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  1. #1
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    E.13 Fatbike crankset

    I have a question about my crankset. My local bike shop installed the E.13 triple ring crankset with 145mm spindle and yesterday was my maiden voyage. about 4 miles into the ride the non-drive crank arm almost fell off. I was just about to the shop so I rode straight there and they tightened it back down for me. When I got back home I checked the torque setting and it had either loosened back up or they did not torque it to specs because when doing so it would basically freeze the crankset up and not spin freely.

    Here is what I found out from the shop. They used two 2.5mm spacers on the drive side. On the non-drive side they said they did not need to use any spacers between the bottom bracket and the frame. According to your website instructions I should have needed two spacers on the drive side and one on the non-drive side. If you do this the spindle is not long enough to get the proper torque without compressing it so tight that the cranks will not move. Even without the 2.5mm spacer on the non-drive side I cannot torque the crank arm bolt to the 40-47NM as it freezes up the crank (yes I am using the wavy washer). Interestingly if I torque it down without the washer it will torque properly and the crank spins freely but I know this is not the proper setup.

    My bike is a Salsa Mukluk 3 with a 100mm bottom bracket shell.

    Is it possible that the bottom bracket spindle may have been under sized and not be long enough?

  2. #2
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    Another question. Are there different versions of the E.13 external bottom brackets? Looking on their website the bottom bracket looks silver in color for the 3x9 XC crankset yet the bottom bracket that was installed is black.

  3. #3
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    It is possible. The bb shell is another possible culprit. Was the bb shell faced? If it was not faced I would have that done. How is your clearance on the drive side? If it has been faced and you have room you could try a 2.5 and a 2 mm (1.5mm) spacer on the drive side and nothing on the non drive side. As you said you can get the torque without the wavy washer so you are really close.

    Good luck,
    Steven

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride View Post

    My bike is a Salsa Mukluk 3 with a 100mm bottom bracket shell.

    Is it possible that the bottom bracket spindle may have been under sized and not be long enough?
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  4. #4
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    There is another bb, it is a considered a downhill bottom bracket, I have not seen one in person so I cannot speak to the differences. That could be an issue.

    Cheers,
    Steven

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride View Post
    Another question. Are there different versions of the E.13 external bottom brackets? Looking on their website the bottom bracket looks silver in color for the 3x9 XC crankset yet the bottom bracket that was installed is black.
    Lucky neighbor of Maryland's Patapsco Valley State Park, 39.23,-76.76 Flickr

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoo View Post
    There is another bb, it is a considered a downhill bottom bracket, I have not seen on in person so I cannot speak to the differences. That could be an issue.



    Cheers,
    Steven

    The bottom bracket they installed is definitely the downhill version. In looking online it sounds like the downhill bottom bracket cups are specifically designed for the downhill crank which leads me to believe they may be wider and this is why the shop ended up not using the non-drive bottom bracket spacer as shown in the E.13 directions. It caused damage to the crank spindle when it came loose so it's pretty disappointing all the way around.

  6. #6
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    Thats a total bummer. Hopefully it is not ruined, your shop should be able to get you sorted out.

    Let us know how it turns out.

    Cheers,
    Steven

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride View Post
    The bottom bracket they installed is definitely the downhill version. In looking online it sounds like the downhill bottom bracket cups are specifically designed for the downhill crank which leads me to believe they may be wider and this is why the shop ended up not using the non-drive bottom bracket spacer as shown in the E.13 directions. It caused damage to the crank spindle when it came loose so it's pretty disappointing all the way around.
    Lucky neighbor of Maryland's Patapsco Valley State Park, 39.23,-76.76 Flickr

  7. #7
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    Don't worry too much about having it set up exactly as the manual says- just arrange the spacers however it is necessary to achieve the proper bearing preload and keep the cranks centered relative to the chainstays.

  8. #8
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    I can't remember if the muk uses a e type der. If so that takes the place of one spacer. Sooo the configuration would be 1 spacer on each side. Disregard this if I have no idea what I am talking about.

  9. #9
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    It does not use an E type dérailleur.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy FitzGibbon View Post
    Don't worry too much about having it set up exactly as the manual says- just arrange the spacers however it is necessary to achieve the proper bearing preload and keep the cranks centered relative to the chainstays.
    The bottom bracket should be properly installed per the manufacturers directions. I don't think they were able to install it using two spacers on the drive side and one on the non drive due to different overall spacing of the downhill bracket. Even with one 2.5mm spacing being left out the crank arm will not torque down properly with the wavy washer. I am sure the shop will properly take care of it. I think it was just a simple mistake of not realizing it was a downhill bracket.

    We will see.

  11. #11
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    I had something similar happen to me. 2 hrs into my first ride. I caught it before it became a big issue. I should have known better than to ride so long w/o checking.

    You or better still, your shop should reach out to the "by the Hive" guys. Charlie was a big help, in fact I need to send him a reply to let him know.

    Read below with a grain of salt, really, call the Hive guys.

    I am not sure what my ultimate fix was. I may have torqued to the "number" on the crank, only "ft-lbs", not "N-m"! My money is on that for my case. Either way, I should have checked the torque after 15 minutes of riding.

    Or it was the "white" spacers. Not the 2.5mm black spacers that go under the BB cups, but the ones that go on with the wavy washer. I think they serve to set the pre-load. Depending on your particular actual BB shell width, you might need more or less of the "white" 0.5mm spacers (washers?). I had "movement" with the two that came from Salsa build-up. How much movement is OK, can't say, I am not qualified to say. But that hasn't stopped me before :-)

    The guys at the Pedal Power Shop in Lexington, KY,http://pedalpowerbikeshop.com/ helped me out like champs and gave me a bunch of spare BB30 0.5mm spacers. It only took one additional spacer to stop the movement. That said, maybe my bearing preload force is now too high. Time will tell on that.

    To summarize, call the Hive guys for your particular situation.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride View Post
    The bottom bracket should be properly installed per the manufacturers directions.
    What I meant was that you don't need to worry about where the spacers end up being needed to align the crankset properly. For instance, when I set mine up, I had to use all three under the drive side cup to allow the crank to clear the chainstay on that side.

    The number of spacers needed shouldn't change, though, so if you can't fit three in and have it work something is definitely wrong. The shop should cover it. On these cranks it's pretty obvious whether you have the arm torqued properly or not, even if you don't use a torque wrench (though of course you should).

  13. #13
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    I just installed mine (set up as SS), and even after checking the spacers (2x2.5 on the drive side, 1x2.5 on non-drive side) and torque settings several times, the crank takes effort to spin- way to much. Very disappointing, considering the price. Hopefully they read this thread like the chain suck one and give some answers.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    I just installed mine (set up as SS), and even after checking the spacers (2x2.5 on the drive side, 1x2.5 on non-drive side) and torque settings several times, the crank takes effort to spin- way to much. Very disappointing, considering the price. Hopefully they read this thread like the chain suck one and give some answers.
    As long as you installed the correct amount of the thin .5mm washers between the left crank arm and the bearing plus wavy washer you should be fine as they do take a little time for the BB to break in to spin free.
    Last edited by bdundee; 02-09-2012 at 07:48 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    I just installed mine (set up as SS), and even after checking the spacers (2x2.5 on the drive side, 1x2.5 on non-drive side) and torque settings several times, the crank takes effort to spin- way to much. Very disappointing, considering the price. Hopefully they read this thread like the chain suck one and give some answers.
    The bearing preload is adjusted with the 0.5mm spacers, not with the cup (2.5mm spacers). Remove one 0.5mm spacer and see what you get.

  16. #16
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    In my experience, the directions suggested too many spacers. This resulted in the left crank arm falling off within 10 miles. It was a ti frame made to proper spec. I now feel these are excessively finicky cranks and don't go out of my way to suggest them.

  17. #17
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    The manufacturers instructions assume a 100mm bb shell. No more, no less. Check the width of the shell. If it's wider than 100, either have it faced or remove the difference in spacers. If it's narrower add the difference in spacers.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean salach View Post
    The manufacturers instructions assume a 100mm bb shell. No more, no less. Check the width of the shell. If it's wider than 100, either have it faced or remove the difference in spacers. If it's narrower add the difference in spacers.
    Yes, but what if the bb shell is right on? Any system that is that picky is junk in my book. But they are junk in my book anyway, proprietary bottom bracket and skinny little arms do nothing for me. Why are these considered high end? Just because they are expensive? Sorry, I've got no faith after seeing a friends arm fall off at the start of our ride. An $8K fat bike shouldn't have those kind of problems.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by atom29 View Post
    Why are these considered high end?
    I would guess that it's because they are the lightest fatbike triple crankset available.

    It seems like a lot of folks don't understand how to set up and adjust these cranks properly. The left side arm bolt must always be torqued to what is listed in the directions, so that it seats completely on its interface. If it isn't, the arm will be loose on the interface and will fall off. You can't use the bolt to adjust bearing preload like you would with a Shimano or Mr. Whirly crank. That is what the wavy washer and the 0.5mm spacers are for. If the cranks don't turn freely when assembled as per the instructions, you need to remove one or more 0.5mm spacers, no matter how many the instructions recommend.

  20. #20
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    I have seen an E13 non drive side crank arm come loose. It turned out to be too many washers. I could not comment on which washers they were, as it was not my bike and I did not do the work on it. Make sure that the crank is set up correctly and double check the BB shell.

  21. #21
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    I finally got it all squared away. 2 x 2.5 mm on the drive side, 1 x 2.5 mm on the non drive side, plus a 1 mm cassette spacer, and then one of the plastic shims- no spring washer. torqued down perfectly, no slop or wobble, and spins with very little drag.

  22. #22
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    Ranger Pride, how did you end up getting this resolved? I'm having a baically identical problem. The BB on my Mukluk seized up and was replaced by my shop, but the BB they gave me looks like the black downhill version and not the silver version that was originally on the bike. I installed it, and the cranks don't spin. Fiddling with the wavy washer and 0.5mm washers gets me nowhere. Without any washers it spins fine, but there is play. With one or more washers, it's too tight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride View Post
    I have a question about my crankset. My local bike shop installed the E.13 triple ring crankset with 145mm spindle and yesterday was my maiden voyage. about 4 miles into the ride the non-drive crank arm almost fell off. I was just about to the shop so I rode straight there and they tightened it back down for me. When I got back home I checked the torque setting and it had either loosened back up or they did not torque it to specs because when doing so it would basically freeze the crankset up and not spin freely.

    Here is what I found out from the shop. They used two 2.5mm spacers on the drive side. On the non-drive side they said they did not need to use any spacers between the bottom bracket and the frame. According to your website instructions I should have needed two spacers on the drive side and one on the non-drive side. If you do this the spindle is not long enough to get the proper torque without compressing it so tight that the cranks will not move. Even without the 2.5mm spacer on the non-drive side I cannot torque the crank arm bolt to the 40-47NM as it freezes up the crank (yes I am using the wavy washer). Interestingly if I torque it down without the washer it will torque properly and the crank spins freely but I know this is not the proper setup.

    My bike is a Salsa Mukluk 3 with a 100mm bottom bracket shell.

    Is it possible that the bottom bracket spindle may have been under sized and not be long enough?

  23. #23
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    The Black BB is wider, depending on your bike you may be able to make it work with one of the spacers between the cups and the frame. You certainly will not be able to use all three. What is your spacer set up now?

    Steven

    Quote Originally Posted by Shep Huntwood View Post
    Ranger Pride, how did you end up getting this resolved? I'm having a baically identical problem. The BB on my Mukluk seized up and was replaced by my shop, but the BB they gave me looks like the black downhill version and not the silver version that was originally on the bike. I installed it, and the cranks don't spin. Fiddling with the wavy washer and 0.5mm washers gets me nowhere. Without any washers it spins fine, but there is play. With one or more washers, it's too tight.
    Lucky neighbor of Maryland's Patapsco Valley State Park, 39.23,-76.76 Flickr

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep Huntwood View Post
    Ranger Pride, how did you end up getting this resolved? I'm having a baically identical problem. The BB on my Mukluk seized up and was replaced by my shop, but the BB they gave me looks like the black downhill version and not the silver version that was originally on the bike. I installed it, and the cranks don't spin. Fiddling with the wavy washer and 0.5mm washers gets me nowhere. Without any washers it spins fine, but there is play. With one or more washers, it's too tight.
    They ordered me the correct bottom bracket and all was fine. Ended up selling that Mukluk and now have the 2013 Mukluk 2 with the E13 double crankset.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by atom29 View Post
    Yes, but what if the bb shell is right on? Any system that is that picky is junk in my book. But they are junk in my book anyway, proprietary bottom bracket and skinny little arms do nothing for me. Why are these considered high end? Just because they are expensive? Sorry, I've got no faith after seeing a friends arm fall off at the start of our ride. An $8K fat bike shouldn't have those kind of problems.
    Wow $8k on a fat bike? What all is in the build? Good god


    As far as the quality if e13... I've been using mine since the day they came out and have easily over 1500 miles. Never a problem--I'm surprised reading about the crank arms falling off and so many issues with chain suck and surprised to hear the the set up is working so poorly for others. For those of you who have had multiple cranks What do you guys think is better about the other leading models? (Race face etc).

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoo View Post
    The Black BB is wider, depending on your bike you may be able to make it work with one of the spacers between the cups and the frame. You certainly will not be able to use all three. What is your spacer set up now?

    Steven
    The black BB is wider, yes, and my shop told me I'd need to remove a 2.5mm spacer to make up for the difference. I did, but still no dice.

  27. #27
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    Thanks for the response. I'll see if the shop has the correct BB once they open back up after the holiday. Gotta get the back back in action before the snow falls here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride View Post
    They ordered me the correct bottom bracket and all was fine. Ended up selling that Mukluk and now have the 2013 Mukluk 2 with the E13 double crankset.

  28. #28
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    Sorry but most of the issues sound like incorrect spacers, shims, or bb in this case.


    When everything is setup properly, there is a hard stop when bolt is cranked down, and they should spin fairly easy.

    Over 2000 miles on mine no issues.

  29. #29
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    The black pair is closer to 5 mm wider. How many spacers do you still have on the bb? Did you start with three and only remove one? If you have two left, take out one. Check your chainline to see you if you would be better with no spacer drive side or no spacer on non-drive side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shep Huntwood View Post
    The black BB is wider, yes, and my shop told me I'd need to remove a 2.5mm spacer to make up for the difference. I did, but still no dice.
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  30. #30
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    I have not had crank arm issues but I do have the BB bearing issues that have been noted in other threads as well as an annoying creak coming from the crank now. I have tried installing another new BB set from a 68-73mm e-13 crank that I just bought on clear out sale, but I still get the same creaking when a lot of torque is applied to the pedals. I have checked the fit of the BB bearing inner race on the crank shaft and I think this is where the creaking is coming from. I can actually see a discolouration of the crank where it rides in the bearing.
    2010 Intense Spider 2
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaxx4 View Post
    I have not had crank arm issues but I do have the BB bearing issues that have been noted in other threads as well as an annoying creak coming from the crank now. I have tried installing another new BB set from a 68-73mm e-13 crank that I just bought on clear out sale, but I still get the same creaking when a lot of torque is applied to the pedals. I have checked the fit of the BB bearing inner race on the crank shaft and I think this is where the creaking is coming from. I can actually see a discolouration of the crank where it rides in the bearing.
    dbl check chain ring bolts?

  32. #32
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    A couple of general thoughts;

    - There are many people that look at directions for something as if they are Black & White. I actually can't remember the last time I looked at directions for a bike component, but I digress. Directions are seldom Black & White. When they dont work, what now? First you have to understand how a given system works, and then DO WHAT IS NECESSARY to MAKE it work. What works right in front of you is what works. When it is working, what's the question?

    - I have no experience with the E13 cranks other than reading about the problems with them, but it sounds like they use spacers to set preload, and if those spacers do not match the free space available, they don't work right. Not a very good system if you ask me, since it is a crap shoot if you will have the proper spacer width for every situation. Use feeler gauges and sand your spacers down to fit perfectly? Sounds like people are using the spacers suggested and when they don't fit right, they are backing off on the bolt tourque to get them to spin freely. That is a recipe for failure! I have both Shimano and Race Face X-bearing cranks in other bikes. They were no brain simple to install, and I have never touched them since I put them in. Some companies have it figured out. Some haven't, apparently.

    - Cartridge bearings will not spin as freely as, say, a wheel. There is very little mass in a crank, and even a slight bit of preload, along with the grease in the bearings, will cause drag. You have to expect and accept some of that drag. They will also loosen up after some mileage
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvphatty View Post
    dbl check chain ring bolts?
    Yes. At first that is what I thought it was so I disassembled and cleaned all surfaces. The creaking happens in both small and mid ring. I have removed the big ring for bash guard.
    2010 Intense Spider 2
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrailMaker View Post
    A couple of general thoughts;

    - There are many people that look at directions for something as if they are Black & White. I actually can't remember the last time I looked at directions for a bike component, but I digress. Directions are seldom Black & White. When they dont work, what now? First you have to understand how a given system works, and then DO WHAT IS NECESSARY to MAKE it work. What works right in front of you is what works. When it is working, what's the question?

    - I have no experience with the E13 cranks other than reading about the problems with them, but it sounds like they use spacers to set preload, and if those spacers do not match the free space available, they don't work right. Not a very good system if you ask me, since it is a crap shoot if you will have the proper spacer width for every situation. Use feeler gauges and sand your spacers down to fit perfectly? Sounds like people are using the spacers suggested and when they don't fit right, they are backing off on the bolt tourque to get them to spin freely. That is a recipe for failure! I have both Shimano and Race Face X-bearing cranks in other bikes. They were no brain simple to install, and I have never touched them since I put them in. Some companies have it figured out. Some haven't, apparently.

    - Cartridge bearings will not spin as freely as, say, a wheel. There is very little mass in a crank, and even a slight bit of preload, along with the grease in the bearings, will cause drag. You have to expect and accept some of that drag. They will also loosen up after some mileage
    The wavy and the shim washers are designed to take up the remaining play in the crank movement from "side to side", correct? These washers take up the gap and put pressure against the side shields. They really are not intended to take-up any slop in the over all fit of the BB bearing inner race and the crank. I think this is where I'm getting my creaking from as the crank has some movement up and down/ fore and back as I'm pedalling in torque situations.
    2010 Intense Spider 2
    2010 Ibis Tranny SS
    2012 Salsa Mukluk 2
    2013 Salsa Spearfish 1
    2013 Trek Domane 5.2
    2014 Hakkalugi

  35. #35
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    I've got things working properly now. The shop did give me the wrong bottom bracket. The DH and XC versions are not interchangeable.

  36. #36
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    No bash guard

    My Beargrease came with this E13 crankset. Turns out there is no way to put a bash guard on it. Poor design.

  37. #37
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    Get an MRP XCG

    Anyone have an actual weight on the 2x version?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR2ebike View Post
    Get an MRP XCG

    Anyone have an actual weight on the 2x version?
    Yes, I've been in contact with MRP trying to determine which one I should use for the 36 tooth ring. The 2013 Mukluck comes with the MRP guard on the e13 crankset. Kind of turned off by them as a freind had one and without the ISG mount, it kept spinning after impacts no matter how tight you tightened the Outside BB cups.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilboy View Post
    My Beargrease came with this E13 crankset. Turns out there is no way to put a bash guard on it. Poor design.
    This thread was started with regards to the triple e.13 crank which I am pretty sure is not what comes on the beargrease. There are plenty of bash guard options for the triple, some which replace the large chainring and some which don't. I am using the salsa tooth fairy on mine and it works great.
    Whatever floats your bike, dude

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    This thread was started with regards to the triple e.13 crank which I am pretty sure is not what comes on the beargrease. There are plenty of bash guard options for the triple, some which replace the large chainring and some which don't. I am using the salsa tooth fairy on mine and it works great.
    Just for clarification, and hopefully to recenter the conversation, the Beargrease comes with the new e.13 double, and therefore doesn't have the third ring mounting option. Thus if a bashgaurd was wanted, the frame mounted options would have to suffice.

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