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  1. #1
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    KHS joins the fray

    So a local buddy of mine is a KHS rep.

    He sent me these pics today, perhaps I am off the back again in terms of knowledge, but he said they found out yesterday, and had heard nothing before then....

    The onslaught continues, late Fall is the expected launch date, color/graphics are still TBD.
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  2. #2
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    Next March is shaping up to be an excellent time to shop for a discounted fat bike, especially if you are not too particular about the brand. Those huge margins Surly was getting and the explosion in media coverage were too tempting for a lot of manufacturers to resist.

  3. #3
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    How did you get the color off of your 907?
    Are you going to paint it or anodize it?

  4. #4
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    Not a 907 by the looks of the dropouts and other details. Similar otherwise. I was told once by a KHS-selling shop owner that KHS does their own frame manufacturing? Is thet correct? Do they make frames for other companies as well? Looks, well, like a fat bike. Exciting none the less. I'd like to see some geo specs., etc.

    Looked again. Very similar, but I think not a stripped 907
    Last edited by vaultbrad; 07-31-2013 at 09:27 AM. Reason: More picture examining.

  5. #5
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Just worth noting, I'm just the messenger here. I don't sell the brand, or, have any sort of additional info. He just shot me the pics since he knows I follow "Fat" and thought I'd be curious.

    He also gave me permission to post them....

    Smithcreek, Surly doesn't make margins larger than any other manufacturer. Smaller volume, unique production costs more. Why is it that most recent intro bikes cost about the same as the existing market products? Because things cost what they do, to make. Why as a manufacturer, would you charge far less for a product in an emerging market that offers a good chance for some profit?

    I baffles me why many think bike makers are out there to give us Fatbikes of equal quality and spec for less margin. It's not like any of them are making bikes to just "hook a fatbiker up, who's getting screwed by other brands"......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  6. #6
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    I agree. I'm tired of hearing about surly and margins and ripping off and bla bla bla overpriced. It's not for what it is... but anyway... that horse has been beaten to death many times already.

    Anyway... tell your guy to tell KHS to slap some graphics on there an leave it raw as-is! Love that look. I agree it looks a lot like a 907 frame, but I was just comparing the two with some photo's online and it looks like the KHS seat stay connects to the seat tube higher? Crazy similar though.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Smithcreek, Surly doesn't make margins larger than any other manufacturer. Smaller volume, unique production costs more. Why is it that most recent intro bikes cost about the same as the existing market products? Because things cost what they do, to make. Why as a manufacturer, would you charge far less for a product in an emerging market that offers a good chance for some profit?

    I baffles me why many think bike makers are out there to give us Fatbikes of equal quality and spec for less margin. It's not like any of them are making bikes to just "hook a fatbiker up, who's getting screwed by other brands"......
    Thanks for some sane comments about fatbikes and pricing. The FAT conspiracy theorists are getting too much airtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    I agree. I'm tired of hearing about surly and margins and ripping off and bla bla bla overpriced. It's not for what it is... but anyway... that horse has been beaten to death many times already.
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  8. #8
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    What I'm sick of is people reading something into a post that was not there. I'm simply making an observation on what I guess their margins are not a judgement. I'm all for making money. MSRP does not equate to margins, so considering Surly and their dealers have sold the vast majority of their fat bikes and fat bike accessories (mainly tires) at MSRP the past few years, not discount, I would think their margins were pretty healthy. And good for them. But with a flood of new models coming this year alone I'll bet things don't stay the same.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    But with a flood of new models coming this year alone I'll bet things don't stay the same.
    I think you are right. I suspect that at the end of the 2013/14 season there will be a lot of cheap fatbikes being sold when the surplus stock reality hits home with all the manufacturers and LBS.

    I hope the companies that actually care about fatbikes and have invested in them all this time survive the process.

    You can be sure as $hit that Special Ed, Trek, etc... don't give a rat's a$$ about the market unless they see an golden opportunity. They'll drop their fatbikes in a heartbeat if sales aren't what they expected and move onto the next "hot" product.
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  10. #10
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    KHS joins the fray

    That top tube looks pretty much identical to my 907.


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  11. #11
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    Whys everyone want to bring out another aluminium rigid fatbike :-?

  12. #12
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    Its good to get more manufacturers releasing fatbikes but I have a strange habit of looking first at the tyres... then the frame.
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  13. #13
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    KHS joins the fray

    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Its good to get more manufacturers releasing fatbikes but I have a strange habit of looking first at the tyres... then the frame.
    I am with you on that habit.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    You can be sure as $hit that Special Ed, Trek, etc... don't give a rat's a$$ about the market unless they see an golden opportunity. They'll drop their fatbikes in a heartbeat if sales aren't what they expected and move onto the next "hot" product.
    First off, that KHS looks pretty cool. I sure hope all these new frames push the development and release of some new tire options. Not too excited about the Vee Rubber stuff....

    Now on to the above quote-

    Trek and Specialized are responding to cold weather area dealers that are sick of seeing QBP dealers selling stuff all day long in November/December/January while they can hardly get a customer in the door during those months and bike sales are at their lowest ebb.

    Some of those dealers are pretty big and influential, so to a degree, you are right- It is about making money, but it is also about opportunities and keeping the dealer base happy too. And it is a no-brainer that if they do not sell, Trek, Specialized, and the rest will pull out, but I ask you, is that a reasonable expectation? That the fat bike market would tank to such a degree that companies start pulling out?

    I do not think so. I think the opposite is more likely than not, and having bikes like this KHS proto surface is evidence to that point, in my opinion.
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  15. #15
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    IMO most people don't start riding a fatbike, most progress to them. They have raced, ridden and owned a few bikes then this is something new that appeals to them, it opens a whole new environment that they have never ridden before, a new found traction on those places that they were not able to ride previously. They are not going to go away, its only going to get bigger and there's a whole new market of people waiting out there who have never even thought of riding one until it appears in their LBS and they have a test ride.

    There's no better feeling than to ride a bike over all the terrain that gets in your way and then some where you never ventured before.
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  16. #16
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    Went to interbike last year, thinking that we'd see fat-bikes from KHS and Kona. Now the list keeps growing - planning on riding some new-ness this winter.....which bike will choose me?
    owner/raconteur at fat-bike.com

  17. #17
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    Id have thought being Mr Fat-bike that you would have had an influx of bikes forming an orderly line
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Some of those dealers are pretty big and influential, so to a degree, you are right- It is about making money, but it is also about opportunities and keeping the dealer base happy too. And it is a no-brainer that if they do not sell, Trek, Specialized, and the rest will pull out, but I ask you, is that a reasonable expectation? That the fat bike market would tank to such a degree that companies start pulling out? .
    If there were X fatbikes made and sold in 2013 and now there are 2X or 3X fatbikes made and attempted to be sold in 2014 you have to wonder who is going to buy all these bikes. Each company wants to get their share of the market, but with so many new entries in one season can the influx of bikes actually find customers?

    If they don't sell all these bikes they'll be deeply discounted and sold over the off season decreasing demand for fatbikes in 2015.

    I just can't see demand for fatbikes growing as fast as the supply seems to be. You've had Wallmart come in at the bottom end this year then Special Ed, Trek, Norco, Kona, KHS, etc...

    The fact all these new companies are coming into the game in the same year only tells us there was some room to grow based on data up to now. Not that that there is room with the pie divided in so many pieces. What will really be telling is what happens to all these fatbikes that hit the market.
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  19. #19
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    These are great questions. The kind of questions that give bike companies, ulcers!
    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If there were X fatbikes made and sold in 2013 and now there are 2X or 3X fatbikes made and attempted to be sold in 2014 you have to wonder who is going to buy all these bikes. Each company wants to get their share of the market, but with so many new entries in one season can the influx of bikes actually find customers?

    If they don't sell all these bikes they'll be deeply discounted and sold over the off season decreasing demand for fatbikes in 2015.

    I just can't see demand for fatbikes growing as fast as the supply seems to be. You've had Wallmart come in at the bottom end this year then Special Ed, Trek, Norco, Kona, KHS, etc...

    The fact all these new companies are coming into the game in the same year only tells us there was some room to grow based on data up to now. Not that that there is room with the pie divided in so many pieces. What will really be telling is what happens to all these fatbikes that hit the market.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    If there were X fatbikes made and sold in 2013 and now there are 2X or 3X fatbikes made and attempted to be sold in 2014 you have to wonder who is going to buy all these bikes. Each company wants to get their share of the market, but with so many new entries in one season can the influx of bikes actually find customers?

    If they don't sell all these bikes they'll be deeply discounted and sold over the off season decreasing demand for fatbikes in 2015.

    I just can't see demand for fatbikes growing as fast as the supply seems to be. You've had Wallmart come in at the bottom end this year then Special Ed, Trek, Norco, Kona, KHS, etc...

    The fact all these new companies are coming into the game in the same year only tells us there was some room to grow based on data up to now. Not that that there is room with the pie divided in so many pieces. What will really be telling is what happens to all these fatbikes that hit the market.
    Without being as explicit, that's exactly what I was getting at when I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Next March is shaping up to be an excellent time to shop for a discounted fat bike, especially if you are not too particular about the brand. Those huge margins Surly was getting and the explosion in media coverage were too tempting for a lot of manufacturers to resist.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Without being as explicit, that's exactly what I was getting at when I wrote:
    That's why I agreed with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I think you are right. I suspect that at the end of the 2013/14 season there will be a lot of cheap fatbikes being sold when the surplus stock reality hits home with all the manufacturers and LBS.
    Quote Originally Posted by smithcreek View Post
    Those huge margins Surly was getting
    I don't agree with this part which suggests Surly was making some crazy profit on fatbikes, but hey we are allowed to have different opinions.
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  22. #22
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    You reckon its a fad ?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    You reckon its a fad ?
    I reckon it's a limited niche market. You can only sell so many fatbikes in a season. That number can and will grow, but not by doubling the sales in one year for example. Given QBP's market penetration, plus the smaller companies [fatback, 907, etc..] then On One's mailorder reach and Wallmart's budget option and reach - I don't see how you add Norco, Trek, Special Ed, KHS, etc to the existing fatbike market in a healthy way.

    Any one of them - no problem, but all of them at once. Yowzers!!

    That's a lot of product to sell each year if everyone is to stay in the game.
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  24. #24
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    not a fad - a market cycle
    owner/raconteur at fat-bike.com

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I don't agree with this part which suggests Surly was making some crazy profit on fatbikes, but hey we are allowed to have different opinions.
    My post was not directed at you, I knew we were basically on the same page, it's just your explanation made clear what mine hinted at. Whatever their profit was, getting MSRP and selling out of most products early in the season sure caught the attention of a lot of other bike companies.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    First off, that KHS looks pretty cool.
    I don't understand what you guys talk about. That's not a new 'Fat Bike' to wank about. This bike is a 907.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgould View Post
    I don't understand what you guys talk about. That's not a new 'Fat Bike' to wank about. This bike is a 907.
    It's not, but looks very similar. If you read back some posts I mentioned that if you compare photos the seatstay attaches higher to the seatpost than on a 9zero7. Rear triangle looks a little different too. But yeah... unless this is a very early proto... very similar.

    Something I would also add to everyone's excellent points about the rush of new fat bikes to the market... I would also factor in the "holy sh!t it's cold" factor – the person who buys one for winter riding and then realizes dressing, and winter bike handling is a journey in itself... and they don't like it so much. I totally agree that there will be a bunch of sale and used fat bikes in the coming years.

    Edit. Comparison. Enjoy.

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I just can't see demand for fatbikes growing as fast as the supply seems to be.
    ^^^this^^^

    yes, I have a hard time believing the demand is really growing in line with the ramp up in supply. Some people who bought a fatbike over the years may be looking to upgrade to a different frame material or geometry but I don't really see that many people lining up to drop over $1500 on a new fatbike.

    Interested to see what pans out in late February....and if shops have stock still sitting around unsold.

    That said, lots more people seem to be out rolling fatties in the dirt these days. If that catches on then who knows.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRALPH View Post
    I don't really see that many people lining up to drop over $1500 on a new fatbike.
    They won't be "lining up" to buy them, but there will be fat bikes in a lot of places they weren't before in front of a lot of people that have never seen them before.

    The rest is up to the salespeople to make it happen.

    This forum is maybe a bit blind to the fact that fat bikes, (a well known "commodity" here), are not all that well known in a lot of places in the U.S., and certainly I would think other countries are similar. These KHS bikes will appear in shops where, I would submit, the majority of the customers coming in have never seen a fat bike before. If the shops have sales folks "on the ball", they will sell. You all know the reasons why that is, so I will not go into that.

    I bet beaches along the coasts would be a great place for fat biking, or along lake sides, or on bike paths, or....well, the lists can go on and on. Winter cold won't be the deciding factor on whether these bikes sell or not in many places, or it shouldn't be.

    So I think the thoughts about discounted fat bikes in the spring are a bit premature.
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    I agree that the top tube is a direct copy of the 9ZERO. I am not fond of a company like KHS (cheap sh!t overall) doing something like this. But with sexy lines like that, who could resist.

    I expect in the next few years people will be selling their fatties at a deep discount with a title that includes "hardly ridden, never used" because they are not a bike for the masses. People will impulse buy, ride a few times in the cold, realize they will need to invest another $1k in lights, cloths, etc... and ditch the fad.

  31. #31
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    Except for all those ROW countries that would be riding them on the beach, tho they might have to lose a t-shirt and buy some sun screen...

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    Since Specialized released info on their bikes we have had great interest in the bikes. There is no snow here and we mostly ride the bikes on our trail network I am pretty sure the first shipment of bikes will sell out if it hasn't already for Australia.

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    Spesh will prob rip off the fosters commercial.

    " Fatboy....Austrailian for fatbike"

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    One can see a few fatbikes going on the second hand market, once the "new owners" get tired of them. Lets hope the market saturation next year has positive results and not too many negatives...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    They won't be "lining up" to buy them, but there will be fat bikes in a lot of places they weren't before in front of a lot of people that have never seen them before.

    The rest is up to the salespeople to make it happen.

    This forum is maybe a bit blind to the fact that fat bikes, (a well known "commodity" here), are not all that well known in a lot of places in the U.S., and certainly I would think other countries are similar. These KHS bikes will appear in shops where, I would submit, the majority of the customers coming in have never seen a fat bike before. If the shops have sales folks "on the ball", they will sell. You all know the reasons why that is, so I will not go into that.

    I bet beaches along the coasts would be a great place for fat biking, or along lake sides, or on bike paths, or....well, the lists can go on and on. Winter cold won't be the deciding factor on whether these bikes sell or not in many places, or it shouldn't be.

    So I think the thoughts about discounted fat bikes in the spring are a bit premature.
    I was riding a trail this last weekend and I stopped to talk to a couple that was hiking. They were admiring my bike (Moonlander), and the man said that if he was going to get a bike, he wanted to get one like mine. This guy was somewhere in the neighborhood of 80 years old.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

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    What I am wondering is who is going to provide supply of high-end tires? With all these new frames hitting the market, the September ETA Husker Du's could sell out in days.

    Looks to me like a big market opportunity for a high-performance, long-wearing, 1200g tire at a sub $150 price point. I would think that if you could get volume high enough, someone could still be making a very healthy margin even at $100 per tire.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooSteep View Post
    Looks to me like a big market opportunity for a high-performance, long-wearing, 1200g tire at a sub $150 price point. I would think that if you could get volume high enough, someone could still be making a very healthy margin even at $100 per tire.
    Toosteep, this has been beat to death on many other threads here, do a search and have an overdose on tyre pricing debates.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Spesh will prob rip off the fosters commercial.

    " Fatboy....Austrailian for fatbike"
    John, the funny thing is nobody drinks Fosters here, its not advertised and I didn't even know their slogan. Its an internationally sold beer aimed at overseas markets to make them think we all drink cold Fosters on the beach, surrounded in bikini clad hotties while kangaroos hop around us

    Marketing at its best
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  39. #39
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    A Pugs still rules - okay maybe the moonlander - or Krampus - oh fine... Surly rules.
    My bike is heavier than yours - it does not have Carbon or Titanium parts - I love it!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    Toosteep, this has been beat to death on many other threads here, do a search and have an overdose on tyre pricing debates.
    Ok. Forget the price. If Guitar Ted is correct, and regular LBS's start moving fatbikes to a new audience this fall, where will the aftermarket 'upgrade' tires come from? Will anyone be stepping in to meet tire demand?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TooSteep View Post
    Will anyone be stepping in to meet tire demand?
    We hear Specialized and Kenda are at some stage soon, waiting on whimpering's from Maxxis and Schwalbe
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  42. #42
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    My opinion is that the Fat Bike market will not grow as rapidly as manufacturers are thinking, but it will grow quickly now with more big names in the game.
    Bottom line is that brands like Trek, Specialized, etc appeal to the masses. Many people who looked at a Salsa or a Surly fat bike as an oddball gimmick will now see it as a reasonable option for a bike that anyone can enjoy. Also, with the new big names, all the lbs guys will be talking them up and promoting them as the next best thing.
    Like any new craze, many will jump in and fail quickly, and others will thrive and continue to innovate.
    Prices for things like tires will likely drop, not because companies will reduce margins, but because the larger quantities being produced will allow for lower prices with the SAME margins.
    It will be interesting to see who stays out in front of the pack. Brands like Salsa and Surly will likely continue to have a cult following, and big names will rush to be the first to the market with new innovative bits and pieces. Should be a win win for the consumer. With companies like Specialize and Trek allocating R&D money to fat bikes, I dont see how it can be bad for anyone who likes to ride a fat bike....
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    We hear Specialized and Kenda are at some stage soon, waiting on whimpering's from Maxxis and Schwalbe
    I cant wait for a 5" Hans Damph!

  44. #44
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    Fixed it. You read the same kind of comments over in the 650b forum, if it's not HUGE margins, then they are ramming new tech down people throats only to sell more bikes. no kidding Sherlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    It baffles me why many think bike makers should not make a profit just like every other company in every other industry in the world attemtpts to do.

  45. #45
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    People on these forums have a different perspective on things. I work in a very large shop that sells Specialized and Rocky Mountain as our main mountain bike lines. People walk in everyday and make commnets like "I've never heard of Specialized or Rocky, are they any good?" Think these people have ever heard of or have seen a fat bike from comapnies with names like Surly, 907, Salsa? Putting fatbikes in your local LBS is going to reach a whole new market. I can assure you we'll have Spec. fatbikes on display out on the sidewalk this winter, to help make people aware these things actually exist. My boss figures there are about 80 fat bike sales in my city in a year, we have 1.1 million people, I'm in Canada in a location that would make good use of a fat bike. The pie is about to get bigger IMO.

  46. #46
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    Just back from a morning ride on my Pugs...out-of-date offset tecnology, "only" 4" rubber, etc. But every time I ride it, its all about smiles per hour.

    It just suits the riding of the infirm and aged like myself, as well as the younger folks that don't have the time or inclination to work on bike skills and fitness every day. I believe the fat thing will be a juggernaut that will steal sales from the regular market. The bike that can do it all.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfatbaldguy View Post
    I believe the fat thing will be a juggernaut that will steal sales from the regular market. The bike that can do it all.
    It will be interesting to see what happens with fatbike sales relative to the alternative basic 29er/650B mountain bikes. Will people who aren't in need of fattires for snow/sand see the value in them for general trail riding when they can buy a lighter front suspension MTB for significantly less $$?

    If someone wants to ride in snow/sand the sales path to a fatbike is pretty clear.

    A fatbike replacing "normal" MTBs is not as easy/obvious a sell. Not that it can't happen, but you have to get people stoked to spend more for a rigid heavier bike than the other options that would work for them on the same trails.
    Safe riding,

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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddle Up View Post
    People on these forums have a different perspective on things. I work in a very large shop that sells Specialized and Rocky Mountain as our main mountain bike lines. People walk in everyday and make commnets like "I've never heard of Specialized or Rocky, are they any good?" Think these people have ever heard of or have seen a fat bike from comapnies with names like Surly, 907, Salsa? Putting fatbikes in your local LBS is going to reach a whole new market. I can assure you we'll have Spec. fatbikes on display out on the sidewalk this winter, to help make people aware these things actually exist. My boss figures there are about 80 fat bike sales in my city in a year, we have 1.1 million people, I'm in Canada in a location that would make good use of a fat bike. The pie is about to get bigger IMO.
    That's what I was thinking, the amount of people who know that fatbikes exist is still small, without even considering ROW countries where they are almost unheard of. Massive market!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfatbaldguy View Post
    Just back from a morning ride on my Pugs...out-of-date offset tecnology, "only" 4" rubber, etc. But every time I ride it, its all about smiles per hour.

    It just suits the riding of the infirm and aged like myself, as well as the younger folks that don't have the time or inclination to work on bike skills and fitness every day. I believe the fat thing will be a juggernaut that will steal sales from the regular market. The bike that can do it all.
    You sir, are a genius. Or better yet, you agree with me! I'm a 53 years young rider who's not much into racing but still enjoys pushing myself a bit (just completed my first century road ride last week) I rode a Pugs for 3 seasons, mostly winter riding on singletrack, but also an occasional summer trail ride. What great bike! Still, I sold it this spring to fund the purchase of my Beargrease. Someone got a nice 3 year old fat bike for almost half the cost of new. I can see riding my new carbon fatbike darn near year round.
    There are three kinds of people: those of us that are good at math and those that are not.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    It will be interesting to see what happens with fatbike sales relative to the alternative basic 29er/650B mountain bikes. Will people who aren't in need of fattires for snow/sand see the value in them for general trail riding when they can buy a lighter front suspension MTB for significantly less $$?

    If someone wants to ride in snow/sand the sales path to a fatbike is pretty clear.

    A fatbike replacing "normal" MTBs is not as easy/obvious a sell. Not that it can't happen, but you have to get people stoked to spend more for a rigid heavier bike than the other options that would work for them on the same trails.
    I'm likely an 'outlier': While snow was a consideration, I bought my Pugsley for it's stomp-ability. I saw one in the midwest last fall and said WTF?! The guy let me take a spin on it and that was it for me, I had to have one, it was such a fecking blast to ride. I've probably put 1000 miles on mine since January, I barely ride my other bikes any more. I'll do 20-30 mile road rides, singletrack, and everything in between. About the only thing I don't do is use it for commuting in the city, I feel nervous locking t up.
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