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  1. #1
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    Marge Lite Wheelbuild Question

    I just picked up a set of Marge Lite's. I measured the ERD myself before ordering spokes and with my homemade two spoke and caliper measuring tool I get a ERD of 545.4mm. My gauge is set to measure to the bottom of the screwdriver slot on the nipple. All the posted info on says that the ERD is 543.4mm.
    I know it's only a difference of 1mm per side but since the rear is a Rohloff I have to get them cut to length and I want to double check before I order spokes.
    Does anyone have a measurement to compare to other than Surly's posted 543.4?

  2. #2
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    Trust Surly's ERD

    I don't have a measuring tool handy but I would trust Surly's posted ERD. If they got that wrong we would have heard by now, and the last thing Surly wants to do is post bogus info on one of their biggest selling items.

    I've never had a problem using QBP's spoke calculator in the 10 yrs I've had a shop and they show 543.4, so I would trust it.

    Pat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Mutt View Post
    I just picked up a set of Marge Lite's. I measured the ERD myself before ordering spokes and with my homemade two spoke and caliper measuring tool I get a ERD of 545.4mm. My gauge is set to measure to the bottom of the screwdriver slot on the nipple. All the posted info on says that the ERD is 543.4mm.
    I know it's only a difference of 1mm per side but since the rear is a Rohloff I have to get them cut to length and I want to double check before I order spokes.
    Does anyone have a measurement to compare to other than Surly's posted 543.4?
    If you usually get good build results with your measuring method and your spoke calculator, continue to use that method.
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  4. #4
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    ERD is measured from the rim inner wall. You are adding the thickness of the nipple head. As it is a single wall rim, you have less room for error. You can grind off extra spoke length, but it isn't very fun. Your spokes are going to come out long. I would use the Surly spec.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by patirwin View Post
    I've never had a problem using QBP's spoke calculator in the 10 yrs I've had a shop and they show 543.4, so I would trust it.
    FYI - QBP's spoke length calculator gave me a spoke length that was too long for my Rolling Darryl/XT front hub.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTMN View Post
    FYI - QBP's spoke length calculator gave me a spoke length that was too long for my Rolling Darryl/XT front hub.
    It did for me too. I don't think it claculated for spoke bed offset because when I punched it in to freespoke and changed the spoke offset to zero it gave me about the same length QBP's did. Which was to long!
    And I love beer!!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Mutt View Post
    I just picked up a set of Marge Lite's. I measured the ERD myself before ordering spokes and with my homemade two spoke and caliper measuring tool I get a ERD of 545.4mm. My gauge is set to measure to the bottom of the screwdriver slot on the nipple. All the posted info on says that the ERD is 543.4mm.
    I know it's only a difference of 1mm per side but since the rear is a Rohloff I have to get them cut to length and I want to double check before I order spokes.
    Does anyone have a measurement to compare to other than Surly's posted 543.4?
    238 is the correct length for a ML laced 2x to a Rohloff. Built one a few days ago.

    Edit: I used 544 for my first few ML builds, but 543 works mobetta.

    MC
    Last edited by mikesee; 01-14-2012 at 10:05 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    It did for me too. I don't think it claculated for spoke bed offset because when I punched it in to freespoke and changed the spoke offset to zero it gave me about the same length QBP's did. Which was to long!
    Thanks for the info. I had a hunch QBP's calculator was failing to consider the fact that the spoke holes aren't running down the middle of the rim. What did freespoke use for an offset value? It would be interesting to see if putting that offset into Q's calculator would fix the problem.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTMN View Post
    Thanks for the info. I had a hunch QBP's calculator was failing to consider the fact that the spoke holes aren't running down the middle of the rim. What did freespoke use for an offset value? It would be interesting to see if putting that offset into Q's calculator would fix the problem.
    They list the RD spoke bed offset at 12.5mm left and 12.5mm right. Let me know how it works out.
    And I love beer!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTMN View Post
    Thanks for the info. I had a hunch QBP's calculator was failing to consider the fact that the spoke holes aren't running down the middle of the rim. What did freespoke use for an offset value? It would be interesting to see if putting that offset into Q's calculator would fix the problem.
    I thought about that after I posted. Mike C's post confirms it.
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    I think now I've used all the available spoke calculators over the past 25 years. I have to say that the mikesee calculator is by far the easiest to use. Thanks for the help!

  12. #12
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    dredge: does anyone know if the surly quoted erd of 543.5 for a marge lite allows for lacing to non offset hubs with the offsetting of the spoke holes ? i cant imagine it makes *much* difference in spoke length, but im caught between 262mm and 264mm spokes....and if they didnt allow for offset spoke holes id be better with 262mm

    ive read about the 263mm and of course this looks like it would be perfect...cant get 263mm dt comps easily this side of the pond... :-(~

    coming back to this, im not sure what i typed is clear....

    so, question. is the surly quoted erd for the marge lite a hypothetical erd that takes account of the 12.5mm offset-from-centre nipple drilling, or, is the erd accurate for using the rim offset (all spokes to one 'side' )

    my suspicion is the latter....poking around with the dt calculator and the freespoke one, it actually makes more of a difference to spoke length than i thought it might....nearly 2mm....thats a lot of dremel work....even if you dont bottom out the spoke threads at good tension....

    im using prolock alu nips so i want the spoke to 'fill' the nipple....so accuracy is key...and it looks like yup! +1 mikesee! 263mm spokes will be key....ebay here i come...so i *think* ive answered my own question, but if anyone thinks different, do pipe up!
    Last edited by dRjOn; 11-22-2012 at 02:40 PM.

  13. #13
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    I use Freespoke fullcalc, it has rim and hub offsets:
    Freespoke

  14. #14
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    well...that was interesting....so i got around to building the fatsno/marge lite. i might be a bit belligerent, but i like aluminum nipples. there we go. after using freespoke, reading around and measuring everything except the ERD on the rim by vernier gauge and confirming the dimensions, on building this combo, 3 cross, with 263mm spokes - nothing funky going on - i found the spokes too short to fill the nipple. hmmmm....tension within 5kgf of 100kgf on the drive side (quite a bit less, but still consistent, on the disc side....which sort of surprised me), perfectly dished, spokes all bent round flanges etc...spoke ended well below the shaft/head of the nipple on the disc side and only just came into the head on the drive side.



    nothing for it but to take it apart and build it up with 264mm spokes.

    Wheel Fanatyk: Wheel Building Tip No. 9 - Succeed with Alu Nipples

    this time, on the higher tension, drive, side the spokes were 0.5mm away from the 'top' of the nipple and came to the bottom of the nipple slot on the disc side. perfectly dished, within .1mm side to side and lateral (other than the welded joint area, a given), 100kgf/ within 5kgf on the drive side.

    so: i thought id post up my exeperience because it is, i suspect, common build to consider and at least in the UK 264mm spokes are a heck of a lot easier to get hold of.

    cool wheel though :-)~

  15. #15
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    both my ML received 263 with a great tension and trueness however a paul WHUB and CK rear for hubs may be the diff.

  16. #16
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    indeed! id expect different hubs needing slightly different spoke lengths, with various on-line wheel build programs the suggestion for my build was very much that 263mm would be ideal...263.1 left 262.6 right from freespoke for example.

    so - unless there is something i dont know about going on with the ERD ( i will go and measure this on the rim destined for the front wheel) the calculator isnt calibrated for aluminium nipples....for brass nipples, 263mm would be fine IMO/FWIW, but not for my OCD!

    oddly enough, if you plug the ERD and measurements into the DT swiss calculator, you pop out....264mm.....my question is, did surly cut out the middleman (reminds me of the 'name your fingers' song my 2 year old sings....) and in giving the ERD of 543.5 allow us to calculate the spoke length easily on standard spoke calculators that dont necessarily allow offset spoke-nipple hole dimensions etc.

    i should qualify all this: *nothing* mitigates against slight errors on wheel builds - after all you are relying on lots of measurements and i guess in a perfect storm of manufacturing/measuring differences of 0.1mm at every stage, you could easily find a different spoke length is better.

    Nothing can substitute experience.

  17. #17
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    Mine were good too at 263mm on Fatsno's using revos and brass nipples.

    Maybe the 1.5mm revo spoke stretches a little bit bringing the spoke well inside the head ???
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  18. #18
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    Did you subtract the 12.5 from the flange dimensions?

    Steven

    Quote Originally Posted by FTMN View Post
    FYI - QBP's spoke length calculator gave me a spoke length that was too long for my Rolling Darryl/XT front hub.

  19. #19
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    ok: so it took me a while to pull my finger out and measure the marge lite erd.

    the actual erd is (imo!) 546.5mm. Interestingly, when you slot this into freespoke for example, and factor in the 12.5mm offset spoke holes you come out with the exact spoke length i would need to have the threaded part of the spoke entirely fill the nipple. important if you use alu nips. i see stray mutt got 545.4mm to the bottom of the nipple slots...which i reckon is pretty dam close...

    if you are not yawning already, i wrote up a bit more on my blog...

    E.R.D. drj0nswanderings

    summary...it seems the erd surly quotes factors in offset....has anyone built them offset to 135mm hubs and can comment?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn View Post
    i should qualify all this: *nothing* mitigates against slight errors on wheel builds - after all you are relying on lots of measurements and i guess in a perfect storm of manufacturing/measuring differences of 0.1mm at every stage, you could easily find a different spoke length is better.

    Nothing can substitute experience.
    On that note, I find the easiest way to calc on-center fat wheel builds with offset spoke beds (in this case, Marge Lite's) is to use the *measured* ERD of (543 in this case), input actual hub dimensions, then subtract 1mm from the spoke calc's output.

    In this case, for example, I'd confidently use 263 on both sides:



    Get it?

    Offset laced builds use a whole different 'theory', since the hub is offset but the spokes run in-line.

  21. #21
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    thanks mike!

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