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  1. #1
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    Fat fully w/remote air.



    >>>> Link <<<<.

    Discuss.

  2. #2
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    that looks like what i wish my trail bike was now

    i'd like to see a different picture, unique looking linkage, from this angle at least

    edit: finally got their website to load and took a peek at the linkage. neat idea, i use a lot of linear bearings for work and i'm not sure this is a good application but cool nonetheless
    Last edited by ferday; 04-29-2013 at 12:21 PM.
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  3. #3
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    Damn

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferday View Post
    that looks like what i wish my trail bike was now

    i'd like to see a different picture, unique looking linkage, from this angle at least
    The rear tire travels parallel to the front linkage, it's on a sliding linear bearing. Interesting concept, I doubt that it will ever be more than just a concept though.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferday View Post
    that looks like what i wish my trail bike was now

    i'd like to see a different picture, unique looking linkage, from this angle at least
    Hit the link. There's a slide show, with a closeup of the linkage.

    Not a big lover of complexity, but I'd be interested to see how it works. Head angle looks super slack.

  6. #6
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    I feel all tingly! EDIT: The detail on how the frame itself also doubles as an air tank. Hell yes.
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  7. #7
    will rant for food
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    To clarify, I'm not sure I'd own this bike.

    But the notion that someone built it, I'd be the guy in the background:

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  8. #8
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    neat, wouldn't go with linear travel myself, but definitely proof that a wide swingarm'd heckler would work
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  9. #9
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    I had seen a couple photos before, and noticed a strange rear suspension design, but this is the first closer view of the rear triangle I have seen. I guess no pivot points here, or maybe a single pivot, with the pivot point being pushed out to infiniti.
    I wonder if it has linear bearings or probably just plain bearings/bushings like a fork.
    I still can't see if there is a second shaft on the other side, or do they use the seat tube as the other shaft, with some kind of split clamp/bearing.
    If linear travel was the goal, I think it would be best to use a square, or triangular seat tube with needle rollers like a lefty.

  10. #10
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    No pivots. Looks like the rear triangle travels straight up and down on 2 parallel tubes. From pic 2 of 23: "The rear axle mimics the same rearward path as the front fork as the rear triangle slides up and down on two shafts using recirculating ball bearings."

    Some more pics here: Devise Cycles
    and here: Devise Cycles

  11. #11
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    Judging by the next shot - two symmetrical linear bearings separate from the seattube:
    Fat fully w/remote air.-s780_bt_20130421_untitled_shoot_015.jpg

    And those had better be linear ball bearings - if they are bushings, it will be the king of stiction. The chain tension will be putting one heck of a side load on that. It also looks like the chain length will grow as it travels up, which means that pedal pressure stiffens it up.

    More of an issue is the two steel bar raceways being a tad bit heavy - but it's an interesting suspension approach.

    The hubs don't look like true fatbike parts - Adaptrac - Adaptable Traction Control for Mountain Bikes only lists 15mm thru axle front and 12 x 142 rear hubs.

    On the other hand, if you check their pricelist they do offer guage sets in 0-15psi and 0-30psi for fatbikes vs the 0-60psi "normal" set.
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  12. #12
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    I just don't know of any kind of linear or ball bearings that will work on a round shaft.
    please tell me what you all are talking about.

    I don't think chain tension will be the biggest thing causing stiction, rather the torque from the axle being that far from the sliders.

    Edit: I think I found the linear bearings like you are taliking about, but they are roughly twice the diameter of the shaft they ride on in the appropriate load ratings to even handle the static weight of a bike and rider. I don't see any strong enough for the loads of hitting bumps.
    the outer tubes don't look big enough to hold them either.
    Last edited by autodoctor911; 04-29-2013 at 06:18 PM.

  13. #13
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    Those dudes had a booth set up at the Sea Otter Classic this year (2013). I stopped by (on my 9:zero:7) and chatted with them for about 20 minutes after my XC race on Sunday. Seems as though the system is capable of 5 cycles for both front and rear tires between 5 to 25 psi (not that anyone would ever need to go above 16 psi in a fatbike tire). Amazingly simple system, obviously the air valve goes through the hub on the right side and into the presta valve on a standard presta tube. Twin air pressure gauges mounted on the handlebar indicate the pressure for the front and rear tubes. That full suspension setup was surprisingly lightweight, I was pretty impressed. The most expensive part of the bike of course was the Maverick DUC32 fork.
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  14. #14
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    i could be wrong but duc is modified too, looks wider and has lower crown with clamp - not welded

  15. #15
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    Re-invention of plunger suspension but a different angle.

    Interesting.
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  16. #16
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    Interesting. I like outside the box thinking, but I can't say as this speaks to me personally.

    The air bit seems superfluous, maybe they have needs I don't though?

    The suspension, I just can't wrap my brain around. They mention that no one knows just what fat tires might do for, or to, full suspension, but they don't seem to mention how their system addresses that? Or did I miss something? Much like all the VPP/DW stuff, seems like an engineers on paper wet dream, but one who never actually uses said creation in it's intended environment.

    Give me a nice solid, simple design, and we're talking, as far as I'm concerned. The Salsa comes to mind, or perhaps a Lenz? Fewer moving parts, fewer proprietary froo froo's, etc. That system looks like it would get eaten alive in one rainy ride too, again, I'm not seeing it in person, so I could be very wrong.

    I'm not even opposed to a bit of flashy gee gaw, but it's implementation needs to make sense in some way. I don't race, so having to get off my bike to change tire pressure never really ruined my day, etc.

    Good on 'em for playing with it though!
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  17. #17
    Levi Early
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    I stopped and talked with them at sea otter as well. What grabbed my attention was the xx1 crankset on there. After talking with Brant (owner) seems to be that he can make this work with some modifications. I smell a xx1 set up on my mukluk towards the end of the year.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFX big foot View Post
    i could be wrong but duc is modified too, looks wider and has lower crown with clamp - not welded
    Yep, there's a pic of them doing that.
    Devise Cycles

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi707 View Post
    I stopped and talked with them at sea otter as well. What grabbed my attention was the xx1 crankset on there. After talking with Brant (owner) seems to be that he can make this work with some modifications. I smell a xx1 set up on my mukluk towards the end of the year.
    And a pic of that, too.
    Devise Cycles

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I just don't know of any kind of linear or ball bearings that will work on a round shaft.
    please tell me what you all are talking about.

    I don't think chain tension will be the biggest thing causing stiction, rather the torque from the axle being that far from the sliders.

    Edit: I think I found the linear bearings like you are taliking about, but they are roughly twice the diameter of the shaft they ride on in the appropriate load ratings to even handle the static weight of a bike and rider. I don't see any strong enough for the loads of hitting bumps.
    the outer tubes don't look big enough to hold them either.
    Just a quick grab - a linear "ball bushing" in small size 1/4" shaft. 60lb rolling load seems a bit low - but you would have at least 4 of these so that makes it 240 lbs vs chain load (all in one direction) or 120 lbs in suspension mode -resist rotation to hold things in line, tops take backward load bottoms take forward load.
    Name:  prod_rst_Metric_Compact_Thin_Wall_Ball_Bearing_KHP.jpg
Views: 1725
Size:  15.7 KB
    GENERAL
    Product Family: Super
    Product Type: Bearing
    MECHANICAL
    Nominal Diameter: 0.25in
    Recommended Shaft: 1/4 L
    Dynamic Load Capacity (lbf): 60

    DIMENSIONS
    [C] Length (in): 0.750/0.735
    [C1] Between Retaining Ring Grooves (in): .511/.501
    [C2] Retaining Ring Groove, min (in): 0.039
    [D] Recommended Housing Bore Diameter-Fixed (in): 0.0015C/0.0000 (doesn't give OD, but looks like 1/2")
    [d] 60 Case Diameter (in): 0.2495/0.2490
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    This isn't a "you're doing it wrong" topic.

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  21. #21
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    what do you think the loads will be on the bearings when you hit a 4" tall ledge at 15-20mph though?

  22. #22
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    I thought about this bike a bit - if the geometry changed a bit I would like to own this sans Adaptrac. Mentally erase the air canister in the front triangle for a moment. Notice that it's a full suspension design, yet the front triangle is damn near empty?!

    Frame bag!
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  23. #23
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    Interesting what that does with the vertical and horizontal components of an impact. Recovery/return may be a little odd, as its horizontal component would be opposing forward movement of the bike. I believe most rear suspensions convert the horizontal component into vertical movement and wheel turn?


    Linear ball bearings are really bad with contaminants, even if it's a recirculating type. Wipers/sweepers are typically used in dirty environments, but typically require frequent cleaning or replacing of the bearing.

    I'd be taking a long look at plastic dry self-lubricating bearings. Like machining a bushing out of Delrin AF for the top and bottom. Loves hard steel. Tolerant of contaminants. Dynamic friction is slightly higher than static friction so movement is smooth (it doesn't take off, or vibrate from slip-stick). Rather cheap, easily machined and tempered (heat treat it at low temp after machining).

  24. #24
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    It seems to me that that sort of design might work better if the rear end traveled on four tracks instead of two on a frame with something like this with the two front tracks in the same place and the rear tracks at or near the dropouts.

  25. #25
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    This thread gives me a headache.

    Also, what is that terrible bike with he rear rack thing? Any more details on that?

    It's like a road accident. Terrible, but...you can't look away.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    This thread gives me a headache.

    Also, what is that terrible bike with he rear rack thing? Any more details on that?

    It's like a road accident. Terrible, but...you can't look away.
    It's funny how individual perspectives differ. I think it's a wicked cool bike! It's out there for sure relative to conventional designs. It is a Tout Terrain offering with an integral rear rack, rear suspension, and a gear box. Its intended purpose is adventure touring. I have no idea how it rides, but I love when people stray from the norm with design in order to achieve goals.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaultbrad View Post
    I have no idea how it rides, but I love when people stray from the norm with design in order to achieve goals.

    Generally, I do too (the Chaparral 2j comes to mind) but it should also make sense. Could you use that bike for it's intended purpose with that many special parts? I would have to think long and hard about that, for sure.

  28. #28
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    FYI, there have been a number of fatbikes with XX1 on them. See blacksheep fully at NAHBS for example. Piece of cake. All you need is Wolftooth components XX1 ring and you are off. I have a middleburn compatible ring on a pair of middleburn fat cranks, but the cat's meow is his 30T 104BCD ring. Just took order of two of them.

  29. #29
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    Fat fully + remote air = win in my book. Only way to improve on that would be to add 2wd. I'm curious to see how that rear suspension works in practice. Specs say the bike is only 34 lbs.

  30. #30
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    34lbs? with all that extra air pressure gear with a double barrel coil spring shock,modified wider dual crown fork, with extra sliding rods, bearings and tubes, and Nates on Darryls?

    just the fork must add at least 3.5 pounds compared to a rigid carbon, especially after replacing the hollow welded H beam with individual stanchions, and triple tree clamps.

    the coil and shock weigh over 2 lbs themselves. then the steel shafts, hardware, aluminum tubes and linear ball bearings would add at least another 1.5 lbs to the frame

    the air pressure system with a 12 ounce tank weighs over 2 lbs.

    a full charge of compressed CO2 is 4-20 ounces for regular mtbs, I'm sure that has to be increased by a factor of 4 to have the same range for fat tires, so possibly over 3 lbs of compressed air will be on board when charged up. Maybe a 20 oz is enough for fat tires, but that is still over a pound of extra air.

    Imagine what this bike would weigh without the air pressure system or front and rear suspension. it would weigh 21-24lbs. Devise needs to make a regular fatbike.

  31. #31
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    I picked it up when I was at the booth, and it seemed lighter than the fully-rigid 9:zero:7 I raced on that day (39 pounds). Thats good enough weight savings for me.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    34lbs?
    The tank, tires and frame are filled with Helium....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  33. #33
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    I have a question.

    Can you ride a bike with CO2 tanks in sunny, 90+ degree Farenhiet weather?

    Is this not above the critical temperature/pressure for liquid CO2 tanks?

    I could imagine that downtube tank exploding right into someones leg.

  34. #34
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    I was under the impression the tanks were filled with regular air from a compressor. At least that was the impression when talking to the dude at the booth at Sea Otter.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I have a question.

    Can you ride a bike with CO2 tanks in sunny, 90+ degree Farenhiet weather?

    Is this not above the critical temperature/pressure for liquid CO2 tanks?

    I could imagine that downtube tank exploding right into someones leg.
    The sealed downtube of the frame acts as an expansion chamber for the CO2 to help regulate the temp and pressure. Seems like they could expand on this idea by using the top tube, too, and get rid of the fugly tank.

    More reading: SOC13: Devise Cycles? Radical Adaptrac Equipped Zeppelin Fatbike

  36. #36
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    Wow this bike is quite something!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    I have a question.

    Can you ride a bike with CO2 tanks in sunny, 90+ degree Farenhiet weather?

    Is this not above the critical temperature/pressure for liquid CO2 tanks?

    I could imagine that downtube tank exploding right into someones leg.
    You realize your car tires are filled with mostly CO2, right?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  38. #38
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    The pressure adjustment thing is novel and probably worth further development. The suspension design is atrocious and like failures of the early 90s, which I thought we'd gotten past. This uses a huge full shock with a 1:1 ratio, except those shocks aren't designed for 1:1 ratios and the valving is all messed up for it, even the minimal nitro/air charge in the CCDB likely becomes problematic at that low of a ratio. Seal friction, bushing friction, etc, all are magnified. Then you're also carrying around a huge 3" stroke shock, which weighs about 3x more than a good air shock that could be used with 4" of travel. The thing about the vertical path is right on too, a vertical travel path is generally not a good thing. Even horst-link bikes work in an arc, contrary to marketing. I remember I ditched my reba because it kept breaking. Yeah, front suspension on my 29er would be nice, if it worked. This is the same category, no way it's going to work reliably, and a rigid bike, while not as good as any decent suspension bike, beats a suspension bike that doesn't work.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  39. #39
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    Any ideas about the pricing of this Bike? Frame only?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    ...The suspension design is atrocious and like failures of the early 90s, which I thought we'd gotten past...
    Sums it up pretty well, but most mtb riders like stuff that looks "technical" so it's bound to sell.

    I must admit I've got a prejudiced eye though - I like my bikes simple.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You realize your car tires are filled with mostly CO2, right?
    most car(and bicycle, motorcycle, etc.) tires are filled with compressed air, which is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and small traces of other gasses make up the other 1% including Carbon Dioxide.

    CO2 is considered a trace gas at about 0.039% 390 PPM(partspermillion) by volume. it has been increasing though, due to the burning of fossil fuels, and other sources. About 50 years ago it was 0.034% or 340PPM. This is what makes the case for anthropogenic global warming.

    Serious professional race cars, and bicycles, etc use Nitrogen rich, dried air to fill tires because they think it is more stable in pressure. the truth is, that pretty much all gasses expand at the same rate with regard to temperature, according to the Ideal gas law:
    PV=nrT.
    The only thing that makes a difference is if there is a liquid involved. When a liquid evaporates it expands greatly in volume, increasing the pressure of a confined container.
    Air has water vapor, which condenses after being compressed, and cooled back to ambient temperature. The amount of liquid and water vapor varies with temperature, and makes the pressure change more drastically than the normal linear expansion rate. The nitrogen filled tires generally have a lot less water vapor, so pressure is more stable. If you used CO2 instead, the result would be pretty much the same.

    CO2 also becomes a liquid at a certain pressures and temperatures, allowing you to store a large volume of gas in a small space, by condensing into a liquid. Without this change in physical state, you can only store as much gas as the volume of the container times it's pressure. A 1L container at 1000psi holds the same amount of air as a 100L container at 10psi, where as a 1L container of liquid CO2 at roughly 1000psi at temperatures below 88*F can hold as much as 1L or 1.58Kg of CO2 liquid, which will expand to 510L of 10psi air, which is over 5 times as much air, so you must use a tank 5 times the size of a CO2 tank to get as much air at these pressures and temperatures.

    In the tires CO2 stays a gas. it weighs a little more than air, but not enough for even weight weenies to worry about. this is no problem at any temperature.

    The problem is that a CO2 tank containing liquid can rise rapidly in pressure after about 88*F, since it no longer remains a liquid at any pressure above that temperature. Most commercial tanks have vents, and will discharge the pressure, which also cools the tank down due to the evaporation and expansion, keeping the tank below a certain pressure, but losing some gas. the ones I know of vent at 3000 psi, but lighter(weaker) containers would need to vent at much lower pressures.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post
    most car(and bicycle, motorcycle, etc.) tires are filled with compressed air, which is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and small traces of other gasses make up the other 1% including Carbon Dioxide..
    Yeah, I screwed that up, I was thinking of N2, although I don't see why it couldn't be pressurized with N2, even if it doesn't work quite as well, it's widely available.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  43. #43
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    the main reason to use CO2 is that you can have enough to fill the tires a few cycles with a small tank, where as most other gasses, like nitrogen, oxygen, helium, hydrogen, etc. can't be liquified at reasonable pressures and temperatures.
    I suppose propane, and nitrous oxide, as well as several CFCs and HCFCs could do the same thing, but are either flammable or toxic. Well, I guess nitrous oxide isn't that flamable, and it's toxicity is kind of fun, so it would be a decent choice too.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by autodoctor911 View Post

    a full charge of compressed CO2 is 4-20 ounces for regular mtbs, I'm sure that has to be increased by a factor of 4 to have the same range for fat tires, so possibly over 3 lbs of compressed air will be on board when charged up. Maybe a 20 oz is enough for fat tires, but that is still over a pound of extra air.
    4-20oz!!?? A typical CO2 cartridge for MTB is 25 GRAMS. A 40g Big Air, which is propane, will fill a fatbike tire to around 12 psi.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    4-20oz!!?? A typical CO2 cartridge for MTB is 25 GRAMS. A 40g Big Air, which is propane, will fill a fatbike tire to around 12 psi.
    I was just going by what was listed an their website. they listed their systems as ranging from 4-20 ounces. I wasn't sure if the range was for just the regular bikes, or including the fat bikes. they did say that their system would be able to go through several cycles of inflating and deflating, so with no onboard compressor, a 20 oz tank would be good for about 7 cycles from 0-12psi(14-26psi absolute) for 2 tires on propane, or 3.5 cycles from 0-31psi(14-45psi absolute), to be consistent with your 40g to one tire at 12psi.

    I'm not sure of the volume of gas to liquid density difference between CO2 and propane, so this may be less with CO2.

    I'm sure they could tell you how many times you can inflate from one given pressure to another for a given tire size.

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