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  1. #1
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    KHS joins the fray

    So a local buddy of mine is a KHS rep.

    He sent me these pics today, perhaps I am off the back again in terms of knowledge, but he said they found out yesterday, and had heard nothing before then....

    The onslaught continues, late Fall is the expected launch date, color/graphics are still TBD.
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    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  2. #2
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    Next March is shaping up to be an excellent time to shop for a discounted fat bike, especially if you are not too particular about the brand. Those huge margins Surly was getting and the explosion in media coverage were too tempting for a lot of manufacturers to resist.

  3. #3
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    How did you get the color off of your 907?
    Are you going to paint it or anodize it?

  4. #4
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    Not a 907 by the looks of the dropouts and other details. Similar otherwise. I was told once by a KHS-selling shop owner that KHS does their own frame manufacturing? Is thet correct? Do they make frames for other companies as well? Looks, well, like a fat bike. Exciting none the less. I'd like to see some geo specs., etc.

    Looked again. Very similar, but I think not a stripped 907
    Last edited by vaultbrad; 07-31-2013 at 08:27 AM. Reason: More picture examining.

  5. #5
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Just worth noting, I'm just the messenger here. I don't sell the brand, or, have any sort of additional info. He just shot me the pics since he knows I follow "Fat" and thought I'd be curious.

    He also gave me permission to post them....

    Smithcreek, Surly doesn't make margins larger than any other manufacturer. Smaller volume, unique production costs more. Why is it that most recent intro bikes cost about the same as the existing market products? Because things cost what they do, to make. Why as a manufacturer, would you charge far less for a product in an emerging market that offers a good chance for some profit?

    I baffles me why many think bike makers are out there to give us Fatbikes of equal quality and spec for less margin. It's not like any of them are making bikes to just "hook a fatbiker up, who's getting screwed by other brands"......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



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  6. #6
    Location: SouthPole of MN
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    I agree. I'm tired of hearing about surly and margins and ripping off and bla bla bla overpriced. It's not for what it is... but anyway... that horse has been beaten to death many times already.

    Anyway... tell your guy to tell KHS to slap some graphics on there an leave it raw as-is! Love that look. I agree it looks a lot like a 907 frame, but I was just comparing the two with some photo's online and it looks like the KHS seat stay connects to the seat tube higher? Crazy similar though.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Smithcreek, Surly doesn't make margins larger than any other manufacturer. Smaller volume, unique production costs more. Why is it that most recent intro bikes cost about the same as the existing market products? Because things cost what they do, to make. Why as a manufacturer, would you charge far less for a product in an emerging market that offers a good chance for some profit?

    I baffles me why many think bike makers are out there to give us Fatbikes of equal quality and spec for less margin. It's not like any of them are making bikes to just "hook a fatbiker up, who's getting screwed by other brands"......
    Thanks for some sane comments about fatbikes and pricing. The FAT conspiracy theorists are getting too much airtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    I agree. I'm tired of hearing about surly and margins and ripping off and bla bla bla overpriced. It's not for what it is... but anyway... that horse has been beaten to death many times already.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  8. #8
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    What I'm sick of is people reading something into a post that was not there. I'm simply making an observation on what I guess their margins are not a judgement. I'm all for making money. MSRP does not equate to margins, so considering Surly and their dealers have sold the vast majority of their fat bikes and fat bike accessories (mainly tires) at MSRP the past few years, not discount, I would think their margins were pretty healthy. And good for them. But with a flood of new models coming this year alone I'll bet things don't stay the same.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    But with a flood of new models coming this year alone I'll bet things don't stay the same.
    I think you are right. I suspect that at the end of the 2013/14 season there will be a lot of cheap fatbikes being sold when the surplus stock reality hits home with all the manufacturers and LBS.

    I hope the companies that actually care about fatbikes and have invested in them all this time survive the process.

    You can be sure as $hit that Special Ed, Trek, etc... don't give a rat's a$$ about the market unless they see an golden opportunity. They'll drop their fatbikes in a heartbeat if sales aren't what they expected and move onto the next "hot" product.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  10. #10
    Wizard of the Trail
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    KHS joins the fray

    That top tube looks pretty much identical to my 907.


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  11. #11
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    Whys everyone want to bring out another aluminium rigid fatbike :-?

  12. #12
    Fat & Single
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    Its good to get more manufacturers releasing fatbikes but I have a strange habit of looking first at the tyres... then the frame.
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  13. #13
    Wizard of the Trail
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    KHS joins the fray

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Its good to get more manufacturers releasing fatbikes but I have a strange habit of looking first at the tyres... then the frame.
    I am with you on that habit.


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    There is no charge for awesomeness......or attractiveness.

    Good rep does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.

  14. #14
    Harmonius Wrench
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    You can be sure as $hit that Special Ed, Trek, etc... don't give a rat's a$$ about the market unless they see an golden opportunity. They'll drop their fatbikes in a heartbeat if sales aren't what they expected and move onto the next "hot" product.
    First off, that KHS looks pretty cool. I sure hope all these new frames push the development and release of some new tire options. Not too excited about the Vee Rubber stuff....

    Now on to the above quote-

    Trek and Specialized are responding to cold weather area dealers that are sick of seeing QBP dealers selling stuff all day long in November/December/January while they can hardly get a customer in the door during those months and bike sales are at their lowest ebb.

    Some of those dealers are pretty big and influential, so to a degree, you are right- It is about making money, but it is also about opportunities and keeping the dealer base happy too. And it is a no-brainer that if they do not sell, Trek, Specialized, and the rest will pull out, but I ask you, is that a reasonable expectation? That the fat bike market would tank to such a degree that companies start pulling out?

    I do not think so. I think the opposite is more likely than not, and having bikes like this KHS proto surface is evidence to that point, in my opinion.

  15. #15
    Fat & Single
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    IMO most people don't start riding a fatbike, most progress to them. They have raced, ridden and owned a few bikes then this is something new that appeals to them, it opens a whole new environment that they have never ridden before, a new found traction on those places that they were not able to ride previously. They are not going to go away, its only going to get bigger and there's a whole new market of people waiting out there who have never even thought of riding one until it appears in their LBS and they have a test ride.

    There's no better feeling than to ride a bike over all the terrain that gets in your way and then some where you never ventured before.
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  16. #16
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    Went to interbike last year, thinking that we'd see fat-bikes from KHS and Kona. Now the list keeps growing - planning on riding some new-ness this winter.....which bike will choose me?
    owner/raconteur at fat-bike.com

  17. #17
    Fat & Single
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    Id have thought being Mr Fat-bike that you would have had an influx of bikes forming an orderly line
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Some of those dealers are pretty big and influential, so to a degree, you are right- It is about making money, but it is also about opportunities and keeping the dealer base happy too. And it is a no-brainer that if they do not sell, Trek, Specialized, and the rest will pull out, but I ask you, is that a reasonable expectation? That the fat bike market would tank to such a degree that companies start pulling out? .
    If there were X fatbikes made and sold in 2013 and now there are 2X or 3X fatbikes made and attempted to be sold in 2014 you have to wonder who is going to buy all these bikes. Each company wants to get their share of the market, but with so many new entries in one season can the influx of bikes actually find customers?

    If they don't sell all these bikes they'll be deeply discounted and sold over the off season decreasing demand for fatbikes in 2015.

    I just can't see demand for fatbikes growing as fast as the supply seems to be. You've had Wallmart come in at the bottom end this year then Special Ed, Trek, Norco, Kona, KHS, etc...

    The fact all these new companies are coming into the game in the same year only tells us there was some room to grow based on data up to now. Not that that there is room with the pie divided in so many pieces. What will really be telling is what happens to all these fatbikes that hit the market.
    Safe riding,

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  19. #19
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    These are great questions. The kind of questions that give bike companies, ulcers!
    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If there were X fatbikes made and sold in 2013 and now there are 2X or 3X fatbikes made and attempted to be sold in 2014 you have to wonder who is going to buy all these bikes. Each company wants to get their share of the market, but with so many new entries in one season can the influx of bikes actually find customers?

    If they don't sell all these bikes they'll be deeply discounted and sold over the off season decreasing demand for fatbikes in 2015.

    I just can't see demand for fatbikes growing as fast as the supply seems to be. You've had Wallmart come in at the bottom end this year then Special Ed, Trek, Norco, Kona, KHS, etc...

    The fact all these new companies are coming into the game in the same year only tells us there was some room to grow based on data up to now. Not that that there is room with the pie divided in so many pieces. What will really be telling is what happens to all these fatbikes that hit the market.
    owner/raconteur at fat-bike.com

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If there were X fatbikes made and sold in 2013 and now there are 2X or 3X fatbikes made and attempted to be sold in 2014 you have to wonder who is going to buy all these bikes. Each company wants to get their share of the market, but with so many new entries in one season can the influx of bikes actually find customers?

    If they don't sell all these bikes they'll be deeply discounted and sold over the off season decreasing demand for fatbikes in 2015.

    I just can't see demand for fatbikes growing as fast as the supply seems to be. You've had Wallmart come in at the bottom end this year then Special Ed, Trek, Norco, Kona, KHS, etc...

    The fact all these new companies are coming into the game in the same year only tells us there was some room to grow based on data up to now. Not that that there is room with the pie divided in so many pieces. What will really be telling is what happens to all these fatbikes that hit the market.
    Without being as explicit, that's exactly what I was getting at when I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Next March is shaping up to be an excellent time to shop for a discounted fat bike, especially if you are not too particular about the brand. Those huge margins Surly was getting and the explosion in media coverage were too tempting for a lot of manufacturers to resist.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Without being as explicit, that's exactly what I was getting at when I wrote:
    That's why I agreed with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I think you are right. I suspect that at the end of the 2013/14 season there will be a lot of cheap fatbikes being sold when the surplus stock reality hits home with all the manufacturers and LBS.
    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Those huge margins Surly was getting
    I don't agree with this part which suggests Surly was making some crazy profit on fatbikes, but hey we are allowed to have different opinions.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  22. #22
    Fat & Single
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    You reckon its a fad ?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    You reckon its a fad ?
    I reckon it's a limited niche market. You can only sell so many fatbikes in a season. That number can and will grow, but not by doubling the sales in one year for example. Given QBP's market penetration, plus the smaller companies [fatback, 907, etc..] then On One's mailorder reach and Wallmart's budget option and reach - I don't see how you add Norco, Trek, Special Ed, KHS, etc to the existing fatbike market in a healthy way.

    Any one of them - no problem, but all of them at once. Yowzers!!

    That's a lot of product to sell each year if everyone is to stay in the game.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  24. #24
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    not a fad - a market cycle
    owner/raconteur at fat-bike.com

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I don't agree with this part which suggests Surly was making some crazy profit on fatbikes, but hey we are allowed to have different opinions.
    My post was not directed at you, I knew we were basically on the same page, it's just your explanation made clear what mine hinted at. Whatever their profit was, getting MSRP and selling out of most products early in the season sure caught the attention of a lot of other bike companies.

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