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  1. #51
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    So there must be a liitle "edge" inside the rim to hold the tire safely? I zoomed the rabbithole drawing in the surly 2014 catalogue - and there are edges - look at the attached picture!

    So the rabbithole is more tubeless safely than the dually?Name:  rabbithole.png
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  2. #52
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    Reps aside, I have two Velocity P35 running tubeless on an off road unicycle, one with a Knard 29, the other with a Hans Dampf Super G.

    At 200# I am no lightweight, and I put waaaaay more sideload and compressive load on my tires than any two wheeler, yet other than the occassional burp, they are steady performers.

    I agree that a good tubeless rim will have a shelf, shelfhook, and lip hook so the tire bead locks into place, BUT even that will not prevent a tire from pushing out of the hook with sufficient side loading.

    You guys are being overly critical, kinda OCD really, maybe you need to cut back on the caffeine??? The worst flats I have had were blow outs from tubes splitting and a tire bead blowing off the rim (bad tire).

    There are no guarantees in life, all you can do is base your decisions on what you observe. I am far more worried about crashing into a tree than I am about a tire blowing off a rim.

  3. #53
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    A little side by side comparison.

    Name:  Dually-profile-web_1.png
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  4. #54
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    Just took delivery of a Dually 29 this week! Just waiting on a WTB Laserdisc Lite hub to show up and I'll have it laced up.

    I'm still up in the air about which tire to try first. I really want to get my hands on the new Dirt Wizard 29x2.7 from Surly, but there is no news when that will be available. I have an older Ardent 2.4 I could throw on.

    Currently I'm using a Niner carbon fork, but may grab a Karate Monkey fork if there is not enough clearance. I'll post pics once the wheel is done.

  5. #55
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    I wouldn't hold your breathe on the DW. It will come when it comes. Could be next March.

    What bike is the dually going on?
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  6. #56
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    I have to admit I have a bit of fat bike envy, so I plan to give my SIR9 a chubby front. It's currently set up rigid with an Ardent 2.4 on Arch in the front which I really like, but I thought a wider rim and lower PSI might make it a little more compliant.

  7. #57
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    Any ride reports yet guys? Also how well they set up tubeless with Knards?
    The LPG

  8. #58
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    bead lock and angled spoke holes, aka, WTB TCS would make me warm and fuzzy.
    otherwise the occasional burp , on a front wheel, will cost me a collar bone , especially the rock gardens I ride. sure it's gonna be fine for most, but that does not mean it's correct. maybe ride the dually in rear in rabbit-hole in front , for my fuzzy collarbone feeling ?!

  9. #59
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    When oh when oh when? Got my knards in today, Krampus tomorrow, just waiting on the Duallys so I can get them built up!

  10. #60
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    Lots of talk in this thread about tubeless use with this rim. Would be nice to see some pics from anyone who has gotten hands on these rims. A good shot of the seating area and thougths would be appreciated.

  11. #61
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    I will happily oblige as soon as I get them in my grimy little hands!

  12. #62
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    You guys realized that SnowCat rims are 44mm wide and have been available for like 20 years, right?
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  13. #63
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    Would nipple washers help building up P35s ?
    I have a pair, but not sure what size rear tire will work tubeless...a 2.4 would be too big I'm sure. I got some Vee Rubber Speed R 29 x 2.40 I want to use...hoping they'll work tube less and fit inside a 2011 Recon Silver fork.but from what i'm reading...it might be too big up front as well.
    ...any suggestions?
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  14. #64
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    Crossing my fingers these will be offered in the same swanky anodized flavors as the Blunt 35.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by A1an View Post
    Crossing my fingers these will be offered in the same swanky anodized flavors as the Blunt 35.
    That would be cool, but I bet it'll take a few years and a few more 29+ bikes to get to that point.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by A1an View Post
    Crossing my fingers these will be offered in the same swanky anodized flavors as the Blunt 35.
    Right now we're doing Black and Polished primarily, and a few special request Mill finish (no finish). Down the road we're going to look more at color options.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  17. #67
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    I have heard that 45mm and up tires will fit, and I have mainly heard talk about the 29er(622ISO), but it also comes in 26"(559), so would that mean it can use any 26" tire wider than 45mm, including Bud and Lou 4.8". I don't think it would be dangerous, but that is well over the common 2:1 recommendation(120mm tire, 39mm rim[iso width]).

    the inside width is very close to a 47mm trials rim, so up to 4.0" labeled tires should work, as they are commonly used on the trials rims.

    just to put my 2 cents in on tubeless ready rims, noting that I have not that much experience with tubeless bicycle tires, I don't think the dually, or P35, or even the new version rim in the left side of the picture look particularly well suited to running low pressures while tubeless. They may be great at allowing the tire to inflate easily, but don't look very adept at holding it to the sidewall with anything other than air pressure, or a bit of friction from a tight fitting tire bead, which cannot be counted on with bicycle tires.

    I do have some experience with tubeless tires for 4 wheeled vehicles running fairly low pressures(10-20psi), which of course have much higher side loads being vertical when turning, and a bump, lip in the extrusion or protrusion behind the bead seat is critical in keeping the tires from burping at lower pressures. Of course, sometimes bead locks that clamp the tires to the rim with a metal ring and bolts are used, not only to keep the tires from slipping under engine or brake torque, but to keep them from loosing air. That would definitely be too heavy, and negate any tubeless benefits on a bicycle though.

    As far as my experience with bicycle tires and rims, the Surly rim I have(Marge lite) has a nice bead lip, and I may try tubeless on it, But the OnOne rims and the Neon trials rims look like they are better off just sticking to tubes, even though they do have a bead shelf. If I were to get some Duallies, I would probably give it a shot, if the tires fit pretty tight, but I would be leery of running less than 12psi or so, which is about what I'm limited to even with tubes on the OnOne rims.

    But, overall, I really like the Dually, just wish they could have gone a little farther with the tubeless idea and put some bead nips, or whatever you want to call the ridge behind the tire bead on the bead shelf. Even if running higher pressures, it is good to have the security in case you are loosing air somewhere else, then hit a rock or something at a bad angle.

    I really like the profile of the Spank Stiffy rim. It is a little bit heavier of an extrusion to be bulletproof for downhill, etc. With that profile and thinner extrusion in a wider(50mm) width would be a great trail wheel for fat bikes that get hammered hard. I contacted them once sometime late last year or early this year to see if they were interested in maybe doing a 50-65mm for fat bikes, and they said no, but things may change.

  18. #68
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    Not disagreeing with anyone here, more of a question... is anyone planning on running pressures that low, 10-12psi? I don't think of these as much as fat tire rims as 29+ (maybe cause I plan on using these on my Krampus). On my SS with Flows and 2.3" tires, I run around 28psi. I am 6'5" at 220 lbs, and was thinking I could drop to low to mid 20s psi.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatlip11 View Post
    Not disagreeing with anyone here, more of a question... is anyone planning on running pressures that low, 10-12psi? I don't think of these as much as fat tire rims as 29+ (maybe cause I plan on using these on my Krampus). On my SS with Flows and 2.3" tires, I run around 28psi. I am 6'5" at 220 lbs, and was thinking I could drop to low to mid 20s psi.
    I'm 175lbs and usually riding with 40lbs of clothes, gear, food. I'm not great about measuring pressure, but I figure I'm around 20 psi +/-2 psi. I'd be pinch flatting every 5mins at 10 psi.
    Safe riding,

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  20. #70
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    I'm usually around 230-240lbs plus riding gear and run my rear at 17-18 and front at 14-15 with Rabbit Holes. I suspect I might need a little more if I switch to the Dually's. I'm also running a suspension fork.
    The LPG

  21. #71
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    Thanks y'all, that helps a bit. As you can see by my post count, I am no pro at this!

  22. #72
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    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually

    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I have heard that 45mm and up tires will fit, and I have mainly heard talk about the 29er(622ISO), but it also comes in 26"(559), so would that mean it can use any 26" tire wider than 45mm, including Bud and Lou 4.8". I don't think it would be dangerous, but that is well over the common 2:1 recommendation(120mm tire, 39mm rim[iso width]).
    It will fit, but IME I would never ride a 45mm tire on a 50mm rim. 52-54mm (~2.2") is as narrow as I would go.

    Using a tire about the same width as the rim can result in the tire feeling harsh and dead. Poor ride. Poor handling. Also increases the chance of pinch flats and sidewall damage.

    I have tried the Big Fat Larry 4.5 on a 45mm rim, too. Had it peel off twice. Once on the trail. Once in the shop, just sitting there overnight.
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    It will fit, but IME I would never ride a 45mm tire on a 50mm rim. 52-54mm (~2.2") is as narrow as I would go.

    Using a tire about the same width as the rim can result in the tire feeling harsh and dead. Poor ride. Poor handling. Also increases the chance of pinch flats and sidewall damage.

    I have tried the Big Fat Larry 4.5 on a 45mm rim, too. Had it peel off twice. Once on the trail. Once in the shop, just sitting there overnight.
    the BFLs aren't much wider than a clown shoe are they? Isn't it pretty close to 1:1?
    and, aren't some people putting 3.8-4.0 tires on 100mm rims. that would be a tire narrower than the rim. I wouldn't do it.

    I have heard people on here argue that using a wider rim, close to or even wider than the tire will make it ride better and less likely to pinch flat due to greater air volume. I disagreed.

  24. #74
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    I find the Larry/Endos I've got on my Pugs on 82mm rims don't have a great shape for dirt riding. They were better on 65mm rims. I suspect the sand flotation would be better though, but I haven't had the opportunity to verify that yet.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  25. #75
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    I had an old trashed 26" wheel (24mm I think) I mounted my beat up old huskerduda on it for laughs - the profile looks awesome, makes me wanna ride on it.
    Should take a pic or it's just make believe right! Puts the knardsONrabbits to shame.

  26. #76
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    anybody riding them ? reviews ?
    be nice to get some tire measurements, to figure out frame clearance ?

  27. #77
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    Well I finally got my wheel built and my order for some big rubber in. It's the Velocity Dually 29" with a WTB Laserdisc Lite QR9. I need to weigh it, but it doesn't feel heavy.

    First I tried an Ardent 2.4 on the Dually because I was still waiting on my Knard order. Only took one ride with this setup, but I liked it. I didn't get any measurements, but to my eye the Dually didn't cause the Ardent casing width to be much wider. The profile definitely flattened out though and the traction was great. The bead was incredibly tight on this rim and very difficult to unmount.

    Then I got the Knard and immediately threw that on. Wow! The difference in volume was huge and the Ardent is a big tire. I measured the casing at 71.8mm and the tread at 74.9. This left about 3-4mm of clearance on the sides of the tire in my Niner carbon fork.

    Unfortunately we have been under monsoon conditions in the DC area for the past several days, so I have not had a proper ride on it. I did take it up to the local park that has just a little bit of dirt back in the woods and rode it around. It was setup at 15psi with a tube and I was having a ball monster-trucking over the roots and small stuff. I can't wait to actually take a real ride on this thing!

    Mandatory pictures attached.

    New Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0873.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0877.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0879.jpgNew Velocity "mid fat" rim, the Dually-img_0881.jpg

  28. #78
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    thanks for the post.
    notes:
    went to local bike shop, with brand new krampus , brought my bike
    an AM 29er Norco, and tried to jam it in,...the rear;
    it ain't not spinning, measured 84mm, maybe it was stretched out ;
    was so bummed, did not try the front.
    your carbon fork, be short lived, with tire rub...
    waiting for some Dirt Wizard news.
    my guess pi multipled by my thumb, on existing tire, existing rims
    new inner - old inner / 3.14 /2
    39 -23 ; 16 / 3.14 ; 5.09 / 2 = 2.54mm+ on each side wider (tire)
    tall, 3.14/2 * 2.54 = 3.98mm taller

    be nice to see some measurements , to see if the formula is any good for real live.
    since I got plenty of tires , who did not measure up to the advertised width.
    hop the wide rim will fix that.

  29. #79
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    Interesting front brake cable routing. Has the tire ever rubbed it?
    The LPG

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancelot View Post
    Interesting front brake cable routing. Has the tire ever rubbed it?
    Seems a bit sketchy to me too but then i'm anal about that sorta stuff.
    plus+, plus+ = win:

  31. #81
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    Fortunately the tire does not rub the brake cable or the inside of the fork. I wouldn't keep this setup otherwise. There is plenty of clearance around it. The brake cable does rub the inside of the fork a little, but I have some of those clear decals protecting the fork and the frame where the cable comes into contact.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post

    Mandatory pictures attached.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looks awesome! This is what I was hoping to run (Dually + Knard on Niner fork). Forgive my ignorance, but can I purchase a complete wheel from anywhere yet?

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post
    Fortunately the tire does not rub the brake cable or the inside of the fork. I wouldn't keep this setup otherwise. There is plenty of clearance around it.
    Per the static pics I agree there is plenty of clearance however when out and about bouncing up n down trails the cable will be subject to movement in a downward direction (only)and in the path of a rotating tire which has the potential for brake line failure yes?
    plus+, plus+ = win:

  34. #84
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    That tire is gonna rub for sure. Looks good though. Wish I could find a set of Duallys in stock somewhere.
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  35. #85
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    I have a few sets of Dually's in stock in 29", black and silver, 32h.

    Only thing that's kept me from lacing a set for myself are, um, these.

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I have a few sets of Dually's in stock in 29", black and silver, 32h.

    Only thing that's kept me from lacing a set for myself are, um, these.
    Mikesee, you questioned the tubeless interface of the Dually at one point. Now that you have them in your hands, are these rim different that other Velocity models?

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    Mikesee, you questioned the tubeless interface of the Dually at one point. Now that you have them in your hands, are these rim different that other Velocity models?
    You can see in pic in the original post that there is no lip to keep the bead from sliding inward on this extrusion. So while I don't doubt that they can be made to bead-up and hold air tubeless, I'd never, ever recommend riding them that way. I consider it unsafe, especially given the low PSI's that (most, not all) will be running their Knards on these rims.

    Short answer = no, not really different.

  38. #88
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    Your guys focus on the brake routing got me concerned, so I rerouted outside the fork.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You can see in pic in the original post that there is no lip to keep the bead from sliding inward on this extrusion. So while I don't doubt that they can be made to bead-up and hold air tubeless, I'd never, ever recommend riding them that way. I consider it unsafe, especially given the low PSI's that (most, not all) will be running their Knards on these rims.

    Short answer = no, not really different.
    Bummer! Guess I'll stay with my Rabbit Holes for awhile.
    The LPG

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post
    Your guys focus on the brake routing got me concerned, so I rerouted outside the fork.
    I'ts rare i make any sort of sense but if I do it's because i stay @ a Holiday Inn Express when on vaca.
    plus+, plus+ = win:

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcallahan View Post
    Your guys focus on the brake routing got me concerned, so I rerouted outside the fork.
    I just saw that, concerned!

  42. #92
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    I built these up last night. Polished silver Duallys, White Industries hubs, Wheelsmith DB14 spokes and alloy nipples - just over 2300g (rims were 680g and 682g, ERD 607mm measuring to top of nipple), all made in the USA.

    'Merica!





    They were kind of a PITA to work with, there were a lot of chips floating around inside the rims that had to be shaken out and lots of polishing compound still on/in them. Inside the tire bed and caked inside spoke holes. They built up nice though, they feel really light for such a wide rim.

  43. #93
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    Sweet!

    I recall my P35s had a massivly annoying amount shavings trapped inside.
    Slowly slipping to retrogrouchyness

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post
    I built these up last night. Polished silver Duallys, White Industries hubs, Wheelsmith DB14 spokes and alloy nipples - just over 2300g (rims were 680g and 682g, ERD 607mm measuring to top of nipple), all made in the USA.

    'Merica!





    They were kind of a PITA to work with, there were a lot of chips floating around inside the rims that had to be shaken out and lots of polishing compound still on/in them. Inside the tire bed and caked inside spoke holes. They built up nice though, they feel really light for such a wide rim.
    Killer build, & thanks for the feedback -- the polishing compound is a bit of an annoyance. Our polisher cleans the rims but it seems there's always a bit trapped on the inside. We'll look more into what we can do about that and the 'swarth' that gets trapped in the drilling process.
    bike dude, velocity employee (this is my personal account)

  45. #95
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    Enjoy the shiny now boys, cause they are getting dirty this weekend! They look amazing Dustin, can't wait to get them on my Krampus. Will post pics when mounted.

  46. #96
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    Are they clear coated after polishing?
    The LPG

  47. #97
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    Well... that was not pleasurable! They ain't shiny no more as they are covered in Orange Seal.
    Got the wheels this morning and decided to mount the Knards and pump 'em up. I did my usual routine of soaping and then pumping the tires up without sealant first to get them seated.
    Nope, they were going to need a compressor instead of my floor pump. Took them to my LBS and used their compressor. Lots of sealant ended up on the floor. Now I am not sure if they have enough sealant in them after it was shooting out the sides.
    Problem is, Orange Seal recommends 3-4 oz per tire for a 29er, with Stan's I have always used 2 oz, but since this is a bigger tire I went ahead and put 4 in each... end of bottle. LBS does not carry Oranges Seal, not sure if I can mix Stan's with them or not.
    Left them at the LBS with my Krampus build on their sides and asked the mechanics to flip them occasionally, hopefully when I go in tomorrow to pick up my bike they will have sealed.
    The wheels look great, the seam in the rim doesn't look fantastic but everything else is good.
    Dustin at Southern Wheelworks did an awesome job on the build and answered all 4,000 of my questions without a complaint. Great customer service for sure.
    Will update later with photos.

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgaddis1 View Post

    I'm surprised you didn't build your wheels so the valve was in the large spoke gap. Was this on purpose? Reasoning?

    If you're not sure what I mean, here is a picture from Sheldon Brown's site.


  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch rides a SS View Post
    I'm surprised you didn't build your wheels so the valve was in the large spoke gap. Was this on purpose? Reasoning?

    If you're not sure what I mean, here is a picture from Sheldon Brown's site.

    It's just the angle of the picture. Valves are always between two parallel spokes! Hers another picture, the duallys and two other wheels I laced up that same night:


  50. #100
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    Wow, that picture fooled me

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