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  1. #1
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    Front tire and steering response

    New to fat bikes. Been riding a pugsley for a couple of weeks.

    This might be helpful to other newbies. Bike came with a pair of endomorph tires. Front wheel steering had a pulling sensation when you initiated a turn or at times when the trail is a little off camber. I was running tire pressures of 8 to 10 psi.

    To day I changed the front tire to a surly Larry. Wow the tire has hardly any pulling sensation. Very please. Will leave the endomorph on the rear.

    So what other tires make for good steering tire?

  2. #2
    PRETENDURO
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    I eventually transitioned to Surly Nate tires from the Larry/Endomorph front/rear combination. Now the bike traverses surgically through the corners when the conditions are loose/muddy/rocky/off-camber/etc. as if it were on rails. If you can stand a bit more rolling resistance (It will just make you a STRONGER rider afterall!) then I highly recommend the upgrade.
    QUOTE from MTBR.COM: You have given Brewtality too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

  3. #3
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    HU DU's best in my book!!
    “An adventure is misery and discomfort, relived in the safety of reminiscence.” Marco Polo

  4. #4
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    Dual Nates are my weapon of choice. They stick and grip to the trail and give great steering and traction on the snow.
    RICOH for LIFE
    Chilkoot Cafe & Cyclery

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by majack View Post
    Dual Nates are my weapon of choice.
    x2

    and Dillingers for when trails get packed out.
    -Chris

  6. #6
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    I run dual nates in the winter here in MN and they are amazing for traction. Tire pressure is everything in the soft and slick.

    Summer time I run either dual larry's or a larry/endo combo.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montster View Post
    New to fat bikes. Been riding a pugsley for a couple of weeks.

    This might be helpful to other newbies. Bike came with a pair of endomorph tires. Front wheel steering had a pulling sensation when you initiated a turn or at times when the trail is a little off camber. I was running tire pressures of 8 to 10 psi.

    To day I changed the front tire to a surly Larry. Wow the tire has hardly any pulling sensation. Very please. Will leave the endomorph on the rear.
    The self steer is normal for the offset pug regardless of tire choice. I can't quantify if it happens more / less with a particular tire though.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    The self steer is normal for the offset pug regardless of tire choice. I can't quantify if it happens more / less with a particular tire though.
    How can the offset have anything to do with self steer? I'm asking this as a legitimate question. I've heard it stated many times and I do not understand how it would work.
    Latitude 61

  9. #9
    Maestro
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    Self Steer

    The Pugsley offset front fork has nothing to do with the self steer tendency. I have a Pugsley with dual Larry's on it. I have run a stock offset fork with a stock offset wheel, a Salsa Enabler fork with a centered wheel and now, a centered Pugsley fork with centered wheel. All three forks have the same rake offset 43 mm, but axle to crown is different which affects head angle and crown. The Enabler ( taller A-C) slacked out the head angle to 69 degrees and I did not like the wheel flop and wandering I experienced during steep or technical hill climbs. So, I went to a centered Pugs fork with the centered front wheel to return the geometry to stock head angle and trail.

    I converted my pugs to a centered front wheel to allow good handling with 29'er wheels in the summer.

    If you are interested, do some research on Jeff Jones and / or On-One fat front forks. They both make forks with 55 mm rake that will reduce the front end trail. This should reduce the self steer. I think the big tires need less trail than standard 2" wide 26 or 29er tires and Mr. Jones is on to something. I really want to try a 55 mm rake fork with a stock A-C on my Pugs.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by sryanak View Post
    How can the offset have anything to do with self steer? I'm asking this as a legitimate question. I've heard it stated many times and I do not understand how it would work.
    my pug is setup as follows: WB snowpac fork and wheel built symmetrical with the rear built offset as in this pic.
    while riding the bike it responds to my input just as my other bikes do when turning one direction (can't recall if right or left) but when turning the opposite direction it has an odd behavior of resistance, self steer or whatever term one wishes to label it with all i know is it does not handle, flop, turn the same in both directions in a matter of speaking.

    that said perhaps self steer is the incorrect term when referencing its behavior.

    Maestro i never said it was the oem fork but my reference was to the offset chassis in general making this odd feeling.....orrrrrrr maybe the way i built it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Front tire and steering response-dscn1556.jpg  

    Last edited by nvphatty; 12-30-2012 at 02:17 PM.

  11. #11
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Nope, offset fork or wheel has nothing to do with it. Let's put that rumor to bed right away.

    The Endo in particular has a very square profile, hence the draggy feeling when steering. Larry et al are much rounder, so no, or greatly reduced self steering.

    Run any of the tires low enough, and they will start to display the characteristic though.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Nope, offset fork or wheel has nothing to do with it. Let's put that rumor to bed right away.

    The Endo in particular has a very square profile, hence the draggy feeling when steering. Larry et al are much rounder, so no, or greatly reduced self steering.

    Run any of the tires low enough, and they will start to display the characteristic though.
    this does not explain why mine does it. I started with 10psi both ends and it behaved this way and now that i'm @ 7psi both it is more pronounced.

  13. #13
    Maestro
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    NVPHATTY,

    You have a beautiful bike. I like the color scheme alot.

    My experience with self steering, is a tendency in loose dirt or hardpack, when carving single track at moderate speeds, for the bike to want to oversteer, to turn itself, more into the turn. It is kind of like, you turn the bars, or lean the bike, and then you have to resist the bars as the bike tries to spiral steer itself even tighter into the corner. Weird. Seemed worse with the Enabler. (Which kind of chopper-ed my bike out.) I do not notice this phenomena in snow. Feels the same left or right.

    Engineering moment - Warning - (Stop reading if you do not want to fall asleep)
    If you examine your bike from above or behind, the centerline of the rim/tire is (should be) in line with the centerline of the bike itself. Even though the centerline of the rim/tire is 17.5 mm offset from the hub(s) centerline. There is no engineering reason for the bike to react differently with the ground, when leaned left or right.

    Now, maybe there is some wheel flex, that ruins my explanation. Or maybe the the vertical force vector of the rim which is misaligned by 17.5 mm with the center line of the hub is creating some wierd torsion in the frame. But, if there is some strange phenomena, causing what you describe, than it should manifest itself in lefty forks in a big way and some of the high end motorcycles that use one sided swing arms in the rear.

    Just my opinion, please accept it with a large grain of salt.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
    NVPHATTY,

    You have a beautiful bike. I like the color scheme alot.

    My experience with self steering, is a tendency in loose dirt or hardpack, when carving single track at moderate speeds, for the bike to want to oversteer, to turn itself, more into the turn. It is kind of like, you turn the bars, or lean the bike, and then you have to resist the bars as the bike tries to spiral steer itself even tighter into the corner. Weird. Seemed worse with the Enabler. (Which kind of chopper-ed my bike out.) I do not notice this phenomena in snow. Feels the same left or right.

    Engineering moment - Warning - (Stop reading if you do not want to fall asleep)
    If you examine your bike from above or behind, the centerline of the rim/tire is (should be) in line with the centerline of the bike itself. Even though the centerline of the rim/tire is 17.5 mm offset from the hub(s) centerline. There is no engineering reason for the bike to react differently with the ground, when leaned left or right.

    Now, maybe there is some wheel flex, that ruins my explanation. Or maybe the the vertical force vector of the rim which is misaligned by 17.5 mm with the center line of the hub is creating some wierd torsion in the frame. But, if there is some strange phenomena, causing what you describe, than it should manifest itself in lefty forks in a big way and some of the high end motorcycles that use one sided swing arms in the rear.

    Just my opinion, please accept it with a large grain of salt.
    thank you

    Everything is aligned, ie wheels, frame etc and while i lack the knowledge to ascertain the reason I appreciate ramblings and make as much sense of them as humanly possible.

  15. #15
    All Lefty's, all the time Moderator
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    Having not spent any time on the Origin 8 tires, I'll toss them out as a possibility.

    Endo does it like mad. Larry does, only when pressure is too low.

    Running three fatties. Offset fork Pug with a BFL offset built Rolling Darryl, no issues. Demo Pug at the shop, 100 mm symmetrical fork with symmetrically built CUS Hundie and a Nate, no issues. Lefty on my Form with a Uma 90 built offset and a Bud, no issues either.

    Tried a different tire yet?
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

    - FrostyStruthers



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  16. #16
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    My Moonlander with Clown Shoes + BFLs front and rear "self-steers" at low pressures. When turning or just leaning the bike to either side while riding, the tire seems to make it turn further.

    All bikes will self-steer somewhat when leaning (we actually need it to do this so we can steer when riding without hands on the bars), but only with a fat bike I need to actively keep the handlebar from turning too far.

    The fork is symmetric and the effect is similar on both sides, so it can't be an issue with offset.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    my pug is setup as follows: WB snowpac fork and wheel built symmetrical with the rear built offset as in this pic.
    while riding the bike it responds to my input just as my other bikes do when turning one direction (can't recall if right or left) but when turning the opposite direction it has an odd behavior of resistance, self steer or whatever term one wishes to label it with all i know is it does not handle, flop, turn the same in both directions in a matter of speaking.

    that said perhaps self steer is the incorrect term when referencing its behavior.

    Maestro i never said it was the oem fork but my reference was to the offset chassis in general making this odd feeling.....orrrrrrr maybe the way i built it.
    I agree, nice color scheme. If you got an On-One frame and fork, it would complete the orange theme, and the 55mm fork would pretty much eliminate any self steer from the flop caused by head angle and trail, but if it is different left to right, something is wrong. Possibly the fork or frame is not perfectly straight. First, though, try turning it while stationary with the front wheel up to check for resistance in the headset or from the cables, then check for any slack in the headset or front hub. If all of this checks out OK, you may want to take it to a specialist who builds or repairs frames and forks to check for straightness. If the head tube or fork is tweaked, it would cause a pull to one side.

    Oh, and what orange hubs did you find?

  18. #18
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    Jones Truss Fork

    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
    The Pugsley offset front fork has nothing to do with the self steer tendency. I have a Pugsley with dual Larry's on it. I have run a stock offset fork with a stock offset wheel, a Salsa Enabler fork with a centered wheel and now, a centered Pugsley fork with centered wheel. All three forks have the same rake offset 43 mm, but axle to crown is different which affects head angle and crown. The Enabler ( taller A-C) slacked out the head angle to 69 degrees and I did not like the wheel flop and wandering I experienced during steep or technical hill climbs. So, I went to a centered Pugs fork with the centered front wheel to return the geometry to stock head angle and trail.

    I converted my pugs to a centered front wheel to allow good handling with 29'er wheels in the summer.

    If you are interested, do some research on Jeff Jones and / or On-One fat front forks. They both make forks with 55 mm rake that will reduce the front end trail. This should reduce the self steer. I think the big tires need less trail than standard 2" wide 26 or 29er tires and Mr. Jones is on to something. I really want to try a 55 mm rake fork with a stock A-C on my Pugs.
    I have a Jones truss fork on my Pugs and it steers and handles way better than the stock Pugs fork.

  19. #19
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    Those Origin8 tires are made by vee rubber who also has their own fat tire called "mission" which I have and which "self steers" way more than a larry. Could it be in the construction of the tire, not just tread pattern? I have a centered fork but logically an offset fork shouldnt have anything to do with it. I'd love to try a more raked fork.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker View Post
    I eventually transitioned to Surly Nate tires from the Larry/Endomorph front/rear combination. Now the bike traverses surgically through the corners when the conditions are loose/muddy/rocky/off-camber/etc. as if it were on rails. If you can stand a bit more rolling resistance (It will just make you a STRONGER rider afterall!) then I highly recommend the upgrade.
    I agree. I had commented in another thread about the self-steer on my Pugs. I just put some Nates on this week and have to say that it was the best thing I could have done. I am in love with a fat man named Nate. Has taken care of the self-steer feeling altogether and I had a heck of a time breaking lose on anything while out on the trails the last couple of days.

    Go with the Nates. It feels good to be in love.

  21. #21
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    Until I switched to Husker Du and Nate, I never even for a second could pedal without my hands on the bars. Now it's so easy to steer I often pedal one handed for extended periods and even let go on pavement. I may be a wuss, but Devist8er's never offered me that level of trust.

    Many people have mentioned Nate on the front, but in the soft stuff it's doing great on the rear. Husker Du on the front feels really safe like the bike is on rails even in packed snow.

  22. #22
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    I put the Devist8or tire on last week, and it seems to devistate the steering of my offset (stock) Pugz. It's a really round tire in profile, so i wondered if that made an impact. My Larry did not steer like this, it was very predictable. After the Holiday Madness is complete, I may switch it with the Nate currently on the rear. It felt to me like it wanted to grab and pull to the left on pavement or frozen dirt, and if I steer left in snow, it tracks OK, then suddenly spirals to the left. It also weighs nearly 5lbs, so I'm sure I'll be really strong by springtime.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stockli Boy View Post
    I put the Devist8or tire on last week, and it seems to devistate the steering of my offset (stock) Pugz. It's a really round tire in profile, so i wondered if that made an impact. My Larry did not steer like this, it was very predictable. After the Holiday Madness is complete, I may switch it with the Nate currently on the rear. It felt to me like it wanted to grab and pull to the left on pavement or frozen dirt, and if I steer left in snow, it tracks OK, then suddenly spirals to the left. It also weighs nearly 5lbs, so I'm sure I'll be really strong by springtime.
    IF your trails get icy, keep it even if you get another tire, Devist8er should be tough enough to stud it. First, drill pilot holes through the center of a tread block. Then take Pan head sheet metal screws or "self tapping" screws and screw them from the inside outwards. An ice racing buddy suggested this, he did it for lake racing on dirt bikes and cars.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    The self steer is normal for the offset pug regardless of tire choice. I can't quantify if it happens more / less with a particular tire though.

    Don't think that it's due to the offset. I switched from an Endo to a Nate and the self steer disappeared
    If you need me I'll be at the bar

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post

    Oh, and what orange hubs did you find?
    the rear is CK 135 ISO in mango. The front is a PAUL WHUB which they kindly anodized mango at my request for a nominal fee of course.

    Based upon the info from some it seems as though the tires may be the culprit. The bike has not been crashed, wheeled since new so either the frame or fork were not true from square one or it's possibly the tires.

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