, and I have mainly heard talk about the 29er(622ISO), but it also comes in 26"(559), so would that mean it can use any 26" tire wider than 45mm, including Bud and Lou 4.8". I don't think it would be dangerous, but that is well over the common 2:1 recommendation(120mm tire, 39mm rim[iso width]).
    It will fit, but IME I would never ride a 45mm tire on a 50mm rim. 52-54mm (~2.2") is as narrow as I would go.

    Using a tire about the same width as the rim can result in the tire feeling harsh and dead. Poor ride. Poor handling. Also increases the chance of pinch flats and sidewall damage.

    I have tried the Big Fat Larry 4.5 on a 45mm rim, too. Had it peel off twice. Once on the trail. Once in the shop, just sitting there overnight.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    It will fit, but IME I would never ride a 45mm tire on a 50mm rim. 52-54mm (~2.2") is as narrow as I would go.

    Using a tire about the same width as the rim can result in the tire feeling harsh and dead. Poor ride. Poor handling. Also increases the chance of pinch flats and sidewall damage.

    I have tried the Big Fat Larry 4.5 on a 45mm rim, too. Had it peel off twice. Once on the trail. Once in the shop, just sitting there overnight.
    the BFLs aren't much wider than a clown shoe are they? Isn't it pretty close to 1:1?
    and, aren't some people putting 3.8-4.0 tires on 100mm rims. that would be a tire narrower than the rim. I wouldn't do it.

    I have heard people on here argue that using a wider rim, close to or even wider than the tire will make it ride better and less likely to pinch flat due to greater air volume. I disagreed.

  74. #74
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    I find the Larry/Endos I've got on my Pugs on 82mm rims don't have a great shape for dirt riding. They were better on 65mm rims. I suspect the sand flotation would be better though, but I haven't had the opportunity to verify that yet.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  75. #75
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    I had an old trashed 26" wheel (24mm I think) I mounted my beat up old huskerduda on it for laughs - the profile looks awesome, makes me wanna ride on it.
    Should take a pic or it's just make believe right! Puts the knardsONrabbits to shame.

  76. #76
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    anybody riding them ? reviews ?
    be nice to get some tire measurements, to figure out frame clearance ?

  77. #77
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    Well I finally got my wheel built and my order for some big rubber in. It's the Velocity Dually 29" with a WTB Laserdisc Lite QR9. I need to weigh it, but it doesn't feel heavy.

    First I tried an Ardent 2.4 on the Dually because I was still waiting on my Knard order. Only took one ride with this setup, but I liked it. I didn't get any measurements, but to my eye the Dually didn't cause the Ardent casing width to be much wider. The profile definitely flattened out though and the traction was great. The bead was incredibly tight on this rim and very difficult to unmount.

    Then I got the Knard and immediately threw that on. Wow! The difference in volume was huge and the Ardent is a big tire. I measured the casing at 71.8mm and the tread at 74.9. This left about 3-4mm of clearance on the sides of the tire in my Niner carbon fork.

    Unfortunately we have been under monsoon conditions in the DC area for the past several days, so I have not had a proper ride on it. I did take it up to the local park that has just a little bit of dirt back in the woods and rode it around. It was setup at 15psi with a tube and I was having a ball monster-trucking over the roots and small stuff. I can't wait to actually take a real ride on this thing!

    Mandatory pictures attached.

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0873.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0877.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0879.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0881.jpg

  78. #78
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    thanks for the post.
    notes:
    went to local bike shop, with brand new krampus , brought my bike
    an AM 29er Norco, and tried to jam it in,...the rear;
    it ain't not spinning, measured 84mm, maybe it was stretched out ;
    was so bummed, did not try the front.
    your carbon fork, be short lived, with tire rub...
    waiting for some Dirt Wizard news.
    my guess pi multipled by my thumb, on existing tire, existing rims
    new inner - old inner / 3.14 /2
    39 -23 ; 16 / 3.14 ; 5.09 / 2 = 2.54mm+ on each side wider (tire)
    tall, 3.14/2 * 2.54 = 3.98mm taller

    be nice to see some measurements , to see if the formula is any good for real live.
    since I got plenty of tires , who did not measure up to the advertised width.
    hop the wide rim will fix that.

  79. #79
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    Interesting front brake cable routing. Has the tire ever rubbed it?
    The LPG

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancelot View Post
    Interesting front brake cable routing. Has the tire ever rubbed it?
    Seems a bit sketchy to me too but then i'm anal about that sorta stuff.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  81. #81
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    Fortunately the tire does not rub the brake cable or the inside of the fork. I wouldn't keep this setup otherwise. There is plenty of clearance around it. The brake cable does rub the inside of the fork a little, but I have some of those clear decals protecting the fork and the frame where the cable comes into contact.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post

    Mandatory pictures attached.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looks awesome! This is what I was hoping to run (Dually + Knard on Niner fork). Forgive my ignorance, but can I purchase a complete wheel from anywhere yet?

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post
    Fortunately the tire does not rub the brake cable or the inside of the fork. I wouldn't keep this setup otherwise. There is plenty of clearance around it.
    Per the static pics I agree there is plenty of clearance however when out and about bouncing up n down trails the cable will be subject to movement in a downward direction (only)and in the path of a rotating tire which has the potential for brake line failure yes?
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  84. #84
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    That tire is gonna rub for sure. Looks good though. Wish I could find a set of Duallys in stock somewhere.
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  85. #85
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    I have a few sets of Dually's in stock in 29", black and silver, 32h.

    Only thing that's kept me from lacing a set for myself are, um, these.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I have a few sets of Dually's in stock in 29", black and silver, 32h.

    Only thing that's kept me from lacing a set for myself are, um, these.
    Mikesee, you questioned the tubeless interface of the Dually at one point. Now that you have them in your hands, are these rim different that other Velocity models?

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    Mikesee, you questioned the tubeless interface of the Dually at one point. Now that you have them in your hands, are these rim different that other Velocity models?
    You can see in pic in the original post that there is no lip to keep the bead from sliding inward on this extrusion. So while I don't doubt that they can be made to bead-up and hold air tubeless, I'd never, ever recommend riding them that way. I consider it unsafe, especially given the low PSI's that (most, not all) will be running their Knards on these rims.

    Short answer = no, not really different.

  88. #88
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    Your guys focus on the brake routing got me concerned, so I rerouted outside the fork.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You can see in pic in the original post that there is no lip to keep the bead from sliding inward on this extrusion. So while I don't doubt that they can be made to bead-up and hold air tubeless, I'd never, ever recommend riding them that way. I consider it unsafe, especially given the low PSI's that (most, not all) will be running their Knards on these rims.

    Short answer = no, not really different.
    Bummer! Guess I'll stay with my Rabbit Holes for awhile.
    The LPG

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post
    Your guys focus on the brake routing got me concerned, so I rerouted outside the fork.
    I'ts rare i make any sort of sense but if I do it's because i stay @ a Holiday Inn Express when on vaca.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post
    Your guys focus on the brake routing got me concerned, so I rerouted outside the fork.
    I just saw that, concerned!

  92. #92
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    I built these up last night. Polished silver Duallys, White Industries hubs, Wheelsmith DB14 spokes and alloy nipples - just over 2300g (rims were 680g and 682g, ERD 607mm measuring to top of nipple), all made in the USA.

    'Merica!





    They were kind of a PITA to work with, there were a lot of chips floating around inside the rims that had to be shaken out and lots of polishing compound still on/in them. Inside the tire bed and caked inside spoke holes. They built up nice though, they feel really light for such a wide rim.

  93. #93
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    Sweet!

    I recall my P35s had a massivly annoying amount shavings trapped inside.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    I built these up last night. Polished silver Duallys, White Industries hubs, Wheelsmith DB14 spokes and alloy nipples - just over 2300g (rims were 680g and 682g, ERD 607mm measuring to top of nipple), all made in the USA.

    'Merica!





    They were kind of a PITA to work with, there were a lot of chips floating around inside the rims that had to be shaken out and lots of polishing compound still on/in them. Inside the tire bed and caked inside spoke holes. They built up nice though, they feel really light for such a wide rim.
    Killer build, & thanks for the feedback -- the polishing compound is a bit of an annoyance. Our polisher cleans the rims but it seems there's always a bit trapped on the inside. We'll look more into what we can do about that and the 'swarth' that gets trapped in the drilling process.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

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    Enjoy the shiny now boys, cause they are getting dirty this weekend! They look amazing Dustin, can't wait to get them on my Krampus. Will post pics when mounted.

  96. #96
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    Are they clear coated after polishing?
    The LPG

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    Well... that was not pleasurable! They ain't shiny no more as they are covered in Orange Seal.
    Got the wheels this morning and decided to mount the Knards and pump 'em up. I did my usual routine of soaping and then pumping the tires up without sealant first to get them seated.
    Nope, they were going to need a compressor instead of my floor pump. Took them to my LBS and used their compressor. Lots of sealant ended up on the floor. Now I am not sure if they have enough sealant in them after it was shooting out the sides.
    Problem is, Orange Seal recommends 3-4 oz per tire for a 29er, with Stan's I have always used 2 oz, but since this is a bigger tire I went ahead and put 4 in each... end of bottle. LBS does not carry Oranges Seal, not sure if I can mix Stan's with them or not.
    Left them at the LBS with my Krampus build on their sides and asked the mechanics to flip them occasionally, hopefully when I go in tomorrow to pick up my bike they will have sealed.
    The wheels look great, the seam in the rim doesn't look fantastic but everything else is good.
    Dustin at Southern Wheelworks did an awesome job on the build and answered all 4,000 of my questions without a complaint. Great customer service for sure.
    Will update later with photos.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post

    I'm surprised you didn't build your wheels so the valve was in the large spoke gap. Was this on purpose? Reasoning?

    If you're not sure what I mean, here is a picture from Sheldon Brown's site.


  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    I'm surprised you didn't build your wheels so the valve was in the large spoke gap. Was this on purpose? Reasoning?

    If you're not sure what I mean, here is a picture from Sheldon Brown's site.

    It's just the angle of the picture. Valves are always between two parallel spokes! Hers another picture, the duallys and two other wheels I laced up that same night:


  100. #100
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    Wow, that picture fooled me

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