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  1. #1
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    Help Me Build My Bucksaw.

    aFATionados:

    I am hereby soliciting your valuable, knowledgeable assistance.

    Seems that ever since the Bucksaw and Bluto news hit at Sea Otter, I've spent a lot of anxious nights lying awake, staring at the ceiling. We're clearly experiencing the next fatbike evolutionary plateau, and I don't want the train to leave the station without me aboard (if you love how I mixed metaphors just now, you are seriously welcome to give me rep. Or not. ) I pretty much immediately set about moving my trusted friend and companion on many a once-in-a-lifetime adventures, my 2012 9:Zero:7, into the hands of a dude whom I trust and who I trust will dig experiencing this whole "mania", from the first minute he swings his leg over the rad beast. Done.

    The next, intensely agonizing decision was which platform to settle on: One of many hardtail scenarios, or the lone full-sus option. Not sure why it took me so long to sort this out, but from the title of the thread, you should be able to figure out where I landed.

    Now that I am all in the Bucksaw, I am totally ALL IN. Trouble is, I'm not super crazy about either of the 2 stock builds. So I'm gonna do my own build.

    I'm a chump who has succumbed to the American Dream of working too much, and has therefore not maintained a solid enough connection with this rad and highly-informative forum. I have fallen behind, and that's clearly a me-problem, I get it. I'll try to do my due diligence via the (lame?, sorry MTBR) MTBR seach engine and not to ask too many stupid questions, but I am sure I will have my moments.

    On the flipside, one benefit of succumbing to the American Dream of working too much is that I have not had time lately to spend money on anything bike, and have therefore had the opportunity to save and put together a tidy nest egg for this bike.

    I've been in touch via PM with Shark, arguably this forum's most noteworthy full-sus fatbike proponent, because we live in the same general neighborhood. Given how in-demand the frame-only option may be, I wanted to make sure I was coordinating with his efforts and so I pre-ordered my frame today through the same LBS that he ordered his through. Oy, the power of the fatbike forum. "Strength in numbers!" And all that happy krap.

    So the initial deed is done, and my course is set.

    So where do YOU come in?

    Well, your job is to not let this chump screw it up.

    I've spent a bunch of time trying to boil it down to some basic criteria, and I think I'm as close as I'm gonna get:

    Budget: $6K
    Must haves: Bluto, dropper post, under 30 Lbs complete bike, without pedals.

    That's it.

    Yes, it's a tall challenge and I doubt that I can make it, but that's my goal. I'm negotiable on just about every other aspect. Wheels (and their weight and cost) are going to be a humungous decision point, obviously. I'm a big fan of mikesee and his contribution to the forum, and I've never done business with him before and would like to, so will be contacting him shortly about his thoughts on the wheelset.

    One of my pet peeves about weight discussions on this forum is that frame size isn't listed, in the majority of cases.

    Size matters, gentlemen. You know it, I know it.

    Everything in this thread is based on size Large, I am proud to announce.

    So that is my introduction.

    And with that, the next piece of my puzzle, and the first question I have for you, is about the fork. Where are you guys/gals going for your Blutos and what are you paying? I am not about jerking around and chiselling vendors, I hate that garbage. But I am about challenging suppliers to compete in the marketplace, because that's what I have to do every day. So what say you all, on the Bluto?

  2. #2
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    $6k budget? That simplifies things. Buy the most expensive everything.

    Any shop can order the bluto for you. I got mine from cycle haven in New York because they had some in stock.

    I recommend :
    race face next sl cranks using a spiderless narrow wide chainring, clearly the best crankset ever sold for any type of bike.
    Easton haven stem and carbon bars, both with the new 35mm clamp diameter. Why? Because they're light and strong. And because 6k.

  3. #3
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    dfiler, thanks. I hear ya, 6K sounds like a lot, until you start trying to get light.

    For example:

    2050 - frame, including tax
    750 - fork, including tax
    500 - Race Face Next SL crankset
    2000? - Carbon wheelset & tires
    350? - Dropper post
    200? - Easton bars and stem
    150? - BB & Headset

    So I just burned through my whole 6K, but I still don't have the rest of my drivetrain, so I can't ride. Which is probably a good thing, because I can't stop, since I don't have brakes.

    Getting the best weight value for my money with both the wheelset and drivetrain is going to be key, obviously.

  4. #4
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    Oh yeah, I had forgotten how expensive the frame is and about the lack of cheap carbon 27.5+ carbon options. Looks like you're going to have to sell a kidney.

  5. #5
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    I would definitely talk to mikesee about the wheelset. When I ordered mine from him for a dirt oriented fat bike, he didn't think any of the carbon rims had proven themselves. I went with Marge Lites. I have a pair of 27.5 x 40mm Derby rims that I really like, but I don't think that any of the fat carbon rims really stand out as the ones to get at the moment. But I would talk to him, things are changing.

  6. #6
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    Welnic, thanks. I'll definitely talk to him. One of the things that works to my advantage, I think, is that the frame won't be available until Fall, which gives me some time to see how things shake out with some of the newer rims that are just hitting the market.

  7. #7
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    I've been thinking about similar build goals here and there over the past few months. Namely frame set build, 30lb or less in mind. Haven't put pen to paper, but damn, you don't think it can be done for $6k?


    Anybody dissect the weight of a Bucksaw 1? That's $5k, so the $1k difference plus selling some new takeoffs might be the way to go.

  8. #8
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    I'd wait as long as possible to buy parts because new stuff is coming out. Specifically, new Whisky carbon rims and true tubeless tires from 45NRTH, the new modular (Next-ish) RaceFace Turbine crank, cheaper versions of Sram 11 speed groups, etc.

  9. #9
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    OP: The prices you are listing are retail, which will be much less if you are patient and search out the best deals on the internet. I never pay retail and neither should you. I believe Mikesee had a Bluto fork for sale for a great price, I know you can get the Next crank for less and the only thing you will pay retail for is probably the frame because it is new and highly sought after.

    You will love the full susp fatbike, I have been riding a 6" travel lunchbox I converted to fat a few years ago and it still amazes me how plush and fun it is. Enjoy.

    -Nolan

  10. #10
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    6K or 30 lbs, pick one....

    This can be a tricky space. In some cases, I've taken a bike as it was built, in other cases, I built it out part by part. My builds did not cost full retail, but if I had taken a stock build it would have been MUCH cheaper.

    I don't have bike shop connections, so I end up paying higher prices than most bike folks. I use Universal Cycles as they have a great selection, pretty good prices, and I've dealt with them personally, and they are a no BS org. Using a VIP15 discount code, helps.

    I've never done it, but you MIGHT find a lightly used, higher end mountain bike that you could steal parts from. You'll need a fatty crankset and chances are you'll build wheels anyway so you could CL those parts you don't use.

    6K is good budget, but you're right, once you start down the path, it will burn fast. I think you can do wheels for less than 1500, as it looks like the Carbon Nextie's are getting sorted. I think an XT drivetrain (and some Hope Stoppers that don't use Mineral Oil) are THE best for a fat bike. My BG has X9, so far so good.

    I think it unreasonable to get that bike sub 30 for 6K, so you might decide how your balance your budget with a weight goal. I would spend your 6K and weight be whatever. It will ride nice and be fun.

    Here is how I would build it based upon the parts I like of have researched in this space.

    Frame - Bucksaw - $2100
    Fork - Bluto - $675
    Headset - Don't remember - $50
    Carbon HBars - I like Easton, Race Face, Thomson - $150
    Grips - I like ODI or OURY - $20
    Nice Stem - Same as HBars? - $100
    Burley Brakes - In this application Hopes Tech3 V4 (dual pistons) - $170 set (x2)
    Solid Drivetrain (FD, RD, Cassette, Crank, BB, Chain) - I like a lower range of a 2x10, so Shimano XT? - $1500?
    Carbon Wheels - Hubs, Rims, Spokes, Nipples, Labor? - Hopes, NexTie, DTSwiss, DTSwiss - $1500?
    Light Tires - Vee makes some light rubbers, that are like 91 each. - $180
    Tubeless Rim Strips - Orange Sealed - $30
    Valve Stems - Stans - $15
    Nice Seat Post (Same as HBars or Stem, perhaps?) - $100
    Whatever Seat Post Clamp - Whatever - $20
    Whatever Saddle - Depends, I exclusively use Selle Italia, have for 25 years - $75
    Dropper - $400 easy
    Pedals - Depends, Crank Bros Egg Beaters, cheap and pretty durable - $75

    No tax, no shipping, no 5:30PM runs to the bike shop to get something you blew or forgot.

    That's $7030, regular seat post
    7330, dropper seat post, cheaper carbon wheels
    7830, nicer carbon wheels

    )

  11. #11
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    I'm all about buy local but if your local shop won't cut you a little bit of a break on a big package buy remember Universal Cyclist and VIP15 code can be your very best friend on purchases over 300 clams.

  12. #12
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    I might have been mentioning it the most haha, but props go out to the guys here that have modified their own frames to get the squish early on when everyone says it's not needed.

    Actually putting $$ numbers gets scary when building a bike, I prefer to keep my head in the sand and not worry about it. That being said, I am trying my best to be a cheap-ass about it where I can.

    Last year's Easton EC70 carbon bars can be found online for $65 or so if you are OK with 685mm length.
    I had Jenson price-match a Sram X9 clutch RD for $83. I believe non-clutch type can be found a bit cheaper. They also matched a Loaded amxc stem for $64.

    I am also looking at the raceface nextSL fat cranks. Every now & again Outside outfitters has them on sale for $357 (not including chainring ($60) & BB)

    The dropper post will add some weight & cost for sure. I am swapping mine across from my 9zero7, once you ride with one out here, it's almost impossible to go back. I can honestly say, I do not notice the extra weight from adding the dropper compared to a relatively light Raceface next seatpost.

    The fork can also be found cheaper. If Mikesee/Lacemine29 still has the bluto that was a great deal. I picked up a set of Hudu's from him last week, great deal.
    He'll be the one to build my rear wheel most likely, his prices seem very fair.

    Don't forget about ebay. I found my X0 grip shifter for $72 lightly used....everywhere online were closer to $125 from what I saw.

    Also great place to find pedals & seats.

    Edit:
    Forgot, Chainreaction cycles out of the UK had XT 10 speed cassettes for $46 shipped no tax.

  13. #13
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    Jeez, thank you, guys, for the quality of your feedback. I'm way past the end of my day and totally gassed, but my head is spinning and I have lots to say about all your suggestions and comments. Replies are forthcoming.

    This discussion is better than I was hoping for. Again, thanks.

  14. #14
    turtles make me hot
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    Here's my suggestion... Bang for the buck and reasonably light for less.
    Marge Lites on Hopes laced with DT Supercomps. Raceface Cinch crankset set up with a 28 tooth (or whatever works for you) and X9 or X0 shifter with a ten speed rear derailleur, XT cassette and that new Absolute Black 28-40 cassette adapter.
    XT brakes.
    I like turtles

  15. #15
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    You can get a Bluto from Universal for a lot less than that using their monthly discount code (let me know if you need it).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Welnic View Post
    I would definitely talk to mikesee about the wheelset. When I ordered mine from him for a dirt oriented fat bike, he didn't think any of the carbon rims had proven themselves. I went with Marge Lites. I have a pair of 27.5 x 40mm Derby rims that I really like, but I don't think that any of the fat carbon rims really stand out as the ones to get at the moment. But I would talk to him, things are changing.
    I think he's been a little behind on the tubeless game, and this comment was written yesterday, literally and figuratively. There are several good carbon rims available right now and Marge Lites don't even belong in the same discussion.

  17. #17
    All fat, all the time.
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    You described my plan almost exactly.....went with the 42T wolftooth cog though.
    /paranoid.....

    Quote Originally Posted by NYrr496 View Post
    Here's my suggestion... Bang for the buck and reasonably light for less.
    Marge Lites on Hopes laced with DT Supercomps. Raceface Cinch crankset set up with a 28 tooth (or whatever works for you) and X9 or X0 shifter with a ten speed rear derailleur, XT cassette and that new Absolute Black 28-40 cassette adapter.
    XT brakes.

  18. #18
    turtles make me hot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shark View Post
    You described my plan almost exactly.....went with the 42T wolftooth cog though.
    /paranoid.....
    Great minds think alike.
    I like turtles

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bme107 View Post
    I've been thinking about similar build goals here and there over the past few months. Namely frame set build, 30lb or less in mind. Haven't put pen to paper, but damn, you don't think it can be done for $6k?


    Anybody dissect the weight of a Bucksaw 1? That's $5k, so the $1k difference plus selling some new takeoffs might be the way to go.
    bme107, great idea. I think it makes a lotta sense to take a hard look at the Bucksaw 1 build as a point of reference, so that's what I've done below. I get the sense that Salsa has put some pretty serious effort into this package in terms of offering a very reasonable weight at a very reasonable price for the first full-sus fat on the market. Based on what I can tell, a Bucksaw 1 size L is gonna weigh about 33-1/2 lbs out of the box. Taking it tubeless might get you to 32-1/2, or so. And these numbers are still slightly slanted towards the wishful thinking direction, I think, but hopefully not by much.

    A couple of notes:

    1. There's no info available online for the frame weight, that I can find. I wouldn't expect there to be, at this point. So my point of reference was the Horsethief, since it has the same suspension, and is kinda the skinnier version of the Bucksaw, in my mind. Then I added 10% (probably low). That put the frame weight at 7.3 lbs. Even with carbon seatstays, I think people are being unrealistic if they are expecting some super light frame. It's a full-sus fatbike frame, for gawdsakes! It ain't gonna be a feather.

    2. I've built Surly Lite tubes into the equation. Even the lite version is pretty chunky, but the bike is gonna come with tubes of some sort. Just remember that you have to add some tape and sealant weight back in when you chuck your tubes. I thought ozziebmx did a great job of capturing this tradeoff in the Nextie rims thread , so I've used that data here, as a basis.


    Feel free to shoot my analysis full of holes, but I think that anyone who is expecting the Bucksaw 1 build to come in close to or under 30 lbs is kidding themselves and that it's gonna take a lotta cash to get there with a custom build. That said, I think 30 lbs is an arbitrary milestone that a lot of people (including me) have their sights set on, that is kind of irrelevant. If my numbers are right, this full-sus fatbike (still pinching myself!) would still be WAY lighter than my 9:Zero:7 rigid, and a whole 'nother game. Considering that my 9:Zero:7 was kinda state of the art a couple years ago, the progression of fatbike technology is pretty amazing. And I think the Bucksaw is gonna be evolutionary. Life is good, fatbikers.

    Help Me Build My  Bucksaw.-bucksaw_wt.png

  20. #20
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    You've got a very reasonable first pass going on there. Thanks for putting in the time!

  21. #21
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    29.9 Lb Bucksaw Build

    Quote Originally Posted by WA-CO View Post
    This can be a tricky space. In some cases, I've taken a bike as it was built, in other cases, I built it out part by part. My builds did not cost full retail, but if I had taken a stock build it would have been MUCH cheaper.

    I think it unreasonable to get that bike sub 30 for 6K, so you might decide how your balance your budget with a weight goal. I would spend your 6K and weight be whatever. It will ride nice and be fun.
    I couldn't agree more. 30 Lbs is a somewhat arbitrary number, and at the end of the day, money is the constraint, and I'll do the best I can with the weight. On the other hand, I do think there's huge difference between a 35 Lb and a 30 Lb fatbike, and 30 is a good goal to shoot for, planning-wise.

    So that's what I've done below, is roughly chart out what kind of money it takes to get sub-30, and then I can start trading dollars for grams to get back to my 6K budget. I used a lot of the suggestions you guys made for components, where it made sense, weight-wise.

    A couple of notes:
    1. Everything revolves around my estimate of 7.3 for the frame weight, obviously. The frame alone could swing the build weight quite a ways either direction.
    2. The cost of the wheels includes components only; there's no build labor, which I need to factor in, because I'm not going to build these myself. And the cost of the Whisky rims is anybody's guess, at this point.
    3. I can shop the components harder when I get everything nailed down, but this was a reasonable effort to go out and look for the lowest prices doing a quick google shopping search. All prices include shipping, but not tax.
    4. I think the first thing I will compromise on is the ridiculously expensive XX1 drivetrain components. I will probably end up going XT 10-sp w/adapter like some of you have suggested, but I needed these to make sub-30.
    5. SRAM brakes are not my preference, but same deal here - in order to make sub-30, I needed them. I'll work with the weight tradeoff going forward.
    6. The crazy light HED rims (445 g) would drop this build to 29.3 Lbs, but take the cost in the wrong direction by probably another $500. That further reduction in rotating weight is pretty appealing, though.


    Help Me Build My  Bucksaw.-bucksaw-build-1-.png

  22. #22
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    Was thinking about a Bluto myself. Good to see you've made your decision

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRider View Post
    Was thinking about a Bluto myself. Good to see you've made your decision
    Man... Spovegas & Rocky Rider back on MTBR... welcome back bros! Cheers!!

    Annual OS Meet is listed down a ways... looking forward to riding/hanging out w/ BOTH of you there!!

  24. #24
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    I was at my LBS and if I remember right the Whiskey rims where coming in at $599 each msrp without much for wiggle room.

  25. #25
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    Hey, ward and RockyRider,

    I hope to make it to the fatbike meet in Sept. No way I'll have a Bucksaw by then, but I will probably borrow a pugs from someone in Spokane. I'll find a way to get by on the beach without full suspension, somehow.

    bdundee, thanks for the info on the Whisky rims. Looks like $400 was pretty wishful thinking, on my part. $599 puts them in the same ballpark as HEDs.

    The rim decision is going to be really interesting. In addition to weight and cost, width is going to be a big consideration on this particular bike, for me. Per Salsa the bike is "Designed for use with 3.8” tires on 82mm, or narrower, rims". And they spec it with 65's on both builds. This is obviously not a fatbike that is designed/optimized for maximum floatation on snow and sand. It's a fatbike that is optimized for summer hardpack riding, while compromising some footprint and float in the soft stuff. Which is where I'm at . . . when I'm daydreaming about riding this bike, I'm descending rocky, rooty singletrack, and plowing through rock gardens. It'll still be plenty fat for what snow and sand riding I do. I think I'm going to want to stay in the 65-70mm range for this, to keep the tire profile more round and to keep the rim more inboard for better strike protection. A few of the choices out there, nice to have so many these days . . .

    445g/$600+/85mm - HED
    575g/$599/70mm - Whisky
    660g/$320/90mm - Nextie
    550g/$550/65mm - Lamere
    649g/$550/80mm - Lamere
    690g/$160/65mm - Marge Lite

  26. #26
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    Nextie said they are going to coming out with a 65mm rim very soon, sub 500g in the $240 ball park.

  27. #27
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    Hadn't heard that! Right on.

  28. #28
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    This will be a great rig for riding in the Quilomene... can you Imagine? (silly question, I know you can!!)

    Did a ride last Sunday that would have been great for a Bucksaw... thought about it allot as I rode...

  29. #29
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    I know right? I think this is my second post this year!


    Quote Originally Posted by ward View Post
    Man... Spovegas & Rocky Rider back on MTBR... welcome back bros! Cheers!!

    Annual OS Meet is listed down a ways... looking forward to riding/hanging out w/ BOTH of you there!!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I think he's been a little behind on the tubeless game
    This is funny.

  31. #31
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    Nerding way the he|| out late on this 4th of July, I know, but just wanted to test my Bucksaw weight formula against something that Salsa guy Kid Riemer posted up back on 4/11*:

    Weight - Bucksaw 1 size Medium pre-production bike that we have at Sea Otter weighed in today by BikeRadar at 32 lbs 6 oz.

    That's 32.4 Lbs.

    If I use my Horsethief + 10% frame weight logic and plug it into the spreadsheet, I get this:

    Help Me Build My  Bucksaw.-bucksaw-wt-med.png

    So the bottom line here is that I came up with 33.3 vs the actual 32.4 and that I've probably been conservative in estimating the Bucksaw frame weight, and that both the M and L #1 builds should come in between 32 and 33 Lbs. IMHO. I've also been conservative in estimating tube weight, at 1.7 Lbs, which is pretty ridiculous. The good news in all of this is that a sub-30# full sus fatbike probably turns out to be very achievable for less than $6K. What's maybe more important is that I can get there without spending massive amounts of cash on the drivetrain and instead pour it into the wheelset, where it will really make a difference.

    I totally get that the value of this thread and my narrow view is limited, b/c of the wide range of perspectives on this forum. 6K is a stupid amount of money to spend on a bike and I don't know what I have in common with those of you who are shopping for $500 fatbikes on BD, except that I am also currently shopping for a different bike in that same price range, with a 5" footprint to play around with and trash on snow, and saltwater beaches.

    BUT:

    I think the Bucksaw is a game changer and I want in, in a very big way. I think that Salsa, in all it's coolness, is WAY ahead of anybody else on what a full suss fatbike is and should be. I think they've done their homework and have gone way progressive, and I want to reward them with my $. I suspect that they will end up rewarding me far more than I will them. What I don't particularly want to do, in this case, is reward any big mfr copycats, who will undoubtedly capitalize on any success that Salsa has. A glimpse of that whole dynamic, from the same post*, here:

    Geometry - We aren’t sharing the bike geometry until later this summer. I’ll be straight up with you…we put a lot of work into this bike and there is nothing to gain from us sharing our numbers with our competitors at this time.

    On a different note, but since the subject has come up on this thread, I think that mikesee has his finger very much on the pulse of both the tubeless and carbon rim topics. I don't think either one are slam dunks. I will be relying on his expertise.

    *The link is here (you have to drill down into the comments to find it):

    Salsa Cycles
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help Me Build My  Bucksaw.-bucksaw-wt-med.png  


  32. #32
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    Hello Spovegas

    I am very happy to help you build your Bucksaw........

    In fact I will build it for you !

    Just send me all the parts and I will carefully and lovingly build the entire bike for you.

    I will then spend time refining the build and ride characteristics by extensive 'in the field' testing which I estimate should take a year or two.

    I will then return the fully built bike to you very nicely 'run in'.

    To take me up on this ' once in a lifetime' offer please reply by PM ASAP.

    Yours most (in)Sincerely,
    Dr FG

    Note:- Extra charges may apply.......
    A Fatback'd Lefty for who life IS a Beach

  33. #33
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    ^^^ I don't have any problems paying $6000 for a bike, as long as it works and also holds up while being used for it's intended purpose.

    I'm still smarting from the $4400 Epic that I bought - then couldn't keep the wheels true, couldn't keep the pos PF30 from creaking, kept bending rear shock bolts cause it would slam through its travel and bottom out (even at high shock psi), etc...

    Who'da thunk that a $4400 Epic couldn't be raced in xc by a 145 lb cat 2 racer without constantly fixing stuff? The $700 Giant Yukon FX (that I built up myself) held up better than the Epic.

    So... $6000 for an awesome fatbike - I would pay that if it's not a constant money pit. I am looking forward to some of you being the test pilots 1st though.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Feelygood ! View Post
    Hello Spovegas

    I am very happy to help you build your Bucksaw........

    In fact I will build it for you !

    Just send me all the parts and I will carefully and lovingly build the entire bike for you.

    I will then spend time refining the build and ride characteristics by extensive 'in the field' testing which I estimate should take a year or two.

    I will then return the fully built bike to you very nicely 'run in'.

    To take me up on this ' once in a lifetime' offer please reply by PM ASAP.

    Yours most (in)Sincerely,
    Dr FG

    Note:- Extra charges may apply.......
    Guess you gotta be careful about what you ask for around here!

    Well played, Dr FG.

  35. #35
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    I'm going to be watching this thread with interest.

    I am keenly interested in a Bucksaw, as well. I'm going to take a different route, however.

    I'm going to start with a stock Bucksaw 2. I've been riding yellow mtb's for 14 years, and I just have to keep that trend going. I am also not thrilled with the build options for either bike. I figure I'll buy the less expensive one off the floor, and replace parts as I go. I'm not a dropper post guy, for one. That will be sold and replaced with a light post. Not sure I'll go carbon here or not. But def lighter than the dropper that comes on the bike. I will also change the bars/stem with something lighter and more along my fit preferences. I don't like super wide bars, so I'll get something narrower.

    I am going to go 1x for the drivetrain, but even with my shop discount, SRAM's 1x11 stuff is out of my budget. I'm going to piece something together with some of the included bits, a RF Cinch crankset with NW ring, and piece together a wider range 10spd cassette.

    I will be saving most weight over a stock build with those items.

    I'm going to be waiting on the wheels, and will probably ride the stock ones for some time before changing. Carbon rims might be in the budget if I wait long enough and save specifically for that wheel build. I just frankly haven't decided here yet, so I'm going to let the market play out a bit, figure out my options, and use the stock rims to start with.

  36. #36
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    I'm following this thread as well with intense interest. I've put a deposit in with my LBS to get a Bucksaw 1 as soon as they are available. I bought a Farley this winter and I'm hooked on fatbiking. I Have a few other bikes, which I am contemplating selling especially when the bucksaw gets here because I'm anticipating being fully FAT at all times. Love the info and the detail in here, especially since there is so little available everywhere!

    One thing I know that I'll want to change out is the wheel setup to carbon/tubeless when there is something I can do complete for under $1000ish.

  37. #37
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    NateHawk and cianide:

    Great to hear what you guys are thinking. No doubt there's a lot to be said for going with the Bucksaw 2 build and upgrading to lighter and better bits at the same time you are riding the krap out of it.

    Looks like one thing we can agree on is that a light, carbon/tubeless wheelset is at the top of our upgrade wish list. Things are happening so fast in carbon rim space that figuring out when to pull the trigger is gonna be tricky. A year from now, the 2016 high-end stock build rumor mill will probably include Whisky rims (as well as other Whisky bits, I would hope). Not sure I'm willing to sell a whole year of waiting, though. One thing's that's for sure is that I'm not gonna get to worked up about figuring out wheels until I have a half-arse idea of when I might have a frame in hand. Which is anybody's guess, right now.

    Salsa guy Kid Riemer wrote this in the same link I posted above:

    Salsa Dealers will be able to start ordering these bikes at the SaddleDrive dealer event this July. Again, the bikes are slated for Fall 2014 delivery.

    The event details are HERE.

    So probably the week before (which is next week), I'll drop by the LBS and wander into a casual conversation about SaddleDrive and see if they'll poke Salsa for an update.

  38. #38
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    The Salsa/QBP rep for my shop is supposed to be paying a visit sometime today, and I've asked the owner to inquire about the Bucksaw for me.

    I haven't heard about anyone from my shop attending that Salsa event, but I'll be paying attention to when ordering starts.

    I'm not necessarily committed to carbon rims, but carbon would certainly get overall bike weight into a competitive category with what I already have. I am equally curious about the Stans tubeless fat rims. But from what I've read, availability on the wider of the two options has no target ATM, and the 50mm are slated to be available in Sept-ish.

    Of course, if I actually manage to land a full-time job at some point relatively soon, I"ll have a little more budget space to get exactly what I want.

  39. #39
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    Apparently the target date is late Sept. as per the Salsa rep on Thurs. The owner didn't think to ask about pre-order dates so I've got no updates on that front, but I'm going to get in on the pre-season ordering, which will help the shop meet terms with Salsa. Funny how I did that last year when I ordered my 2014 Vaya.

    I find the whole press-fit BB world to be royally f'ing confusing. Salsa seems to be labeling things about as correctly as they can, saying the frame takes 41mm press-fit cups. why the hell do so many bb companies (like Race Face) call their fat bike 41mm press-fit bb's BB92? BB92 is supposed to be 92mm wide, and BB92 is SUPPOSED to be for 24mm spindles, even though Race Face is using 30mm. Still, I really like the Turbine Cinch crankset.

    First changes I will make to the stock Bucksaw 2:
    * I see the Bucksaw 2 no longer is spec'd with a Reverb post. It is now a Truvativ T20, at ~270g
    * Replace crankset with RF Turbine Cinch in a 1x configuration, probably a 26t cog. Sell front shifter, front der, and stock crankset.
    * Add OneUp 42/16t cassette range extender
    * Swap Guide R brakes with XT. Sell Guide brakes.

    Down the road:
    * Probably swap out the handlebars. I may like the wider bars, or I may not. But I could certainly drop some weight with carbon bars.
    * Nates would be fine tires for fall/winter riding as conditions get a little softer and less reliable (like with autumn leaf drop and lower evaporation rates, and esp with snow later in the season) but I'll definitely be looking for some less aggressive knobbies for summer hardpack riding for next season. They should be lighter, too.
    * Consider a lighter tubeless wheelset. This will probably be one of the last significant changes I make. If I commit to a carbon wheelset, it'll take me some time to save that kinda cash. Otherwise, it may take awhile for an acceptable aluminum tubeless rim to show up on the market.

    The stock Guide R brakes are 375g according to SRAM.
    Shimano XT are 299g plus 115g for 160mm rotors = 414g for a +39g difference
    Post changed to a Thomson Masterpiece (199g) = -71g

    Based on my math (using the SRAM numbers you posted for X01), an X9 1x10 build with RF cinch cranks would be 93g heavier than spovegas's build, but a weight drop of 546g (1.2lb) from stock. Considering the brake and seatpost changes, the total weight drop would be 578g (almost 1.3lb). Could possibly shave bit more from the handlebars. Change from 3.8 Nates to 3.8 Knards and drop 95g each (nearly half a pound), also.
    Last edited by Harold; 07-13-2014 at 07:25 AM.

  40. #40
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    NateHawk, thanks for feeding this thread with your great info and perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Funny how I did that last year when I ordered my 2014 Vaya.
    ^^^Could you talk a little more about how this went?

    I gotta say, your approach to a custom Bucksaw build has me really thinking, which was exactly the discussion I was looking for when I started this thread. My problem is that I have more money than time right now (not necessarily a good thing since it means that I am working when I should be riding). From that perspective, all the selling off of stock parts is problematic. If I think I'm gonna do this and then never actually do (and my track record ain't great in this area), I'll end up spending eight grand, instead of six. It's a really great plan that you are working on, though. I will be giving it a lot of thought to see if it somehow makes sense for me.

    It's really encouraging to hear that late Sept is the target. It would be just rad to be be able to play with this bike through the fall riding season, before things get frosty, and then frozen and then snowy. With that said, late Sept is like the very BEGINNING of fall (Salsa's stated "delivery season"). I'm not trying to challenge you here, or shoot the messenger or any of that nonsense. But I'm just wondering to myself how they could possibly be able to pull this off. Unless, as hinted at in the Salsa guy comments that I put up a few posts back, they have things well underway and are keeping details super under wraps to thwart the competition. At some point, though, they have to let their dealers know some details, if they want to sell these bikes. My deposit was $100 (I sh!t you not), because my LBS couldn't offer any details and wasn't comfortable taking any more of a deposit. My deposit is really nothing more than just a placeholder and a bit of leverage that the LBS can use to say, "Hey Salsa, we have a customer (two actually, me and Shark) who's put down a deposit." For Salsa and their dealers to go from this level of (non)information to delivering frames/bikes in 2-1/2 months would really surprise me. Anything's possible, I suppose. I think the SaddleDrive event coming up will be pretty telling. If there's not a bunch of information coming out around that event, I'm convinced that we won't have frames/bikes in hand until very late in the year.

    We don't have an LBS here in Spokane, unfortunately, that has really embraced Salsa and their whole gig. Which is unfortunate, because I think Salsa's a really cool and forward-thinking org and I think that Spokane is (just becoming) a big enough market to support such a thing. The one that Shark and I have put our pre-orders in with is maybe the closest here to latching on, because they are really high on the Horsethief.

    And just so my comments above aren't misconstrued, I'm really jacked about the Bucksaw, but I'm not super distraught about getting one in my hands as Soon. As. Is. Humanly. Possible. I'm actualy enjoying the process of thinking the whole thing through and I think that maybe a later delivery might be beneficial in terms of syncing with some of the carbon rim availabilities and proofs-of-workability/durability.

    Luckily, I have the whole bikesdirect frenzy to totally distract me. I'm fatbikeless right now, which is not great, but I have actually come to the twisted point of view that fatbikes are evolving into different sub-species and that I'm not really all that interested in trying to spec out a do-everything fatbike. Which is why I sold my 9:Zero:7. I loved that bike and the fun I had with it, but I feel like I outgrew it and I think I have taken an objective look at how I used it and what I learned from it, and have come to the realization that while it was fun riding it on snow and sand, I had WAY more fun with it on singletrack and adventure biking. So I'd like to optimize my available funds by spending the lions share on a fatbike that rips up trail and off-road adventuring, and spend a fraction of that amount on a second, somewhat disposable bike that has a big footprint for playing in snow and sand.

    Where to put two fatbikes and how to explain all this to my wife? Well, that's a different problem.

    Nate, I couldn't agree with you more on the press-fit BB insanity. I have spent a TON of time on the net trying to sort through this mess and I'm still not sure I have it completely figured out. If it's the next biggest/greatest thing for fatbikes, I'm all for it, but can't we all at least settle on the terminology? A probem inherent with evolution, I suppose. Or not, maybe just ridiculousness?

    Again, thanks man. Really appreciate your thoughts.

  41. #41
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    One of them could always be for your wife to ride and you to "borrow" from time to time

  42. #42
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    Very good point, RockyRider, thanks.

    Impromptu relationship skills clinics.

    One of the many (if not primary) benefits of hanging out on MTBR.

  43. #43
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    A small disclosure: I work at a shop that is also a Salsa dealer. Salsa was a new brand for the shop last fall. I had a commuter with a frame that did not make me excited. Some things about it really pissed me off. I was shopping around for a new frameset when I heard that the owner was considering adding Salsa to the lineup. He was interested in them for mostly touring and gravel stuff. He's trying to build that area of the shop's business, as right now we're mostly a road shop. We don't do a ton of mtb business, but we carry a few Fargos and Mukluks.

    Anyway, when he decided to commit to the brand, he had to put together a minimum order for the season as per his terms with Salsa. Since I knew that I wanted a Vaya by then and I would get it somewhere else if he didn't pick up the brand, he went ahead and added my special order frameset to the shop's preseason order. At that point there really was no other option since we couldn't do one-off special orders until the shop had fulfilled the terms of the deal.

    This time around, it's somewhat of a convenience thing. I am not terribly sure about how the timing of the preseason order will coincide with the Bucksaw availability right now. Maybe Salsa is timing the release of the bike with the 2015 preseason ordering. I just don't know those details, since I wasn't on the schedule to work the day the Salsa rep dropped by. I wish I was, because I hear that he had some catalogs he was showing off. Nothing got left at the shop for perusal later on, which makes me wonder about what details were included.

    I agree that their event is really where we will get a better idea of how things are playing out. Maybe the rep was just giving the "company line" regarding availability and that was more of a goal than anything else. Maybe they have been keeping really tight wraps on the details of this bike so they can have an early lead on the FS fatbike market. You know that some bike companies do little else than poach ideas/designs when they can and would be all over this one.

    As for the bike's intended use, the concept of a do-it-all fatbike, and all that, I get the impression that the Bucksaw would give me a LOT more flexibility than I have now. My spot in the midwest doesn't get feet of snow in the winter. Usually 6-8" at a time is an upper limit with rare instances of more. And usually most of that melts off before more accumulation occurs. It's usually wet, heavy snow. A 2.2-2.4" tire tends to max out somewhere in the neighborhood of 4" depending on the consistency of the snow, before you're doing more pushing than riding. Last winter was odd in that we had several inches consistently for months. My riding got snowed out in about January. A 4" tire should give me significantly more options, and with the Bluto having 5" capacity, it might be worth it to get a wider front tire for winter use. Sand riding isn't a big option here, but it's possible to head up towards Lake Michigan for that sort of thing.

    But this is where the Bucksaw really caught my eye. It is fat enough to extend my winter riding and give me more choices for playing around on new surfaces like sand. But it's really intended to be a summer fat bike, with solid trail geometry. For quite some time I've been bouncing around several different bikes because I have wanted a fat bike for a very long time, yet my FS mtb is getting long in the tooth (11+yrs), I do not have faith that the "lifetime warranty" would do me any good in the event of a frame crack from all those years of hard use (I'd wind up with a longer travel bike built around different wheel diameter, axle, HT, and BB standards so MAYBE my pedals would be able to transfer over?) and that because of that, I ought to buy a new bike anyway. At this point, I'm thinking about just keeping the old bike as a second mtb, or possibly replacing the frame with a steel hardtail, since most of the components bolted onto the bike are MUCH newer.

  44. #44
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    I'll be there next week so will hit you with info starting Monday afternoon.

    Yep full squish PHat is going to be the way forward for me too. Which bike is obviously still way up in the air but if I get to ride one of the Bucksaws I'm sure will be there that might help to sway my decision but I think I'd like to wait for a few more options.

  45. #45
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    NateHawk, thanks for a bunch of great info. Again. Yeah, too bad you missed the Salsa rep. You'd have had some great questions for him.

    gravitylover, that's awesome. Can't wait to hear what you find out.

    Note, for folks following along, "next week' is the week of the 21st, not the 14th.

  46. #46
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    Getting excited.....!...
    We'll have to have a bucksaw trail day I hope to have all my parts waiting one the frame gets here...
    Enjoying the details of your planning so far

  47. #47
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    Shark, yep. The thought of finally getting a Bucksaw frame in hand and then not having the parts on hand to build it up is not a fun thought. So that's my goal, too. Hard to say how the timing will all work out though, in the long run. The wheels are gonna be a big deal . . . so much is happening so fast in that space that pulling the trigger is gonna be a pressure cooker.

  48. #48
    All fat, all the time.
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    I know...
    I went from thinking marge lite, to wait for the Stans, now thinking the nextie 65mm when it's available.....

    Quote Originally Posted by spovegas View Post
    Shark, yep. The thought of finally getting a Bucksaw frame in hand and then not having the parts on hand to build it up is not a fun thought. So that's my goal, too. Hard to say how the timing will all work out though, in the long run. The wheels are gonna be a big deal . . . so much is happening so fast in that space that pulling the trigger is gonna be a pressure cooker.

  49. #49
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    Interesting thread! I've ordered a stock Bucksaw 1, and although weight saving isn't critical, I've seen two quick wins. First off I'll replace the saddle with a lighter (and prettier) Selle Italia SLR XC I've got stashed away. Second, I plan to try to convert the stock wheels to tubeless using this technique:

    I'm thinking about switching out the Nate tyres as well, since I find the rubber compound in these to be too hard for wet roots and rock, both of which we have in plenty supply here in Norway. Vee Rubber's fat tyres with silicone rubber are clear candidates. Possibly the 4.25" marked H-Billie, depending on actual rear tyre clearance on the Bucksaw: H-Billie | VEE Tire Co.

  50. #50
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    I've been talking to RaceFace about the Turbine Cinch and the BB required for the Bucksaw. I've seen the Turbine Cinch listed a couple of different ways. Universal Cycles shows the arms as an option (no rings, spindle, bb, or spider) and as a crankset (rings and spider, but no spindle or bb). QBP has it listed as arms and spindle under a couple options, and then you buy the spider/rings you want and the bb you need.

    It made things a bit ugly with different sites listing it different ways.

    It looks like RF is listing spindles based on what your rear hub spacing is. So for the Bucksaw, you'd get the spindle for 170mm hubs. That one's easy enough. For the BB, it looks like you'd want to get the BB92 bottom bracket with a wider sleeve, or use it without a sleeve (part # BB419230B7). The sleeve needed for the Bucksaw would be sleeve kit (# F10015), which is for 121 and 124mm shells. I suppose this would apply also if you're using the Next SL Cinch crankset. Availability for the Turbine Cinch looks to be Aug 1, and I plan on getting an order submitted ASAP. Steve from RF says they've been fielding lots of fat bike compatibility questions lately, so demand looks like it will be high for these.

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