Help Me Build My Bucksaw.
I am hereby soliciting your valuable, knowledgeable assistance.
Seems that ever since the Bucksaw and Bluto news hit at Sea Otter, I've spent a lot of anxious nights lying awake, staring at the ceiling. We're clearly experiencing the next fatbike evolutionary plateau, and I don't want the train to leave the station without me aboard (if you love how I mixed metaphors just now, you are seriously welcome to give me rep. Or not. ) I pretty much immediately set about moving my trusted friend and companion on many a once-in-a-lifetime adventures, my 2012 9:Zero:7, into the hands of a dude whom I trust and who I trust will dig experiencing this whole "mania", from the first minute he swings his leg over the rad beast. Done.
The next, intensely agonizing decision was which platform to settle on: One of many hardtail scenarios, or the lone full-sus option. Not sure why it took me so long to sort this out, but from the title of the thread, you should be able to figure out where I landed.
Now that I am all in the Bucksaw, I am totally ALL IN. Trouble is, I'm not super crazy about either of the 2 stock builds. So I'm gonna do my own build.
I'm a chump who has succumbed to the American Dream of working too much, and has therefore not maintained a solid enough connection with this rad and highly-informative forum. I have fallen behind, and that's clearly a me-problem, I get it. I'll try to do my due diligence via the (lame?, sorry MTBR) MTBR seach engine and not to ask too many stupid questions, but I am sure I will have my moments.
On the flipside, one benefit of succumbing to the American Dream of working too much is that I have not had time lately to spend money on anything bike, and have therefore had the opportunity to save and put together a tidy nest egg for this bike.
I've been in touch via PM with Shark, arguably this forum's most noteworthy full-sus fatbike proponent, because we live in the same general neighborhood. Given how in-demand the frame-only option may be, I wanted to make sure I was coordinating with his efforts and so I pre-ordered my frame today through the same LBS that he ordered his through. Oy, the power of the fatbike forum. "Strength in numbers!" And all that happy krap.
So the initial deed is done, and my course is set.
So where do YOU come in?
Well, your job is to not let this chump screw it up.
I've spent a bunch of time trying to boil it down to some basic criteria, and I think I'm as close as I'm gonna get:
Must haves: Bluto, dropper post, under 30 Lbs complete bike, without pedals.
Yes, it's a tall challenge and I doubt that I can make it, but that's my goal. I'm negotiable on just about every other aspect. Wheels (and their weight and cost) are going to be a humungous decision point, obviously. I'm a big fan of mikesee and his contribution to the forum, and I've never done business with him before and would like to, so will be contacting him shortly about his thoughts on the wheelset.
One of my pet peeves about weight discussions on this forum is that frame size isn't listed, in the majority of cases.
Size matters, gentlemen. You know it, I know it.
Everything in this thread is based on size Large, I am proud to announce.
So that is my introduction.
And with that, the next piece of my puzzle, and the first question I have for you, is about the fork. Where are you guys/gals going for your Blutos and what are you paying? I am not about jerking around and chiselling vendors, I hate that garbage. But I am about challenging suppliers to compete in the marketplace, because that's what I have to do every day. So what say you all, on the Bluto?
$6k budget? That simplifies things. Buy the most expensive everything.
Any shop can order the bluto for you. I got mine from cycle haven in New York because they had some in stock.
I recommend :
race face next sl cranks using a spiderless narrow wide chainring, clearly the best crankset ever sold for any type of bike.
Easton haven stem and carbon bars, both with the new 35mm clamp diameter. Why? Because they're light and strong. And because 6k.
dfiler, thanks. I hear ya, 6K sounds like a lot, until you start trying to get light.
2050 - frame, including tax
750 - fork, including tax
500 - Race Face Next SL crankset
2000? - Carbon wheelset & tires
350? - Dropper post
200? - Easton bars and stem
150? - BB & Headset
So I just burned through my whole 6K, but I still don't have the rest of my drivetrain, so I can't ride. Which is probably a good thing, because I can't stop, since I don't have brakes.
Getting the best weight value for my money with both the wheelset and drivetrain is going to be key, obviously.
Oh yeah, I had forgotten how expensive the frame is and about the lack of cheap carbon 27.5+ carbon options. Looks like you're going to have to sell a kidney.
I would definitely talk to mikesee about the wheelset. When I ordered mine from him for a dirt oriented fat bike, he didn't think any of the carbon rims had proven themselves. I went with Marge Lites. I have a pair of 27.5 x 40mm Derby rims that I really like, but I don't think that any of the fat carbon rims really stand out as the ones to get at the moment. But I would talk to him, things are changing.
Welnic, thanks. I'll definitely talk to him. One of the things that works to my advantage, I think, is that the frame won't be available until Fall, which gives me some time to see how things shake out with some of the newer rims that are just hitting the market.
I've been thinking about similar build goals here and there over the past few months. Namely frame set build, 30lb or less in mind. Haven't put pen to paper, but damn, you don't think it can be done for $6k?
Anybody dissect the weight of a Bucksaw 1? That's $5k, so the $1k difference plus selling some new takeoffs might be the way to go.
I'd wait as long as possible to buy parts because new stuff is coming out. Specifically, new Whisky carbon rims and true tubeless tires from 45NRTH, the new modular (Next-ish) RaceFace Turbine crank, cheaper versions of Sram 11 speed groups, etc.
OP: The prices you are listing are retail, which will be much less if you are patient and search out the best deals on the internet. I never pay retail and neither should you. I believe Mikesee had a Bluto fork for sale for a great price, I know you can get the Next crank for less and the only thing you will pay retail for is probably the frame because it is new and highly sought after.
You will love the full susp fatbike, I have been riding a 6" travel lunchbox I converted to fat a few years ago and it still amazes me how plush and fun it is. Enjoy.
6K or 30 lbs, pick one....
This can be a tricky space. In some cases, I've taken a bike as it was built, in other cases, I built it out part by part. My builds did not cost full retail, but if I had taken a stock build it would have been MUCH cheaper.
I don't have bike shop connections, so I end up paying higher prices than most bike folks. I use Universal Cycles as they have a great selection, pretty good prices, and I've dealt with them personally, and they are a no BS org. Using a VIP15 discount code, helps.
I've never done it, but you MIGHT find a lightly used, higher end mountain bike that you could steal parts from. You'll need a fatty crankset and chances are you'll build wheels anyway so you could CL those parts you don't use.
6K is good budget, but you're right, once you start down the path, it will burn fast. I think you can do wheels for less than 1500, as it looks like the Carbon Nextie's are getting sorted. I think an XT drivetrain (and some Hope Stoppers that don't use Mineral Oil) are THE best for a fat bike. My BG has X9, so far so good.
I think it unreasonable to get that bike sub 30 for 6K, so you might decide how your balance your budget with a weight goal. I would spend your 6K and weight be whatever. It will ride nice and be fun.
Here is how I would build it based upon the parts I like of have researched in this space.
Frame - Bucksaw - $2100
Fork - Bluto - $675
Headset - Don't remember - $50
Carbon HBars - I like Easton, Race Face, Thomson - $150
Grips - I like ODI or OURY - $20
Nice Stem - Same as HBars? - $100
Burley Brakes - In this application Hopes Tech3 V4 (dual pistons) - $170 set (x2)
Solid Drivetrain (FD, RD, Cassette, Crank, BB, Chain) - I like a lower range of a 2x10, so Shimano XT? - $1500?
Carbon Wheels - Hubs, Rims, Spokes, Nipples, Labor? - Hopes, NexTie, DTSwiss, DTSwiss - $1500?
Light Tires - Vee makes some light rubbers, that are like 91 each. - $180
Tubeless Rim Strips - Orange Sealed - $30
Valve Stems - Stans - $15
Nice Seat Post (Same as HBars or Stem, perhaps?) - $100
Whatever Seat Post Clamp - Whatever - $20
Whatever Saddle - Depends, I exclusively use Selle Italia, have for 25 years - $75
Dropper - $400 easy
Pedals - Depends, Crank Bros Egg Beaters, cheap and pretty durable - $75
No tax, no shipping, no 5:30PM runs to the bike shop to get something you blew or forgot.
That's $7030, regular seat post
7330, dropper seat post, cheaper carbon wheels
7830, nicer carbon wheels
I'm all about buy local but if your local shop won't cut you a little bit of a break on a big package buy remember Universal Cyclist and VIP15 code can be your very best friend on purchases over 300 clams.
I might have been mentioning it the most haha, but props go out to the guys here that have modified their own frames to get the squish early on when everyone says it's not needed.
Actually putting $$ numbers gets scary when building a bike, I prefer to keep my head in the sand and not worry about it. That being said, I am trying my best to be a cheap-ass about it where I can.
Last year's Easton EC70 carbon bars can be found online for $65 or so if you are OK with 685mm length.
I had Jenson price-match a Sram X9 clutch RD for $83. I believe non-clutch type can be found a bit cheaper. They also matched a Loaded amxc stem for $64.
I am also looking at the raceface nextSL fat cranks. Every now & again Outside outfitters has them on sale for $357 (not including chainring ($60) & BB)
The dropper post will add some weight & cost for sure. I am swapping mine across from my 9zero7, once you ride with one out here, it's almost impossible to go back. I can honestly say, I do not notice the extra weight from adding the dropper compared to a relatively light Raceface next seatpost.
The fork can also be found cheaper. If Mikesee/Lacemine29 still has the bluto that was a great deal. I picked up a set of Hudu's from him last week, great deal.
He'll be the one to build my rear wheel most likely, his prices seem very fair.
Don't forget about ebay. I found my X0 grip shifter for $72 lightly used....everywhere online were closer to $125 from what I saw.
Also great place to find pedals & seats.
Forgot, Chainreaction cycles out of the UK had XT 10 speed cassettes for $46 shipped no tax.
Jeez, thank you, guys, for the quality of your feedback. I'm way past the end of my day and totally gassed, but my head is spinning and I have lots to say about all your suggestions and comments. Replies are forthcoming.
This discussion is better than I was hoping for. Again, thanks.
Here's my suggestion... Bang for the buck and reasonably light for less.
Marge Lites on Hopes laced with DT Supercomps. Raceface Cinch crankset set up with a 28 tooth (or whatever works for you) and X9 or X0 shifter with a ten speed rear derailleur, XT cassette and that new Absolute Black 28-40 cassette adapter.
You can get a Bluto from Universal for a lot less than that using their monthly discount code (let me know if you need it).
I think he's been a little behind on the tubeless game, and this comment was written yesterday, literally and figuratively. There are several good carbon rims available right now and Marge Lites don't even belong in the same discussion.
Originally Posted by Welnic
You described my plan almost exactly.....went with the 42T wolftooth cog though.
Originally Posted by NYrr496
Great minds think alike.
Originally Posted by Shark
bme107, great idea. I think it makes a lotta sense to take a hard look at the Bucksaw 1 build as a point of reference, so that's what I've done below. I get the sense that Salsa has put some pretty serious effort into this package in terms of offering a very reasonable weight at a very reasonable price for the first full-sus fat on the market. Based on what I can tell, a Bucksaw 1 size L is gonna weigh about 33-1/2 lbs out of the box. Taking it tubeless might get you to 32-1/2, or so. And these numbers are still slightly slanted towards the wishful thinking direction, I think, but hopefully not by much.
Originally Posted by bme107
A couple of notes:
- There's no info available online for the frame weight, that I can find. I wouldn't expect there to be, at this point. So my point of reference was the Horsethief, since it has the same suspension, and is kinda the skinnier version of the Bucksaw, in my mind. Then I added 10% (probably low). That put the frame weight at 7.3 lbs. Even with carbon seatstays, I think people are being unrealistic if they are expecting some super light frame. It's a full-sus fatbike frame, for gawdsakes! It ain't gonna be a feather.
- I've built Surly Lite tubes into the equation. Even the lite version is pretty chunky, but the bike is gonna come with tubes of some sort. Just remember that you have to add some tape and sealant weight back in when you chuck your tubes. I thought ozziebmx did a great job of capturing this tradeoff in the Nextie rims thread , so I've used that data here, as a basis.
Feel free to shoot my analysis full of holes, but I think that anyone who is expecting the Bucksaw 1 build to come in close to or under 30 lbs is kidding themselves and that it's gonna take a lotta cash to get there with a custom build. That said, I think 30 lbs is an arbitrary milestone that a lot of people (including me) have their sights set on, that is kind of irrelevant. If my numbers are right, this full-sus fatbike (still pinching myself!) would still be WAY lighter than my 9:Zero:7 rigid, and a whole 'nother game. Considering that my 9:Zero:7 was kinda state of the art a couple years ago, the progression of fatbike technology is pretty amazing. And I think the Bucksaw is gonna be evolutionary. Life is good, fatbikers.
You've got a very reasonable first pass going on there. Thanks for putting in the time!
29.9 Lb Bucksaw Build
I couldn't agree more. 30 Lbs is a somewhat arbitrary number, and at the end of the day, money is the constraint, and I'll do the best I can with the weight. On the other hand, I do think there's huge difference between a 35 Lb and a 30 Lb fatbike, and 30 is a good goal to shoot for, planning-wise.
Originally Posted by WA-CO
So that's what I've done below, is roughly chart out what kind of money it takes to get sub-30, and then I can start trading dollars for grams to get back to my 6K budget. I used a lot of the suggestions you guys made for components, where it made sense, weight-wise.
A couple of notes:
- Everything revolves around my estimate of 7.3 for the frame weight, obviously. The frame alone could swing the build weight quite a ways either direction.
- The cost of the wheels includes components only; there's no build labor, which I need to factor in, because I'm not going to build these myself. And the cost of the Whisky rims is anybody's guess, at this point.
- I can shop the components harder when I get everything nailed down, but this was a reasonable effort to go out and look for the lowest prices doing a quick google shopping search. All prices include shipping, but not tax.
- I think the first thing I will compromise on is the ridiculously expensive XX1 drivetrain components. I will probably end up going XT 10-sp w/adapter like some of you have suggested, but I needed these to make sub-30.
- SRAM brakes are not my preference, but same deal here - in order to make sub-30, I needed them. I'll work with the weight tradeoff going forward.
- The crazy light HED rims (445 g) would drop this build to 29.3 Lbs, but take the cost in the wrong direction by probably another $500. That further reduction in rotating weight is pretty appealing, though.
Was thinking about a Bluto myself. Good to see you've made your decision
Man... Spovegas & Rocky Rider back on MTBR... welcome back bros! Cheers!!
Originally Posted by RockyRider
Annual OS Meet is listed down a ways... looking forward to riding/hanging out w/ BOTH of you there!!
I was at my LBS and if I remember right the Whiskey rims where coming in at $599 each msrp without much for wiggle room.
Hey, ward and RockyRider,
I hope to make it to the fatbike meet in Sept. No way I'll have a Bucksaw by then, but I will probably borrow a pugs from someone in Spokane. I'll find a way to get by on the beach without full suspension, somehow.
bdundee, thanks for the info on the Whisky rims. Looks like $400 was pretty wishful thinking, on my part. $599 puts them in the same ballpark as HEDs.
The rim decision is going to be really interesting. In addition to weight and cost, width is going to be a big consideration on this particular bike, for me. Per Salsa the bike is "Designed for use with 3.8” tires on 82mm, or narrower, rims". And they spec it with 65's on both builds. This is obviously not a fatbike that is designed/optimized for maximum floatation on snow and sand. It's a fatbike that is optimized for summer hardpack riding, while compromising some footprint and float in the soft stuff. Which is where I'm at . . . when I'm daydreaming about riding this bike, I'm descending rocky, rooty singletrack, and plowing through rock gardens. It'll still be plenty fat for what snow and sand riding I do. I think I'm going to want to stay in the 65-70mm range for this, to keep the tire profile more round and to keep the rim more inboard for better strike protection. A few of the choices out there, nice to have so many these days . . .
445g/$600+/85mm - HED
575g/$599/70mm - Whisky
660g/$320/90mm - Nextie
550g/$550/65mm - Lamere
649g/$550/80mm - Lamere
690g/$160/65mm - Marge Lite
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