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  1. #1
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    Thought you guys might be interested in the latest rim offering here at Velocity, the 45mm wide double-walled Dually. It's being offered in 26 & 29" to start, preorders start today.

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-dually-final.jpg

    There's some more info here: Velocity USA: Introducing the "mid fat" 45mm Dually rim

    And here: Velocity Wheels
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  2. #2
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    Tubeless ready, it says.

  3. #3
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    Will you have wide enough tape/conversion kits for these rims to go tubeless?
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  4. #4
    All fat, all the time.
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    MMMMMMMM...spokeless.....

  5. #5
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    Might be a pretty nice option for guys wanting to run suspension on their Kampi.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    MMMMMMMM...spokeless.....
    They use magnets!

  7. #7
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    But how much will they weigh after we drill 'em!

  8. #8
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    These look very interesting.
    Though i wonder if all numbers are correct, this one is doublewalled and claiming 675gr for 29" inch version (600gr for the 26") and the singlewalled Rabbit hole weights 699gr.

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    No spoke holes are shown in the picture: will it be drilled with offset spoke holes (like a Surly Rabbit Hole), or is it center-drilled?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vighor View Post
    These look very interesting.
    Though i wonder if all numbers are correct, this one is doublewalled and claiming 675gr for 29" inch version (600gr for the 26") and the singlewalled Rabbit hole weights 699gr.
    The figures are correct based on the weight of the Dually extrusions we have in-hand. Foot by foot, the 45mm Dually weighs about the same as our Cliffhanger extrusion, so we're pretty confident on the conservative sub-700g figure.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnroyal View Post
    No spoke holes are shown in the picture: will it be drilled with offset spoke holes (like a Surly Rabbit Hole), or is it center-drilled?
    Due to the shape of the rim, it's going to be center drilled to keep the spokes in the spoke bed.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  12. #12
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    Will you have wide enough tape/conversion kits for these rims to go tubeless?
    Since the rim is going to be center drilled, our 24mm tape and conversion kit should work just fine on the rim, just as with the Blunt 35.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  13. #13
    Harrumph
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    Very nice, I've been a little underwhelmed with the RabbitHoles. And very impressed with the Blunt 35s. The wider rim's only advantage being tire performance at really low pressures.

    The Dually looks to take that single advantage away for me.

    I'm also not a fan of the offset spoke holes on 700c rims. If used with lower flange/narrow flange-to-flange hubs, the dished side can have a very low bracing angle.
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  14. #14
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    You guys make nice rims and I enjoy building with them, riding them, and selling them.

    But...

    ...calling *any* rim you make tubeless ready is, quite frankly, BS. Nothing about the extrusion is made or meant to hold a tire on sans tube. Wrapping it with an overpriced piece of tape does nothing to accomplish this.

    Please stop calling them tubeless ready. In the end, your lawyers are going to advise you to do the same. My intent here is not to slander, but to keep innocent and unsuspecting riders from getting hurt.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-reg View Post
    Very nice, I've been a little underwhelmed with the RabbitHoles.
    What has been the problem with them?
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  16. #16
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You guys make nice rims and I enjoy building with them, riding them, and selling them.

    But...

    ...calling *any* rim you make tubeless ready is, quite frankly, BS. Nothing about the extrusion is made or meant to hold a tire on sans tube. Wrapping it with an overpriced piece of tape does nothing to accomplish this.

    Please stop calling them tubeless ready. In the end, your lawyers are going to advise you to do the same. My intent here is not to slander, but to keep innocent and unsuspecting riders from getting hurt.
    I hear what you're saying and appreciate the fact you're trying to keep us honest, but the fact is that the rim *is* designed differently -- specifically to hold a tire in place sans tube.

    I would like to point out that we do not call all of our rims tubeless- ready. The Dyad, Atlas, Aero, Aerohead, Aeroheat, Deep-V, Fusion, Synergy, NoBS and Chukker are not tubeless ready by our standards, and we wouldn't ever claim they were.

    Now, here's a comparison side-by-side of our first flight A23 (Aussie made, non-tubeless ready) vs. our tubeless ready US made A23. It should be readily apparent that the web and bead are entirely different. The tubeless ready A23 is on the left, the conventional A23 is on the right. Note the shelf on the left A23, designed to keep the tire from "burping" at lower pressure.

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-bead2.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-bead1.jpg

    There's less clearance between the lip and bead for a tighter lock. We get a lot of complaints from consumers trying to mount a conventional tire and tube on our tubeless ready rims when using cloth or plastic rim strips, due to the tighter tolerances of our tubeless ready rims.

    We recently went through and put a disclaimer on all our tubeless ready rims that states we only recommend using a thin tape like our Velotape or Stan's in our tubeless ready rims, just for this reason.

    So in short, the designs are quite a bit different, and when we say "tubeless ready," we are referring to the design of the rim, and not just a tape kit and sealant.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  17. #17
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    baboom!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by seely View Post
    I hear what you're saying and appreciate the fact you're trying to keep us honest, but the fact is that the rim *is* designed differently -- specifically to hold a tire in place sans tube.

    So in short, the designs are quite a bit different, and when we say "tubeless ready," we are referring to the design of the rim, and not just a tape kit and sealant.

    I see the difference you're referring to, and agree that (in theory at least) it does look to be much better.

    The bulk of my experience with your rims, tubeless, is with the P/Blunt 35. I've got several of these on the shelf right now in 26", 650b, and 29". Precisely zero of these have any sort of shelf--they all closely resemble the older, non-tubeless A23 you pictured.

    And there is no way that that rim is safe to run tubeless. Not now, not ever. Without a bead lock it simply can't prevent the bead from moving inward and expelling air. I'll freely admit that I've neither seen nor touched the Dually, so maybe it is different. From the pics you've shared it doesn't appear to be.

    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.
    You've got me cornfused. I had the Blunt SL 29ers and they have the bead shelf and went tubeless like nobody's business. Never burped.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    What has been the problem with them?
    Nothing I'd call problems really. But the RHs cost ~50.00 US MSRP more, weigh ~100g more, arguably harder to set up tubless, and IMO build a weaker wheel. That's quite a bit of compromise for a small low pressure advantage. The tread profile is nearly the same on either rim, the sidewall has more curve on the 35 of course. But I never felt the need to drop pressures to "fatbike" levels, where the wider rim would have been beneficial.

    I've heard good things about the Kris Holm 29'er rims too, also cheaper than the RH. But heavier, stronger, and 36hole.

    So the RHs aren't necessarily bad, but look at building in to wider hubs or hubs with oversized flanges to help out the spoke geometry. I have a set built with an XT centerlock hub with the spokes going to the corresponding side nipple holes. I'm going to rebuild them with all spokes going to the drive side nipple holes. The relatively small flange 100mm hub with dish for the disc mean that the spokes come off the hub nearly vertical. Not really a big deal, but again an extra consideration/compromise for little gain.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    You've got me cornfused. I had the Blunt SL 29ers and they have the bead shelf and went tubeless like nobody's business. Never burped.
    I'm glad it's working for you, truly.

    About 20% of the folks I build 'em for have great luck tubeless. The rest, like myself, eventually give up when the frustration and fiddling, and/or obvious potential for injury, become too much.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'm glad it's working for you, truly.

    About 20% of the folks I build 'em for have great luck tubeless. The rest, like myself, eventually give up when the frustration and fiddling, and/or obvious potential for injury, become too much.
    That's weird... I really don't know I guess. I had WTB TCS tires and I had zero fiddling... just popped into place.

    Isn't this the bead shelf right here? Taken from this 29inches web page...

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-bluntsl2011-011.jpg
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  23. #23
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    I'm very excited to see these! I see another wheelset in the future for my Krampus

  24. #24
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    Does anyone know the recommended max and min tyre widths?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostraveller View Post
    Does anyone know the recommended max and min tyre widths?
    I think we're recommending 45 on up.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I see the difference you're referring to, and agree that (in theory at least) it does look to be much better.

    The bulk of my experience with your rims, tubeless, is with the P/Blunt 35. I've got several of these on the shelf right now in 26", 650b, and 29". Precisely zero of these have any sort of shelf--they all closely resemble the older, non-tubeless A23 you pictured.

    And there is no way that that rim is safe to run tubeless. Not now, not ever. Without a bead lock it simply can't prevent the bead from moving inward and expelling air. I'll freely admit that I've neither seen nor touched the Dually, so maybe it is different. From the pics you've shared it doesn't appear to be.

    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.
    Are you saying that you don't have or never seen the tubeless design rims pictured above? If not, how can you be so flatulent?

  27. #27
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I see the difference you're referring to, and agree that (in theory at least) it does look to be much better.

    The bulk of my experience with your rims, tubeless, is with the P/Blunt 35. I've got several of these on the shelf right now in 26", 650b, and 29". Precisely zero of these have any sort of shelf--they all closely resemble the older, non-tubeless A23 you pictured.

    And there is no way that that rim is safe to run tubeless. Not now, not ever. Without a bead lock it simply can't prevent the bead from moving inward and expelling air. I'll freely admit that I've neither seen nor touched the Dually, so maybe it is different. From the pics you've shared it doesn't appear to be.

    Until I see rims coming through the normal distribution channels with a bead shelf, I stand by what I've said--your tubeless rims are not safe for tubeless.
    I agree with Mike. There is more to being a tubeless rim than just having the bead seat shelf, which is part of the standard ISO/ETRO rim spec. The others use the UB (US) rim profile which actually are intended for a tire bead shape not used for modern tires.

    For successful tubeless the bead seat shelf width, inner bead ridge, shelf to sidewall to hook shape, and bead seat diameter are critical.
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  28. #28
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    I cannot find them now - but I swear I saw a set of drilled single wall 700C snow rims on the Velocity web site... I posted a link on the Krampus thread - but it just goes to the Velocity site..
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  29. #29
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    I'm 1 for 2 for running tubeless on P35s. Racing Ralph 2.4s on my hardtail 29er have been bulletproof for an entire season. Big Apple 2.35s were way too loose to even try.

    Love the rims either way...

  30. #30
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    ...so then you're 1 for 1?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by trumpus View Post
    ...so then you're 1 for 1?
    Hmmm... That's a brain teaser. One pair worked out of two attempts. I think 1 AND 1 would be the score, but 1 OF 2 seems like a legitimate tally system as well.

    Will review after copious caffeine ingestion.

  32. #32
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    What is a good "mid fat" tire and do you know what frames will accommodate this combination other than a fat bike frame?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weinerts View Post
    I cannot find them now - but I swear I saw a set of drilled single wall 700C snow rims on the Velocity web site... I posted a link on the Krampus thread - but it just goes to the Velocity site..
    I remember that. They were white and limited edition. I thought they were maybe a complete pre-built wheelset.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    Are you saying that you don't have or never seen the tubeless design rims pictured above? If not, how can you be so flatulent?
    There's 2 people on the forum you should listen to regarding tyres, one is Shiggy, the other is mikesee.

    You don't have to agree with them, but they are speaking from considerable experience.
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  35. #35
    beer *****es n' bikes
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    What is a good "mid fat" tire and do you know what frames will accommodate this combination other than a fat bike frame?
    Pete -- the new Surly Instigator and the Krampus come to mind.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    Are you saying that you don't have or never seen the tubeless design rims pictured above? If not, how can you be so flatulent?
    How many wheels have you built? I'd like to look at your web site to get an idea of your experience, can you link it here?
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    How many wheels have you built? I'd like to look at your web site to get an idea of your experience, can you link it here?
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.
    Yeah, you might really do well to look around this forum a bit more and get an idea to whom you're referring before you go shooting your mouth off.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.
    Polite and direct: the person's opinion you are questioning is a professional wheel builder. He's seen their product, built with their product and ridden their product. New product design has been equated to old products (by manufacturer voice) which he has in his stock room. You do not have to agree with the opinion, but you can't question the credentials which have led to the informed opinion.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    There's 2 people on the forum you should listen to regarding tyres, one is Shiggy, the other is mikesee.

    You don't have to agree with them, but they are speaking from considerable experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by MauricioB View Post
    Yeah, you might really do well to look around this forum a bit more and get an idea to whom you're referring before you go shooting your mouth off.
    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    Polite and direct: the person's opinion you are questioning is a professional wheel builder. He's seen their product, built with their product and ridden their product. New product design has been equated to old products (by manufacturer voice) which he has in his stock room. You do not have to agree with the opinion, but you can't question the credentials which have led to the informed opinion.
    Funny thing is I neg repped him with the same flatulence comment he made about Mike and he neg repped me back for irrelevant person insult- LOL
    Last edited by TwoTone; 08-06-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
    I don't have a website. Still, from what I can gather, even from re-reading the post, the guy hasn't even tried the tubeless design rims and makes the jump to call all Velocity rims unsafe for tubeless. Maybe he doesn't think they will work well, maybe they are not readily available - but to call them unsafe never having tried them seems......flatulent.
    The way I read it was that a very high percentage have difficulty making tubeless work. Fair comment.

    Bearing in mind that many of the old hands here use their fatbikes to go into very remote places, some conservatism regarding equipment is to be expected. It's one thing to have something on the bike fail at a trail park, and a completely different thing if it happens hundreds of miles from anywhere.

    If you just want to play at trail parks, then you don't need to listen to mikesee, but if you want to go far into the hinterland it's very much worth listening to him.

    So far on this forum we have managed to avoid the unpleasantness that blights other forums. It would be decent if you retracted that flatulent remark. (You don't have to agree with him)

    And as MauricioB suggests it's worth checking back posts of anyone you disagree with before posting antagonistic replies. In my opinion there's more depth of experience here in this forum in practical bike technicals than most of the other forums.
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  42. #42
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    I'm excited for this. When will QBP have them? Or should we just call Velocity direct? Slightly less convenient, however.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmucker View Post
    I'm excited for this. When will QBP have them? Or should we just call Velocity direct? Slightly less convenient, however.
    QBP is getting a good chunk of our first shipment, which we're expecting early fall, or *maybe* late summer (fingers crossed)... they'll have them about the same time we do.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    [...] In my opinion there's more depth of experience here in this forum in practical bike technicals than most of the other forums.
    Precisely because we have very little patience for uninformed, antagonistic mambling.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    If you just want to play at trail parks, then you don't need to listen to mikesee, but if you want to go far into the hinterland it's very much worth listening to him.
    If you are going downhill on a rocky trail at 30mph and have a front tubeless failure the consequences are pretty grim.

    My buddy who owns a LBS won't work with any "ghetto" tubeless setups after 2 riders were killed trail riding in his area due to tubeless failures.

    So I would be just as concerned about this issue if you are a day rider on your local trails.
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  46. #46
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    No ghetto tubeless for me. I'll wait for a proper setup.
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If you are going downhill on a rocky trail at 30mph and have a front tubeless failure the consequences are pretty grim.

    My buddy who owns a LBS won't work with any "ghetto" tubeless setups after 2 riders were killed trail riding in his area due to tubeless failures.

    So I would be just as concerned about this issue if you are a day rider on your local trails.
    Vik, I know that this thread is not the place...but I would be very interested to hear of some of the mishaps that are credited to tubeless failures.

    Most interested into the how and why of that conclusion. A tall wide tire with a sudden loss of air at speed...can't be good though. Are all disastrous reports occurring with speed?

    One way to find out.

    Care to lead off with a thread on that topic...can't say that there has been one?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sand Rat View Post

    Care to lead off with a thread on that topic...can't say that there has been one?
    I don't know much more than I have posted. I personally haven't had a tubeless failure, but I'm pretty picky about what rims/tires I use and how they are setup.

    My friend who owns the LBS is in a position like Mike C and Shiggy where he sees more product than us regular folks plus and is plugged into the industry and local riding community well. He's given me a few bits of advice over the years and everything he has told me has been 100%.

    I'm not an expert of tubeless tires/rims....the point I wanted to make was just that everyone should be concerned about their tubeless setups and safety - not just the expedition types.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If you are going downhill on a rocky trail at 30mph and have a front tubeless failure the consequences are pretty grim...
    I hadn't thought of that aspect.

    Mainly because I'm never likely to be going downhill at 30mph.

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  50. #50
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    Will the Dually be produced in a 36h variety?

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