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  1. #1
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    Disturbing trend from Interbike...

    There's been a whole lot of excitement about all the carbon stuff coming to fatbikes. But look a little deeper at the pictures from interbike and you'll notice one sad fact: all the tires are still the same.

    Unless I'm missing something, all the big tire manufacturers are still sitting this one out. No Continental, no michelin, no maxxis, no one. Other than one new tire from Specialized, there's no interest in fat tires from the big boys.

    Perhaps it's easier to make a 450g carbon rim (and charge $5k for a set) then it is to make a lighter fat bike tire. Or perhaps, the tire manufacturers still see fat bikes as a fad.

    Either way, as cool (or meh) as all the stratospherically priced carbon is, it ain't going anywhere without tires. And right now, the fatbike market/community is pretty much held hostage by QBP's purchasing agents, who seem to order tires by the dozens, not by the thousands.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    There's been a whole lot of excitement about all the carbon stuff coming to fatbikes. But look a little deeper at the pictures from interbike and you'll notice one sad fact: all the tires are still the same.

    Unless I'm missing something, all the big tire manufacturers are still sitting this one out. No Continental, no michelin, no maxxis, no one. Other than one new tire from Specialized, there's no interest in fat tires from the big boys.

    Perhaps it's easier to make a 450g carbon rim (and charge $5k for a set) then it is to make a lighter fat bike tire. Or perhaps, the tire manufacturers still see fat bikes as a fad.

    Either way, as cool (or meh) as all the stratospherically priced carbon is, it ain't going anywhere without tires. And right now, the fatbike market/community is pretty much held hostage by QBP's purchasing agents, who seem to order tires by the dozens, not by the thousands.
    Actually the few Fat Boy's that I saw were still using Bud n Lou, so no new tires from Spesh either.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  3. #3
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    Ohhh Bender



    Also the new Fatback sterling

    But yeah... no big name tire companies... still lots of new choices with everything.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  4. #4
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    Agreed, I need a carbon fatbike as much as I need Jimmie Johnsons stock car to get to and from work. Unless your part of the 2% that is a serious competive fatbike racer, your only buying a carbon fatbike for the "oh look at me" factor. Tires however, I do want and could use. I think tires will get there eventually, it's just gonna take time and demand.
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  5. #5
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    Agree completely. But on the other hand I think Fatback may have hit a home run at least for the 4" market and I am very excited about obtaining a set of the Fatback/Vee rubber 4.25" tires. I am a huge fan of Continental tires but I'm not holding my breath waiting for their offering.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armyballer View Post
    Agreed, I need a carbon fatbike as much as I need Jimmie Johnsons stock car to get to and from work. Unless your part of the 2% that is a serious competitive fatbike racer, your only buying a carbon fatbike for the "oh look at me" factor.
    what were the ramblings when the CF 26 & 29er offerings hit the scene yrs ago? now they are common place amongst the everyday enthusiast that has no interest in racing but rather enjoys the sport and cool stuff.
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  7. #7
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    <<< Rubba fetish here.... please Schwalbe, a fat Racing Ralph or Nobby Nick or Hans Dampf....
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx View Post
    <<< Rubba fetish here.... please Schwalbe, a fat Racing Ralph or Nobby Nick or Hans Dampf....
    trojan may have what you seek.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

  9. #9
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    I like carbon and think the prices are anywhere from reasonbly inflated (Borealis frame) to absurdly inflated (Borealis rim).

    I am also unimpressed with the lack of new rubber, you're right buckfiddious. Would love to see Schwalbe's take on one, I love their Big Apple tires.
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  10. #10
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    Part of it for me is that I'm tired of surly and 45nrth running out of stock 10 minutes after the tire is released from the mold.

  11. #11
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    Pretty much sucks. How long have Fatbikes been around now? +5 years right?.
    And the big manufactures like Schwalbe or Conti didn't manage to offer even one
    fat tyre? Totally retarded. Must be real sticky working in the rubber business..

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    Perhaps it's easier to make a 450g carbon rim (and charge $5k for a set) then it is to make a lighter fat bike tire. Or perhaps, the tire manufacturers still see fat bikes as a fad.

    Either way, as cool (or meh) as all the stratospherically priced carbon is, it ain't going anywhere without tires. And right now, the fatbike market/community is pretty much held hostage by QBP's purchasing agents, who seem to order tires by the dozens, not by the thousands.
    The sense of entitlement around here is getting to be staggering.

    "Held hostage"? Is that your way of being grateful that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with?

    Maybe I'm reading you wrong--written word lacking context and all that?

    I neither want nor see a need for lighter tires. The lightest ones we have now are already throwaway--at least the way people are using them.

    Maybe when the 'fad' part of this dies off and people get their heads screwed back on straight it'll start to make more sense. Fatbikes excel when flotation is needed. That's it. When flotation is secondary they are a heavier, costlier alternative to the well-evolved mountain bikes that preceded them. If you want a lighter tire this probably means that you're worried about speed, in which case a true MTB would better suit you. You just wouldn't get nearly as many 'ooo lookit' comments in the parking lot.

    /rant

  13. #13
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    i think conti are pretty much red lining to bring the black chili 29 (and 27.5 now) to market ... and i dont think its for lack of desire to do so!

    i cant imagine in this economic climate any company no matter how large they might *seem* has the money to risk on a whole horde of VERY expensive soon-to-be-unsold tyres.

    surly took that risk (as did 45n and a few others) and for that they should be congratulated. other tyre anufacturers would have to 'unseat' if you pardon the pun an established (albeit relatively unique) market leader who already HAS a very good product!...it would be a massive risk!...

    i for one am just glad surly keep doing what they do....rock on surly!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    Ohhh Bender



    Also the new Fatback sterling

    But yeah... no big name tire companies... still lots of new choices with everything.
    I like the look of this tire for snow. Anyone know if it will fit on RD rims on a alu Beargrease?
    “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.”

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The sense of entitlement around here is getting to be staggering.

    "Held hostage"? Is that your way of being grateful that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with?

    Maybe I'm reading you wrong--written word lacking context and all that?

    I neither want nor see a need for lighter tires. The lightest ones we have now are already throwaway--at least the way people are using them.

    Maybe when the 'fad' part of this dies off and people get their heads screwed back on straight it'll start to make more sense. Fatbikes excel when flotation is needed. That's it. When flotation is secondary they are a heavier, costlier alternative to the well-evolved mountain bikes that preceded them. If you want a lighter tire this probably means that you're worried about speed, in which case a true MTB would better suit you. You just wouldn't get nearly as many 'ooo lookit' comments in the parking lot.

    /rant
    I don't have to be grateful to QBP- I bought one of their bikes. But when you consider that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with, you might think they'd be interested in recouping some of those costs with better availability.

    If QBP makes 99% of the fatbike tires available, then yes, they hold the market hostage. they've got a captive audience. Folks scream bloody murder at the thought of proprietary standards coming from major manufacturers, but for all intents and purposes, that's what we've got here- one manufacturer makes most of the frames, forks, rims and tires. Until someone else starts making tires, we have to take QBP's word for the fact that they are making the best tires they can at the best price possible.

    I don't want lighter tires, I want tires that are available in January.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dRjOn View Post

    surly took that risk (as did 45n and a few others) and for that they should be congratulated. other tyre anufacturers would have to 'unseat' if you pardon the pun an established (albeit relatively unique) market leader who already HAS a very good product!...it would be a massive risk!...

    i for one am just glad surly keep doing what they do....rock on surly!
    +1 - I'm happy to see Surly came out with the Dirt Wizard in 26+ and 29+ sizes. I'll be ordering up a set for my Krampus.

    I may also get my GF a set of 26+ DWs for her Pugsley so she has a low cost summer setup for her bike.
    Safe riding,

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    I don't have to be grateful to QBP- I bought one of their bikes. But when you consider that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with, you might think they'd be interested in recouping some of those costs with better availability.

    If QBP makes 99% of the fatbike tires available, then yes, they hold the market hostage. they've got a captive audience. Folks scream bloody murder at the thought of proprietary standards coming from major manufacturers, but for all intents and purposes, that's what we've got here- one manufacturer makes most of the frames, forks, rims and tires. Until someone else starts making tires, we have to take QBP's word for the fact that they are making the best tires they can at the best price possible.

    I don't want lighter tires, I want tires that are available in January.
    Tires are available NOW, and have been all summer. Just because your LBS doesn't see the value in stocking them, or because you (perhaps?) choose not to support your LBS, doesn't mean they aren't available.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    I like the look of this tire for snow. Anyone know if it will fit on RD rims on a alu Beargrease?
    We (and Vee) designed it as a specialized snow tire. A tiny bit smaller than Lou in order to make it fit where Lou barely rubs under load (like our Mk2 bikes). 6mm knob height. Also, production versions will have holes for up to 300 studs (at least that is the plan). It might fit the Beargrease, but can't guarantee anything, as it was designed for our Diamant/Nakamura frames (and as a side effect, the Motobecane rebadged Diamants...)
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Tires are available NOW,
    +1 - I've bought 6 Surly fat tires over the last 18 months, but I always got what I wanted within a reasonable time.
    Safe riding,

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espen W View Post
    We (and Vee) designed it as a specialized snow tire. A tiny bit smaller than Lou in order to make it fit where Lou barely rubs under load (like our Mk2 bikes). 6mm knob height. Also, production versions will have holes for up to 300 studs (at least that is the plan). It might fit the Beargrease, but can't guarantee anything, as it was designed for our Diamant/Nakamura frames (and as a side effect, the Motobecane rebadged Diamants...)
    Thanks do you have any real life mounted measurements?

  21. #21
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    I agree with mikesee that fat tires are for floating, but people want a fatbike to be the jack-of-all-trades. It excels at floating, and maybe tires should be further developed to be tubeless, and really be able to flatten out when aired down.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdundee View Post
    Thanks do you have any real life mounted measurements?
    Not yet, the one in the picture is the first prototype, straight off the mold.
    Can't wait to get my hands on them.
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  23. #23
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    Personally, I am yet to see a fatbike in person, and by " in person", I mean in that world outside of the interwebs. Are fatbikes a fad? Maybe. Are they a very niche product? I'd say so. Being a niche product I don't expect to see the major companies all jumping on board right away, especially at a time when they are rapidly tooling up their 27.5 production. I can remember trying to find 29er tires 10 years ago. It's safe to say that choice was limited, despite there being a fair few of us riding 29ers locally. I imagine the fatbike market is currently in a similar situation.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    I like the look of this tire for snow. Anyone know if it will fit on RD rims on a alu Beargrease?
    If the snowshow fits a Mukluk, has stud holes, and isn't too heavy its the only winter tire I need (at any price).
    --Peace

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    I don't have to be grateful to QBP- I bought one of their bikes. But when you consider that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with, you might think they'd be interested in recouping some of those costs with better availability.

    If QBP makes 99% of the fatbike tires available, then yes, they hold the market hostage. they've got a captive audience. Folks scream bloody murder at the thought of proprietary standards coming from major manufacturers, but for all intents and purposes, that's what we've got here- one manufacturer makes most of the frames, forks, rims and tires. Until someone else starts making tires, we have to take QBP's word for the fact that they are making the best tires they can at the best price possible.

    I don't want lighter tires, I want tires that are available in January.
    Hey guys -

    I just wanted to add one thing here. I think there is a belief that QBP as a whole is restricting availability, or not doing the best job possible for fat tires.

    This is a difficult market, and with a very special set of equipment. There was an enormous investment in capital just to make the tires, and of course we want to sell as many as we can to recoup that.

    The special machines used to make the tires are running non-stop, and literally making as many possible tires in a given year as they are mechanically able to. We purchase and bring into inventory every possible tire that is available to us, yet demand is still outstripping supply on some models.

    I feel there is a lot of thought here that our buyers are not doing their best - I assure they are, and I just want to make sure that is clear.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars_D View Post
    If the snowshow fits a Mukluk, has stud holes, and isn't too heavy its the only winter tire I need (at any price).
    Ditto, if it fits a beargrease
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  27. #27
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    I was looking at the interbike page. Looks like a lot of new offerings coming soon. Even a possible electric drive. Why electric? I have no idea. Can't go greener the human body at work.

    I think fatties are still looked on as a fad. The aftermarket will jump on the bandwagon once more major players step up for their slice of the fatty pie.

    Yum!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armyballer View Post
    Unless your part of the 2% that is a serious competive fatbike racer, your only buying a carbon fatbike for the "oh look at me" factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Maybe when the 'fad' part of this dies off and people get their heads screwed back on straight it'll start to make more sense. Fatbikes excel when flotation is needed. That's it. When flotation is secondary they are a heavier, costlier alternative to the well-evolved mountain bikes that preceded them. If you want a lighter tire this probably means that you're worried about speed, in which case a true MTB would better suit you. You just wouldn't get nearly as many 'ooo lookit' comments in the parking lot.

    /rant
    I disagree with this and find it slightly insulting. Reducing a bike to a tool to be used just for transportation or racing probably leaves out 70% of the mountain bikers who ride for primarily for some combination of exercise/recreation/fun.

    My higher-end, lighter fatbike is much more enjoyable to ride than my Pugsley, handles better and the components all work better. It's faster, too, and I appreciate that even if I don't race. I ride by myself most of the time, and don't give a crap if anyone looks at me or my bike. I built it up myself, and appreciate the nice parts for their engineering and their aesthetics.

    As far as a fatbike not being the best tool for the "job". F that, my "job" when I'm riding is to have fun. The pseudo-scientific discussions of the pros/cons of skinny vs fat tires are interesting on paper (or on the internet), but don't necessarily carry over into one's riding experience. The implication that anyone who rides a fatbike on anything other than snow or sand is doing it just for the attention is insulting and just plain wrong. Stability, traction and forgiving handling in the dirt are attributes of my fatbike that outweigh any of the downsides (which are rapidly disappearing with each new advancement).

    Psychoanalyzing one person's motivations/intentions is extremely difficult in person, even if you're trained in it. Analyzing a whole group of people over the internet is harder still. Feel free to try it, but expect some pushback when you get it wrong.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    I disagree with this and find it slightly insulting. Reducing a bike to a tool to be used just for transportation or racing probably leaves out 70% of the mountain bikers who ride for primarily for some combination of exercise/recreation/fun.

    My higher-end, lighter fatbike is much more enjoyable to ride than my Pugsley, handles better and the components all work better. It's faster, too, and I appreciate that even if I don't race. I ride by myself most of the time, and don't give a crap if anyone looks at me or my bike. I built it up myself, and appreciate the nice parts for their engineering and their aesthetics.

    As far as a fatbike not being the best tool for the "job". F that, my "job" when I'm riding is to have fun. The pseudo-scientific discussions of the pros/cons of skinny vs fat tires are interesting on paper (or on the internet), but don't necessarily carry over into one's riding experience. The implication that anyone who rides a fatbike on anything other than snow or sand is doing it just for the attention is insulting and just plain wrong. Stability, traction and forgiving handling in the dirt are attributes of my fatbike that outweigh any of the downsides (which are rapidly disappearing with each new advancement).

    Psychoanalyzing one person's motivations/intentions is extremely difficult in person, even if you're trained in it. Analyzing a whole group of people over the internet is harder still. Feel free to try it, but expect some pushback when you get it wrong.
    +1

    You put the words in my mouth after reading both of those posts as well.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Tires are available NOW, and have been all summer. Just because your LBS doesn't see the value in stocking them, or because you (perhaps?) choose not to support your LBS, doesn't mean they aren't available.
    In our case, we have $200 bud and Lou's, and non existent HuDu's

    ... we get your scraps.

    Unless buying from a LBS at ridiculous prices.

    Fatbikes are not "here" yet, so we are going to pay premium prices.
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  31. #31
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    In the short time that I have owned it I find that my Fatback is my do anything bike. And no other bike I own puts a bigger smile on my face, more often, than it does. The enjoyment is really the essence of what cycling is all about for me. I like to say that "I run so I can eat, but I bike for fun". I have raced (casually) as well and I can say that the race on the Fatback this year was more enjoyable overall than the same race on my full suss carbon wunder bike last year. Just sayin...

  32. #32
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    mtuck.... i sold my 3 month old super Pivot 429, it was ridden ~15 times then sat there for 6 months without even being touched while i plodded around on my mukluk, since then ive been on my second for nearly a year. Sell the unridden while they are worth something.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post

    I don't want lighter tires, I want tires that are available in January.
    Curious...
    When was the last time you had your shop check the availability of 45nrth/Surly tires?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chequamagon View Post
    Hey guys -

    I just wanted to add one thing here. I think there is a belief that QBP as a whole is restricting availability, or not doing the best job possible for fat tires.

    This is a difficult market, and with a very special set of equipment. There was an enormous investment in capital just to make the tires, and of course we want to sell as many as we can to recoup that.

    The special machines used to make the tires are running non-stop, and literally making as many possible tires in a given year as they are mechanically able to. We purchase and bring into inventory every possible tire that is available to us, yet demand is still outstripping supply on some models.

    I feel there is a lot of thought here that our buyers are not doing their best - I assure they are, and I just want to make sure that is clear.
    It's a growing market. Rapidly, I would say so. It's not like we are going to trash our bikes..
    How different of equipment you need and how 'special' from a 'regular' tyre are we talking here? It's a tyre, no?

    Anyways, what are you talking about, spammer?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgould View Post
    Anyways, what are you talking about, spammer?
    What are you talking about???

    He's giving actual insight on the process of tire production at QBP.


    Ughhh... this is turning into a 1 step forward, 2 steps back thread.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake Adventure View Post
    Curious...
    When was the last time you had your shop check the availability of 45nrth/Surly tires?
    Usually in the winter, when I need them. But yeah, y'all are right, they are available right now.

    I've said it before, I'm mostly a roadie. I'm used to stuff just being available. Continental never runs out of tires, Mavic never runs out of rims.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgould View Post
    .
    How different of equipment you need and how 'special' from a 'regular' tyre are we talking here? It's a tyre, no?

    Anyways, what are you talking about, spammer?
    Man, you have this all figured out. Someone should give you a job at Q.

  38. #38
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    +1 - I'm happy to see Surly came out with the Dirt Wizard in 26+ and 29+ sizes. I'll be ordering up a set for my Krampus.
    Man I've been checked out--now I get to imagine what my 907 is going to ride like with some "650b" hoops next summer. I have to say thanks surly since even in fatland with its hyperinflation that's a relatively inexpensive way to completely change the character of your bike. Hope my marge lites don't square em off TOO badly...heh.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chequamagon View Post
    Hey guys -

    I just wanted to add one thing here. I think there is a belief that QBP as a whole is restricting availability, or not doing the best job possible for fat tires.

    This is a difficult market, and with a very special set of equipment. There was an enormous investment in capital just to make the tires, and of course we want to sell as many as we can to recoup that.

    The special machines used to make the tires are running non-stop, and literally making as many possible tires in a given year as they are mechanically able to. We purchase and bring into inventory every possible tire that is available to us, yet demand is still outstripping supply on some models.

    I feel there is a lot of thought here that our buyers are not doing their best - I assure they are, and I just want to make sure that is clear.
    Thanks for the reply. Seriously, that's good stuff to know.

    It's hard when tires appear to sell out a day after they've been released, when it's january and you ripped a sidewall and there's nothing on the shelves anywhere and you're sidelined.

    If I could make a suggestion, a post like this on the Surly website minus the (seriously annoying) surly attitude, as in, just what you wrote here, would probably go a long way in making people feel better about the lack of tires.

    THanks again for answering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post

    Maybe when the 'fad' part of this dies off and people get their heads screwed back on straight it'll start to make more sense. Fatbikes excel when flotation is needed. That's it. When flotation is secondary they are a heavier, costlier alternative to the well-evolved mountain bikes that preceded them. If you want a lighter tire this probably means that you're worried about speed, in which case a true MTB would better suit you. You just wouldn't get nearly as many 'ooo lookit' comments in the parking lot.
    If you are so concerned you should add this to your über-ever-anywhere bike so not to mislead people.

    End of an era--for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post

    It's hard when tires appear to sell out a day after they've been released, when it's january and you ripped a sidewall and there's nothing on the shelves anywhere and you're sidelined.
    I've got at least one spare tire in every size I use that has any chance of not being in stock at my LBS or an online vendor. I also keep at least 1 worn out tire [whatever is in the best shape] for each common wheel size [26er/29er] so that I can deal with a tire failure immediately so I can keep riding while I get some new rubber.

    This is a preventable situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    What are you talking about???

    He's giving actual insight on the process of tire production at QBP.


    Ughhh... this is turning into a 1 step forward, 2 steps back thread.
    Okay, not a spammer. But I am not much enlightened on the process of tyre production.
    Why is the tool so much more expensive than a regular tool for a, lets say 3.2 tyre? And why, if the machine/tooling is outlasted and the demand excels the outcome ('we make as many tyres as we can, nonstop') this is a risk?

    Edit:

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I've got at least one spare tire in every size I use that has any chance of not being in stock at my LBS or an online vendor. I also keep at least 1 worn out tire [whatever is in the best shape] for each common wheel size [26er/29er] so that I can deal with a tire failure immediately so I can keep riding while I get some new rubber.

    This is a preventable situation.
    Easier said than done with $150 tires... But yeah, I get what you are saying. I've got spare tires for all my other bikes and I've got a spare for the pugs now. But again, that's not much of a help when it's january and there's no tires.

    The growing pains in the fatbike market are fun to watch, but they're decidedly less fun to experience.

    If you come from a more... mature product market, it's jarring. And let's face it, almost everyone who buys a fat bike is coming from a more mature market, where they are used to things just being available when you need them.

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    Fatbikes have been "around" for...well, in the neighborhood of 15 years...
    If Huffy made an airplane, would you fly in it?

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    All that said, I really want to see more tires from more manufacturers, more rims from more manufacturers and better availability. I don't think there's anything controversial or "entitled" to that statement.

    THe lack of new tires at interbike tells me that fatbikes are still a fad in the eyes of the market. If it takes the kind of capital expense that Chequamegon mentioned, then it's clear it's not a safe investment yet for the big tire manufacturers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damnitman View Post
    Fatbikes have been "around" for...well, in the neighborhood of 15 years...
    Heard about Fatbikes just a year ago or so. Could have spread the word louder!
    European ignorance, my.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The sense of entitlement around here is getting to be staggering.

    "Held hostage"? Is that your way of being grateful that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with?

    Maybe I'm reading you wrong--written word lacking context and all that?

    I neither want nor see a need for lighter tires. The lightest ones we have now are already throwaway--at least the way people are using them.

    Maybe when the 'fad' part of this dies off and people get their heads screwed back on straight it'll start to make more sense. Fatbikes excel when flotation is needed. That's it. When flotation is secondary they are a heavier, costlier alternative to the well-evolved mountain bikes that preceded them. If you want a lighter tire this probably means that you're worried about speed, in which case a true MTB would better suit you. You just wouldn't get nearly as many 'ooo lookit' comments in the parking lot.

    /rant



    Good thing no one ever used an old clapped out cruiser bike outside of its design parameters or we could have wound up with something like a mountain bike. Just sayin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    THe lack of new tires at interbike tells me that fatbikes are still a fad in the eyes of the market. If it takes the kind of capital expense that Chequamegon mentioned, then it's clear it's not a safe investment yet for the big tire manufacturers.
    Quote Originally Posted by chequamagon View Post
    Hey guys -
    The special machines used to make the tires are running non-stop, and literally making as many possible tires in a given year as they are mechanically able to. We purchase and bring into inventory every possible tire that is available to us, yet demand is still outstripping supply on some models.
    .
    Key words are 'non-stop' and 'demand is (still!?) outstripping supply'

    Where does 'not a safe investment yet' fit in here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgould View Post
    Key words are 'non-stop' and 'demand is (still!?) outstripping supply'

    Where does 'not a safe investment yet' fit in here?
    Ask Schwalbe. THey'd know more than me. But since they aren't jumping in to the fat bike tire market, it's a fair bet that they don't see it as profitable for themselves at this point. Not too many companies will pass up a profitable market just because.

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    With enough investment the shortage would not exist, which one of you want's to pony up the rather large sum of money to get new tires into production? Line forms to the right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgould View Post
    Key words are 'non-stop' and 'demand is (still!?) outstripping supply'

    Where does 'not a safe investment yet' fit in here?
    When you consider that the fatbike tire quantities are a drop of cold piss in the oil tanker that is the world bicycle tire market, it's not "safe" at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgould View Post
    Okay, not a spammer. But I am not much enlightened on the process of tyre production.
    Why is the tool so much more expensive than a regular tool for a, lets say 3.2 tyre? And why, if the machine/tooling is outlasted and the demand excels the outcome ('we make as many tyres as we can, nonstop') this is a risk?

    Edit:
    Production requirements for a small firms are going to be different than a large company. I remember a while back when VW was going through their acquisition frenzy faze. It was revealed at one point that they would need to move one million units a year just to break even. Think about that. Meanwhile a niche manufacturer like Morgan can be profitable selling just a few cars a week, which for them is still running full tilt. Meanwhile the sales figures for Morgan are so small that it wouldn't make financial sense for a company like VW to try and compete with them.
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    ...I'm just guessing, but I would have to bet that the fat showing at IB will help one or two of the "big guys" rethink their hesitance to:
    a) begin producing fat tires
    b) invest in more equipment to ramp-up current production
    If Huffy made an airplane, would you fly in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel View Post
    I like the look of this tire for snow. Anyone know if it will fit on RD rims on a alu Beargrease?
    Salsa still has the specs for the 2013 aluminum Beargrease on their site. I'm still collecting parts for mine. Fork is not a problem but this is what they say about the rear:
    Frame fits 26 x 3.8" tires on 100mm rims, but drivetrain modifications may need to be made
    So, will a 4.7" tire on a Rolling Darryl work with an XX1 drivetrain? I'd like to know the answer to that question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scatterbrained View Post
    Production requirements for a small firms are going to be different than a large company.
    Yes, different economic viability of the project it is.

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    Disturbing trend from Interbike...

    I just don't see what the current crop of tires isn't doing for anyone? Tired of seeing high zoot items no one can afford then don't obsess about building the lightest fat bike. All that says to the manufactures is that you want light weight stuff because our current stuff is to heavy.

    Give us a damn fork already...wait I don't even want it now. Bud Lou on hundies all year round!
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    What about a heavier sidewall?

    All this talk about weight, how about a heavier sidewall than lighter?Here me out here!

    For rock crawling on the coast here on a Surly Moonlander the 120 TPI BFL`s are amazing for grip on the low tide exposed rocks,

    But... to get the most out of the Moonlanders amazing grip and float your looking at 8 PSI and under on BFL`s for on soft sand, shingle, and pebble beaches...

    Problem is to then ride off these types of surfaces onto some rock crawling and now these tyres are too soft and it is easy to pinch flat due to the side wall strenght.
    A look at year old BFL tyres (Euro spelling ) and how worn side walls are with tyre thread makes you think how good say a 140 or 160 tpi would be for a longer lasting tyre.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The sense of entitlement around here is getting to be staggering.

    "Held hostage"? Is that your way of being grateful that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with?

    Maybe I'm reading you wrong--written word lacking context and all that?

    I neither want nor see a need for lighter tires. The lightest ones we have now are already throwaway--at least the way people are using them.

    Maybe when the 'fad' part of this dies off and people get their heads screwed back on straight it'll start to make more sense. Fatbikes excel when flotation is needed. That's it. When flotation is secondary they are a heavier, costlier alternative to the well-evolved mountain bikes that preceded them. If you want a lighter tire this probably means that you're worried about speed, in which case a true MTB would better suit you. You just wouldn't get nearly as many 'ooo lookit' comments in the parking lot.

    /rant
    Risked? Really? Sounds like we ought to be thanking God for Surly in our prayers every day... and Ford, Walmart, Ace Hardware, Cabella's, ... They get our gratitude when we spend $200 on a tire or $2,000 on an entry level quality bike.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to ride a fat bike and wanting it to match the quality of our other available types of bikes. And there is nothing wrong with the comments in the parking lots, street corners, and every other place we ride our fat bikes.

    I've done my 50 miles on the road bike, I ran, now I'm going to do some running around town on my fat bike where the added flotation will be good to have on some of the softer concrete, and then hopefully find some unsuspecting mountain biker in which I can put a hurt on while riding some trails.

  60. #60
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    Just a thought?

    With all the whining and gnashing of teeth about tire prices, and knowing that Surly/45NRTH VeeRubber, etc have recouped a lot of their initial outlay at this point?

    Why would any new manufacturer jump in with both feet?

    Hmm, we, company X, needs to invest several hundred thousand dollars on new moulds, tooling, casing widths, tread design research, testing, etc. The market that exists already, is well served, and wants tires cheaper and lighter and more varied than what's already out there (as a general rule)?

    Let's just say Conti or Schwalbe came out with one, it's going to easily exceed $150, all day long. Assuming that is, that they want to get some sort of payback in any kind of timely fashion in a niche market of this size. They want to get into that market, why?

    If I were they, I wouldn't be bothering either.

    And as for Conti, good stinkin' luck. Love their tires, but those Germans are SO insanely off the back of any trend.

    29ers have been hot for how long, and it's just now that we finally get full representation at the top end of their line in 29ers?

    It'll be 2020 before the get on the fat wagon.....
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    Coastkid71: Set up those BFLs tubeless.

    MendonCycleSmith: So true about Conti. It is ridiculous. We used to run Race King 2.2 Supersonic on our mid range models, but had to change to Geax when 29ers finally became hot last year. Now that 650b is rapidly becoming the king (at least here in Norway), Conti is even further off the back.
    Last edited by Espen W; 09-20-2013 at 06:44 AM.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantic View Post
    Fatbikes are going mainstream, or at least getting mainstream recognition:
    It's a slow process from so called niche to mainstream but the word is buckleup boys n girls.
    "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK"

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    I think fat bikes will run neck n neck with 29ers within a couple of years. There are plenty of reason why. Everyone who see's a fat bike thinks their cool. Not odd, strange or weird but, COOL.

    They are the SUV's of the cycling world and people, love a strong image. Fat bikes, have an awesome adventurous history. Learn it and you will give an interesting story that will make your friends want one.

    Also, be active. If you belong to a cycling group. Try to insist that they hold a fat bike event in the off season.

    That would be spring or summer...just checking. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    I disagree with this and find it slightly insulting......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .............................................. when you get it wrong.
    Schooled, nuff said!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    I don't have to be grateful to QBP- I bought one of their bikes. But when you consider that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with, you might think they'd be interested in recouping some of those costs with better availability.

    If QBP makes 99% of the fatbike tires available, then yes, they hold the market hostage. they've got a captive audience. Folks scream bloody murder at the thought of proprietary standards coming from major manufacturers, but for all intents and purposes, that's what we've got here- one manufacturer makes most of the frames, forks, rims and tires. Until someone else starts making tires, we have to take QBP's word for the fact that they are making the best tires they can at the best price possible.

    I don't want lighter tires, I want tires that are available in January.
    That's an odd way of looking at the problem. I'd guess that QBP/Surly/Salsa sized the production estimates for tires based on THEIR expected needs. If they're guilty of anything, it's that they underestimated the number of other fatbike manufacturers that have sprung up with no tire source of their own. Any anger should be directed at [insert your favorite tire company name here] for not supporting the fat segment of the market. I don't hear the same anger being directed at the other companies producing fat tires or the ones like [insert your favorite tire company name here] who refuse to jump on the bandwagon until it runs them over.

    QBP sells the lion's share of fatbike tires not through any dishonest market manipulation or intellectual property heavy-handedness. They made the investment and they're reaping the rewards. Anyone is free to make a fatbike tire, and several other companies have done so, with mixed results. QBP's market dominance in fat tires is earned. Most of the competitors' tires haven't measured up. Maybe it's not as easy as it looks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    Most of the competitors' tires haven't measured up. Maybe it's not as easy as it looks?
    we're now specing On-One Floaters on our bikes. They work a treat.

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    Re: Disturbing trend from Interbike...

    Gomez just posted on his website that Kenda will be coming out with a fat tire. He will have to post up what he thought of it when he gets on here... no pics from what I read.
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

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    + this from me too! I like a "light" fatbike as well, I ride it year round, and mostly by myself. For me it's just more fun. How can that somehow be wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    I disagree with this and find it slightly insulting. Reducing a bike to a tool to be used just for transportation or racing probably leaves out 70% of the mountain bikers who ride for primarily for some combination of exercise/recreation/fun.

    My higher-end, lighter fatbike is much more enjoyable to ride than my Pugsley, handles better and the components all work better. It's faster, too, and I appreciate that even if I don't race. I ride by myself most of the time, and don't give a crap if anyone looks at me or my bike. I built it up myself, and appreciate the nice parts for their engineering and their aesthetics.

    As far as a fatbike not being the best tool for the "job". F that, my "job" when I'm riding is to have fun. The pseudo-scientific discussions of the pros/cons of skinny vs fat tires are interesting on paper (or on the internet), but don't necessarily carry over into one's riding experience. The implication that anyone who rides a fatbike on anything other than snow or sand is doing it just for the attention is insulting and just plain wrong. Stability, traction and forgiving handling in the dirt are attributes of my fatbike that outweigh any of the downsides (which are rapidly disappearing with each new advancement).

    Psychoanalyzing one person's motivations/intentions is extremely difficult in person, even if you're trained in it. Analyzing a whole group of people over the internet is harder still. Feel free to try it, but expect some pushback when you get it wrong.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    I disagree with this and find it slightly insulting. Reducing a bike to a tool to be used just for transportation or racing probably leaves out 70% of the mountain bikers who ride for primarily for some combination of exercise/recreation/fun.

    My higher-end, lighter fatbike is much more enjoyable to ride than my Pugsley, handles better and the components all work better. It's faster, too, and I appreciate that even if I don't race. I ride by myself most of the time, and don't give a crap if anyone looks at me or my bike. I built it up myself, and appreciate the nice parts for their engineering and their aesthetics.

    As far as a fatbike not being the best tool for the "job". F that, my "job" when I'm riding is to have fun. The pseudo-scientific discussions of the pros/cons of skinny vs fat tires are interesting on paper (or on the internet), but don't necessarily carry over into one's riding experience. The implication that anyone who rides a fatbike on anything other than snow or sand is doing it just for the attention is insulting and just plain wrong. Stability, traction and forgiving handling in the dirt are attributes of my fatbike that outweigh any of the downsides (which are rapidly disappearing with each new advancement).

    Psychoanalyzing one person's motivations/intentions is extremely difficult in person, even if you're trained in it. Analyzing a whole group of people over the internet is harder still. Feel free to try it, but expect some pushback when you get it wrong.
    This! I ride for fun and exercise. I'm fully aware that I could be going faster on one of my skinny tire bikes but when I choose to ride the fat bike I have a Perma-grin!
    "Either way it doesn't really matter, I just got back from a bike ride."
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvn View Post
    when I choose to ride the fat bike I have a Perma-grin!
    Like the Joker?

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    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    Gomez just posted on his website that Kenda will be coming out with a fat tire. He will have to post up what he thought of it when he gets on here... no pics from what I read.
    Yup, they also make the upcoming Ground Control, so they probably realized that it was about time to jump off the fence and get to work on their own branded version as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgould View Post
    Like the Joker?
    Exactly!
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    "Either way it doesn't really matter, I just got back from a bike ride."
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    Re: Disturbing trend from Interbike...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    The sense of entitlement around here is getting to be staggering.

    "Held hostage"? Is that your way of being grateful that they risked hundreds of thousands of dollars on our folly to begin with?

    Maybe I'm reading you wrong--written word lacking context and all that?

    I neither want nor see a need for lighter tires. The lightest ones we have now are already throwaway--at least the way people are using them.

    Maybe when the 'fad' part of this dies off and people get their heads screwed back on straight it'll start to make more sense. Fatbikes excel when flotation is needed. That's it. When flotation is secondary they are a heavier, costlier alternative to the well-evolved mountain bikes that preceded them. If you want a lighter tire this probably means that you're worried about speed, in which case a true MTB would better suit you. You just wouldn't get nearly as many 'ooo lookit' comments in the parking lot.

    /rant
    I really hate that "you should be grateful that they even did blah blah blah" nonsense. QBP is a business. They're not designing fatbikes out of the goodness of their hearts, they're in it to make money. Money that we pay them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ultraspontane View Post
    I really hate that "you should be grateful that they even did blah blah blah" nonsense. QBP is a business. They're not designing fatbikes out of the goodness of their hearts, they're in it to make money. Money that we pay them.

    Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
    Yep. And by paying them you've shown how grateful you are.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmooveP View Post
    Psychoanalyzing one person's motivations/intentions is extremely difficult in person, even if you're trained in it. Analyzing a whole group of people over the internet is harder still. Feel free to try it, but expect some pushback when you get it wrong.
    You're right--I painted with too broad a brush and didn't take the time to re-read it before submitting. Mea Culpa.

    That said, in my neck of the woods 9/10ths of the riders on trail, in summer, on fatbikes, are getting their asses handed to them--by the trail, by their lack of suspension, by poky desert flora, and by their (often far less skilled or fit) riding partners. Riding hardpack dirt trail on a fatbike around here is an exercise in trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Can be done, sure, but makes sense only if you don't own a round peg.

    Just pointing out that when I'm painting in broad strokes it does actually come from lots of personal experience.

    Cheers,

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    Riding hardpack dirt trail on a fatbike around here is an exercise in trying to cram a square peg into a round hole.
    That rings a bell - my local trail networks in summer are often a bit loose and dusty, save for a few destination spots that get concrete hard. I vividly remember my first fat bike ride in the latter conditions and it sucked.

    Even a *thin* coating of dust makes a fat bike feel efficient at cruising speed with no respect to acceleration, suspension etc.
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  78. #78
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    I think it's smart not to be flooding the market with tires right now. We are on the cusp of a ton of new things in biking.

    We still have 26er's, 29er's are in full stride, the 650b is showing big time promise, and the Fat Bike is gaining speed.

    Now that's a lot of choices for the cycling community. Yet I don't see thousands more people riding. Something has to give. Our beloved activity is growing in popularity, but I would not want companies to just flood the market with products, only to go belly up if it didn't sell.

    Give it time, IMO it's gaining speed. Besides....Lighter tires for a Fat Bike?? Why? It's like the Tank of Bikes....goes anywhere....last time I looked Tanks are pretty heavy and pretty awesome....lets just leave awesome alone.
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Diller View Post
    That rings a bell - my local trail networks in summer are often a bit loose and dusty, save for a few destination spots that get concrete hard. I vividly remember my first fat bike ride in the latter conditions and it sucked.

    Even a *thin* coating of dust makes a fat bike feel efficient at cruising speed with no respect to acceleration, suspension etc.
    I'll go so far as to say that there is *never* a (summer) time on my local loops when a fatbike can even approach the speed of a modern mtb, much less equal or exceed it. Get even close to the same speed and you've suddenly ground to a halt with two flat tires, at least one dented rim, and a group of riding friends frurstrated at waiting for you to fix yet another round of fat flats.

    I get that not everyone cares about overall speed when riding--and I count myself among that group. But I don't know *anyone* that'd rather be fixing flats over riding, and getting after it on a fattie 'round here leads immediately to flats.

  80. #80
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    Mikesee,
    I totally respect, understand, and agree with most of what you're saying. I bet I could crush my "times" (not that I keep track of anything anymore) on my 29er with it's currently blown Fox fork or my 29er single speed, but I really have a blast on my fat bike. I know that I must be running higher pressures than many in my tires, because I have yet to pinch flat (oh great, why did I just type that???) with either 70mm rims or 47mm rims. I also have yet to destroy a rim. In fact, last weekend I was on a great ride where 2 friends(one on a Trek 29er and one on a Turner Sultan) flatted 4 times between the 2 of them. I didn't flat once.

    I'm no pro, but I can get after it pretty well. I think that it's pretty much different strokes for different folks. The big tires do provide a noticeable difference over a rigid-forked 29er. But you are right, the overall mass and especially rotational mass of a fat bike do make it much more effort than my other rides. I definitely put extra pressure in my tires for forest roads and pavement, or else the tires will suck the life out of you. I'll admit it, I do like to see how far I can crawl in and out of the pain cave. I just have fun and laugh a bunch on my Fatback and still go pretty fast. At this moment in time I just don't feel like riding my other bikes. My Fatback is seriously my favorite bike. I guess that I just have fun seeing what is possible on the fattie. On a side note, I would love to eventually try out one of those Lenz Fat Moths, especially if Stan's comes out with some tubeless rims for 29+. Would you let me ride with you if I was out your way with a Lenz???(and kept my Fatback in my truck)

  81. #81
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    [QUOTE]That said, in my neck of the woods 9/10ths of the riders on trail, in summer, on fatbikes, are getting their asses handed to them--by the trail, by their lack of suspension, by poky desert flora, and by their (often far less skilled or fit) riding partners. Riding hardpack dirt trail on a fatbike around here is an exercise in trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Can be done, sure, but makes sense only if you don't own a round peg.
    /QUOTE]

    Necks of the woods differ, for sure... I have my 907 set up with a Lefty and a lightish wheelset, and it pretty much smokes on the local singletrack around here (it does favor the downs, but it's a fair climber as well). I'm guilty of flagrant Strava use, but damn is it handy for comparing two different bikes. On any given day I might PR a downhill segment on either my 907 or my FS 100mm 29er, it's a crapshoot. Sometimes I PR climbs on it as well--how I feel on any particular day has more to do with it than which bike I'm on. And I can generally weasel into the top 5, and even have a couple of KOMs on it. Depends where you live I guess...but I don't feel like it ever holds me back on a downhill, rather my personal rev limiter and/or lack of skill holds the bike back.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    getting after it on a fattie 'round here leads immediately to flats.
    Glad then, that 'round here at least, that tubeless has taken care of all that hassle.

    Our " 'round here's" being utterly different from one another and all....

    And no, I won't try to sell you on it, whatsoever!

    I hear what you're getting at, but also hear loud and clear, what those who ride all year on them are saying.

    I also find head scratching, your making it all about speed differentials, when pretty much everyone who rides them year round, could give a rats behind about speed (carbon lusting weight weenie whiners notwithstanding), yourself (when on one), included.

    And yes, at days end, ride what makes you smile, and if the speed demons in the group are such 'tards that your speed chafes them, might be time to find different riding pals.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  83. #83
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    Just realized my last post was miles off original topic--sorry 'bout that! Tires...um...derp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You're right--I painted with too broad a brush and didn't take the time to re-read it before submitting. Mea Culpa.

    That said, in my neck of the woods 9/10ths of the riders on trail, in summer, on fatbikes, are getting their asses handed to them--by the trail, by their lack of suspension, by poky desert flora, and by their (often far less skilled or fit) riding partners. Riding hardpack dirt trail on a fatbike around here is an exercise in trying to cram a square peg into a round hole. Can be done, sure, but makes sense only if you don't own a round peg.

    Just pointing out that when I'm painting in broad strokes it does actually come from lots of personal experience.

    Cheers,

    MC
    No problem, man. In general I'm a logical person, and I embrace most bike technology for what it can do for me out on the trail. (I don't do singlespeeds, for instance. Gears work and I need them.) But I'll admit that part of what makes riding a fatbike fun for me is that I'm amazed at how much it can do without the complexity of suspension. Picking my way through a rock garden on a fatbike is somehow more rewarding to me. On my fatbike I can feel the terrain. On my FS bike I'm isolated from the terrain. I'd equate it to "road feel" in a sports car.

    I think the differences between regular bikes and fatbikes will fade as we see suspension, more "mid-fat" offerings like the Krampus, and regular bikes going fatter. We'll still have heated discussions, though. Look at the ongoing arguments among the 26/27.5/29er crowds. Now those guys are messed up (kidding!).

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'll go so far as to say that there is *never* a (summer) time on my local loops when a fatbike can even approach the speed of a modern mtb, much less equal or exceed it. Get even close to the same speed and you've suddenly ground to a halt with two flat tires, at least one dented rim, and a group of riding friends frurstrated at waiting for you to fix yet another round of fat flats.

    I get that not everyone cares about overall speed when riding--and I count myself among that group. But I don't know *anyone* that'd rather be fixing flats over riding, and getting after it on a fattie 'round here leads immediately to flats.
    A year ago and I would not been able to comprehend a statement like this, but having now moved "just down the street" from Mike, I can completely understand the rationale. In rooty/rocky Virginia, I truly enjoyed my Fat Bike and was riding it 60% of the time over my Banshee Prime. Until moving to GJ-CO, I had no true concept of chunk. In over two months of living and riding in the Grand Valley, I have just one ride on the Fatty...mostly miserable.
    While I'm sure I will still enjoy riding the Fat here occasionally in the dirt, the incredibly different terrain of the area truly lends itself to my FS...IMHO. YMMV


  86. #86
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    ^^^So, bringing it back to Buckfiddy's original post, is there an imaginable tire that would make the fatbike more capable on the the super funk chunk where it gets punk'd? Does it need to be more trials-y? Or...?

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by montana_ben View Post
    super funk chunk where it gets punk'd?
    Dude you can't just stop there.

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  88. #88
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    Love me some Conchords...but I got nuthin. Get Grand Junction Malfunction in there somewhere...

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    I'll go so far as to say that there is *never* a (summer) time on my local loops when a fatbike can even approach the speed of a modern mtb, much less equal or exceed it. Get even close to the same speed and you've suddenly ground to a halt with two flat tires, at least one dented rim, and a group of riding friends frurstrated at waiting for you to fix yet another round of fat flats.

    I get that not everyone cares about overall speed when riding--and I count myself among that group. But I don't know *anyone* that'd rather be fixing flats over riding, and getting after it on a fattie 'round here leads immediately to flats.
    I think this is considerably over stated. Interestingly, just this week, I've had to wait for those riding with me while I was riding the fat bike. Also, both of the other riders flatted while I never had an issue. How are the fat bikes that Mike speaks of denting rims and getting flats? We should compare suspension bikes and rigid bikes as well as just fatties vs. others.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    I think this is considerably over stated. Interestingly, just this week, I've had to wait for those riding with me while I was riding the fat bike. Also, both of the other riders flatted while I never had an issue. How are the fat bikes that Mike speaks of denting rims and getting flats? We should compare suspension bikes and rigid bikes as well as just fatties vs. others.
    I have to wait for people when I'm riding my fat bike. This is because I'm in shape, do lots of core stuff, run, rock climb, etc. Guys that are equally as fit go much faster than me when they are not riding their fatbikes. When I ride my 29er I'm much faster than on my fatbike. In both cases, I wait for riders that are slower and less fit. What does this prove? Not much, but fatbikes are slow. Slow to accelerate, slow to turn (especially at speed), take more muscle to move around, and so on. Otherwise, you're just arguing against physics. If you have a local group of intermediate to expert riders and you yourself are an expert rider, you will have no problem keeping up with the "group", not the ride-leaders though. If you ride by yourself, you won't even notice it, so it's not a huge deal and it doesn't mean you "can't ride" a fat bike, but they aint fast either.

    I'm not sure how the fat tires are more prone to flats, I've done some long epics around 40 miles in rough and chunky terrain with no problems, and I was regularly doing tabletops and other jump features with no problem (with the inevitable botched attempts where you widly overshoot the landing and come down much harder). I've had zero flats actually. Unless someone is running 5psi in the summer, then I could see it, but it's just like the people that run 20psi in their mountain bikes cuz they are running tubeless. Sure you won't flat, but you'll dent a rim and trash a wheel.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  91. #91
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    I sometimes drag some tractor tires behind my fatbike or coat my tires with sticky glue so I'm not always waiting for the skinny tire folk. But I do hang gliding and stuff so you know, I'm pretty much all that and more.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    How are the fat bikes that Mike speaks of denting rims and getting flats?
    I believe Mike's point goes back further in this thread about someone wanting lighter tires. Lighter tires means taking out more rubber. Fat bike tires are already pretty thin, unless someone develops a new method of producing light-weight tires that are really bomb-proof, the current crop for certain types of terrain just cannot hold up to the abuse. Keep making even lighter tires and I fear the rest of us will be in the same boat he is in where fatbikes will really be useless for warm weather riding on trails. There's been a few threads about how a couple of lightweight tires are wearing out fast, which is no surprise to me considering how most of us (including myself) are riding them.

    Going back to when I got my first fatbike in 2007, the only tire choice was the Endomorph, the Spyder, and what was left of Nokian Gazza 3.0's and the Tornels. With Endomorphs my riding was pretty much just snow and easy sandy trails and beaches. I was one of only a handful of people in Michigan even having a fatbike, a lot of people laughed at what I would even use a bike like that for. But once the Larry tire came out, it was a major game changer, now the bike could be controlled in dirt at higher speeds. Afterwards I found more uses for a fatbike.

    Now I use Husker Du's which to me seem to be the edge of the cliff before fat tires finally fall off in how hard we can push a fatbike with higher speed. If tires become wider and even lighter with the current technology, I can only see fatbiking going backwards to when I started with Endoorphs, and then everyone will know what it's like to ride in Mike's neighborhood. In a few XC races I've done locally in the last 12 months I've set three new personal best times compared to using a 29r in previous years. I've also had a couple where the fatbike was seriously the wrong tool for the job - hardpack with steep climbs. There are two local trails I refuse to use a fatbike in a race because it's too obvious it's the wrong tool for the job. For what I do, I have a lot of fun finding out what a fatbike can do outside of it's obvious limits. But again, if tires go even lighter and wider, I'll be stuck again using both of my fatbikes only for snow and sand.

    With Husker Du's and Knards, I do not seem to have treadwear issues some people have reported, but I can no longer use Knards on my Wildfire because over time they stretched to the point of rubbing the frame, and one of my Husker Du's after a year and a half has a bead that appears to have stretched a bit also. Again, going even lighter and wider is not good for me with current technology. My Wildfire now has a heavier Vee 8 on it, but I like the tire, narrow enough to fit and it's not a bad weight and rolls nice. Kudos to Vee Rubber for going in the opposite direction, my old Wildfire needed that, and I'm thinking those riding among sharp rocks will appreciate it too.

    Perhaps someone like Schwalbe could change that - that's the one company I would like to see make a fat tire based on what they are doing with their wider 29r offerings. I use 2.4 Racing Raplhs and 2.2 Knobby Nics which are really well made tires for their weight. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for lighter tires but someone needs to make them stronger/bombproof, as I totally get what Mike is talking about even though we ride in totally different environments.

  93. #93
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    ...all that and probably thorns too...
    If Huffy made an airplane, would you fly in it?

  94. #94
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    Thorns mean nothing. I put a stick through mine and still rode on it all summer. Yes, it leaked a little slime for a while but months later I just changed the tire.
    Last edited by alphazz; 09-22-2013 at 10:03 PM.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphazz View Post
    Thorns mean nothing. I put a stick through mine and still rode on it all summer. Yes, it leaked a little slime for a while but months later I just changed the tire months later.
    Was it months later?
    "Either way it doesn't really matter, I just got back from a bike ride."
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dvn View Post
    Was it months later?
    guess it was months later..LOL
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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckfiddious View Post
    There's been a whole lot of excitement about all the carbon stuff coming to fatbikes. But look a little deeper at the pictures from interbike and you'll notice one sad fact: all the tires are still the same.

    Unless I'm missing something, all the big tire manufacturers are still sitting this one out. No Continental, no michelin, no maxxis, no one. Other than one new tire from Specialized, there's no interest in fat tires from the big boys.

    Perhaps it's easier to make a 450g carbon rim (and charge $5k for a set) then it is to make a lighter fat bike tire. Or perhaps, the tire manufacturers still see fat bikes as a fad.

    Either way, as cool (or meh) as all the stratospherically priced carbon is, it ain't going anywhere without tires. And right now, the fatbike market/community is pretty much held hostage by QBP's purchasing agents, who seem to order tires by the dozens, not by the thousands.
    AFAIK there are still only two factories capable of producing fat bike tires: Innova and Vee Rubber. As of 18 months ago Innova would/could make the tires only for QBP and Tommisea.
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  98. #98
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    A co worker at the shop I wrench at rides his fat bike all year long, and uses his CF road bike when he gets together for road rides with his buddies. He soon was dropping everyone on the hills during those road rides. I'm not planning on winning any races with my Moonlander, but in the 2 short weeks I've been using it, I've had more fun than I ever imagined. And maybe when I sign up for the Iditabike next year, I've be dropping everybody at the next snow drift.

    I just don't take any of this seriously. I'm out to ride and have fun in process, where ever that might take me. Even to the moon.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Balogh View Post
    Perhaps someone like Schwalbe could change that - that's the one company I would like to see make a fat tire based on what they are doing with their wider 29r offerings. I use 2.4 Racing Raplhs and 2.2 Knobby Nics which are really well made tires for their weight. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for lighter tires but someone needs to make them stronger/bombproof, as I totally get what Mike is talking about even though we ride in totally different environments.
    I’m only “big boned” (riding 29+ on a Krampus), but I’ve definitely been struggling with fattish tire issues. I realize that I’m on the bleeding edge of 29+ tire availability, with exactly one tire choice until I can get a Dirt Wizard, but all the circumstances conspire to make it kind of suck… First of all, I love the Krampus. My last three MTBs have been rigid 29ers – and I loved each of them – but the Krampus adds a new level of uphill gripping and downhill ripping that is hard to beat. Until you start shredding your Knards. As I’ve done so many times now that I can’t even count. My tires look like pin cushions with pieces of plugs poking out. Not to mention the patches on the inside.

    The difference (I think) between the 29+ thing and the Fat Bike thing, is that Surly has been selling the 29+ experience as fast, regular, mountain biking, but with bigger tires. “Give it the juice and just hang on” is what they say. And that’s how I’ve been riding the Krampus. I can keep up with most everyone on their standard 29ers (as Surly promised), only I have to stop at least once a ride to plug a tear or pop in a tube because the bead won’t re-seal. Here’s the ongoing saga: Busted a Knard.... Minus the three or four punctures, tears and pinches over the last couple weeks.

    Seeing the challenges that y’all have, I’m not holding my breath for a wonder 29+ tire. I’ll just perfect my trailside plugging/gluing techniques.

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    AFAIK there are still only two factories capable of producing fat bike tires: Innova and Vee Rubber. As of 18 months ago Innova would/could make the tires only for QBP and Tommisea.
    Kenda is making Specialized's Ground Control fat tire and are reportedly making a model of ther own, too.

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