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  1. #1
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    Smile Full suspension Fatbike Build <-- Bionicon Ironwood <-- Cash

    Current Issues in this Thread:

    Rear Cassette: I'm looking for something with 3-6 cogs. I need something that will allow the cogs to be spaced out a lot! My dropouts are about 175mm wide.

    DH Bash plate and Chain guide: I'm planning on fitting a bash plate, and possibly DH style chain guides. But I'm not sure how this would work/fit the crank sought after above?




    Intro:

    I'm building a fatbike and on this downhill frame:
    Bionicon Ironwood

    Full suspension Fatbike Build &lt;-- Bionicon Ironwood &lt;-- Cash-ironwood.jpg

    The purpose of this bike will be purely downhill riding, probably on ski slopes Other than that I just want it cheap as possible. So Weight is of zero concern.

    It has a two piece swingarm, Pics Below, so I'm figuring out how to widen the pivot with spacers. I will post pics of the pivot when I can.



    Swingarm Pictures:


    In first pic you see on the upper ride corner of the Swingarm(black part), is the Shock Mount, below that is the Large Stiffener tube, and below that is the Pivot, Towards the left side of the Swingarm, stuck to the bottom is the Small Stiffener:

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    Bearing Cups sitting in frame tube:
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    Pivot axle and bearings:
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    Parts List:

    Have a shot at adding to/editing my parts list.

    Rear Swingarm:

    1. Wide Shock bolts and spacers
    2. Wider Stiffener tube
    3. remove small stiffener tube close to tire

    Rear Swingarm Pivot:

    1. Bearing Cup spacers,
    2. Stiffener to hold spacers for the Bearing Cups in place,
    3. Pivot Axle stiffener,
    4. 5/16?” All thread to clamp the whole Pivot Axle together.

    Fork: ? rebound adjustable would be nice

    • Risse Trixxxy, Specs: 7” Travel, tire size 26” x 4.8”, Overall Tire diameter 30.8”, max casing width 121mm,


    1. intl brake mount,
    2. fork guards or boots?

    Rear shock:

    • Risse Astro-5, Specs: set for downhill riding, strong rebound/light damping for heavy wheel + DH swingarm,


    1. bushings for eyelets,
    2. boot
    3. hardware.

    tires/tubes:

    1. Surly 4.8s
    2. tubes: Surly toob? Anything tougher out there?
    3. ultra low pressure/run flat System?: two 26x1” foam tubes (bell no mor flats) on each wheel.

    Headset: standard zero stack 44mm (ZS44 standard), second hand.
    Brakes: mechanical discs, ~200mm rotor, floating? Most bang for the buck?
    hubs: already have 160mm rear and 120mm front
    wheels: the toughest 80mm wide wheels? Surly Marge?
    bottom bracket: 73mm wide shell. Whats the widest spindle? cotterless candidate
    cranks: Drive side crank that places gear further out, otherwise second hand.
    Bashplate/chain guides: DH style chain guide and Bash plate compatible with Cranks, for biggest possible front Gear.
    Front cog: Largest possible, second hand

    Rear derailleur: second hand

    cassette: second hand

    chain: second hand
    Brake Levers: second hand
    Shifters: second hand
    4' brake housing: second hand
    pedals: second hand
    seat post: second hand
    stem: second hand
    handlebars: second hand
    Last edited by Kos F; 05-30-2013 at 04:10 PM.

  2. #2
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    I'm going to be following this with interest. I've being eyeing off Bionicon at the local dealers for the last year. It looks ideal for a fatty conversion. Be good if you can use the Bionicon front fork and the integrated system.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  3. #3
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    A few things:

    The Trixxxy fork doesn't have much clearance. No way 4.8" tires will fit. On the Carver Trans Fat they have on their site, clearance is tight with a 3.8" tire on a Marge Lite: Carver TRANS-Fat Full Suspension Fat Bike

    Adding fat tires to a 26" wheel bike is going to raise the bottom bracket and standover. Probably won't be an issue for what you plan to do with it.

    I would not remove the stiffener tube in front of the rear tire if at all possible. You are increasing the sideways leverage on the rear triangle quite a bit by increasing tire diameter, and your spaced-out pivot and shock bolts will be weaker than stock.

  4. #4
    not FAT free
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    high bb on fs fat bike is not a big problem
    my bb is 16" high and bike looks high but suspension is set plush so when it sags it's not 16" anymore
    from my experience - no worries

    as far as stiffener removing -- i agree with Andy, You should leave it
    if that is 26" wheel frame i think You are facing rear dropout mod to move axe out for needed clearance
    if You want to remove stiffener to get clearance than probably tire will have contact with seat tube and You will end up with shortening travel - which is nonsense imho
    cheers and keep going !!
    subscribed

  5. #5
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    I'm pretty excited about this build! RFX Big foot I remember reading some of your build thread when I was whipping up this idea. Did you have a trixxxy fork? I need to know the clearance for the tire width... if it can't fit the 45nrth dillinger 4" tires this fork is a no go. In which case I don't know what to do because the German A flame is only 130mm travel and $1500+... Fork ideas? Andy this might be a picking on a detail but that description about the trans fat only says 100mm rims are a no go... just cling on to hope I guess

    Swingarm Stiffness: I might have to do some custom dropouts to move the rear wheel back a bit, in this case I would probably set it up with some heavy duty rear axle to give me stiffness. A much beefier "Large Stiffener" (above the pivot) could also make up for removing the Small Stiffener. Otherwise I would swap the stock small stiffener with a bent stiffener, not sure how I would do that though.

    Seat tube clearance: Again maybe custom dropouts... Unless I can get away with just dropping the suspension a bit, then letting it sag a lot when I sit on it.
    Last edited by Kos F; 02-21-2013 at 09:37 AM.

  6. #6
    gone walk about
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    Sandman is also testing a soon to be released fat fork which I believe mimics the Flame A unit but no idea of cost comparison.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  7. #7
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    yup sandman uses the german answer flame wide... or you mean theres a new one? They only have 90 and 130mm travel anyways... phill wood said in an email conversation they might consider producing the crowns for the 180mm dorado.

  8. #8
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    Contact Risse and ask about clearances. As I recall they had made some wider clamps for the Trixxxy at one point. White Bros. also had some wider clamps for their Groove forks, so they would be worth contacting too.

    Sandman is testing a new fork, but it is very similar to the German-A and the price is not a whole lot lower.

  9. #9
    not FAT free
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kos F View Post
    I'm pretty excited about this build! RFX Big foot I remember reading some of your build thread when I was whipping up this idea. Did you have a trixxxy fork? I need to know the clearance for the tire width... if it can't fit the 45nrth dillinger 4" tires this fork is a no go. In which case I don't know what to do because the German A flame is only 130mm travel and $1500+... Fork ideas? Andy this might be a picking on a detail but that description about the trans fat only says 100mm rims are a no go... just cling on to hope I guess

    Swingarm Stiffness: I might have to do some custom dropouts to move the rear wheel back a bit, in this case I would probably set it up with some heavy duty rear axle to give me stiffness. A much beefier "Large Stiffener" (above the pivot) could also make up for removing the Small Stiffener. Otherwise I would swap the stock small stiffener with a bent stiffener, not sure how I would do that though.

    Seat tube clearance: Again maybe custom dropouts... Unless I can get away with just dropping the suspension a bit, then letting it sag a lot when I sit on it.
    what i use is White Brothers DH2 ( GROOVE is 10mm narrower still can take fat tire but not as god as older forks )
    You may also use dh2, dh3, dh2.0 there is plenty of clearance for nate on 80mm rim in mud
    i have no idea how wide trixxy is but it runs 120mm wide hub also so i think should be very close
    best way is call Kevin Risse 541 5267242

    lou fit on 80mm rim but is to tight to use usd fork have flex so under cornering and braking it would rub !
    i've had no time to try lou on 65mm rim , i guess it would bring more clearance but i think not enough
    cheers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Full suspension Fatbike Build &lt;-- Bionicon Ironwood &lt;-- Cash-dsc_0325.jpg  

    Full suspension Fatbike Build &lt;-- Bionicon Ironwood &lt;-- Cash-dsc_0313.jpg  


  10. #10
    gone walk about
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kos F View Post
    or you mean theres a new one?
    yes a new one by Sandman themselves.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFX big foot View Post
    best way is call Kevin Risse 541 5267242
    That sounds good... he seems pretty bad with emails.
    Nice pics! you ever think of shaving the nobs slightly and filing the fork wall slightly hehehe (...sure its inadvisable)

    I will be email groove brothers, that is one place i haven't searched at all.
    Last edited by Kos F; 02-25-2013 at 04:30 PM.

  12. #12
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    The javelin of sandman is quite a bit wider than the flame, so it'll depend on tires and rim I supose!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy FitzGibbon View Post
    Contact Risse and ask about clearances. As I recall they had made some wider clamps for the Trixxxy at one point. White Bros. also had some wider clamps for their Groove forks, so they would be worth contacting too.

    Sandman is testing a new fork, but it is very similar to the German-A and the price is not a whole lot lower.
    Well no wide clamps from Groove Brothers... If I could get some drawings or a CAD file for some clamps I could probably get them machined at some online machine shop like: CNC Machine Shop | Custom Waterjet, Plasma, Laser Cutting | eMachineShop.com


    Bottom Bracket: Anyone know of some real low priced ones wide enough to make the chain clear a 4.8" tire? I'm going with one cog in the front and I am willing to sacrifice cogs in the rear if it means I could use a more widely available BB that I might be able to find second hand.
    Last edited by Kos F; 02-25-2013 at 10:28 PM.

  14. #14
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    TMS in France used to make a very wide ISIS BB.

    In a 68mm BB you'd have clearance for a few gears - not sure how many. I've got one in my workshop, I'll measure it up later.

    Otherwise by going for an old fashioned cup and cone square taper with separate spindle, you can get a wide enough chainline. If you're just using it for downhill this should present no problems. In the UK you can get these parts from http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cotterles...4mm-prod22175/. They have a 134mm axle which should do the trick.
    As little bike as possible, as silent as possible.
    Latitude: 57º36' Highlands, Scotland

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kos F View Post
    Well no wide clamps from Groove Brothers... If I could get some drawings or a CAD file for some clamps I could probably get them machined at some online machine shop like: CNC Machine Shop | Custom Waterjet, Plasma, Laser Cutting | eMachineShop.com


    Bottom Bracket: Anyone know of some real low priced ones wide enough to make the chain clear a 4.8" tire? I'm going with one cog in the front and I am willing to sacrifice cogs in the rear if it means I could use a more widely available BB that I might be able to find second hand.

    It's WHITE Bros., and the Groove is the fork model. A few years ago they had some extra-wide clamps they made for the Groove. There was a thread here about it. Maybe they sold them all since then, or maybe you just didn't talk to the right person.

  16. #16
    not FAT free
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy FitzGibbon View Post
    It's WHITE Bros., and the Groove is the fork model. A few years ago they had some extra-wide clamps they made for the Groove. There was a thread here about it. Maybe they sold them all since then, or maybe you just didn't talk to the right person.
    those wide crowns were just stock crowns made for fork ( not something special ) and they were 120mm spacing - because they thought DH will go in this direction , there was no wide or narrow option , all upside down WB forks till 2005 were 120 spacing, DH 2.0 was last model with 120mm, when they change spacing to 110mm they changed name to GROOVE so older models - UD 150 etc.. and DH2, DH3, DH2.0 are 120 mm
    cheers

  17. #17
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    Here is the thread I was referring to, as of March of last year they had three sets left...

    And RFX is right, they were for the older DH forks, but will work on the Groove forks.

  18. #18
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    Good stuff chaps, I will look further into the white bros situation. That was just a typo before, I meant white bros.



    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    ...
    Otherwise by going for an old fashioned cup and cone square taper with separate spindle, you can get a wide enough chainline. If you're just using it for downhill this should present no problems. In the UK you can get these parts from http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cotterles...4mm-prod22175/. They have a 134mm axle which should do the trick.
    This sounds kinda like the thing for me! I should be able to find something similar at the old bike parts stores here. I just gotta figure out the diameter of the shell, he said it was "standard"...


    The other thing I was wondering is if I could install some kind of chain guide like most DH bikes. Or if it will need special cog/crank/whatever. I'm definitely installing a bash plate.

  19. #19
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    ..awesome project, g' luck! looking forward to seeing the progression!

  20. #20
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    Just got the frame today, Shes a beauty!

    Anyone measured the actual max max overall diameter of the surly 4.8s?

    In the middle of this page surly has some tire sizes. but I'm not sure what "Radius @ Knob Shoulder Width" means?

  21. #21
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    650B_neomoto.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Kos F View Post
    Just got the frame today, Shes a beauty!

    Anyone measured the actual max max overall diameter of the surly 4.8s?

    In the middle of this page surly has some tire sizes. but I'm not sure what "Radius @ Knob Shoulder Width" means?
    Its the radius of the tyre at the fattest point. The 669 in the pic is the equivalent diameter.

    Its obviously important to know where you need your clearance, as well as how much you need.
    A big boy did it, and ran away.
    62*28'

  22. #22
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    Thats a good pic. That changes things a bit... I might have to go with 175mm dropouts.


    I am having a bit of trouble finding custom sized precision aluminum tubing for spacing out the swing arm. Anyone know any sources?

  23. #23
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    For acuracy, knob shoulder width isnt always the widest point. On a BFL the carcass is wider than the knobs for example. But you get the point.
    A big boy did it, and ran away.
    62*28'

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfurry View Post
    For acuracy, knob shoulder width isnt always the widest point. On a BFL the carcass is wider than the knobs for example. But you get the point.
    Alrighty... y'all think these measurements for Bud and Lou are accurate? scroll down to the table: Blog | Surly Bikes


    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    ...
    http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cotterles...4mm-prod22175/. They have a 134mm axle which should do the trick.
    Anyone know where I can get one of these in the US of A?



    About wheels...
    What are the strongest fatbike wheels aside from Large Marge? and large marges are only 65mm wide...
    Do any other manufacturers make fatbike wheels aside from Surly?


    Aluminum Tubing: Anyone know sources of custom precision aluminum tubing?
    Last edited by Kos F; 03-06-2013 at 12:18 AM.

  25. #25
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    Check the Bud and Lou user thread.
    A big boy did it, and ran away.
    62*28'

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfurry View Post
    Check the Bud and Lou user thread.
    Ug... did several searches using google and forum-search but nada

    LoL I like surly's new photo of Bud! The first photo in the article under "heres Bud": Blog | Surly Bikes



    Bottom Bracket: Who knows a BB for a 73mm wide shell, with a spindle wider than 134mm?? Or at least wider on the drive side... I will run only one gear on the crank and don't need many in the back.

    Crank: Also looking for a drive-side crank recommendations that place the gear as far out as possible to clear the swingarm. It will have to match the BB requested above, or this cotterless BB.

    DH Bash plate and Chain guide: I'm planning on fitting a bash plate, and possibly DH style chain guides. But I'm not sure how this would work/fit the crank sought after above?
    Full suspension Fatbike Build &lt;-- Bionicon Ironwood &lt;-- Cash-997_l.jpg
    Last edited by Kos F; 03-08-2013 at 05:32 PM.

  27. #27
    A Surly Maverick
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    I used one of these :-

    Name:
    FSA Platinum Pro DH ISIS Bottom Bracket
    Bottom bracket Length: 133mm
    Bottom Bracket Shells: 83mm

    Used spacers both sides (5mm) to allow fitting to a 73mm BB.
    A Fatback'd Lefty for who life IS a Beach

  28. #28
    not FAT free
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFX big foot View Post

    Cool so this could work with spacers somehow like what Dr Feelygood is talking about.
    I found this spacer kit, would this work?: RaceFace Cup Conversion/Retro Kit for 68-73BB to 83mm Bottom Bracket on eBay!


    Here is a pic of the BB from the link at the top of this post.
    Last edited by Kos F; 04-05-2013 at 11:57 AM.

  30. #30
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    Good chance that the 140mm hadley above is designed for a 100mm BB shell, certainly looks that wide.

    If you need a bit more clearance than a 134mm spindle provides, move your single ring to the outer position and then find a way to mount the chainguard ring out beyond that (long chainring bolts and spacers between the chainring and the guard).

    Source for a 134mm loose-ball spindle, Sick Bike Parts

    Same seller also has a 134mm cartidge BB.

    I did a DIY fatbike conversion using a frame with 68mm shell and 134mm square taper spindle. Even the inner granny gear has enough clearance for 3.7 endomorphs on snowcats with a 7-speed casette in back. If you are using middle our outer chainring position, chainline should be fine. Where is the chainline now?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    Good chance that the 140mm hadley above is designed for a 100mm BB shell, certainly looks that wide.
    That may be the case! I've added the pic to my previous post for some more opinions.

    I'm going to be running centered Surly 4.8s on 100mm rims, one front chainring, and I'm willing to sacrifice rear cogs if necessary.

    Grayjay, Nice cotterless spindle there. I'll have to call the local bike junkyards and see if I can find cotterless, parts whatever they are. For the chainguard, I need to do something like that with spacers. I do want a chainguard on both sides of the chainring to prevent de-railing, or DH style chain guide as pictured at the top of the page. Anyone care to explain the how chainguard/guide parts fit together? suggested parts?

    The build doesn't have a chainline yet, its still in it's infancy. But mostly designed. Got the double walled 100mm rob'son wheels in!
    Full suspension Fatbike Build &lt;-- Bionicon Ironwood &lt;-- Cash-img_20130404_152423.jpg
    Crap I no longer have the option to edit my first posts, whats the deal with that?
    Last edited by Kos F; 04-05-2013 at 12:21 PM.

  32. #32
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    To clear 115mm wide tires, you will need a chainline of around 60mm and will likely need to leave several cogs off casette, space casette further out from center. Regular chainline of outer ring on a typical MTB crank is usually about 50mm with a 117mm spindle so you need to bump the outer ring chainline out by another 10mm with a spindle that is 10mm longer on the drive side. A 134mm spindle should probably get you there, particularly if it is asymetrical (longer on drive side). Also check that the pedals will actually clear the chainstays / swingarm if they have been widened.
    If you want a really strong, heavy crankset get a profile steel crank, they can be ordered with wide spindle.

  33. #33
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    The swing arm is going to be widened by 45mm. The tires will actually be 120mm wide. I'm ok with whatever cranks, I will probably get some used ones. Can you space the cranks out where they mount on the spindle of the square taper BB?

  34. #34
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    I doubt that spacing square taper cranks out from the spindle would work. The tapered fit between crank and spindle needs to be very tight and strait. It is possible to space the fixed cup out from the shell by couple of MM but getting a long-enough spindle is probably better solution. Challange is that square taper spindles get flexible at long lengths, thus the reason for going to wider shell for less unsupported length between the bearings and crank.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    Good chance that the 140mm hadley above is designed for a 100mm BB shell, certainly looks that wide.

    If you need a bit more clearance than a 134mm spindle provides, move your single ring to the outer position and then find a way to mount the chainguard ring out beyond that (long chainring bolts and spacers between the chainring and the guard).

    Source for a 134mm loose-ball spindle, Sick Bike Parts

    Same seller also has a 134mm cartidge BB.

    I did a DIY fatbike conversion using a frame with 68mm shell and 134mm square taper spindle. Even the inner granny gear has enough clearance for 3.7 endomorphs on snowcats with a 7-speed casette in back. If you are using middle our outer chainring position, chainline should be fine. Where is the chainline now?
    You have any pics? What frame did you use?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by petriedav View Post
    You have any pics? What frame did you use?
    I just used an old steel hardtail frame as basis for conversion
    A album with pictures of the frame conversion is at;
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1102452...eat=directlink
    and a brief description and few pictures of the project is in thread;
    BB widing???EXTENDING
    I finished the bike 3 years ago and it has survived a bunch of riding and abuse.

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