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  1. #1
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Tire is a fat larry and rim is a marg lite.

    I've tried gorrilla tape with no foam and stans core: not enough material to seal the bead even with a compressor.

    I tried tape, then foam then tape: no luck, the tire is extremely hard to get on the rim because there is not enough space for the bead to drop into the rim. I didn't break out my motorcycle tire irons but it was literally harder than any moto tire I have ever mounted.

    I tried the dirtrag method of running two seperate sets of foam but the bead won't get over the hump created by the foam.

    I tired the split tube with foam and without foam.

    I ran the tape up and over the rim but I had a hell of a time keeping the kinks out and the tape was too easily damaged when mounting the tire. It didn't seem like a great longterm solution.

    I am at a loss and threw the tube back in after giving up. I injected 3 cups of stans in the tube and would be willing to call it a day if it kept me from getting flats but I've never had a good luck with sealant in tubes.

    Is this tire and rim combo not an easy tubeless setup? Are some rims easier than others? Even with the tube, I have to soap the tire to get the bead to seat.

    I've read every thread on here and am at a total loss for what to try next. Any help/guidance would be great. I luv my new pug but I ride in places with thorns all over and it will be a major pain to not be able to run tubless (unless the stans in the tube actually works.)

  2. #2
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    Have you tried lubing up the tire bead with soapy water before trying to get it to go on? Just a thought.
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  3. #3
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    Why does everyone stick stans in tubes?

  4. #4
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    tubeless = toobsmore
    plus+, plus+ = win:

  5. #5
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    Re: I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Idk? Works for me, I've never had any luck with Stans in tubes tho. I think maybe slime would work better for in the tube.

  6. #6
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    What sort of foam are you using? I've had good luck with a couple of different kinds. My current set up is colorful duct tape as a rim strip, two strips of caulkless caulk strips (one on each side of the rim), then high quality filament tape to the bead shelf, and a split tube. Yes, it can be finicky to get on there, but patience overcomes, and is worth it. Really soapy water helps. And the fingers of a Greek god.

  7. #7
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    I've had success using Larry, endo, Hudu on rd's. Split tube and gorilla tape.
    c
    Yesterday i could not get a new Hudu on a Marge lite. It sat for a week with a tube in it so the bead was straight, nothing i did would work. Took a well used Hudu off old rim, mounted first try. Wth...

  8. #8
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    Are you familiar with setting up tubeless in general?

    I ask because there's got to be something you're missing. I think everyone here has had a tire that gave them fits at one time or another, be it skinny, or fat.

    But I've set up enough fatties at this point to know I get the same results with them, so air right up, others, fight you a bit, just to see if you really want it.

    Since you've done so many methods, and still not had luck, there has to be something you're missing, just gotta be.....

    That rim is just like a CS, or RD in terms of construction. Are you getting one bead edge into the center of the rim before trying to get the other edge up over and on? If the bead sits right at the edge, it will be very tough to get the other side of the same bead, on the rim.

    The center of the rim is lower, so it gives you more wiggle room to get the tire on. A bit of foam, tube, or tape isn't enough to make this tough. They are so loose, they are hard to keep on the rim, when in the mid section of the rim....
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  9. #9
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    I just mounted up a HuDu on a Rolling Darryl, and it was a b1tch, but I got it to work eventually. I tried the foam approach previously on Large Marges, and I experienced the same problems as you with trying to get the bead over the foam. Ultimately, I think the foam is unnecessary. I recommend that you take out the foam, get the beads seated with a tube, then pop the bead off on one side, remove the tube, dump some Stan's in, and then air it up with the compressor. I actually had to enlist a couple of friends to help pull the unseated bead up against the shelf while airing mine up to get the bead to seat without the tube... I've also used a ratchet strap to compress a Larry to get it to seat on a LM.
    Last edited by BoogieMang; 05-03-2013 at 08:40 AM.

  10. #10
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    If the problem is getting the tire to bead initially, there is always the explosion method. Its what I used to mount larry's on my RD's with just tape. Bead tire with tube, unbead one side, take out tube leaving one side beaded, spray some ether, light it, done. Search for "fat bike tubess conversion" on youtube. I will warn this is potentially the most dangerous method, perform at your own risk. Worked fine for me though.

  11. #11
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    waiting for the guyridingfatbiketubelessnoeyebrows.jpg

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFFcourse View Post
    Why does everyone stick stans in tubes?
    Iíve had fewer flats with Stanís in my fatbike innertubes than without it. I like to run the pressure relatively low (7 - 10psi) for bombing through the rocky technical stuff, and a few times Iíve had pointy rocks gouge into the sidewalls such that it poked holes in the tube which the Stanís goop was able to seal up.
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  13. #13
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    Thanks for all the info guys.

    I finally had success last night and while I haven't ridden the bike hard yet, the tires are holding air well and feel solid. Here is what finally worked in case anyone else runs into trouble.

    1. Pink Sill foam from homedepot. The front with the Larry required 2 wraps, the rear required three wraps.
    2. Gorilla taped the foam in place but this is probably in not really needed. It just make getting the tire on less frustrating because the foam stays put.
    3. Split 24''x2.00 tube with the valve carefully cut out and a stans valve in its place.
    4. 3 scoops of stans after airing up once to make sure everything seated ok. I used very light soapy water on the rubber innertube to help it seat. Probably overkill on the stans but I ride in a very thorny area.

    I didn't trim the split tube. It looks weird but I can't see any ill effects and I don't want to have to buy a new tube each time. What is your opinion on trimming vs no trimming?

    Thanks again for the help. I can't wait to ride tomorrow!

  15. #15
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    Woops, double post.

  16. #16
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    No trim works for me. Question....why did you split tube and then cut out the valve to use a Stan's? You could have just used he Stan's valve and a layer of tape, or just used the valve in the tube? It just seems like another place to have an issue. I use a schrader split tube because I prefer the way the valve core comes out, and I feel hat I get a better pressure reading when I bother with that sort of thing.

  17. #17
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    I think I am getting close using a tube for rim tape and then this method:
    Fat Bike Tubeless Conversion - YouTube

  18. #18
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Unnecessary.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntm1973 View Post
    3. Split 24''x2.00 tube with the valve carefully cut out and a stans valve in its place.
    Yeah, why on earth would you do something like that? Cutting the valve out the the split tube just to replace it with a stans valve defeats the entire purpose of using the split tube in the first place.....

  20. #20
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    put a toob in and be done with it...
    plus+, plus+ = win:

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPcycles View Post
    Yeah, why on earth would you do something like that? Cutting the valve out the the split tube just to replace it with a stans valve defeats the entire purpose of using the split tube in the first place.....
    I think the schwalbe 24'' schrader tube is a better/cleaner way to go but......

    1. They are not available locally.
    2. You have to drill the rim. I have never done the split tube method before and didn't want to drill the rim and not have it work. (I know you can still use a presta in a schrader drilled rim and used to always drill rims for tube compatability in the "olden days.")
    3. I had the stans valve laying around and I like the removable core. I know you can put the stans in the tire before seating it but I like to inflate and then inject the stans so know it is holding air.

    The hook up and interface between the tube and stans valve is solid, it sounds less stable than it is. You can add a little washer for the stans valve to pass through if you want to firm it up even more.

    I found the foam and gorilla tape alone to be not solid enough for all the wrestling of the bead I had to do. The rubber split tube really firmed everything up and made it possible to use tire levers to get the tire bead on the rim, if I didn't have the rubber split tube, I would have messed up the tape seal with my tire levers. In hindsight, I underestimated just how tight the interface between the rim and bead needs to be in order to fill up the tire.

    I am not saying the way I got this to work is the best way, just that after trying a bunch of other options, this worked for me. After looking at everything I could find on the internet with regards to making this work, I definately think that certain rims make it easier than others. Hopefully this helps the next person.

    P.S.: I took the bike for a little spin today and it was great to be able to run such low pressure and not have to worry about thorns or pinch flats.

  22. #22
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    Re: I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    I just installed a lust crossmark onto a crossmax st rim in about 30 secs with a handpump and no sealant. Amazing what the right tools for the job bring.

    First time using Tubeless as well.

  23. #23
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    ^^^yeah, but the point is that we are doing it to rims and tires that weren't meant for it, so there is a process. Any monkey can set up tubeless on a crossmax. But congrats, you'll enjoy.

  24. #24
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    Re: I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Quote Originally Posted by Schott View Post
    ^^^yeah, but the point is that we are doing it to rims and tires that weren't meant for it, so there is a process. Any monkey can set up tubeless on a crossmax. But congrats, you'll enjoy.
    Well maybe leaky tube specific tyres are a good point to start changing your setup in a cost effective and easy way. Certainly way easier than trying new rims first. It's easily been 8 years since I changed a tyre and the difference in bead shape and strength, not to mention sidewall thickness was the first thing I noticed. It almost felt like a lightweight dh tyre, though much lighter than minions of yesteryear. I cant help bt think that a tubeless compatible tyre would save alot of hassles.

    Edit, I already have been enjoying, just managed to cut a rear tyre today so first time changing one.

  25. #25
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    I think we have tubeless rims already from Speedway/Fatback.
    and, from what I have heard, the On-One Floaters are pretty well sealed even before adding sealant as far as the casing goes. I think the bead area has been an issue on most of the rims, though.

    Has anyone tried a Floater on an Uma rim with the thin tape, and little, or no sealant?
    If the bead matches well and seals pretty good, that may be the easiest tubeless setup out there.

  26. #26
    Laramie, Wyoming
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    With this amount of frustration I'd be going back to tubes as well, but tubeless is very nice once the method is mastered.

  27. #27
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Quote Originally Posted by donthucktoflat View Post
    Well maybe leaky tube specific tyres are a good point to start changing your setup in a cost effective and easy way. Certainly way easier than trying new rims first. It's easily been 8 years since I changed a tyre and the difference in bead shape and strength, not to mention sidewall thickness was the first thing I noticed. It almost felt like a lightweight dh tyre, though much lighter than minions of yesteryear. I cant help bt think that a tubeless compatible tyre would save alot of hassles.

    Edit, I already have been enjoying, just managed to cut a rear tyre today so first time changing one.
    Are you riding a fatbike? Do you have tubeless rims and tires that you would like to clue the rest of the community in on?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by donthucktoflat View Post
    Well maybe leaky tube specific tyres are a good point to start changing your setup in a cost effective and easy way. Certainly way easier than trying new rims first. It's easily been 8 years since I changed a tyre and the difference in bead shape and strength, not to mention sidewall thickness was the first thing I noticed. It almost felt like a lightweight dh tyre, though much lighter than minions of yesteryear. I cant help bt think that a tubeless compatible tyre would save alot of hassles.

    Edit, I already have been enjoying, just managed to cut a rear tyre today so first time changing one.
    The only way I can get a tyre to last 8 years, is to not ride the bike.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntm1973 View Post
    I think the schwalbe 24'' schrader tube is a better/cleaner way to go but......
    Wait, wait. You really think that this is the way to go?
    1. a difficult to aquire tube?
    2 one that isn't even the right valve type?

    Really?

    What is so special about a Schwalbe? Can't use a Q or any other brand presta?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPcycles View Post
    Wait, wait. You really think that this is the way to go?
    1. a difficult to aquire tube?
    2 one that isn't even the right valve type?

    Really?

    What is so special about a Schwalbe? Can't use a Q or any other brand presta?
    What's so special about a presta valve in a fat bike, or mountain bike for that matter?

  31. #31
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Agreed, I don't really think it matters, certainly not enough to call one "wrong".

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntm1973 View Post
    2. You have to drill the rim. I have never done the split tube method before and didn't want to drill the rim and not have it work. (I know you can still use a presta in a schrader drilled rim and used to always drill rims for tube compatability in the "olden days.")
    3. I had the stans valve laying around and I like the removable core. I know you can put the stans in the tire before seating it but I like to inflate and then inject the stans so know it is holding air.
    So 2. isn't really a problem at all and as for 3, all Schrader valves have removable cores.

    In any case, good to hear you finally found a setup that works for you!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    What's so special about a presta valve in a fat bike, or mountain bike for that matter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Schott View Post
    Agreed, I don't really think it matters, certainly not enough to call one "wrong".
    Nothing is wrong with schrader. When I said "not the right valve type" I was refering to his rims and the fact that he didn't want to drill out the rims for the other type. I've done tubeless fat with schrader on my trials rims as they come drilled for those valves from the factory. Plus the tubes were readily available and super cheap.

    The point is, why buy a schrader valved tube in a brand that is hard to come by just to cut the valve out for presta when one could have just bought the presta tube in the first place? Wouldn't that make more sense?

  34. #34
    gran jefe
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    plus, prestas weigh 0.78 grams less, and the smaller rim hole allows the rim to be stronger.

  35. #35
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    ^^i see what you did there. I sense the sarcasm. I hope.

  36. #36
    gran jefe
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    your meter is correctly calibrated.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPcycles View Post
    Nothing is wrong with schrader. When I said "not the right valve type" I was refering to his rims and the fact that he didn't want to drill out the rims for the other type. I've done tubeless fat with schrader on my trials rims as they come drilled for those valves from the factory. Plus the tubes were readily available and super cheap.

    The point is, why buy a schrader valved tube in a brand that is hard to come by just to cut the valve out for presta when one could have just bought the presta tube in the first place? Wouldn't that make more sense?
    First of all, you can use whatever you want. I was only sharing how I put the parts together that I had readily available to me with my limited tubeless fat bike experience.

    Any schrader valve 24'' tube would work but I think it is nice to have a threaded valve stem, hence the schwable 24'' tube. Really, someone with more patience and finesse than me could just use a 24'' presta tube put the stans in before you seat the bead and be done with it. If I did that, I would have more stan's on me than in the tire. Lots of guys get their tubeles to work by just using tape and a valve core. I couldn't get that to work for me with the marge lites, YMMV.

    I took a nice long ride today and I have to say that I am really loving the whole fat bike experience. The traction is amazing (even with the endomorph) running low pressure. It seems like low pressure and fat bikes go together so well that a commercially available fat bike tubeless set up is the natural progression of things.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill in Houston View Post
    plus, prestas weigh 0.78 grams less, and the smaller rim hole allows the rim to be stronger.
    Of course you wouldn't want to enlarge that 6.3mm hole to 8.3mm on a 80mm wide rim. You would then be loosing 10% of the rim width's strength at the valve. Never mind the 30 other 1 1/2"(38mm) holes.

    Enough sarcasm, I have a legitimate question:
    On welded rims, why not drill out the section at the valve and the weld join?

    I guess it might be hard to install a tubeless valve stem that way, but it shouldn't be a problem on split schraeder valve tubes. You might have a harder time using a standard push on air chuck or pressure guage.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    put a toob in and be done with it...
    Amen!

  40. #40
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    I'm now in the "about ready to give it up" club.

    Here's what I've learned after trying to mount a larry and a knard with the gorilla tape method on Rolling daryls:

    1) Seating the bead is easy. After taping the rim, both tires seated in seconds and held air with a good air compressor. No foam buildup was used or needed. I did pre-seat one side with a regular tube though.

    2)The larry held air all evening, but was flat in the morning. No sign of stans anywhere, but soapy water revealed tiny mirco leaks at all the spokes. I did two wraps of G-tape and thought I did a perfect job....

    3)The knard leaked stans all the way around the rim. Unless it was pumped very hard, I could manually make the tire burp with my thumb. The knard has a much smaller bead and it is very pliable. Has anyone had success with a Knard 26?

    It seems to me, the knard has no chance of ever working with this method, and the Larry "might" if I improve my taping somehow.

    Any ideas? Worth trying the split tube method?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails I'm about ready to give up on tubeless-larry.jpg  

    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless-knard.jpg  


  41. #41
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    Teton29er,

    I was reluctant to go split tube and use foam but am glad that I did. It isn't as bad as you'd think and it is holding up after about 4 or 5 long hard rides. I can use a floor pump to fill the tire if I want because the seal is so good. I am by no means a pro-fatbiker but foam and split tube was how I found tubeless nirvana.

  42. #42
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    I agree with the foam and split tube. Or....or or or, you can get the good 3m tape, basically Stan's rim tape, only wide and badass. I haven't done that, but is way lighter. I love the split tube though, running since last November with multiple mountings with the same tubers using Larry, bud, Nate, and hudu on holy Darryl's.

    Edit: plus, it sounds like you have the method down. I bet if you sliced a tube and stuck it in there you would be all set.

  43. #43
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    Agree with the split tube method- been using it on my clown shoes and bud / larry all through the winter. You avoid all the problems with air leaking through the rim.

    The other thing that really helped was a _powerful_ compressor and a strap around the tire to hold it down. My LBS had an air hose outside the shop like at a gas station, and with that and some soapy water, a few scoops of caffee latex it aired right up. I would have never gotten there with a hand pump or a less forceful compressor.

    Also, I didn't need an adapter for the presta to Scrader fit. Just unscrew the core and slap the compressor hose onto the valve stem, then put your thumb over it until you can screw the core back in.

  44. #44
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Oh yeah the strap. I found that a 29er tube works Perfect for that.

  45. #45
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    Thanks for the tips and encouragement guys. I'm not giving up yet after all!

    I'll pick up a split tube tomorrow and try it with the Knard first. I guess I can't do the trick of using a regular tube to set one side first, so I'll definitely try the strap method.

    It will be fun in 5 or 10 years to remember all the shenanigans we had to do to go tubeless...

  46. #46
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    Teton29er, I'll meet you show you what I do. I'll be using my fatty bear hunting near Victor next week.

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    So easy it wasn't even fun

    Just to follow up, I tried the split tube method and it worked like a charm.

    Sliced open a Qtubes 24x2.1-2.3, put in 3 scoops of stans and aired up with compressor. I didn't pack out the rim with anything, but I did need to use a ratchet strap around the tire to help seat the bead. Hasn't leaked a drop of air!

    Thanks for all the help guys!

  48. #48
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    I'm about ready to give up on tubeless

    Well done. Enjoy!

  49. #49
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    That's what I'm talkin' about!

    Yeah man, glad you got it sorted.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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    By trumpus in forum Wheels and Tires
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    Last Post: 02-07-2012, 11:28 AM

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