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  1. #1
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    The Hub Destroyer Returns In Glorious Victory

    I have destroyed the best of the best....so what is next? Who will be my next victim?

    The Hub Destroyer Returns In Glorious Victory-img_5702.jpg



    preston

  2. #2
    The White Jeff W
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    Damn dude you're hard on equipment. Does anyone make a steel hub shell?
    No moss...

  3. #3
    This place needs an enema
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    That sucks, but it's not the same as killing the drive mechanism.

    Looks like an Onyx? What width, and which rim do you have it laced to? Spoke bends look harsh from that angle.
    Handbuilt wheels: www.LaceMine29.com

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    That sucks, but it's not the same as killing the drive mechanism.
    How dare you question the Hub Destroyers ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Looks like an Onyx? What width, and which rim do you have it laced to? Spoke bends look harsh from that angle.
    The Hub Destroyer shall let the hub remain Onyxmous. It is a 197mm hub laced to a Nextie Gen II 90mm rim. There is slight damage around the nipple hole in the rim from when the spokes jammed into the brake disc and locked up my rear wheel.

  5. #5
    Oslo, Norway
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    Test the American Classic hub.
    Espen Wethe
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  6. #6
    This place needs an enema
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    Test the American Classic hub.

    Tee hee.

    Jon, what did Onyx say when you called?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Tee hee.
    Is this hub you speak of worthy of such consideration?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Jon, what did Onyx say when you called?
    I don't know who this onyx is that you speak of, but it just happened a few hours ago. They have not responded yet. Wheel was laced at bikeman.

  8. #8
    All fat, all the time.
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    Have you ran the DT Swiss yet? I remember you killed a Hope fatsno already.
    Too bad King hasn't made a fatty hub.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    Have you ran the DT Swiss yet? I remember you killed a Hope fatsno already.
    I have killed Hope twice, 907, I9, and now this one. Have not tried DT Swiss


    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    Too bad King hasn't made a fatty hub.
    Even though I could not afford it, I have told King numerous times I will pay for a one off King 197mm hub. They said no. Only rear hub I can depend on it seems.

  10. #10
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    Time for an Origin8 or Novatec.
    Jason
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  11. #11
    All fat, all the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I have killed Hope twice, 907, I9, and now this one. Have not tried DT Swiss




    Even though I could not afford it, I have told King numerous times I will pay for a one off King 197mm hub. They said no. Only rear hub I can depend on it seems.
    DT Swiss is supposed to be pretty bomb proof, not crazy expensive either. Worth a look.
    You know, it might just take time (CK fat).....I asked trek about a fat ex9 back in '12. They said no. Look what they are finally doing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    There is slight damage around the nipple hole in the rim from when the spokes jammed into the brake disc and locked up my rear wheel.
    So was there a spoke issue, or is the flange failure ultimately the root cause?

  13. #13
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    Clearly, it is the user, if he kills all the hubs he rides, no hub is gonna stand up to the Shonda!

    Maybe you can get someone to machine an SS hub body for the Onyx guts?

  14. #14
    Jammin' Econo
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    All hail the hub destroyer!!

    I dream of a day when my children will live in a world without the shackles of cause and effect.” - S. Colbert

  15. #15
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    Just trundling along a gentle firebreak...

  16. #16
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    clearly you need to do something else for fun.. like maybe lumberjack competitions, or maybe change the way you ride a bike..

  17. #17
    gone walk about
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    sumpin ain't right.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  18. #18
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    If you have not yet tried DT then what are we supposed to say? In this case the buyer is also the rider....so lets call all this rider error! :-)

  19. #19
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    Uh...try a dt 350 and then get back to us, all ill say is good luck.
    Fatbike, XC bike, Gravel Bike....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffw-13 View Post
    Damn dude you're hard on equipment. Does anyone make a steel hub shell?
    Strangely I was thinking about that the other day.

    It's not as if steel hubs have to be heavy, I have some that are as light as good quality alloy (decent vintage road stuff), and when you look at the width of fat hubs, steel may actually be a better material especially if a large diameter centre was used.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
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  21. #21
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    Damn, I pick up my new Borealis wheel set with the 197mm Onyx hub tomorrow...Hope I am fortunate enough to avoid similar fate.

    I've never destroyed one in the spoke flange as you have, but I've torn the guts out of everything I've tried including an older DT Swiss/HUGI hub three times. After a bunch of research, I decided to go with Onyx for the sprag clutch hoping to avoid any more walk outs...but now you've got me a little worried.

    I expect them to stand behind their product with the prices they charge.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Is this hub you speak of worthy of such consideration?
    American Classic had major issues (when made by Chin Haur) until approx 2005, but have held up very, very well since that.
    The AC fatbike hub is the only fatbike hub that we have not had issues with on our production bikes.
    I have put mine through some serious stress. Hours upon hours upon hours of climbing very, very steep stuff in the 26/42 with resulting massive chain tension.
    Basically straight up the sides of mountains with the sandstone like grip of 5.6's at 0.5psi. Spent Easter last year doing that for 35 hours or so.
    On many occasions, on long stretches of mountainside so steep that I could barely turn the 26/42 gear standing out of the saddle, I expected the ratchet mechanism to blow apart, but it has held up beautifully.
    I have met with Bill Shook (AC founder) many times, and he definitely knows what is going on inside the hubs (same cannot be said for many of the other hub engineers that I have met with)
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  23. #23
    Harmonius Wrench
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    I agree that the AC mechanism is robust, but it doesn't have very good "engagement speed", shall we say? If it is their classic cam design, the degree of rotation before engagement is going to turn a lot of people off.

    But otherwise I have seen no issues running my AC hub single speed on my 29"er.
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  24. #24
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    You did it again

    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  25. #25
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    I had a circa 2008 American Classic hubset. I never had any issue with the engagement but I did brake the rear disk side flange. The hub had a pretty easy life on an XC bike and I'm typically not a hub destroyer. I got no response from America Classic so I threw it in the trash, laced in a DT Swiss 240 and never looked back.

  26. #26
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    I'm confused as to how you guys do this. I have to believe you're (no offense) 300 pounds and enjoy stand-up granny-gearing on 30% slopes for hours in 0 degree weather on 2XL tires at 1 psi.

  27. #27
    gone walk about
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I have destroyed the best of the best....so what is next? Who will be my next victim?
    help Mr Wizard!!
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  28. #28
    All fat, all the time.
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    Shot in the dark, have you tried a different wheel builder?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    American Classic had major issues (when made by Chin Haur) until approx 2005, but have held up very, very well since that.
    The AC fatbike hub is the only fatbike hub that we have not had issues with on our production bikes.
    I have put mine through some serious stress. Hours upon hours upon hours of climbing very, very steep stuff in the 26/42 with resulting massive chain tension.
    Basically straight up the sides of mountains with the sandstone like grip of 5.6's at 0.5psi. Spent Easter last year doing that for 35 hours or so.
    On many occasions, on long stretches of mountainside so steep that I could barely turn the 26/42 gear standing out of the saddle, I expected the ratchet mechanism to blow apart, but it has held up beautifully.
    I have met with Bill Shook (AC founder) many times, and he definitely knows what is going on inside the hubs (same cannot be said for many of the other hub engineers that I have met with)
    If he's broken all the big name fat bike hubs, and you're suggesting he build with your hubs because your hubs are so much stonger, I call bullpuckye.

    If I was Shonda, I'd get a machinist or even Onyx, to make an SS hub body, then move along.

    Of course if you make the flanges stronger, that will cause the stressors to shift elsewhere.

    So John, do you ever break off teeth on your cogs or chainrings? How about broken chains, cranks, or BBs?

    I ran Onyx on a mountain tandem, they're tough.

    Maybe Shonda is like the Chuck Norris of mountain biking?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    If he's broken all the big name fat bike hubs, and you're suggesting he build with your hubs because your hubs are so much stonger, I call bullpuckye.
    Hmm, didn't know that I owned stock in the American Classic company, but I learn something new every day
    I run them on my own bikes and I ran them on the high end models of the Diamant and Nakamura brands.
    Our test riders blew apart pretty much anything under the sun, including the hip brands. Especially when the bikes were still QR.
    The record was less than 10 minutes from unused to destruction (early QR Novatec). Many others (including the expensive) brands did not last more than a couple of days to a few weeks.
    Our main test rider actually became known internally as the Destroyer (well, actually the German word for destroyer) at one of the major hub companies that we helped developing fatbike hubs for.

    The engagement mechanism on the AC works very well, here is some info, including a video by none other than Bob Roll:
    Enduro Mag ? Inside the freehub of an American Classic MTB disc hub

    That said, it seems that the engagement mechanism of Jons current hubs stands up the the abuse, and that the hub shell is the current issue, and that could happen on other hubs with strong internals, including AC.
    Espen Wethe
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  31. #31
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    looks like 2 cross on the spokes? broken flange? i'd echo Shark and consider discussing the situation with a different wheel builder - not to say the one you use or if you build yourself is not good - i'd get a second opinion though. Mikesee, here, would be an obvious choice.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiro11 View Post
    I'm confused as to how you guys do this. I have to believe you're (no offense) 300 pounds and enjoy stand-up granny-gearing on 30% slopes for hours in 0 degree weather on 2XL tires at 1 psi.
    And what's wrong with that?

  33. #33
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    All the same failure mode, all the same wheelbuilder? Considering how generally rare that type of failure is, and how generally decent quality the hubs used so far, are, yeah, you might want to try a different builder.

    Just a casual observation, looks like a lot of crust around the elbow and in the hole, you do a lot of salt riding? If so, rinsing better or starting to, can only help too.
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  34. #34
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    Different wheel builder for both of my hub shell failures. My last builder was bikeman (aka carver bikes), I went with them cuz they had experience w/ nextie rims. I told them I wanted the strongest wheelset possible.

    Yes there is salt on the bike, it rides on my 1up rack on the back of my truck. Salt only does harm when it gets wet....so washing my bike isn't done often in winter.

    The is the first failure in the field according to the hub manufacturer, and they have been very awesome with customer service.

    I did question the need for the cutouts in the nds hub flange, and they noted I could have a custom hub made w/o the cutouts or switch to a centerlock hub, which has no cutouts. A custom hub is 3-4 week lead time, but it would be cool.

    I was giving them shit about how the only hub I have never had issues with is my Chris Kings, and he told me they use the exact same material and supplier as CK. But I countered with the factopper CK doesn't but cutouts into the flanges, and he said they us different machining methods to reduce weight that aren't available due to there hub mech.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Different wheel builder for both of my hub shell failures. My last builder was bikeman (aka carver bikes), I went with them cuz they had experience w/ nextie rims. I told them I wanted the strongest wheelset possible.

    Yes there is salt on the bike, it rides on my 1up rack on the back of my truck. Salt only does harm when it gets wet....so washing my bike isn't done often in winter.

    The is the first failure in the field according to the hub manufacturer, and they have been very awesome with customer service.

    I did question the need for the cutouts in the nds hub flange, and they noted I could have a custom hub made w/o the cutouts or switch to a centerlock hub, which has no cutouts. A custom hub is 3-4 week lead time, but it would be cool.

    I was giving them shit about how the only hub I have never had issues with is my Chris Kings, and he told me they use the exact same material and supplier as CK. But I countered with the factopper CK doesn't but cutouts into the flanges, and he said they us different machining methods to reduce weight that aren't available due to there hub mech.
    Good to hear that the manufacturer is working with you. I don't think it matters that they are using the same material and supplier as CK. It's what you do with that material that matters, and the fact that CK doesn't make a fatbike hub. CK also machines everything in house, all the way down to their bearings, so can keep very fine control over tolerances and such. The stresses on fat bike hubs are much higher than standard hubs. When a manufacturer just takes their standard hub and widens it, problems will arise, depending on how overbuilt their normal hubs are. Lateral stresses in particular are exponentially higher on a 190mm hub vs. a 135mm hub.

  36. #36
    turtles make me hot
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    I've also ruined a few hubs/ cassettes/ drivers but nothing like jonshonda. I bow to the master of disaster.
    Lately, I've been on Hopes. My 907 is a 197 thru axle frame. I currently have three sets of wheels. After a few different failures, I seem to have scienced out what works for me.
    On my 100mm rims shod with a 4.8 Knard on the rear wheel, I was climbing like a mountain goat. The bike started shifting badly. Upon inspection, I found I had stretched the rivets on my cassette because my 24 tooth granny ring was putting me on the fourth cog which only had 5 rivets. I also "wrinkled" the alloy Hope driver.
    The LBS guys had never seen that before.
    Shimano warrantied the cassette and I upgraded to a steel driver. I also swapped my granny to a 26 tooth to put me on the next cog ring with six rivets. Everything seems to be staying together now, but I divide my riding between the three wheelsets so I can't be sure how much longer everything is lasting.
    I completely ruined a 907 (Chosen) hub before these Hopes. I've never ruined a flange though.
    I like turtles

  37. #37
    turtles make me hot
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantTurd View Post
    And what's wrong with that?
    Really, Man... What's the problem?
    I like turtles

  38. #38
    turtles make me hot
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    I like turtles

  39. #39
    Human Test Subject
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    You make me feel better about all the weird things I break.

  40. #40
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    What were you doing when the hub cracked? Cranking up a hill? Landing a jump or JRA

  41. #41
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    i'm kind of surprised at some of the thoughts re fat bike hubs being more of an issue, as my un-educated guess would have been that a fat bike hub would have seen *less* stress than a normal width hub.

    the triangulation is massive so stiffness of the wheel as a whole is not an issue if built well to good tension and in this instance, i would not expect a particular difference with the spokes detensioning (which as i understand it, is a risk for flange stress - when the hub is hanging from just a few spokes, rather than pulling on all of them all the time).

    of course under drive you have to have a stiff enough tube between the flanges to turn the non drive side of the wheel - but with a big ol' flobby tyre rolling around i cant imagine the force differential there being excessive....

    the bearings have a wide stance on the axle and the stays to rear hub forms a solid triangle as well...

    am i missing something?

    i know nextie tend to recommend very high tension max. i never push to that sort of tension as i dont see any real benefit over 100kgf (see wheel fanatyk for thoughts on this...) - worth thinking about.

  42. #42
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    I am the ying to your yang. 5,000 km on the original Fatboy 2014 Hub, that everyone one broke. I am probably 20kg lighter. Lots of salt, beaches work though. I wash after every beach ride

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    Hmm, didn't know that I owned stock in the American Classic company, but I learn something new every day
    I run them on my own bikes and I ran them on the high end models of the Diamant and Nakamura brands.
    Our test riders blew apart pretty much anything under the sun, including the hip brands. Especially when the bikes were still QR.
    The record was less than 10 minutes from unused to destruction (early QR Novatec). Many others (including the expensive) brands did not last more than a couple of days to a few weeks.
    Our main test rider actually became known internally as the Destroyer (well, actually the German word for destroyer) at one of the major hub companies that we helped developing fatbike hubs for.

    The engagement mechanism on the AC works very well, here is some info, including a video by none other than Bob Roll:
    Enduro Mag ? Inside the freehub of an American Classic MTB disc hub

    That said, it seems that the engagement mechanism of Jons current hubs stands up the the abuse, and that the hub shell is the current issue, and that could happen on other hubs with strong internals, including AC.
    I realize that. But you're in the industry and you were shilling, so I called it.

    You need to be honest, esp as an engineer, to say that one hub maker has a stronger flange than all other major high end brands, that's ridiculous. John destroys internals as well. You need to follow his hub destruction pattern.

    Destroying a Novatec isn't even worth mentioing, that's childplay.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Yes there is salt on the bike, it rides on my 1up rack on the back of my truck. Salt only does harm when it gets wet....so washing my bike isn't done often in winter.
    When in doubt, look at environmental factors.

    Never in a million years would I carry my bike on a rear rack in the winter, the salt plume created as you drive is insane.

    I carried this torch in another thread, some sided with me, others did not. One guy had to eat his words when he, doing the same as you, had a catastrophic hub failure as the thread was going on.....

    I don't want to come off as pedantic, just saying, if you want a solution, time to look at all the behaviors and factors. If I get salt on my bike, a nice, long, gentle, hot water bath is always the first priority as soon as I get back home. I don't see failures, or corrosion nor do others who follow the same regimen.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiantTurd View Post
    And what's wrong with that?
    No judgment, I'm just making the point that this must be caused by a fairly extreme combination of factors. I've got several thousand fairly rough miles on the notoriously assplosion-prone Novatec without issue and people here are totally destroying $500 "bombproof" hubs. I've ridden a variety of bikes since the eighties including many years of both MTB and road racing without seeing anything close to the picture above. It's just out of my realm of experience.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post

    You need to be honest, esp as an engineer, to say that one hub maker has a stronger flange than all other major high end brands, that's ridiculous. John destroys internals as well. You need to follow his hub destruction pattern.
    Where did I say that one brand has a stronger flange than all other major high end brands?
    Espen Wethe
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post

    Never in a million years would I carry my bike on a rear rack in the winter, the salt plume created as you drive is insane.
    True.
    At the back, especially of a station wagon or similar type of car that generates a low pressure area at its tail, the bike gets absolutely saturated with a fine, salty mist. Had the alloy nipples of one bike literally fall apart after one such ride at the back. (They had been fine for 2 seasons of riding and carrying the bike on top of the car ).
    If it can't be carried inside the car, put the bike on a roof rack and keep a decent distance to the car in front (avoid tailgating trucks) and it is amazing how salt free the bike will stay, even on roads absolutely drenched in salt, like over here (from late October to well into April)
    Espen Wethe
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  48. #48
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    Let's get along now ladies!! Espen didn't come across as shilling when he detailed his experience w/ AC imho. He was just providing feedback.

    Regarding the forces placed on fat bike hubs vs standard width hubs, you need to understand the added amount to or rotational mass and extra grip of these massive tires, as well as the braking capabilities. All of these put more stress on bearings and hubs. The further from center you mount bearings the more leverage is applied to those bearings. If I were to build my own rear hub, I would either increase the size of the bearings, or double the amount. I would also NEVER let weight weenies take material out of the flange....just uncalled for.

    I have broke two XT cassettes too, the carriers just break at the rivet.

    Regarding the salt....I'm not too worried about it but do plan on making wheels covers in the near future.

  49. #49
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    Yep, wheel covers is a good idea.
    Stress corrosion cracking is an issue in a salty environment:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_corrosion_cracking

    Micro cracks forming from heavy tension loads in the areas of highest stress (like around the spoke holes and flange cutouts). Cracks that would probably not cause any issue in a fairly corrosion free environment. However, add a corrosive element to the equation, in this case road salt (and the additional cr..p they add to it) and voila. Problems.
    Espen Wethe
    Bicycle Engineering Consultant
    Norway
    https://fat-bike.com/2016/06/diamant...an-pennington/

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dRjOn's Avatar
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    Feb 2004
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    i know some shimano hubs went through a phase of cracking along the freehub body and hopes had a habbit of cracking along the hub body out to the flange recently - ive had both happen to me.

    as for the bearings being further from centre - i can understand if that is one bearing but within reason (and we are talking about 55mm here) and with generally (at least) 2 bearings in a hub shell does that still hold? afterall, hubs generally have issues if the bearing stance is too *narrow* and a large radius lever and force is being applied. the distance from the frame to the bearing on each side is the same and the increased stance (wider triangle) should promote rigidity. could this transfer more force to the bearings? i'm not sure...its an interesting thought.

    traction IS high - but at the same time the flex from the tyres must mitigate some force transfer....

    hopefully it is clear enough that i'm genuinely interested in this - not trying to score points!

    fwiw, i have about 9 sets of DT swiss hubs on the go --- 350's, big rides, 440's 240s of varying widths and types and some old school 340's and the only issue i have ever had with them over the last decade is a 240 front that cracked around the flange after the bike fell off an uplift truck in Rotorua and was dragged up a hill with the front wheel leveraged in a contraption to hold the bike on the trailer, putting massive force on the wheel.

    i'd echo some others on this thread and ime at least, DT are ne plus ultra.
    Last edited by dRjOn; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:05 AM.

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