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  1. #26
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    If your Pug has different steering characteristics from one side to the other, the most likely reason is that the back wheel is not aligned properly with the front, ie it is squint in the dropouts.

    (assuming your frame is properly aligned)
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  2. #27
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    Carcass shape is the reason the Endo displays the self steer it does, and the reason the others in Surly's line up, don't.

    Sounds like others are saying they experience what you do with those Origin8 tires. Having not been on them myself, I can't say, but I'm guessing they are flatter in profile, which will make them drag you all over the place, not fun.

    I have an old Larry I'd be happy to ship you cheap if you want to try out the theory.
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  3. #28
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    add some air, if you pump them to 15 the self steer (I call if dive bombing) goes away. pump them up to 30 and it feels like a road bike!

  4. #29
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    Big thank you to everyone for the good discussion on this thread. I have struggled with the self steer issue during the summer and this winter I have been struggling with traction in the snow. I am waiting for the Devist8er that I have ordered for the rear of my bike. I am not sure what I could put on the front. I am leaning towards a nate, but they are kind of expensive. Now I am wondering if the devist8er might self steer more than my Larry does? (during the summer)

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    If your Pug has different steering characteristics from one side to the other, the most likely reason is that the back wheel is not aligned properly with the front, ie it is squint in the dropouts.

    (assuming your frame is properly aligned)
    not my case. front is bottomed in the fork drops, the rear is all the way forward in the hor drops for the shortest wheelbase. IF in fact the 2 wheels are not tracking inline then perhaps the frame is misaligned. Frame was chased/faced with only the paint removed from surfaces to ensure it was square before assem. nothing amiss with headset install or it's setup, ie it rotates freely in both directions and does not rock within the steer tube.

  6. #31
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    IME, its the Origin 8 Devastators.... more below

    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Having not spent any time on the Origin 8 tires, I'll toss them out as a possibility.

    Endo does it like mad. Larry does, only when pressure is too low.

    Running three fatties. Offset fork Pug with a BFL offset built Rolling Darryl, no issues. Demo Pug at the shop, 100 mm symmetrical fork with symmetrically built CUS Hundie and a Nate, no issues. Lefty on my Form with a Uma 90 built offset and a Bud, no issues either.

    Tried a different tire yet?

    Have to agree with Mendon. My friend and I both bought 907s last year that came equipped with Nates. Awesome tires. Decided we wouldn't need as much traction for the summer and purchased the $45 Devastators with a Kevlar casing. We noticed the self steering feel immediately and it is worsened with low tire pressures. For myself, I ended up running the Origin 8s at 10psi front and rear at a bodyweight of 240lbs. Running lower psi worked better for ride quality but the self steering was noticeable.

    Otherwise, they are an awesome tire and after a few rides we both adjusted to it at the higher pressures. It really depends on the trail as well. One system that we like to go on has a few trails with severe erosion from rain run off and the self steering was wicked on those trails. I believe the tread design somehow "locks on" to the off camber ruts and "follows the rut".

    Note that I had switched back to the the Nates in September and the better quality steering was immediately noticeable. I still like the Origin 8s, particularly for their puncture resistance. I rode through the summer with no flats and have already had four flats after switching back to the Nates in Sept.

    Also, I have never owned an Endo but have seen them on other bikes and on the web etc. The Devastator tread design resembles an endo with a "broken" tread pattern. Myself, I am hoping that Origin 8 puts out a knobby styled Devastator with the Kevlar casing. I was actually riding through overgrown thorny areas to test them and never got a puncture. Only downside, they are heavy. I believe some sites list them as 2000 and as high as 2100 grams and I believe it!!!

  7. #32
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    THB thanks for the additional input from experience as its note worthy.

    When funds allow i'll have a go with the new 3.8 knard

  8. #33
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    nvphatty,

    Something else that hasn't been mentioned yet. If the tire being used has a self-steering tendency, there could be a left vs. right difference in feel based on human bias to the left vs. right. You might never see it on a narrower tire bike, but with the fat low pressure tires that have a lot more pull it may be accentuated. Some people are just more comfortable with going one direction over the other. Just something to throw out there.

  9. #34
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    Team Honeybadger,

    What pressure did (do) you run your Nate(s) at? I am about 200# all kitted up and I like my front Larry at 7-8 psi for ride quality.

    One suggestion for the devist8er is to try running it backward on the front. Has anyone tried it?

  10. #35
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    In reading several of the responses here, it seems that tread pattern is something folks consider to be a factor.

    While we refer to a given tire, which obviously has a pattern, it's not the pattern that is affecting the issue at hand.

    Carcass shape, tire profile, casing shape, whatever you want to call it, is.

    Anyone who's tried an Endomorph up front and switched to another tire like a Larry or Nate, knows exactly what I'm talking about.

    I have no time on the Origin8 tires, so I can't speak to them personally, but forward or backward, if folks are getting self steering with them at reasonable pressures, they suffer from the same issue as Endo's, a square profile.

    Now this isn't a bad thing. The OG of our little club all loved the Endo for it's superior flotation qualities. The squarer profile gives a nice flat contact patch, less prone to diving into soft, packed powder. So, extrapolating from there, the one thing that sucked about the Endo was traction, either drive, or steering.

    So if the O8 tires have a similar squarer profile, and more bite, they are a win (weight notwithstanding) for the snow floater crowd.

    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    the rear is CK 135 ISO in mango. The front is a PAUL WHUB which they kindly anodized mango at my request for a nominal fee of course.

    Based upon the info from some it seems as though the tires may be the culprit. The bike has not been crashed, wheeled since new so either the frame or fork were not true from square one or it's possibly the tires.
    I can say that tires do make a difference. I rode a pugs necro, with endo/larry, and a Moonlander with BFLs back to back, and the BFLs seemed to do it noticably worse than the regular size Larry front. They both had noticable self steer though. The LBS employee said he didn't even notice it on either though. I guess some people don't mind, or even notice it. It makes a big difference to me though. That is why I didn't buy either of the Surly bikes, and got an On-One instead.
    Note: I tried several pressures from 10 to 30psi on the BFLs, and still did it the same.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    not my case. front is bottomed in the fork drops, the rear is all the way forward in the hor drops for the shortest wheelbase. IF in fact the 2 wheels are not tracking inline then perhaps the frame is misaligned...
    Just a thought - have you done the string test for alignment?
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Just a thought - have you done the string test for alignment?
    Just curious, What is the string test/ what does it check?

  14. #39
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    I've run black floyds, endos, Larry's in BF and regular sizes. Black floyds at lower speeds self steer far worse than any of the others. You really have to pay attention with them on hard surfaces. As others have said higher pressure reduces the pull

    some details
    all are run on the same 50mm rims and I've had a lot less seat time with the BFLs and black floyds
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    Just curious, What is the string test/ what does it check?
    A quick simple way to check alignment without specialist tools.

    Flip the bike upside down and set the front wheel so it is as straight as possible.

    The run a string from the rear down each side just kissing the edges of the tyres. If there is a discrepancy, it will be obvious at the front because there will be unequal gaps.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    In reading several of the responses here, it seems that tread pattern is something folks consider to be a factor.

    While we refer to a given tire, which obviously has a pattern, it's not the pattern that is affecting the issue at hand.

    Carcass shape, tire profile, casing shape, whatever you want to call it, is.

    Anyone who's tried an Endomorph up front and switched to another tire like a Larry or Nate, knows exactly what I'm talking about.

    I have no time on the Origin8 tires, so I can't speak to them personally, but forward or backward, if folks are getting self steering with them at reasonable pressures, they suffer from the same issue as Endo's, a square profile.

    Now this isn't a bad thing. The OG of our little club all loved the Endo for it's superior flotation qualities. The squarer profile gives a nice flat contact patch, less prone to diving into soft, packed powder. So, extrapolating from there, the one thing that sucked about the Endo was traction, either drive, or steering.

    So if the O8 tires have a similar squarer profile, and more bite, they are a win (weight notwithstanding) for the snow floater crowd.


    Couldn't agree more and what makes the endos and other square profile tires so bad on hardpack is exactly what makes them so great on snow and loose sand- that square cross section equals floatation. I think it was Pete Bassinger several years back who explained it so well and explained why the square cross section doesn't want to jack knife on snow like a rounded or narrow tire. An endo up front is horrid on most conditions but they excel in sand and snow. I wish they would have a BFE or at least not discontinue that tire.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velobike View Post
    Just a thought - have you done the string test for alignment?
    during my 30+yrs of motorcycling i know the technique well and no sir i have not but will give it a go for curiosity sake.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    during my 30+yrs of motorcycling i know the technique well and no sir i have not but will give it a go for curiosity sake.
    I thought you might know it.

    I found that when switching my offset wheels between my 907 and Pug that's there's about 1mm difference in alignment. One of them is out. I haven't bothered to work out which, and simply adjusted the wheel over, and later solved the problem by building another wheelset just for the Pug.

    But I doubt that 1mm difference is enough to cause much effect on the steering when we have such wide tyres.
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  19. #44
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    I like to say "with a nate, take it down to eight" (more)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
    Team Honeybadger,

    What pressure did (do) you run your Nate(s) at? I am about 200# all kitted up and I like my front Larry at 7-8 psi for ride quality.

    One suggestion for the devist8er is to try running it backward on the front. Has anyone tried it?

    but "nine is fine" also. In short, for a trail that I am not familiar with I will usually run 10psi front and rear to keep things simple. I don't mind stopping multiple times to take the pressure down by hand and then measuring it during a rest break (If one of us remembered to bring a gauge) or sometimes not until the end of the ride. The amazing part about these bikes is the effect that a pound of air can have upon the ride quality. Be sure to get a gauge such as the Meisers 0-30 psi so that you get a consistent reading. I had planned to purchase a higher end digital gauge but never got around to it.

    In snow, different story. Lower pressures. On Sunday, I ended up down at 5psi which was a bit of mind game for me since this was the first snow for us this season in NEPA. No need to over complicate things. If you end up riding an area that seems too soft for the bike just remember to let air out before giving up on it. A pound of air can literally lead to riding over walking a section.

    BTW, I forgot to mention about the Origin 8 profile vs. Nates. The Origin 8 has a very flat or squared off carcass compared to the round profile of the Nates. I'm sure Mendon is right about that being the cause of the self steering response. Actually the Origin 8s would probably be perfect for the snow we have now (dry powder) but we usually get a heavy wet snow or get rain a few days after a storm which is one of the reasons the Nates have performed well in the past.

    The tire carcass shape/profile is an interesting issue for me. I have heard on this forum that some people were not happy with the Moonlander on single track (of course, others have raved about it) and I wonder if it was the tires or the 100mm clown shoes (or both) creating more a wide stanced tire on the trails. I've been interested in the Moony since they came out but have never had the opportunity to ride one and have never seen one in person yet. Conversely, I sometimes wonder if Surly got it right the first time with the Pugs.

    My friend and I had talked about running the devastators backwards but never got around to it. I had meant to try running the Nate backwards this winter but have been too lazy to change the tire again!!

  20. #45
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    I am pretty sure that it is the tires. The roundness and width of the tire allows the outside treads to come into contact with the surface, especially when running low pressures on a hard surface. As the outside treads contact the riding surface they will pull the tire that direction. Try riding along a rounded gutter curb, it almost pulls you up the curb. I agree some tires are much better than others, I haven't tried endo's in front but nates are much better than larrys.

  21. #46
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    House temp i run 10psi front / 15 psi rear w/ the nates.

    Once they cool off outside in the 10-25F range they are around 7 psi front and 11 psi rear. This is what I pump up to if in the cold.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
    Team Honeybadger,

    What pressure did (do) you run your Nate(s) at? I am about 200# all kitted up and I like my front Larry at 7-8 psi for ride quality.

    One suggestion for the devist8er is to try running it backward on the front. Has anyone tried it?

  22. #47
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    good point on "house temps" - there can be a big swing as you noted

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk3Rider View Post
    House temp i run 10psi front / 15 psi rear w/ the nates.

    Once they cool off outside in the 10-25F range they are around 7 psi front and 11 psi rear. This is what I pump up to if in the cold.
    I've learned to check the pressure at the trail for that reason. Still haven't got the knack of the squeeze test but my friend does that and seems to be pretty consistent at 8 in the rear and 6 in the front. (again on a 907, nates and rolling daryls). I like to keep the psi the same front and rear to keep things simple but realize that it probably should be lower in the front for optimal handling.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Honeybadger View Post
    but "nine is fine" also.
    “Seven is heaven”, at least on the terrain I ride on. Five is jive, as I’ve gotten pinchflats with them that far down on the rocky/rooty stuff.
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  24. #49
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    What have folks been running their HuDu's at? I am guessing mine are at 8-12psi up front and 6-10 in the back one.
    Currently running the HuDu in somewhat compacted snow by snowmobile, skis and snowshoers in these temps of -1 to -5c. They have been incredibly forgiving on fast corners with the front end just starting to wash out at times. Seems for the most part, an intuitive counter steer (using Jeff Jones Loop bar) is all the Bear needs and the bike pulls out of what might be a disastrous crash in the making! So far I have only gone airborne over the bars once as I got pulled into a deeper rut with unpacked snow
    My LBS is looking thru their stuff to find one of the small brass low pressure presta gauges that I saw online recently.

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  25. #50
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    I started out with Larrys front and back on my Fatback. Switched to Nate on the rear early last winter and put a second Nate on the front this winter.

    Really struggled with off-camber fresh snow traction on the front with the Larry – slides out very quickly. The Nate on the front is much better in these conditions but still slides out (not sure it is reasonable to expect any tire to grip off camber freshies? Would love to see a front tire review for these conditions with all tires). The front Nate doesn’t ‘flow’ as well downhill as the Larry though (in fresh snow) – it almost grips too well and where the Larry will roll the Nate will sometimes ‘grip and slip’.

    My favorite fat bike conditions are heavy crust snow, untouched snow where the top has melted and refrozen – here the Larrys excel, The Nates knobs tend to break through the frozen top where the Larrys grip and go. Tscheezy made a video of these conditions a while ago on Alaska.

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